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why post your work at all? - 2/22/2008 7:24:50 PM
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techne
Posts: 562
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i'm curious - why do you post your writing here? i'm never sure when people are simply posting "stuff" or when they want actual responses or critique.
often, even when some people state that they do want responses, i'm not convinced they are truly serious about becoming better writers, judging by their responses to various critiques. though perhaps this is more a matter of maturity or confidence in one's work and ability.
so perhaps this is a better question: do you post examples of your work here in order to get feedback and become a better writer? if so, what do you want input about? if not, why not?
further - if you do want input, critique, responses - what does that look like to you? what are you expecting or hoping for? what do you think critique should look like?
(just curious)
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: why post your work at all? - 2/22/2008 8:29:03 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1337
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I really don't post stuff here, but did for a while post on Absolutewrite.com's BB. There some wonderful and talented writers gave me insight into my work, pointing out my weaknesses and strengths. I don't know what I'd do without those folks. I miss them very much and will include them in my author's notes in my book, once it's published. My work improved b/c of them.
kim
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RE: why post your work at all? - 2/24/2008 8:24:36 AM
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hvt
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Greetings techne,
You have posed some interesting questions. I will answer as best I can. My hope is that what I post might prove to be more than just “stuff,” and actually be a blessing to another. I’ve been writing for a lot of years now, mainly as a release for myself. When I became acquainted with computering a couple of years back, I saw an opportunity to do something with these writings rather than keeping them hidden in a box.
Now, as far as people responding, of course I enjoy that. Who doesn’t like to be recognized? Though I have no aspirations to publish what I have written, apart from my posting in the forums, I do welcome critical comments. That doesn’t mean I will immediately rewrite something, but I’ll certainly think about what is said. Not having any formal education in writing does leave me at somewhat of a disadvantage, so when people offer critique, I look for how I can improve my abilities.
What am I expecting in response, input and critique? Honesty and kindness. I’m not afraid to be told that something may need polishing, so I look at suggestions presented in that manner as a positive.
I liked Dancre’s remark: “My work improved b/c of them.” That is my hope. Also your C.S. Lewis quote is quite challenging. There is a lot to be said for getting ourselves out of the way. I’m thankful for the reminder.
God bless you.
hvt
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RE: why post your work at all? - 2/24/2008 6:52:47 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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I post to share about Jesus; that people would come to know Him 
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RE: why post your work at all? - 2/24/2008 9:56:11 PM
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DenimDiva
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I posted a few things here under the name of Hischild1994. I really wanted critque, etc., but didn't get much of it. I would've liked to have gotten more.
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RE: why post your work at all? - 2/25/2008 7:40:39 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1337
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
B) The second group--let's be brutally honest here--posts their works to hear accolades and huzzahs. "You wrote this? It's brilliant!" Unfortunately these people usually are ripe for agent/publishing scams; when their wallets are thoroughly vacuumed clean, they can't fathom how it happened. It comes back to one word: hubris.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Probably wrong, but darned entertaining! 
LOL!! Especially when they say, show me your credentials!! How long have you been writing? What have you wrote, blah, blah, blah!! LOL!! It can be amusing. :) I was almost taken in by an Agency, now been shut down by the FBI for scamming. They told me my story was 'wonderful'. Yeah, right! Thank God for all those other agents who said no thanks. Made me work harder.
ONe thing I've learned about taking criticism is if the opinion makes you say, I should have seen that one!! Or Oh, man! Why did I miss that one? I usually don't take the old I don't agree with that philosophy, denomination, name (I actually had someone tell me to change the name of my character.), or it's not their writing style, so it's all wrong nonsense.
If they person tells you HOW to fix something, use different place, different race, different whatever they are probably wrong. If they tell you something's just not right, but don't give details, then they are probably right. Also if more than 2 people tell me the same problem in the story, then I know I'm in trouble. :( If one person says something positive about something and another says a negative thing about the same thing, I'll take the positive and not worry about the negative. MOre than likely, it's a personal call. :)
kim
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RE: why post your work at all? - 2/25/2008 11:28:27 PM
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techne
Posts: 562
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
It comes back to one word: hubris.
or ignorance...blissfully unaware ignorance
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: why post your work at all? - 5/26/2008 12:23:27 PM
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techne
Posts: 562
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interestingly, this is the blurb for the forum:
You've always known you have a gift for writing, and you want to learn how to apply it. Post your own original work for critique or share insights with other writers who share your call.
hmm...
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: why post your work at all? - 5/29/2008 10:27:18 AM
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Ganheim
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When I post anywhere, it's generally for one reason: to get additional feedback so I can improve the writing (it in specific and mine in general). Sometimes I'll also post because I've run into writer's block and can't figure out how to break free and move forward, but something about other people stopping to post their opinions (even if they don't necessarily give constructive criticism) helps me keep going.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
If they person tells you HOW to fix something, use different place, different race, different whatever they are probably wrong. If they tell you something's just not right, but don't give details, then they are probably right. Also if more than 2 people tell me the same problem in the story, then I know I'm in trouble.
I would have to disagree with that - often, writers (particularly beginning) don't know what they're doing wrong. I like specifically pointing out what's weak or flawed and recommending a way to make it better.
I'm active on a few other sites, and one of the one I've left particularly long reviews is Fan Fiction.net (it's good writing practice). Anyway, I've left some very long reviews telling people not only areas where punctuation is lacking but also sometimes where the narrative is weak or run-ons cripple an action scene or what-have-you. Most of the authors didn't even know the weakness was there, and the majority thanked me for the attention and advice.
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Writer on Fiction Press, Fan Fiction, Deviant Art.
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RE: why post your work at all? - 5/30/2008 4:52:54 PM
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4IMPersuaded
Posts: 424
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Hi, all.. I've been away for a bit, but I thought I'd check back in. Please allow me to add an additional reason to post here. Community. As I have mentioned before, my primary career is very social, but writing is very solitary. It is has been invaluable to me to read the posts of others on this site when they discuss their experience in the writing world. Dancre and others have discussed their experience with publishers and being new to this calling, I would have been one that would easily be taken in by unscrupulous scammers. I had no real idea of how that aspect is supposed to work. I am grateful for their posts.
Honestly, those post and sustain threads by themselves do not really interest me. I'm not criticizing, that's just not why I come to this forum. God bless them for their diligence, but those who are looking to share their struggles and experiences are the ones that I read. I am not a fiction writer, so the RPGs aren't for me, either, though I recognize their value. I come here for the non-fiction, real-life stuff-- from writers who have "been there" or who ARE there, struggling in whatever way they are struggling and willing to share.
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RE: why post your work at all? - 5/31/2008 2:11:14 PM
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IonMoon
Posts: 977
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Well... I actually don't post my writing! I have found that most publishers consider anything posted on public sites on the net "published" and since they only want unpublished work... Probably can get around this with drafts, etc., but personally I think it is safer to abstain.
I have a group of people IRL who I have proof-read for me who can do so objectively. I think this is essential, and I know a lot of people don't have this IRL.
I visit the folder primarily because of the discussions about writing and publishing. I also like to read & give feedback to others.
Tara P
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RE: why post your work at all? - 6/14/2008 11:08:49 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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This is an excellent topic. I'm usually reluctant to respond to someone's writing b'c often, it seems, they're not really looking for critiquing, but acceptance or compliments. I've seen some awful writing get high praise which always leaves me to wonder, is the one praising trying to boost the confidence of the would-be writer? Or are they just unfamiliiar with good writing? If you want to boost a writer's confidence, don't lie to him when his work leaves something to be desired. Be honest--tactful--but honest. If he's legitimately an aspiring writer he'll be able to accept sincere and qualified critiquing.
< Message edited by Cross_Eyed_4_Life -- 6/14/2008 11:14:56 PM >
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Looking to buy1991 Won by One (out of) print by Argus Communications (see avatar) Leave PM here
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RE: why post your work at all? - 6/29/2008 4:41:38 AM
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whisper
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Throw me down for group A.5 (or A/B or AB Rh+ or whatever you would like to call it).
I desire true feedback, good and bad to hone my work and help me to be critically constructive in my own writing.
I also sometimes post with the thought in my mind being "This is pretty good . . . . right?" and seeing if I stand out. Those days are far fewer but I certainly won't deny that they exist. I still openly accept feedback, and am honestly grateful for the blessings and the criticisms, but I secretly want the "leave it alone. It's perfect - and I would know; check out my cred'."
'Tis a fallen world we live in, folks, and I'm a sinful human being.
< Message edited by whisper -- 6/29/2008 4:48:12 AM >
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You can't make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your bum. And who wants to make bumprints in the sands of time?
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RE: why post your work at all? - 6/29/2008 5:25:54 PM
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techne
Posts: 562
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so how does one identify whether someone is serious about the craft of writing?
do we hold back unless the poster asks for critique? even then, it seems that many don't realize what that actually means. conversely, many don't seem to have a real grasp on what critique involves.
so perhaps another question to explore (though i have posted on this topic before) is:
what exactly is "critique"? what does it involve?
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: why post your work at all? - 6/29/2008 6:07:53 PM
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1love1God1way
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I post my works HERE.
I am always open to critique, however, since my methods are. . . unconventional. . . few people have ever tried to offer suggestions on how to make it better.
Ultimately, I just want to share. I don't care if I get "hurrays", although they are nice.
I don't consider myself good, but I do consider myself unique, and I love to be able to give my work to others to see.
I hope it makes them feel. To dream. To be inspired. To think. To learn.
To know me. To know my thoughts and heart, from my heights to my depths, pain and love.
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love.ben
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RE: why post your work at all? - 6/29/2008 11:09:48 PM
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Dancre
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willfs
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
I think the reason people post snippets of their work online falls into two camps.
A) Like Kim alluded to, the first group sincerely desires feedback, so they can be better craftsmen (or women); they truly wish to serve the Lord better.
B) The second group--let's be brutally honest here--posts their works to hear accolades and huzzahs. "You wrote this? It's brilliant!" Unfortunately these people usually are ripe for agent/publishing scams; when their wallets are thoroughly vacuumed clean, they can't fathom how it happened. It comes back to one word: hubris.
Could it be both. I mean could someone post hoping to better understand if their work is as brilliant as they think. They also want to know to what extent they should keep trying. If they have enough talent to keep posting. If they should keep going, what do they need to work on. They may post imagining they will get a "That's awesome for a newbie." That's not nessesarily a wrong dream to have. As long as they keep in mind that they might not get that and may get plenty of negative, but much needed, feedback.
What I've discovered over the years of writing is you can't have both. You either have the "I'm so brilliant, can't you see it?" Or those who want to be a better writer. No, it's not bad to want to be a brilliant writer, it's when pride gets in the way of common sense and the newbie refuses to hear the truth about their writing and thus become better. I figure those with the pride problem won't go beyond the boundaries of the internet. It's sad, but true.
kim
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RE: why post your work at all? - 6/29/2008 11:18:24 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1337
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quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
so how does one identify whether someone is serious about the craft of writing?
The best way to identify them is their answers to others. If someone asks for help, then says, thanks, I see what you are saying. Those are the ones that I know will become my competion one day. Those who argue their point, I ignore.
do we hold back unless the poster asks for critique? even then, it seems that many don't realize what that actually means. conversely, many don't seem to have a real grasp on what critique involves.
I've learned to only give advice when it's asked. Some want advice, some don't.
so perhaps another question to explore (though i have posted on this topic before) is:
what exactly is "critique"? what does it involve?
A good example of a critique is one in which the critiquer focuses mostly on technique, not opinions. For example, I may say of your story, you should make the hero muscular with long flowing hair. Or change the man's name to Blake, or something like that. Those are just my opinions. My opinions don't count b/c I don't know where you are going with your story.
But Technique does count. I've learned publishers don't have time to fix your technique problems, so you better know it. And they do look for it. Trust me, I have the rejection letters to prove it. (that is unless you are Brittany Spears or Nichole richey.  Then you can write garbage and the publishers will love it.) And what's worse, the publisher will not tell you why they are rejecting the story, it's just, not for us, period. Also, give the critique a day or so, go over it, see if it 'sits' well with you. If not, then reject it. I knew a guy who always gave me the best critiques ever. He would raise the bar each time, pushing me past my own limits. I hated his critiques, but they made me into a better writer.
kim
< Message edited by Dancre -- 6/29/2008 11:30:18 PM >
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RE: why post your work at all? - 7/4/2008 2:18:37 AM
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willfs
Posts: 272
Joined: 12/28/2007
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What do you mean by technique?
No opinions? So that's why the last crit I did, which was about things I thought were unrealistic, was met by a point by point rebuttal by the person who posted their work?
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RE: why post your work at all? - 7/4/2008 6:44:36 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1337
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willfs
What do you mean by technique?
No opinions? So that's why the last crit I did, which was about things I thought were unrealistic, was met by a point by point rebuttal by the person who posted their work?
Ok, Technique: Are you showing the scene or are you telling the scene? Are you using realistic Dialogue or is it forced? Are the characters more goody-two-shoes or are they realistic? Is the plot a snooze-ville or interesting? Stuff like that. It sounds like you gave some good advice to the writer. A story not being realistic is very, very important and should be at least considered, not toss aside. I personally don't think that's an opinion, but revolves around the plot. Don't let that writer get to you. That writer should have asked you questions, like what about the plot do you see as unrealistic? What would make it realistic in your opinion? Stuff like that. Honestly, that could have been a breakthrough for him, taking him from the internet to the bookstores. If he didn't agree, then he could have thanked you for it and moved on and not fight for the story. Oh well.
As for Opinions: Everyone here on this board writes differently, sort of like a fingerprint. you have your own writing voice, just as I have mine. Sometimes, as writers, we think our voice is the best and everyone should write that way, instead of that writer using his/her own voice. (I've seen LOTS of writers who force their voice on others.)
Or someone might bring their own personal objections into the story, for instance, in my novel, my heroine is just a normal girl with normal problems. BUT my friend read my story and she didn't like the fact my character was acting vunerable. She doesn't like vunerability b/c she, personally, wants to always be strong, never showing 'weakness'. My story made her wiggle, so she called me on it. (I didn't change the character).
My step-mother wants the names of the characters to be plain English names: Tom, Dick, Harry, Sally. She doesn't like foreign names. OI!!!
So it does depend upon why the person is giving the crit. Are they giving it b/c they personally don't agree with the plot or b/c it IS unrealitic? (Of course, I'm not saying that your critique was a personal opinion. Only you can make that decision. I'm just using this as an example. ) Does the critiquer not like the character's name or think all women should be like Zena, princess warrior and not like normal women b/c men have hurt her all of her life and she wants to be Zena? Does the critiquer not agree with pre-marital relationships? Personal opinions. Does that make sense? (Someone once told me I should only write stories about Jesus.)
As for the rebuttal, sometimes writers don't like criticism b/c they take it personally. They see you as not criticising the story and trying to make it a better read, but attacking the writer himself saying: You're a moron. Why are you are writing? which isn't true. He sees it as an attack on him and his creation. Any writer who attacks you for pointing out flaws doesn't deserve your time or your effort. You were honest in your review and that's ok. A writer should give at least 3 days of consideration before making any changes. One writer once told me if after reading the crit. you think: Oi!! I should have seen that!!! Then change it. But if the crit just doesn't do anything for you or jumps out at you, then don't change it. Just thank the critiquer and go on. Go by your gut instinct.
kim
< Message edited by Dancre -- 7/4/2008 6:53:50 PM >
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RE: why post your work at all? - 7/12/2008 8:01:27 PM
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Ganheim
Posts: 115
Joined: 4/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
Ok, Technique: Are you using realistic Dialogue or is it forced? Are the characters more goody-two-shoes or are they realistic? Is the plot a snooze-ville or interesting? Stuff like that.
Those all sound mostly opinion to me. There's a point where dialog is obviously forced, but outside of that one person may love it and another may hate it - for example some readers adore Isaac Asimov for his minimal action and narrative, and others hate him because "nothing ever happens but people talking".
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
What would make it realistic in your opinion?
That's an opinion, unfortunately - you're never going to get one story that everybody considers good and realistic.
There's a degree of technique in any of the discrepancies between what we see and what we want, but sometimes there's a lot of opinion. As already stated several times, why the criticism was given (and how it's interpreted) can be as important as any possible flaws or discrepancies. I'll agree with the above that a good author will take all the good possible (even from a bad review), that's what makes a good author rise above the rest.
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Writer on Fiction Press, Fan Fiction, Deviant Art.
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RE: why post your work at all? - 7/12/2008 9:41:37 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1337
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ORIGINAL: Ganheim
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
Ok, Technique: Are you using realistic Dialogue or is it forced? Are the characters more goody-two-shoes or are they realistic? Is the plot a snooze-ville or interesting? Stuff like that.
Those all sound mostly opinion to me. There's a point where dialog is obviously forced, but outside of that one person may love it and another may hate it - for example some readers adore Isaac Asimov for his minimal action and narrative, and others hate him because "nothing ever happens but people talking".
Well, actually, no. There is a technique to dialogue, to make it 'human', like a normal conversation, not boring, dull, stuff like that. You'd be surprised at how many can't write dialogue. It fact, there are books written just on the subject of Dialogue. Dialogue isn't not an opinion, it's writing well. It's a very big difference. If the dialogue is boring, stiff, etc, who's going to want to read it? But you can use the narrative to pick up where you lack in dialogue and in the same way, you can use dialogue to pick up the narrative. You can use the dialogue to create any scene you want, but again, you have know how to do it. It's best to relay info in the dialogue instead of paragraph after paragraph of just info dumping. You can create suspense, love, hate, etc just with dialogue, but you'd be surprised as to how many can't do it. So you have to learn to do it.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre
What would make it realistic in your opinion?
That's an opinion, unfortunately - you're never going to get one story that everybody considers good and realistic.
Well, actually, you took my quote out of context. What I said was:
That writer should have asked you questions, like what about the plot do you see as unrealistic? What would make it realistic in your opinion?
If you read the rest of that paragraph, I was addressing the poster who was upset b/c someone got upset over his critic. I was saying, the writer should have addressed the unrealistic problem instead of getting upset. ask questions, don't get mad. It has nothing to do with opinions, just looking at the story from another angle. It could just be that the person doesn't like the story, or it could really be unrealistic. It's not a good chance to take and one I advice no one to take.
quote:
There's a degree of technique in any of the discrepancies between what we see and what we want, but sometimes there's a lot of opinion. As already stated several times, why the criticism was given (and how it's interpreted) can be as important as any possible flaws or discrepancies. I'll agree with the above that a good author will take all the good possible (even from a bad review), that's what makes a good author rise above the rest.
quote:
Tho
I will agree that Criticism can come in the form opinions, and it does. But the question was, how do I, personally, form criticisms and I said, I look for techniques b/c I've learned with almost 35 rejections under my belt and talking to the publishers themselves that they DO look at technique. A person who doesn't know how to create minor, and yeah, I mean minor, characters and give them life is considered an amature, someone who can't form proper dialogue is looked over. Someone who tells the scene with no background, dull characters, and a sad story will get the happy little rejection letter. Boring dialogue gets the rejection. That's what I stand by b/c I've had to learn the hard way. And publishers won't tell you want you are doing wrong. Again, it's tough enough to get published, but if one doesn't know how to write well, then they'll never get past the internet. Trust me, I've got the horrible experiences under my belt. That's why I follow Technique in my criticisms and I always will, but that's just me.
But for others who may not know technique, opinions are important, but take them from a readers POV, not the way you personally write. Thanks.
kim
< Message edited by Dancre -- 7/12/2008 10:18:01 PM >
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). I've been writing professionally for nearly ten years, and I think the reason people post snippets of their work online falls into two camps. 
