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the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/23/2009 1:14:18 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
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Rather than sidetrack another thread this is a point that might be in contention for more than a few pages. Christ had a talk with the Apostles that gave them information about certain things that where given to OT Prophets that referenced an event called the Day of the Lord. That is at least 1 page lol. The next factor that should be considered is authority. After the return with power and glory (the ability vanquish enemies and the ability to heal those He holds dear) Another factor I would argue as being even more important to the entire theme of the way the OT went was because of Christ. NT Scripture will verify that what Jesus did was only what God had shown Him.
Joh:5:30:
I can of mine own self do nothing:
as I hear,
I judge:
and my judgment is just;
because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.
That includes the good and the not so good (like Sodom). All the things God did in the Nt will be done again at some point once the day of the Lord starts as dictated by the prophecies that deal with the day the 7th trump sounds.
Heaven is a place that has New Jerusalem in it.
Re:21:2:
And I John saw the holy city,
new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Test question, from where does New Jerusalem descend from?
M't:6:9:
After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Our prayers end up on the alter before God's throne, true or false?
New Jerusalem cannot exist for us until the old earth and heavens are gone, New Jerusalem is the mansion talked about being that the ones it was said to will be permanent residents of New Jerusalem. That is their home, that is the room that is being prepared for believers in Christ
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Wayne, my brother, you are forgetting that, in the Messiah, the middle wall of partition is broken down between Jews and Gentiles (non-Jews). We become ONE family in Him. We are ALL "kings and priests" unto Him. I do NOT expect to be separated in any way from the saints who have gone before us. I wouldn't want to be separated from David or Solomon or Jacob or Joseph or Jonathan or.... I mean, c'mon! Are we to be treated somehow more special than these loved ones?! This whole scenario is just ludicrous! And, PLEASE get rid of the "bootcamp" mentality! This is going to be FUN! We GET to serve YAH! We don't HAVE to serve Him! It's looking at the future through the "wrong end of the telescope!"
Actually are not Jews the ones from the tribe of Judea? Not really one of the 'original tribes' that have an inheritance` coming?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Okay, Wayne. Say it with me now: "Heaven" means "sky." Now, repeat it 100 times, out loud! .
The sky is the beginning of Heaven, we have no idea where the end of Heaven is. We will certainly never get to the end without God's help.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Now, let's substitute that word for the other, and while we're at it, let's replace "earth" with "land":
Let's not and say we did. I prefer to see our home as being this place, one verse and the whole concept is laid bare.
Proverb:8:31:
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Even the Apostles rest after life leaves their bodies, the next thing they are aware of is coming alive again, no realization of the passage of 'time'. That concept is also laid bare by just one verse.
Psalms:146:4:
His breath goeth forth,
he returneth to his earth;
in that very day his thoughts perish.
When Jesus died He went to the grave, He did not ascend to God until the day of His resurrection.
Joh:20:17:
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.
For the time He was in the grave that is where the Kingdom of God also went, the OT saints that were also resurrected would have been aware of Jesus coming to the grave. A person cannot be asleep and also hear the Gospel being preached.
1Pe:4:6:
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.
Now if you want to preach to me with any hope of convincing me of anything the above is the method you are going to have to take. Condescending remarks (you are not my teacher, Christ is) will be overlooked.... unless it is a new one and a really good one. lol
Let 's keep in mind that this is God's work, what truth needs is God saying the same thing again in a slightly different viewpoint. It is called reinforcing an important point. Th.e more separate times it is mentioned the cleared the final picture is, adding the prophecies from the OT to what time-frame Revelation covers and it really is a very detailed picture. Nothing about the day of the Lord has yet been fulfilled.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Furthermore, context, context, CONTEXT! The passage in Isaiah is a prophecy against "Rahab" or the "Proud one," Egypt! Notice the verses ahead of verse 6 and those that follow:
Isa 51:1-11
1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
3 For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
KJV
No problem with that being the 12 Tribes, the point you might be missing is these later verses. They would have to occur before the 'everlasting joy could occur'.
Isa:51:17:
Awake,
awake,
stand up,
O Jerusalem,
which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury;
thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling,
and wrung them out.
Isa:51:18:
There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth;
neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up.
Isa:51:19:
These two things are come unto thee;
who shall be sorry for thee?
desolation,
and destruction,
and the famine,
and the sword:
by whom shall I comfort thee?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Where do we read about "the sea drying up and God making the depths of the sea a path for the ransomed (the bought-back ones) to pass over?" Wasn't that the scene when the children of Isra'el left Egypt?
Try Revelation, at Christ's arrival the sea become like the blood of a dead man. that is solid. not liquid, it can be walked on. Are you reeferencing the verses about being able to walk across a river by walking on the bottom and being under water is not a burden on you?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Just for your information, Wayne, the "mount Sion" is the same as in the above verses "mount Zion" or transliterated from Hebrew a little more correctly, "Mount Tsiown." It is that mountain range upon which Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) currently sits, thus dictating the coordinates. Furthermore, since we are talking about the "heavenly (epouranios) Yerushalayim," or the Yerushalayim from above the sky, then we ARE talking about the New Jerusalem BEING the NEW Mount Tsiown. After all, it IS a city 1500 miles high! That's 273 times higher than Mount Everest! However, these are scenes from the New Earth and its New Sky, not "Heaven!"
These are two places, Jerusalem during the 1,000 years and New Jerusalem that comes after all wrath and death are complete. A city meant for healing is not going to see Satan come against it.
The OT can be divided into which is being addressed by the context of the passage. That includes two yet to be covenants, one for the 1,000 and one God makes with 'the rest' at Judgment Day. That is how wonderfully detailed God's word is.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/28/2009 5:32:21 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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quote: ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger - Actually are not Jews the ones from the tribe of Judea? Not really one of the 'original tribes' that have an inheritance` coming?
Let us remember that the Jews are a Chosen People – chosen by God for God – so though Jews are indeed a physical people in a physical location, Jews are also a spiritual people destined for a spiritual location. In both the Old and the New Covenants, Jews are those called “out from among the nations to serve God and Him alone”. I am a Jew of Ashkenazi descent, but I am also a spiritual Jew – saved, sealed and consecrated to Almighty God. Yeshua settled the question once and for all when he said His family is those that hear and obey His Father, God.
quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter - Say it with me now: "Heaven" means "sky." Now, repeat it 100 times, out loud!
We do not know where heaven is located … we only know that it is “up there somewhere”. The Cosmos is infinite and heaven isn’t in our Galaxy (yet :-) ) Our sky is limited – wherever heaven is, is not. All we know is that it exists and that we will be there with Yeshua before we reign with Him here on earth and in the New Jerusalem.
quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter - Where do we read about "the sea drying up and God making the depths of the sea a path for the ransomed (the bought-back ones) to pass over?" Wasn't that the scene when the children of Isra'el left Egypt?
Messianic Prophecies of the restoration of Israel during Church Era (Isaiah 11:15, 16) – “And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with His mighty wind shall he shake His hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came out f the land of Egypt.
”
Revelation 16:12 – “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.”
~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/28/2009 7:40:55 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Let us remember that the Jews are a Chosen People – chosen by God for God – so though Jews are indeed a physical people in a physical location, Jews are also a spiritual people destined for a spiritual location. In both the Old and the New Covenants, Jews are those called “out from among the nations to serve God and Him alone”. I am a Jew of Ashkenazi descent, but I am also a spiritual Jew – saved, sealed and consecrated to Almighty God. Yeshua settled the question once and for all when he said His family is those that hear and obey His Father, God.
I didn't forget that, but twice in the past God has also turned His back on them, once with Neb and again with the Romans. The covenant we are all under right now is the one Jesus made at the last supper, two things to do in remembrance of Him. The next one is made the Day of His return, it is made with those who will be alive for the 1,000 years. All of Israel and the remnant of the Nations (Church).
Gentiles were made clean after the cross. Here is one, there are others.
Ac:10:28:
And he said unto them,
Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company,
or come unto one of another nation;
but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Christians obey Christ, nobody gets to God except by having Christ speak for you first. Here is a verse by God that is to be obeyed.
Lu:9:35:
And there came a voice out of the cloud,
saying,
This is my beloved Son:
hear him.
The judgment that goes with this verse is for Gentiles.
1Pe:4:16:
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian,
let him not be ashamed;
but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe:4:17:
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
This group are from the Nations.
Re:15:2:
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:
and them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
and over his image,
and over his mark,
and over the number of his name,
stand on the sea of glass,
having the harps of God.
Re:15:3:
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God,
and the song of the Lamb,
saying,
Great and marvellous are thy works,
Lord God Almighty;
just and true are thy ways,
thou King of saints.
Re:15:4:
Who shall not fear thee,
O Lord,
and glorify thy name?
for thou only art holy:
for all nations shall come and worship before thee;
for thy judgments are made manifest.
Have faith in God
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/28/2009 10:36:58 PM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
Christians obey Christ, nobody gets to God except by having Christ speak for you first. Here is a verse by God that is to be obeyed.
Have faith in God
I am a Messianic Believer (I worship with Jew and Gentile Believers): I believe Yeshua is the Son of Almighty God - sent by Father God to redeem mankind; to the Jew first, then to the Gentile/Wondrously conceived and born of a Virgin/Sacrificed Himself at Calvary to set the captives free and redeem the waiting - was dead three days and rose again to Ascend to the right hand of the Father, where He waits until the appointed time to fulfill all the promises of God concerning the New Jerusalem. I believe that Yeshua is the perfect Lamb of God - I have been purchased by His shed blood. God never turned His back on the Jews. Ever. It is through the Jews that God sent His Holy Son to bring all mankind to the knowledge of God. I do have faith ... absolute faith in God. Yeshua cannot speak for anyone unless they acknowledge God first, and accept His salvation. The New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant; both are the same! The Last Supper is the Passover Seder of the Jews; Yeshua was a Jew - He obeyed God in the Jewish Festivals. The Last Supper is very Jewish (Passover), which is why Yeshua is called the Passover Lamb. He IS the PERFECT SACRIFICE. Praise God! All who accept Yeshua as Lord and Savior are made clean by His shed blood. Yeshua obeyed God, and Messianic Believers obey Yeshua: we do not follow the law, we follow grace which Yeshua came to give, and the Apostles wrote about in their Epistles. The Apostles were Jewish and they served a Jewish Savior - born a Jew, lived a Jew, and built a Jewish Church on pure stock whereby the Gentile rootstock was grafted into. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews ... there is absolutely no Scriptural references to back Replacement theology up.
~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/29/2009 7:41:00 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
quote:
Christians obey Christ, nobody gets to God except by having Christ speak for you first. Here is a verse by God that is to be obeyed.
Have faith in God
I am a Messianic Believer (I worship with Jew and Gentile Believers): I believe Yeshua is the Son of Almighty God - sent by Father God to redeem mankind; to the Jew first, then to the Gentile/Wondrously conceived and born of a Virgin/Sacrificed Himself at Calvary to set the captives free and redeem the waiting - was dead three days and rose again to Ascend to the right hand of the Father, where He waits until the appointed time to fulfill all the promises of God concerning the New Jerusalem. I believe that Yeshua is the perfect Lamb of God - I have been purchased by His shed blood. God never turned His back on the Jews. Ever. It is through the Jews that God sent His Holy Son to bring all mankind to the knowledge of God. I do have faith ... absolute faith in God. Yeshua cannot speak for anyone unless they acknowledge God first, and accept His salvation. The New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant; both are the same! The Last Supper is the Passover Seder of the Jews; Yeshua was a Jew - He obeyed God in the Jewish Festivals. The Last Supper is very Jewish (Passover), which is why Yeshua is called the Passover Lamb. He IS the PERFECT SACRIFICE. Praise God! All who accept Yeshua as Lord and Savior are made clean by His shed blood. Yeshua obeyed God, and Messianic Believers obey Yeshua: we do not follow the law, we follow grace which Yeshua came to give, and the Apostles wrote about in their Epistles. The Apostles were Jewish and they served a Jewish Savior - born a Jew, lived a Jew, and built a Jewish Church on pure stock whereby the Gentile rootstock was grafted into. The Gentiles do not replace the Jews ... there is absolutely no Scriptural references to back Replacement theology up.
~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/
As part of my belief both Jew and Gentile get relief from God at the very same time. The arrival of Christ as described in both the Old and New Testaments.
Israel at one time was abandoned by God. Neb was God's solution to their wayward ways. It was in Jeremiah 25 that the upcoming events were propheciesd. The release from being in exile was not totally lifted, just enough was returned to them so Jesus could be born into the right society. Basically the ones God called His People who had worship and a temple. Power over the land was not a requiremnet for Jesus to fulfill the things He did fulfill. That some Jews are in blindness about who Jesus was is a sign that Jesus has not yet returned.
There was a new Law evoked by the death on the cross. The Gospel was given to the Gentiles a few years later. The last time the Christian message was give in the Temple was when Stephen was killed.
'Replacement theology'? Does that include the ones referenced as beinf 2/3 and 1/3 as being the Church compared to all of the Gentiles alive at the time those verses manifest themselves? Would that include Isa:65 as mentioning the ones called 'the rest' in Re:20 are the alive and living outside New Jerusalem?
< Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger -- 10/29/2009 7:47:24 PM >
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/30/2009 5:40:38 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
As part of my belief both Jew and Gentile get relief from God at the very same time. The arrival of Christ as described in both the Old and New Testaments.
Israel at one time was abandoned by God. Neb was God's solution to their wayward ways. It was in Jeremiah 25 that the upcoming events were propheciesd. The release from being in exile was not totally lifted, just enough was returned to them so Jesus could be born into the right society. Basically the ones God called His People who had worship and a temple. Power over the land was not a requiremnet for Jesus to fulfill the things He did fulfill. That some Jews are in blindness about who Jesus was is a sign that Jesus has not yet returned.
There was a new Law evoked by the death on the cross. The Gospel was given to the Gentiles a few years later. The last time the Christian message was give in the Temple was when Stephen was killed.
'Replacement theology'? Does that include the ones referenced as beinf 2/3 and 1/3 as being the Church compared to all of the Gentiles alive at the time those verses manifest themselves? Would that include Isa:65 as mentioning the ones called 'the rest' in Re:20 are the alive and living outside New Jerusalem?
Salvation is open to all who heed the call of God, forsake sinful lifestyles and follow Yeshua. Yeshua was prophesied in the Old Covenant and lived among mankind (Jew and Gentile) in the New Covenant (and He is among us now in Spirit); the Gospels tells us what the Apostles knew of Yeshua and how to live Godly lives until Yeshua returns for us. The Revelation tells us what is to happen upon the face of the earth during the End of Days as well as the establishment of the new Jerusalem where Yeshua will reign; it also tells us of our eternal life with God.
Israel was never abandoned by God. EVER. They forsook God and suffered the disciplines that all rebellious people do, but God never, ever abandoned Israel. He always had held out His hand to them should they turn back to Him and obey Him again. God has always been very patient with Israel … and He always will be; He has entered into a special contract with them. God chose the Jews as a “people unto Himself”; it was ordained form the beginning that Yeshua would be born into the Jewish lineage … which the Gentiles could be grafted into by faith in Yeshua. The land of ISRAEL BELONGS TO THE JEWS – this is God’s Contract with them. Israel will never belong to anyone else; no matter what politics are played and who thinks otherwise. That some Jews today are still reluctant to acknowledge Yeshua as their Lord and Savior – the Messiah – has been prophesied and is part of God’s Grand Plan. That Israelis now in the hands of God’s Chosen people again and that there are many, many Jews who have accepted Yeshua as Messiah means that the end is indeed wrapping up. Hallelujah! For this we can sing and shout the glories of Father God! Yeshua left His Father’s side to be become like us - born of a human mother - among God’s Chosen people in the land God handpicked specifically for the Jews for His purposes (that through Him we might view the Father and see that it is possible to rise above the fray and OBEY GOD in all things): He lived on earth for 33 or 34 years, died, rose again to proclaim that death had been conquered for God’s children, ascended to the right hand of the Father where He awaits His Return to earth to put an end to Lucifer and the curse of sin once and for all.
There was no new Law at Calvary: Yeshua fulfilled the Old Covenant and the promises of God spoke generations before. Those who were faithful to God, looked towards the fulfillment and waited for the promise were freed from the bondage of the Law – grace was set in motion at Calvary, not Law. Yeshua said, “Think not that I have come to abolish the Law … I came to fulfill it.” The Gospel was given to the Jew first, then to the Gentiles (and sometimes at the same time as we know from reading Scripture). The Gospel was not new to some gentiles because some had been in contact with Yeshua while He walked on earth. The Apostles affirmed the Gospel among the Gentiles, as well as telling some of them the truths of God for the first time.
The Temple is not necessary because as Believers in Yeshua, we have instant access to God any time we need or want it – we do not need Priests to intervene on our behalf any longer. But the Temple will be rebuilt during the Tribulation period and the Jews will begin Temple worship again when the Church is no longer on earth. God will meet with the Jews as He did before and Scripture says all the Jews will be saved. Not some … ALL. So, while Replacement Theology (a teaching among some that says the Christians have replaced the Jews as God’s Chosen People) is wrong. God has never, nor will He ever abandon the Jews. The Gentiles are adopted children, but the Jews are God’s Own Children.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/30/2009 9:05:05 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Salvation is open to all who heed the call of God, forsake sinful lifestyles and follow Yeshua. Yeshua was prophesied in the Old Covenant and lived among mankind (Jew and Gentile) in the New Covenant (and He is among us now in Spirit); the Gospels tells us what the Apostles knew of Yeshua and how to live Godly lives until Yeshua returns for us. The Revelation tells us what is to happen upon the face of the earth during the End of Days as well as the establishment of the new Jerusalem where Yeshua will reign; it also tells us of our eternal life with God.
Repenting is what the world is under these days, that is to be with man until the 7th trump sounds. Vs:8 is about the instruction given at the last supper. The one in Vs:8 is the one that will be made with the whole house of Israel (and Jacob) and with righteous Gentiles is not in effect until the dead are brought out of their graves. The living will not be gathered before the dead are gathered.
Heb:8:6:
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry,
by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant,
which was established upon better promises.
Heb:8:7:
For if that first covenant had been faultless,
then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb:8:8:
For finding fault with them,
he saith,
Behold,
the days come,
saith the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb:8:9:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
because they continued not in my covenant,
and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb:8:10:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,
saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind,
and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people:
1Th:4:16:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th:4:17:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Israel was never abandoned by God. EVER. They forsook God and suffered the disciplines that all rebellious people do, but God never, ever abandoned Israel. He always had held out His hand to them should they turn back to Him and obey Him again. God has always been very patient with Israel … and He always will be; He has entered into a special contract with them. God chose the Jews as a “people unto Himself”; it was ordained form the beginning that Yeshua would be born into the Jewish lineage … which the Gentiles could be grafted into by faith in Yeshua. The land of ISRAEL BELONGS TO THE JEWS – this is God’s Contract with them. Israel will never belong to anyone else; no matter what politics are played and who thinks otherwise. That some Jews today are still reluctant to acknowledge Yeshua as their Lord and Savior – the Messiah – has been prophesied and is part of God’s Grand Plan. That Israelis now in the hands of God’s Chosen people again and that there are many, many Jews who have accepted Yeshua as Messiah means that the end is indeed wrapping up. Hallelujah! For this we can sing and shout the glories of Father God! Yeshua left His Father’s side to be become like us - born of a human mother - among God’s Chosen people in the land God handpicked specifically for the Jews for His purposes (that through Him we might view the Father and see that it is possible to rise above the fray and OBEY GOD in all things): He lived on earth for 33 or 34 years, died, rose again to proclaim that death had been conquered for God’s children, ascended to the right hand of the Father where He awaits His Return to earth to put an end to Lucifer and the curse of sin once and for all.
I think you are playing with words here. Israel and Jerusalem was given to the Gentiles until Christ returns. The first verse below is 70AD. The verse below that is at the time of Christ's return.
Lu:21:24:
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword,
and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Re:11:2:
But the court which is without the temple leave out,
and measure it not;
for it is given unto the Gentiles:
and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
That 42 months is up when the two witnesses are resurrected back to life. These are the first two to be resurrected, the rest of those in line for resurrection follow these two. Then the living are gathered. That is the sequence that will be followed. If blindness for has not been lifted then that part of prophecy is still in effect. Should judgment come today would they remain alive or would they be sent to hell along with a great many Gentiles?
Call it what you will but God would not gather some when events like this are still going to happen.
Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
Eze:39:24:
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them,
and hid my face from them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
There was no new Law at Calvary: Yeshua fulfilled the Old Covenant and the promises of God spoke generations before. Those who were faithful to God, looked towards the fulfillment and waited for the promise were freed from the bondage of the Law – grace was set in motion at Calvary, not Law. Yeshua said, “Think not that I have come to abolish the Law … I came to fulfill it.” The Gospel was given to the Jew first, then to the Gentiles (and sometimes at the same time as we know from reading Scripture). The Gospel was not new to some gentiles because some had been in contact with Yeshua while He walked on earth. The Apostles affirmed the Gospel among the Gentiles, as well as telling some of them the truths of God for the first time.
Gentiles are under two Laws, the 1st has to do with God and the 2nd has to do with how we treat others, friends and enemies are to be treated pretty much the same. Just what verses are you referencing when you say Jesus taught Gentiles while He was alive? A few Romans is all I can come up with and that was more of a special occasion that teaching to large groups of Gentiles.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
The Temple is not necessary because as Believers in Yeshua, we have instant access to God any time we need or want it – we do not need Priests to intervene on our behalf any longer. But the Temple will be rebuilt during the Tribulation period and the Jews will begin Temple worship again when the Church is no longer on earth. God will meet with the Jews as He did before and Scripture says all the Jews will be saved. Not some … ALL. So, while Replacement Theology (a teaching among some that says the Christians have replaced the Jews as God’s Chosen People) is wrong. God has never, nor will He ever abandon the Jews. The Gentiles are adopted children, but the Jews are God’s Own Children.
No matter what Satan & co can build it will be replaced by Christ's House of Prayer for the 1,000 years. Jerusalem is desolate after the vials have been poured out. Before anybody is invited to that place He will build a Temple alone and it will be standing when people first start to arrive. The Church isn't going anywhere, she will be right here on Earth during all the time prior to His return. The Church is who the remnant of the Nations are.
Isa:56:6:
Also the sons of the stranger,
that join themselves to the LORD,
to serve him,
and to love the name of the LORD,
to be his servants,
every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it,
and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa:56:7:
Even them will I bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer:
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar;
for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
It is Christians who are under Grace, that includes Jew and Gentile. Jews can be cut off from the same tree, what is that if it is not abandonment, it has a set time limit so it is not an eternal. In the verse below some will be waiting for resurrection before they can see Jesus as being the Messiah.
M't:23:37:
O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem,
thou that killest the prophets,
and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and ye would not!
M't:23:38:
Behold,
your house is left unto you desolate.
M't:23:39:
For I say unto you,
Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
The temple was desolate when Jesus left on that very day. The Apostles stayed in Jerusalem but nobody except Stephen is said to have preached in the temple. And you are right all of Israel will be saved, not just some. That is a one-time gathering that takes place on one single day so what is going on today is not part of that prophecy. There is no Scripture that supports a gathering of Israel before the day of the Lord, 7th trump.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/30/2009 7:52:57 PM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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I respectfully disagree and I have explained why.
The Jews are now back in the Land and they own it. The Temple cornerstone has been placed; the people are waiting for the new Temple to be built (the sacred items are already finished). Jew and Gentile are worshipping the Messiah together today - I am in fellowship with Jews and Gentiles who follow Yeshua (Jesus in English). There are Messianinc fellowships in Israel where Jews and Gentiles worship God together. Prophecy is being fulfilled as I type ... Belivers in the Lord await the Rapture and look forward to the Second Coming - Jews will be meeting the Lord in both events. Too many who say they know Yeshua confuse the two events. They are two different and distinct happenings, yet people continue to blend them into one event.
Believers in Yeshua are under no Law; they are under grace. We are to love The Lord, our God, with all of our being and to love our fellow man enough to lead them to the truth; what they do with it is thier business. God will not force anyone to love Him or to accept Yeshua, but all are given the opportunity to know the truth that will set them free. We live in a wonderful time when the truth is spread to all corners of the earth and everyone is given the chance to
know about the Good News of salvation in Yeshua.
I never "play with words". That is how confusion is generated. Everything I say is backed up with the simple words of the Scripture. If the understanding is nor clear to those that read, it is through no fault of mine :-) Too many cherry-pick verses and put thier own "absolute" spin on God's meaning. I do not do that.
Thank you for your time. Reflecting on the Word of God is never wasted energy ... even when disagreements lead to dead ends in discourse. Shalom
~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/
< Message edited by sureclarity -- 10/30/2009 8:01:47 PM >
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/30/2009 10:43:36 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Thank you for your time. Reflecting on the Word of God is never wasted energy ... even when disagreements lead to dead ends in discourse. Shalom
I hope this doesn't mean you are abandoning this thread. Perhaps what I will cover in some detail in another current thread that is about the same doctrine.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
I respectfully disagree and I have explained why.
Concerning what particular point? Several have been brought up. How about this one specific instance.
Zec:13:7:
Awake,
O sword,
against my shepherd,
and against the man that is my fellow,
saith the LORD of hosts:
smite the shepherd,
and the sheep shall be scattered:
and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
The little ones are Gentiles. This particular prophecy was fulfilled in the garden just before His arrest. The ones covered in the rest of that book are Gentiles, the saved and unsaved at Christ's arrival. The saved will see His arrival the same manor that Re:10 specifies. The wicked see that arrival as Re:16 describes.
I hope you find such subjects as being worth some discussion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
The Jews are now back in the Land and they own it. The Temple cornerstone has been placed; the people are waiting for the new Temple to be built (the sacred items are already finished). Jew and Gentile are worshipping the Messiah together today - I am in fellowship with Jews and Gentiles who follow Yeshua (Jesus in English). There are Messianinc fellowships in Israel where Jews and Gentiles worship God together. Prophecy is being fulfilled as I type ... Belivers in the Lord await the Rapture and look forward to the Second Coming - Jews will be meeting the Lord in both events. Too many who say they know Yeshua confuse the two events. They are two different and distinct happenings, yet people continue to blend them into one event.
People have nothing to do with the Temple that will be in operation for the 1,000 years. Christ alone is the builder.
Zec:6:12:
And speak unto him,
saying,
Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts,
saying,
Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
and he shall grow up out of his place,
and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec:6:13:
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD;
and he shall bear the glory,
and shall sit and rule upon his throne;
and he shall be a priest upon his throne:
and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Not only is that structure build by the time the first of saved Israel (and Gentiles over the next 30 days)but passages like the ones below are just then being fulfilled.
Eze:47:1:
Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house;
and,
behold,
waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward:
for the forefront of the house stood toward the east,
and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house,
at the south side of the altar.
Eze:47:2:
Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward,
and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward;
and,
behold,
there ran out waters on the right side.
The passage is the whole chapter. That is in existence when Israel is called back to their home. God is not going to bring them to a place that He is not in control of, in every which way.
These ones are the very first to be welcomed. The exact wat a resurrection takes place for long dead people is in the previous verses.
Eze:37:8:
And when I beheld,
lo,
the sinews and the flesh came up upon them,
and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze:37:9:
Then said he unto me,
Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy,
son of man,
and say to the wind,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Come from the four winds,
O breath,
and breathe upon these slain,
that they may live.
Eze:37:10:
So I prophesied as he commanded me,
and the breath came into them,
and they lived,
and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze:37:11:
Then he said unto me,
Son of man,
these bones are the whole house of Israel:
behold,
they say,
Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze:37:12:
Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze:37:13:
And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves,
O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze:37:14:
And shall put my spirit in you,
and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,
and performed it, saith the LORD.
Eze:37:15:
The word of the LORD came again unto me,
saying,
Eze:37:16:
Moreover,
thou son of man,
take thee one stick,
and write upon it,
For Judah,
and for the children of Israel his companions:
then take another stick,
and write upon it,
For Joseph,
the stick of Ephraim,
and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze:37:17:
And join them one to another into one stick;
and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze:37:18:
And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee,
saying,
Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze:37:19:
Say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the stick of Joseph,
which is in the hand of Ephraim,
and the tribes of Israel his fellows,
and will put them with him,
even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick,
and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze:37:20:
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze:37:21:
And say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen,
whither they be gone,
and will gather them on every side,
and bring them into their own land:
Eze:37:22:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king to them all:
and they shall be no more two nations,
neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze:37:23:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols,
nor with their detestable things,
nor with any of their transgressions:
but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces,
wherein they have sinned,
and will cleanse them:
so shall they be my people,
and I will be their God.
Eze:37:24:
And David my servant shall be king over them;
and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in my judgments,
and observe my statutes,
and do them.
Eze:37:25:
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant,
wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein,
even they,
and their children,
and their children's children for ever:
and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze:37:26:
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them;
it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:
and I will place them,
and multiply them, a
nd will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze:37:27:
My tabernacle also shall be with them:
yea,
I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Eze:37:28:
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel,
when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Once you add in further details from Eze:47 about the size if the river and that the waters can heal the Dead Sea then you can see why I have reservations about the claim that the 'time of the Gentiles is over'. They aren't desecrating the land, they are the stewards until Christ returns. The Gentiles there when Christ arrives are strictly in support of Satan. That force is made up of every Nation mentioned in Jeremiah 25, the reference to Isles can mean North America or wherever. These words certainly cover the entire earth.
Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,
and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:
and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
The ones in and around Jerusalem are made up from soldiers from 10 kingdoms that come into existence within the time of 42 months prior to Christ's arrival.
Re:17:12:
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet;
but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
So whoever is there before will either move on or be killed most likely.
Daniel puts it somewhat like this. At some point of the two witness starting their time the Beast from the Pit enters Israel's borders (as given in the OT). When the time of their ministry ends the Beast is quite capable of manifesting what Vs:45 describes. All to no avail 3 1/2 days after they are killed they are called to the same place all other Prophets from God or Christ are kept. The 'time of rest' for those under the alter is over, what they ask for is delivered, retribution on the wicked of the earth. This part alone could cover a few pages.
Da:11:41:
He shall enter also into the glorious land,
and many countries shall be overthrown:
but these shall escape out of his hand,
even Edom,
and Moab,
and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.
Again I want to stress these are characters who just arrive within the last 3 1/2 years are the bad guys.
Palestine or Muslims or any other person that can be considered Gentile (including Christians) is not something that God would disapprove of, it is by His determination that it be so. Even when Christ arrives and starts the 1,000 years that land is still destined to expire along with the Earth when fire from God in Heaven sends Satan and the other fallen angels to the lake. All of Israel along with the Gentiles alive for the 1,000 years all stay in New Jerusalem when the New Earth is revealed after the Judgment Day that marks the last of any resurrection. It is the ones that Isa:65 describes as being the unsaved (first few verses) that are called 'the rest' in Re:20.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Believers in Yeshua are under no Law; they are under grace. We are to love The Lord, our God, with all of our being and to love our fellow man enough to lead them to the truth; what they do with it is thier business. God will not force anyone to love Him or to accept Yeshua, but all are given the opportunity to know the truth that will set them free. We live in a wonderful time when the truth is spread to all corners of the earth and everyone is given the chance to
know about the Good News of salvation in Yeshua.
Sure we are, otherwise there would be no punishments coming our way for being abusers of the truth. For instance why would you think that these ones are punished quite severely? Sent to hell is not for benign crimes.
Lu:6:46:
And why call ye me,
Lord,
Lord,
and do not the things which I say?
This verse is from a passage about just Christians, the sheep and goats parable, some are found to be worthy, some are not. The ones called goats have broken laws.
M't:25:41:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me,
ye cursed,
into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:
The (no so) odd thing about the way God made grace work is by innocence. A sin committed after knowing that grace covers sin is exempt fro grace covering that sin. Nor does grace say sins should increase so grace can increase.
Ro:6:1:
What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin,
that grace may abound?
Ro:6:2:
God forbid.
How shall we,
that are dead to sin,
live any longer therein?
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
I never "play with words". That is how confusion is generated. Everything I say is backed up with the simple words of the Scripture. If the understanding is nor clear to those that read, it is through no fault of mine :-) Too many cherry-pick verses and put thier own "absolute" spin on God's meaning. I do not do that.
Still, God allows Neb and the Romans to exile Israel from the land that God promised them (as long as they obeyed His words) and you say they were not abandoned. The tone Daniel uses certainly seemsto be the words of one who feels abandoned by God (in that the homeland was taken from them by force and God did nothing to prevent it). Passages make 'cherry picking impossible', the verses below are not even the whole passage.
Da:9:4:
And I prayed unto the LORD my God,
and made my confession,
and said,
O Lord,
the great and dreadful God,
keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him,
and to them that keep his commandments;
Da:9:5:
We have sinned,
and have committed iniquity,
and have done wickedly,
and have rebelled,
even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
Da:9:6:
Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets,
which spake in thy name to our kings,
our princes,
and our fathers,
and to all the people of the land.
Da:9:7:
O Lord,
righteousness belongeth unto thee,
but unto us confusion of faces,
as at this day;
to the men of Judah,
and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
and unto all Israel,
that are near,
and that are far off,
through all the countries whither thou hast driven them,
because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
Da:9:8:
O Lord,
to us belongeth confusion of face,
to our kings,
to our princes,
and to our fathers,
because we have sinned against thee.
Da:9:9:
To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses,
though we have rebelled against him;
Da:9:10:
Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws,
which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
Da:9:11:
Yea,
all Israel have transgressed thy law,
even by departing,
that they might not obey thy voice;
therefore the curse is poured upon us,
and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God,
because we have sinned against him.
Da:9:12:
And he hath confirmed his words,
which he spake against us,
and against our judges that judged us,
by bringing upon us a great evil:
for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
Da:9:13:
As it is written in the law of Moses,
all this evil is come upon us:
yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God,
that we might turn from our iniquities,
and understand thy truth.
Da:9:14:
Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil,
and brought it upon us:
for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth:
for we obeyed not his voice.
Da:9:15:
And now,
O Lord our God,
that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand,
and hast gotten thee renown,
as at this day;
we have sinned,
we have done wickedly.
Da:9:16:
O Lord,
according to all thy righteousness,
I beseech thee,
let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem,
thy holy mountain:
because for our sins,
and for the iniquities of our fathers,
Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/31/2009 2:45:59 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 798
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shabbat shalom, Wayne.
A single question: The Zionist movement of the 1940s that led the way to Isra'el becoming a nation once again, was it of God?
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/31/2009 9:03:45 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
I hope this doesn't mean you are abandoning this thread. Perhaps what I will cover in some detail in another current thread that is about the same doctrine.
No; I am not abandoning the thread. I was just wondering where you were in thought...
I will take the weekend to study and then reply during the coming week :-)[/font]
< Message edited by sureclarity -- 10/31/2009 9:12:07 AM >
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/31/2009 9:06:02 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
A single question: The Zionist movement of the 1940s that led the way to Isra'el becoming a nation once again, was it of God?
Yes; I believe so. I also believe Scripture bears this thought out.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 10/31/2009 11:03:13 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, Wayne.
A single question: The Zionist movement of the 1940s that led the way to Isra'el becoming a nation once again, was it of God?
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Zionists are men, not one single Zionists (or any other 'group') can perform any of the signs following that everybody sent from God can do, they work for carnal man. The signs following is meant to weed out imposters, so far it should be 100% accurate. If they were from God comfort would be given to people in all lands, not just Israel. That still a world left to the Gentile Nations. That is part of the way things work today, the sword left to men is explained in Romans 13. The Servants are the governments of the different nations. The part about poison is more to do with protection from being poisoned, much like the protection. If they were from God there would be no hospitals that had long-term care. When Christ has a hand in things He does what is needed, coming as Priest and then as King would seem to mean a complete ownership of life and property. The time-frame being promoted is in decades. Revelation is the time-line to all prophecy that points to the day Christ returns, that includes a great deal (all actually) OT prophecy about an event called the 'day of the Lord'.
After 70AD Israel was pretty much in exile, spread in many directions. Until that time was over they were to be a light unto the Nations, that role ends the day Christ arrives. As in Daniel the way to stay in touch with God while being in exile is through private prayer. Cut off from the land just means no physical city or temple. The prophecies I have been posting point to Christ being the sole builder of the very first thing. What goes on more than 5 yrs (give it 9 for the 7yr doctrines) before that is all part of the tim of the Gentiles. Isreal would then be wherever Nations are as being a light about how gentle His people can be. Vengeance be mine saith the Lord, along with the NT instruction to 'move on and ley Christ handle it when He returns. His force alone no servants like God using Neb.
The movement to have Israel existing again as a Jewish homeland was conceived of as far back as the 1880's. I have yet to find how widely circulated the Balfour Declaration was published before it became fact. I could read about a lion or eagle or bear in Scripture and say to myself, this is who I am. In reality if God did not intend it that way then it won't be that way.
The references that lead me to believe that is what God says about the matter have been posted in part. I'm sure I can find more that reinforce the same view. Resurrection is another thing that is missing in that land, if Christ was the King of the Earth everybody from the grave would be there to greet the 144,000 that straggle in, (witness to the destruction caused by the 3rd woe) Dieing as Christian is also a sign that Christ has returned as King if resurrections take place there also.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
No; I am not abandoning the thread. I was just wondering where you were in thought...
I will take the weekend to study and then reply during the coming week :-)[/font]
All end time prophecies rotate around the arrival of Christ as King. That is the very first thing Christ does. While the wicked are dying in great numbers both Israel and the Righteous Gentiles are coming back from the graves. Scripture is pretty clear that when Christ calls them home some major changes have taken place between the end of the time of the Gentiles and the beginning of Christ's rule. The first two tasks are to cleanse the land and bury weapons of war, one takes 7 months and the other takes 7 years.
I totally agree that all are saved back to time of Jacob and Israel were alive. The part I do not believe is that today's events have anything to do with God. If Israel is feeling home-sick then they should be their in a spiritual capacity (Priests) and leave out the attempt of also acting as King without authority from above. War is evil yet it is the biggest business on the planet.
Why would anybody thing God would leave the Church out of the end-times. All Gentiles who have heard of God should be able to qualify for one of the 7 Churches? All of Israel that believe Jesus is the promised Messiah should also be able to qualify for a relationship with Christ based on those 14 different possibilities.
< Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger -- 10/31/2009 11:09:56 AM >
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/1/2009 1:07:55 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 798
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Wayne.
So, you don't think it was God's doing to see Isra'el become a nation again in 1948?
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/1/2009 2:20:24 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Wayne.
So, you don't think it was God's doing to see Isra'el become a nation again in 1948?
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Hi Roy,
So I take it you think these verses, and many more, were fulfilled in every respect by 1948? The theme in the verses below is that the wicked are totally gone before Israel is called to come home.
Jer:30:18:
Thus saith the LORD;
Behold,
I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents,
and have mercy on his dwellingplaces;
and the city shall be builded upon her own heap,
and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer:30:19:
And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry:
and I will multiply them,
and they shall not be few;
I will also glorify them,
and they shall not be small.
Jer:30:20:
Their children also shall be as aforetime,
and their congregation shall be established before me,
and I will punish all that oppress them.
Jer:30:21:
And their nobles shall be of themselves,
and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them;
and I will cause him to draw near,
and he shall approach unto me:
for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me?
saith the LORD.
Jer:30:22:
And ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God.
Jer:30:23:
Behold,
the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury,
a continuing whirlwind:
it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
Jer:30:24:
The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return,
until he have done it,
and until he have performed the intents of his heart:
in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Jer:31:1:
At the same time,
saith the LORD,
will I be the God of all the families of Israel,
and they shall be my people.
Jer:31:2:
Thus saith the LORD,
The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness;
even Israel,
when I went to cause him to rest.
Jer:31:3:
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me,
saying,
Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:
therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Jer:31:4:
Again I will build thee,
and thou shalt be built,
O virgin of Israel:
thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,
and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
Jer:31:5:
Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria:
the planters shall plant,
and shall eat them as common things.
Jer:31:6:
For there shall be a day,
that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry,
Arise ye,
and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
Jer:31:7: For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
Jer:31:8:
Behold,
I will bring them from the north country,
and gather them from the coasts of the earth,
and with them the blind and the lame,
the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together:
a great company shall return thither.
Jer:31:9:
They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.
I can understand that my view will be rejected because I am a Gentile and as such have no understanding of the inner workings of the Bible, prophecy especially. You are aware, no doubt, that not every Rabbi agrees with the assessment that 1948 was the end of the exile into the Nations.
You have not really stated your position on the matter, at least on this thread.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/1/2009 4:32:33 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 798
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Wayne.
So, you don't think it was God's doing to see Isra'el become a nation again in 1948?
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Hi Roy,
So I take it you think these verses, and many more, were fulfilled in every respect by 1948?
Did I say that? I don't think I said any such thing. "Fulfilled in every respect?" Probably not. Did God have a hand in it? ABSOLUTELY!
Look, Wayne, God often works THROUGH human instrumentation, and sometimes it takes more than a lifetime for God to accomplish an act, not because He couldn't act faster, but because time is not that important to Him. He can take as long as He likes. (II Peter 3:8-9)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
The theme in the verses below is that the wicked are totally gone before Israel is called to come home.
Jer:30:18:
Thus saith the LORD;
Behold,
I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents,
and have mercy on his dwellingplaces;
and the city shall be builded upon her own heap,
and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer:30:19:
And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry:
and I will multiply them,
and they shall not be few;
I will also glorify them,
and they shall not be small.
Jer:30:20:
Their children also shall be as aforetime,
and their congregation shall be established before me,
and I will punish all that oppress them.
Jer:30:21:
And their nobles shall be of themselves,
and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them;
and I will cause him to draw near,
and he shall approach unto me:
for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me?
saith the LORD.
Jer:30:22:
And ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God.
Jer:30:23:
Behold,
the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury,
a continuing whirlwind:
it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
Jer:30:24:
The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return,
until he have done it,
and until he have performed the intents of his heart:
in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Jer:31:1:
At the same time,
saith the LORD,
will I be the God of all the families of Israel,
and they shall be my people.
Jer:31:2:
Thus saith the LORD,
The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness;
even Israel,
when I went to cause him to rest.
Jer:31:3:
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me,
saying,
Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:
therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Jer:31:4:
Again I will build thee,
and thou shalt be built,
O virgin of Israel:
thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,
and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
Jer:31:5:
Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria:
the planters shall plant,
and shall eat them as common things.
Jer:31:6:
For there shall be a day,
that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry,
Arise ye,
and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
Jer:31:7: For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
Jer:31:8:
Behold,
I will bring them from the north country,
and gather them from the coasts of the earth,
and with them the blind and the lame,
the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together:
a great company shall return thither.
Jer:31:9:
They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.
I can understand that my view will be rejected because I am a Gentile and as such have no understanding of the inner workings of the Bible, prophecy especially. You are aware, no doubt, that not every Rabbi agrees with the assessment that 1948 was the end of the exile into the Nations.
You have not really stated your position on the matter, at least on this thread.
Nobody's rejecting your view; you're entitled to it. In fact, I agree that the Messiah will gather his people when He returns and that He will build Ezekiel's temple, but have you considered that (1) there's more than one gathering talked about in the prophecies, and (2) that such gatherings of the Jews can take time and various stages to accomplish? If you study the history of the modern Jewish nation, you will see the fingerprints of God all over it! Believe me, faced with the odds stacked against them and the sheer ferociousness of their enemies, both from the European Nazi forces and the Muslim countries around them, it was indeed a MIRACLE of the highest caliber to get them back to the Land at all or to give them the opportunity to become an independent nation! That is just undeniable fact!
So, how would you explain otherwise? How would you explain the War for Independence or the 6-Day War?
And, if you admit to God having a hand in their liberation and the formation of the Israeli State, then the question you have to ask yourself is this: Is it possible that the Messiah of God cares more for His natural relatives than you thought? Remember: Yeshua` was 100% a Jew! His mother's lineage was known as was that of His stepfather. He had a Jewish mother, a Jewish stepfather, Jewish half-brothers, and half-sisters, Jewish cousins, Jewish aunts and uncles, and Jewish grandfathers and grandmothers. Indeed, everyone He knew was Jewish and related to Him however remote or removed! In fact, even today all of these Jews in Isra'el are the sons and daughters of cousins however distant! Do you think He would lightly throw them all away, His own blood relatives, His own FLESH AND BLOOD?
No, the proper response would be to acknowledge humbly the awesome part that God has played and will continue to play to bring His people back to Himself.
In the love of the Messiah,
Roy
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 11/1/2009 4:40:51 PM >
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/1/2009 9:59:01 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Wayne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger
Hi Roy,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Wayne.
So, you don't think it was God's doing to see Isra'el become a nation again in 1948?
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Hi Roy,
So I take it you think these verses, and many more, were fulfilled in every respect by 1948?
Did I say that? I don't think I said any such thing. "Fulfilled in every respect?" Probably not. Did God have a hand in it? ABSOLUTELY!
Look, Wayne, God often works THROUGH human instrumentation, and sometimes it takes more than a lifetime for God to accomplish an act, not because He couldn't act faster, but because time is not that important to Him. He can take as long as He likes. (II Peter 3:8-9)
Certainly God has used men to carry various messages, the real question is this, why would this be the very first time that somebody was sent with some sort of authority above man's that had no signs to show that he was actually sent by God? The verses indicate to me that mental and physical hospitals should be empty. That is how things start, destruction of the wicked. Even if life can be saved today it does not stop death from coming eventually. It is from men, that doesn't make it a grand plan of God's. that He allows men to do Most often by the time a person reaches 100 they are in the grave or will be there in the next decade. Resolving that problem is God's territory.
M'r:16:17:
And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
M'r:16:18:
They shall take up serpents;
and if they drink any deadly thing,
it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick,
and they shall recover.
M'r:16:19:
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them,
he was received up into heaven,
and sat on the right hand of God.
M'r:16:20:
And they went forth,
and preached every where,
the Lord working with them,
and confirming the word with signs following.
Amen.
A quick search for the existence of Israel brought up the Balfour Declaration and one the person who made sure they had the funds to carry it out.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Balfour_Declaration
(in part)
"However, no clarity evolved on how a Jewish homeland might be established, or on how the rights of Arabs might be protected. Although the United Nations in 1947 drew up plans for two states, no mechanism for establishing these was created. Lack of clarity on how a viable two-state reality could be achieved continues to characterize international involvement in efforts to end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people."
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Edmond_James_de_Rothschild#encyclopedia
(in part)
"Baron Edmond Benjamin James de Rothschild (August 19, 1845 – November 2, 1934) was a French member of the Rothschild banking family. A strong supporter of Zionism, his genorous donations lent significant support to the movement during its early years which helped lead to the establishment of the State of Israel"
The first link has an error in it, there was a UN body that was to settle any disputes.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm
(in part)
"2. International conventions
The State shall be bound by all the international agreements and conventions, both general and special, to which Palestine has become a party. Subject to any right of denunciation provided for therein, such agreements and conventions shall be respected by the State throughout the period for which they were concluded.
Any dispute about the applicability and continued validity of international conventions or treaties signed or adhered to by the mandatory Power on behalf of Palestine shall be referred to the International Court of Justice in accordance with the provisions of the Statute of the Court. "
There was also a stipulation that made independent Nation within a very short time.
(in part)
"Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in Part III of this Plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in Parts II and III below."
Seems to be quite binding, why was it not followed? Also how much of the dealing went on behind closed doors. Canada's changes to the constitution seem to indicate much open debate amongst the voters is promoted as the best resolution in the long run.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Nobody's rejecting your view; you're entitled to it. In fact, I agree that the Messiah will gather his people when He returns and that He will build Ezekiel's temple, but have you considered that
Does the resurrection of the righteous and later of the sinners happen in a quick time or is it spread out over many generations? Does that mean you are saying He has not returned?
Have you tried applying the penny parable to this situation. The only complainers are the ones who have been in the field the longest. They are not entitled to more than the very last person who is hired/saved.
M't:20:8:
So when even was come,
the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward,
Call the labourers,
and give them their hire,
beginning from the last unto the first.
M't:20:9:
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour,
they received every man a penny.
M't:20:10:
But when the first came,
they supposed that they should have received more;
and they likewise received every man a penny.
M't:20:11:
And when they had received it,
they murmured against the goodman of the house,
M't:20:12:
Saying,
These last have wrought but one hour,
and thou hast made them equal unto us,
which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
M't:20:13:
But he answered one of them,
and said,
Friend,
I do thee no wrong:
didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
M't:20:14:
Take that thine is,
and go thy way:
I will give unto this last,
even as unto thee.
M't:20:15:
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
Is thine eye evil,
because I am good?
If you feel 'superior' to those that come later then how well does Israel fare if the OT Prophets come back with a vengeance because some of them were killed in the temple? God apparently holds them more dear than Israel or she would be totally protected, not just 144,000. The lack of protection comes from Jeremiah's time and before. That is not a very large number compared to the over 1 billion that make up the remnant of the Nations (Church) at Christ's coming. That number would grow to include people all the way back to Adam.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
(1) there's more than one gathering talked about in the prophecies, and
Not during the period of time called the time given to the Church to acquire new members.
There is only one gathering after the cross. The time until that day arrives is called the time of the Gentiles, it started when Jerusalem ceased to have a temple that was in accordance with God's ways. That period is covered by grace, even grace until the 3rd woe begins, repenting during that will not help you at the moment.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
(2) that such gatherings of the Jews can take time and various stages to accomplish?
Still, once they feel they have acquired it 'enough', then what? Peace in the land is supposed to be right up there with Christ doing all the fighting on their behalf. He isn't going to drag that out for decades.
While in exile temple sacrifice was non-existent so services could still have used the approved substitute. Grain, usually as fine flour, could be substituted if a live sacrifice could not be made due to there being no animals or birds available. Today the animals might be plentiful but there is no alter. Why would anybody who believes Christ was the last blood sacrifice God would require any killings be done for that purpose? That would be an abomination, along with the money changers that Jesus tossed out twice.
Every time I hear the argument for a renewal of live sacrifice, in a temple or even anyplace during Passover This verse that says it is very unlikely something that will take place in Christ's house of prayer. The 3rd vrs is the killer, vs # 1 gives us the time-frame, Christ way of worship.
Isa:66:1:
Thus saith the LORD,
The heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool:
where is the house that ye build unto me?
and where is the place of my rest?
Isa:66:2:
For all those things hath mine hand made,
and those things have been,
saith the LORD:
but to this man will I look,
even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit,
and trembleth at my word.
Isa:66:3:
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man;
he that sacrificeth a lamb,
as if he cut off a dog's neck;
he that offereth an oblation,
as if he offered swine's blood;
he that burneth incense,
as if he blessed an idol.
Yea,
they have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Isa:66:4:
I also will choose their delusions,
and will bring their fears upon them;
because when I called,
none did answer;
when I spake,
they did not hear:
but they did evil before mine eyes,
and chose that in which I delighted not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
If you study the history of the modern Jewish nation, you will see the fingerprints of God all over it! Believe me, faced with the odds stacked against them and the sheer ferociousness of their enemies, both from the European Nazi forces and the Muslim countries around them, it was indeed a MIRACLE of the highest caliber to get them back to the Land at all or to give them the opportunity to become an independent nation! That is just undeniable fact!
How does it work that they are alive and on their land yet their host Nation is deemed to be their enemy? Since Israel is a select group of people it should come as no surprise that they will forever be surrounded by Gentiles whether they are in the Nations or in the promised land.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
So, how would you explain otherwise? How would you explain the War for Independence or the 6-Day War?
Planning and lots of practice before the 'invasion' took place. Their own military planning manual, from years before the war, indicated they should take out the runways in a certain manner. Once they had the practice right the war began, started with a bit of deception, sending the troops home for the weekend and making a big deal of it in the news. God doesn't have to work that way.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
And, if you admit to God having a hand in their liberation and the formation of the Israeli State, then the question you have to ask yourself is this: Is it possible that the Messiah of God cares more for His natural relatives than you thought? Remember: Yeshua` was 100% a Jew! His mother's lineage was known as was that of His stepfather. He had a Jewish mother, a Jewish stepfather, Jewish half-brothers, and half-sisters, Jewish cousins, Jewish aunts and uncles, and Jewish grandfathers and grandmothers. Indeed, everyone He knew was Jewish and related to Him however remote or removed! In fact, even today all of these Jews in Isra'el are the sons and daughters of cousins however distant! Do you think He would lightly throw them all away, His own blood relatives, His own FLESH AND BLOOD?
The answer is what other verses are there that might shed some light on this specific question.
Re:16:17:
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven,
from the throne,
saying,
It is done.
Would it surprise you lean that this is spoken about Gentiles?
Joh:10:16:
And other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold,
and one shepherd.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
No, the proper response would be to acknowledge humbly the awesome part that God has played and will continue to play to bring His people back to Himself.
So this "Nobody's rejecting your view; you're entitled to it. " expires at this point? ;>) Too bad that other thread went missing. It had a fairly detailed post about times and dates. I assume that is basically what view is supported.
I fully acknowledge the great plans God has for mankind, starting with Israel when the time to resurrect them and all others deserving such rewards and ending with those that are offered a drink of water from Almighty God after they are chastised at Judgment Day. Job will be there for the very beginning and he was from Ur, not Israel.
Later.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/3/2009 1:34:29 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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Jews & Gentiles (2nd Coming)
Yeshua – the Amen (Revelation 3:14)
Yeshua – The True Witness (Revelation 3:14)
Yeshua – Lion of the tribe of Judah (Revelation 5:5)
Yeshua – Root of David (Revelation 5:5)
Yeshua – King of the Nations (Revelation 15:3)
Yeshua – Star out of Jacob (Numbers 24:17)
Rapture: 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 17 will occur at the end of the Church Era. All those Believers found in all the earth (dead v 15) and alive v 17) ) will be raised to meet Him together; leaving only the unbeliever’s behind.
1 Corinthians 15:50 – 54
Philippians 4:5
Judgment Seat of Yeshua: 2 Corinthians 5:10. After the Believer’s are Raptured, this happening will be a “rewards” event. Where lives and actions on earth will be appraised according to obedience to God, with particular eternal rewards given to all assembled.
Tribulation on Earth: Matthew 24:21
2 Thessalonians 5:1 – 8
Revelation 4:19
This event will happen on the earth when the Believer’s are with Yeshua. Lucifer will be unrestrained on earth. The AntiChrist will make a peace pact with Israel, which he will break, promising unity to all global citizens. A mark of identification will mark those who follow the beast so that they alone will be able to buy and sell. Lucifer’s wrath will be furious: no longer will he have access to heaven (Job 1 & 2)
During the last 3-1/2 years of the Antichrist’s reign, a unified religious and governmental system will be installed globally, cresting in the hellish Battle of Armageddon in the Valley of Megiddo (Revelation 16;16 & 19;19).
Second Coming of Christ: Occurs at the end of the Battle of Armageddon/Yeshua will return to judge the earth
Revelation 1:1
Revelation 2:16
Revelation 3:11
Revelation 11:14
Revelation 22:7
Revelation 22:12
Revelation 22:20
Sequence of events:
Matthew 24:29 – 30
Subjects Involved: (2 Thessalonians 1:7 & 8; Revelation 19:14)
Angels (various Scriptures)
Unbelievers (2 Thessalonians 1:8 & 9)
Who sees Event (Matthew 24:30; Revelation 1:7)
Jew (Zechariah 12:10)
Gentiles (all tribes of the earth)
Smiting of Nations:
2 Thessalonians 1:7 & 8
Revelation 19:11 & 12
Matthew 25:31 – 34
Salvation of Israel:
Romans 11:25 – 27
Daniel 12:13
“fullness of Gentiles” (Romans 11:25)
“Israel will be rescued” (Daniel 12:1 & Revelation 12:7 – 9)
Sheep & Goat Judgment (Matthew 25:31 – 44): Unbelievers judged and removed from the earth
Zechariah 14:1 – 11
Matthew 10:7
Matthew 24:14
Matthew 24:29 – 44
Acts 1:9 – 11
Revelation 1:7
Revelation 19:11-21
Believers enter the Kingdom Age; Known as the Millennium (1,000 year reign) - (Revelation 20:4 & 6): The duration of this period will be approximately 1,000 years – the Believer’s that were Raptured will reign with Yeshua.
Isaiah 11:1 – 9
Daniel 2:44
Mathew 19:28
1 Corinthians 6:2
2 Timothy 2:12
Revelation 5:10
Revelation 20:6
Revelation 22:4 – 6
Lucifer and his horde bound in the abyss. The Believers that came out of the Tribulation period and died for their belief in God, will join those who had previously been Raptured, and together they will reign with Yeshua as judges, mayors, governors, ect. In the new earth: the curse will be lifted from the earth and the animals, and the desert will blossom like the rose, and there will be plenty of food.
Isaiah 14:12 – 14
Ezekiel 28
Revelation 12:7 – 17
Revelation 20:1 – 10
Yet, even though Yeshua will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and knowledge of the Lord will permeate the whole earth, rebellion will still raise its head and the children born to these Millennium saints will turn against Yeshua, clearly indicating that a perfect world does not guarantee a perfect life. Evil wears three faces: Luciferic influences/the world systems/fleshly desires. Change on the outside (Nirvana (a perfect environment), if you please) will not change what needs to be perfected on the inside. Even though Lucifer and the world system are gone, some will still rebel against God.
Lucifer’s Release: After the 1,000 year reign of Yeshua and the Believer’s, Lucifer will be released to deceive the Nations again (those children born to the Believer’s during the Millennium). This happening will justify the final “eternal punishment”.
Revelation 20:7 – 9
Great White Throne Judgment: Revelation 20:10 – 15
Earth destroyed: 2 Peter 3
The “heavens” will pass away; the elements will be destroyed; and the earth will burn up (vv. 10 & 12). Most likely the “heavens” used in this passage represents the stellar spaces – planetary systems, and the galaxies – including our own planet and its surrounding atmosphere. In the New Covenant, the word “elements” is always used in reference to the most basic form of something – time, force, energy, space, matter, and motion – also, in the original language the word destroyed means loosed. ‘The earth will be burned up’ is a literal phrase. The planet we live on now will be destroyed by fire. Because of this, the Great White Throne judgment will take place in space somewhere since the earth will no longer exist.
Final Judgment and Eternal banishment to the Lake of Fire for Lucifer and those he deceived
Eternity with God for the Faithful Saints! A New heaven and New Erath; no more pain and sorrow! This is the ultimate destiny for the Believers. We are given no glimpse into what this new place holds for us other than we will be with Yeshua forever and ever.
Psalm 102:25 & 26
Matthew 5:18
Matthew 24:35
Mark 13:31
Luke 21:33
Hebrews 1:10 – 12
2 Peter 3:7
2 Peter 10 – 13
Revelation 20:11
Revelation 21:1
Revelation 21 – 22
We can be assured that heaven is not a foggy place hidden by a drifting cloud cover, or an unending space trip; it is not something that is vague or nebulous. It is a place … an actual location. Yeshua told the Disciples that it is a prepared spot (John 14:1 – 3). But it is also more: in heaven we will enjoy living quarters in the house of God! Though it will be different than what we are used to on earth, it will be the BEST of places! In heaven there will be:
Face to face fellowship with Yeshua (1 Corinthians 13:12; 1 John 3:1 – 2; Revelation 22:4)
A full and complete knowledge enjoyed by every resident (1 Corinthians 13:12)
There will be abundance (Revelation 21:6)
There will be a shining, brilliant beauty/ a celestial city (Revelation 21:10 -21)
There will be meaningful service (Revelation 22:3)
There will be worship (various Scriptures)
Kingdom Age Scriptures
Isaiah 2:4
Isaiah 4:5 7 6
Isaiah 9:6 & 7
Isaiah 11:6 & 9
Isaiah 12:4 & 5
Isaiah 29:17 – 19
Isaiah 30:23 – 26
Isaiah 33:24
Isaiah 35:1 – 7
Isaiah 42:6 & 7
Isaiah 54:14 & 15
Isaiah 55:12
Isaiah 60:19
Isaiah 65:19
Isaiah 65:23
Isaiah 65:25
Mockers: Peter told us that there would be mockers, and he outlined the argument of the mockers. The term mocker means “to be a child; to play with something as a child plays with a toy.” Therefore, a mocker is a skeptic – an individual who plays with that which is both serious and precious. The mockers favorite argument is: “where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues as it has since the beginning.” In essence they accuse Christians (the 1st century Believer to today’s Believers) of making rash predictions that they cannot count on happening. However, we must keep in mind that God’s logical timing is not the same logic as ours; any seeming delay in Yeshua’s return is purposed by God to allow men and women everywhere the opportunity to respond to His promise of hope, forgiveness, and mercy.
2 Peter 3:3 & 4
2 Peter 3:8 & 9
BYW … Abraham, the Father of the Jews was originally from Ur too; and really what difference does it make where anyone comes from when God calls them to follow Him? It’s not the ethnic background of a Jew that makes them a Jew … it’s the consecration to God as His Chosen People; ALL THE JEWS ARE CHOSEN, and those in the end will be saved: ALL JEWS WILL BE SAVED. Not because they reside in Israel when Yeshua returns, but because they belong to God and God will not go back on his promise to them.
< Message edited by sureclarity -- 11/3/2009 1:42:58 AM >
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/3/2009 11:32:28 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Jews & Gentiles (2nd Coming)
Yeshua – the Amen (Revelation 3:14)
Yeshua – The True Witness (Revelation 3:14)
Yeshua – Lion of the tribe of Judah (Revelation 5:5)
Yeshua – Root of David (Revelation 5:5)
Yeshua – King of the Nations (Revelation 15:3)
Yeshua – Star out of Jacob (Numbers 24:17)
The letters to the 7 Churches would cover all of mankind. Of the 14 possible relationships listed everybody could qualify for one of those positions
based on their relationship with God. A person can certainly move from needing to overcome to being 'righteous'.
Jesus was born in Judea and He is heir to the throne by way of His earthly father Joseph.
The remnant of the Nations will come to His house of prayer in Jerusalem to worship God. They will do that faithfully for the full 1,000 years.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Rapture: 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 17 will occur at the end of the Church Era. All those Believers found in all the earth (dead v 15) and alive v
17) ) will be raised to meet Him together; leaving only the unbeliever’s behind.
1 Corinthians 15:50 – 54
Philippians 4:5
Nobody get raised from the dead before the two witnesses of Re:11. Their resurrection marks the arrival of Christ with power and glory. It is only at
that time that people are gathered to Christ who is descending from the air.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Judgment Seat of Yeshua: 2 Corinthians 5:10. After the Believer’s are Raptured, this happening will be a “rewards” event. Where lives and actions
on earth will be appraised according to obedience to God, with particular eternal rewards given to all assembled.
It is true there will be a judgment of men, that results in us either being alive for the next thousand years or asleep in death for that same time or
in hell for that same time. It is the sorting of the sheep and goats, as well as the destruction of the wicked. These are just some verses that
reinforce that message.
Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Re:19:8:
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen,
clean and white:
for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Re:19:9:
And he saith unto me,
Write,
Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.
And he saith unto me,
These are the true sayings of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Tribulation on Earth: Matthew 24:21
The great tribulation spoken of in that verse is the 3rd woe of Revelation. It is also called the 7th trump and it is the wrath of God being poured out
on non-believers. It is all of Re:16 that happens in a very short time. The tribulation caused by the 5th & 6th trumps are called the 1st and 2nd woes
on the inhabitants of the earth.
M't:24:14:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
M't:24:15:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth, let him understand:)
M't:24:16:
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
The above verses are part of tribulation that comes befor the verse you referenced.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
2 Thessalonians 5:1 – 8
Revelation 4:19
1 Thess:5 reaffirms that we are given information that helps us understand the things that will be happening in the end-times. What wasn't given in this
letter was given in another letter that did tell them what would happen before anybody was gathered.
2Th:2:3:
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4:
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.
The False Prophet can only do this after the two witnesses are dead and laying in the street. Christ takes control after they are raised so it cannot
happen after that point.
The man of sin comes after Satan does these things.
2Th:2:8:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th:2:9:
Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
This event will happen on the earth when the Believer’s are with Yeshua. Lucifer will be unrestrained on earth. The AntiChrist will make a peace pact
with Israel, which he will break, promising unity to all global citizens. A mark of identification will mark those who follow the beast so that they
alone will be able to buy and sell. Lucifer’s wrath will be furious: no longer will he have access to heaven (Job 1 & 2)
There isn't a rapture for the Church nor does the AC make a pact with Israel. In fact if a deal was to be made it would be with Satan, the Beast from
the Pit or with the False Prophet.
The verse from Daniel 9 belongs to the 70 weeks, there is no gap that sets aside 7 years.
The mark seems to more aimed at merchants that end-users. Satan's wrathy will be within the limits God has already set out.
Re:12:12:
Therefore rejoice,
ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!
for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also,
the seventh from Adam,
prophesied of these,
saying,
Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude:1:15:
To execute judgment upon all,
and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed,
and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jude:1:16:
These are murmurers,
complainers,
walking after their own lusts;
and their mouth speaketh great swelling words,
having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
This is how the most powerful of the sinners (giants and men of renown) found the flood , more than just water. The water was for the beasts of the
field, God and Holy Angels (Saints to God) put the fallen ones into the pit. Most will stay they until the end of the 1,000 years.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
During the last 3-1/2 years of the Antichrist’s reign, a unified religious and governmental system will be installed globally, cresting in the hellish
Battle of Armageddon in the Valley of Megiddo (Revelation 16;16 & 19;19).
The False Prophet is the man who takes over 3 of the 10 kingdoms that the Beast from the Pit grants to men. The Beast has only 42 months of power, the
False Prophet must come after the start of the Beast's time. The beast comes in at the start of the 5th trump. Satan let him loose from the pit where he
has been since the flood in Noah's time. That is how he can be the king that was, is not and will be. Was before the flood, is not since then (along
with all fallen angels) and will be again for the 3 1/2 years prior to Christ's return.
I'm not sure why you would call it hellish, the violence is against those who preferred to use violent against others to get what they wanted.. That is
the start of wrath from Heaven, nor is it something that should be cheered because many will lose their life that day.
The men die this easily.
Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
The army of 200 M die this easily.
Re:14:19:
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth,
and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Re:14:20:
And the winepress was trodden without the city,
and blood came out of the winepress,
even unto the horse bridles,
by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
A little more on the winepress.
Isa:63:3:
I have trodden the winepress alone;
and of the people there was none with me:
for I will tread them in mine anger,
and trample them in my fury;
and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments,
and I will stain all my raiment.
All of this can be summed up by this one verse.
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Isa:66:16:
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh:
and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Second Coming of Christ: Occurs at the end of the Battle of Armageddon/Yeshua will return to judge the earth
Revelation 1:1
Revelation 2:16
Revelation 3:11
Revelation 11:14
Revelation 22:7
Revelation 22:12
Revelation 22:20
A few at the start of the list I would reject as being a reference to the 7th trump. The ones to the Churches would be when they are judged and given
rewards or sent into great tribulation, the 7th trump.
Re:11 covers His arrival, so does Ch:10
Re:10:7:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel,
when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished,
as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Men have been judged prior to the sound of that trump. Repenting worked before this as a means to have sins forgiven. When that trumpet sound they
cannot repent, Re:16 confirms that none even try. The sorting in Daniel 12 comes after the last verse in the pervious chapter.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.
Da:12:1:
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
every one that shall be found written in the book.
Da:12:2:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Da:12:3:
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;
and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
The 'they' in verse 3 could be the 24 men who come down from Heaven with Christ and the Angelic Ary of Heaven.and it would be their task to teach the
newlyv resurrected Israel and the Glorified Church
Re:3:12:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God,
and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Sequence of events:
Matthew 24:29 – 30
And at that time the righteous are gathered and given rewards above being given eternal life. Certain traits would seem to warrent a slightly different
task in the New Earth. Some have crown, some are pillars
M't:24:31:
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.
The wicked are also gathered at this time.
M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Subjects Involved: (2 Thessalonians 1:7 & 8; Revelation 19:14)
Angels (various Scriptures)
Unbelievers (2 Thessalonians 1:8 & 9)
Who sees Event (Matthew 24:30; Revelation 1:7)
Jew (Zechariah 12:10)
Gentiles (all tribes of the earth)
Would that verse from Zec:12 be fulfillment of this verse?
M't:23:39:
For I say unto you,
Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Zec:13:1:
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec:13:2:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
saith the LORD of hosts,
that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land,
and they shall no more be remembered:
and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
The 2/3 of man that Christ kills in His return is the Judgment of the Gentiles based on the relationship with God that exists at that very time. For the
ones who experience the 2nd birth (baptism of the Holy Ghost) they stay alive and are the ones who are gathered in the twinkiling of an eye. They do not
ascend anywhere, they all head for Jerusalem to celebrate the return of Christ. When they get there it is still in ruins but the whole House is there
along with a Temple and a river that does what it says it does, heals everything it touches. All the new landscaping was there before the first two fro
anywhere entered the land that was now in the Kingdom of God (Eden). The mountain the 144,000 see things from might be near Caesarea Philippi as that is
that should be close where the vision of Moses and Elias took place.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Smiting of Nations:
2 Thessalonians 1:7 & 8
Revelation 19:11 & 12
Matthew 25:31 – 34
Salvation of Israel:
Romans 11:25 – 27
Daniel 12:13
“fullness of Gentiles” (Romans 11:25)
“Israel will be rescued” (Daniel 12:1 & Revelation 12:7 – 9)
Mostly agree with the stipulation that the same time Israel is being gathered the Righteous Gentiles are also being resurrected to life in the Nations.
Being resurrected from the grave is not the same as being gathered while being alive.
1Co:15:51:
Behold,
I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed,
1Co:15:52:
In a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Sheep & Goat Judgment (Matthew 25:31 – 44): Unbelievers judged and removed from the earth
Zechariah 14:1 – 11
Matthew 10:7
Matthew 24:14
Matthew 24:29 – 44
Acts 1:9 – 11
Revelation 1:7
Revelation 19:11-21
The goats are not unbelievers, they are the ones who claim Christ as Lord yet do not do the things that Jesus said they should do. Unbielierers are not under the rule that they do the things to help the less fortunate. Much the same for Israel as shown via the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus. One is sent to hell. For a Gentile it is 1.000 years, for Israel it is the time between Christ being handed the keys to death and hell and the time their resurrection is slated for. It maight be less but 3 days and 3 nights was enough for Jonah to repent.
The goats are sent to hell for the next 1,000 years. There could be a few who don't make it Heaven. Those are the ones whose bones are gathered and
placed in a specific place for the time Satan is bound. I have a hard time finding any verses that obsolve them of that specific sin. It is said that at
the time the bones are being gathered they are robbing them of the same thing they were robbed of. At the most basic level that is life itself, if robbed of a life a dead person only has his resurrected life to be robbed of.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Believers enter the Kingdom Age; Known as the Millennium (1,000 year reign) - (Revelation 20:4 & 6): The duration of this period will be
approximately 1,000 years – the Believer’s that were Raptured will reign with Yeshua.
Isaiah 11:1 – 9
Daniel 2:44
Mathew 19:28
1 Corinthians 6:2
2 Timothy 2:12
Revelation 5:10
Revelation 20:6
Revelation 22: – 6
Most likely it will be exactly 1,000 years. That way all the remnanat from the Nations will be in Jerusalem for the yearly feast of the Tabernacles.
Such bad luck for Satan to come against the Nations when they are all in the Camp of the Saints. What is practiced on Earth during the 1,000 years is a
mirror of what occurs on the New Earth. Everybody who was alive for the 1,000 years qualifies as Saints, as such they are approved for residence in the
Holy City, New Jerusalem. It is their flock that is out living eternal lives in the New Earth. They journey to New Jerusalem from time to time. Some for
regular festivals and at other times to have a baby baptised. That is how long it takes to be shown all the things a Saint knows and can do, in terms of
authority over others.
Isaiah 11:1 – 9
Daniel 2:44
Mathew 19:28
1 Corinthians 6:2
2 Timothy 2:12
Revelation 5:10
Revelation 20:6
Revelation 22:4 – 6
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Lucifer and his horde bound in the abyss. The Believers that came out of the Tribulation period and died for their belief in God, will join
those who had previously been Raptured, and together they will reign with Yeshua as judges, mayors, governors, ect. In the new earth: the curse will be
lifted from the earth and the animals, and the desert will blossom like the rose, and there will be plenty of food.
Isaiah 14:12 – 14
Ezekiel 28
Revelation 12:7 – 17
Revelation 20:1 – 10
Re:20 is the New Earth, the 1,000 years is an example of how things will be done. What is done in the 1,000 years is most likely lost during the fire from Heaven that sends Satan into the lake. There woun't be a great revival of the beasts of the field until the New Earth. Beasts of the field could not ascend to Heaven because they are innocent of the knowledge of good and evil. This is as close as I have found to people heading to Heaven. The next event on the list is Judgment Day.
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Yet, even though Yeshua will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and knowledge of the Lord will permeate the whole earth, rebellion will still raise
its head and the children born to these Millennium saints will turn against Yeshua, clearly indicating that a perfect world does not guarantee a perfect
life. Evil wears three faces: Luciferic influences/the world systems/fleshly desires. Change on the outside (Nirvana (a perfect environment), if you
please) will not change what needs to be perfected on the inside. Even though Lucifer and the world system are gone, some will still rebel against
God.
No, there is no sinners in the Kingdom of God. The ones that rally with Satan after the 1.000 years are fallen angels and ones like this.
M't:8:28:
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes,
there met him two possessed with devils,
coming out of the tombs,
exceeding fierce,
so that no man might pass by that way.
M't:8:29:
And,
behold,
they cried out,
saying,
What have we to do with thee,
Jesus,
thou Son of God?
art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
I would also think the bones that were gathered would be included here. If they are from men then those men are lost to the lake. If they are from the army of 200m then they are angelic and it is simply their time of judgment by God Almighty.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Lucifer’s Release: After the 1,000 year reign of Yeshua and the Believer’s, Lucifer will be released to deceive the Nations again (those
children born to the Believer’s during the Millennium). This happening will justify the final “eternal punishment”.
Revelation 20:7 – 9
Great White Throne Judgment: Revelation 20:10 – 15
Earth destroyed: 2 Peter 3
Only believers enter the 1,000 years. They will be a static population, neither Israel or the remnant of the Nations increase inb number. Apparently God has a certain number in mind when it comes to who lives inside New Jerusalem.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
The “heavens” will pass away; the elements will be destroyed; and the earth will burn up (vv. 10 & 12). Most likely the “heavens” used in this passage
represents the stellar spaces – planetary systems, and the galaxies – including our own planet and its surrounding atmosphere. In the New Covenant, the
word “elements” is always used in reference to the most basic form of something – time, force, energy, space, matter, and motion – also, in the original
language the word destroyed means loosed. ‘The earth will be burned up’ is a literal phrase. The planet we live on now will be destroyed by fire.
Because of this, the Great White Throne judgment will take place in space somewhere since the earth will no longer exist.
And after that New Jerusalem will descend to a New Earth. I would argue that the New Earth has grown just as much as New Jerusalem has outsised the old Jerusalem we know. Don't really have a verse that says that but life grows so it cannot ever get 'full'. Maybe that is where this comnes into play.
Heb:1:2:
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;
If we get a New Earth the Angels and such would also recieve a New Heaven.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Final Judgment and Eternal banishment to the Lake of Fire for Lucifer and those he deceived
Not really, since they died death may have covered what grace could not cover. The price of sin is death. One would come out of death sin-free, another sin would have to be committed before that new life could be taken away (by being sent to the lake)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Eternity with God for the Faithful Saints! A New heaven and New Erath; no more pain and sorrow! This is the ultimate destiny for the Believers.
We are given no glimpse into what this new place holds for us other than we will be with Yeshua forever and ever.
Psalm 102:25 & 26
Matthew 5:18
Matthew 24:35
Mark 13:31
Luke 21:33
Hebrews 1:10 – 12
2 Peter 3:7
2 Peter 10 – 13
Revelation 20:11
Revelation 21:1
Revelation 21 – 22
The method used to gather all people is not done at the very same time. Some at the start of the thousand years and more at the Great White Throne.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
We can be assured that heaven is not a foggy place hidden by a drifting cloud cover, or an unending space trip; it is not something that is vague or
nebulous. It is a place … an actual location. Yeshua told the Disciples that it is a prepared spot (John 14:1 – 3). But it is also more: in heaven we
will enjoy living quarters in the house of God! Though it will be different than what we are used to on earth, it will be the BEST of places! In heaven
there will be:
We will be face to face with Jesus for the 1,000 years, then we meet God, the the new things are revealed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Face to face fellowship with Yeshua (1 Corinthians 13:12; 1 John 3:1 – 2; Revelation 22:4)
God will also be on Earth in New Jerusalem.
Re:22:4:
And they shall see his face;
and his name shall be in their foreheads.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
A full and complete knowledge enjoyed by every resident (1 Corinthians 13:12)
That come with the promise of 'protection from straying for event the least in the Kingdom.
Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
There will be abundance (Revelation 21:6)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
There will be a shining, brilliant beauty/ a celestial city (Revelation 21:10 -21)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
There will be meaningful service (Revelation 22:3)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
There will be worship (various Scriptures)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Kingdom Age Scriptures
Isaiah 2:4
Isaiah 4:5 7 6
Isaiah 9:6 & 7
Isaiah 11:6 & 9
Isaiah 12:4 & 5
Isaiah 29:17 – 19
Isaiah 30:23 – 26
Isaiah 33:24
Isaiah 35:1 – 7
Isaiah 42:6 & 7
Isaiah 54:14 & 15
Isaiah 55:12
Isaiah 60:19
Isaiah 65:19
Isaiah 65:23
Isaiah 65:25
Pretty much agree with all of the above with the stipulation that the 1,000 years are before the New Earth but things operate the same way except that dominion over Beasts of the Fields is just renewed only in the New Earth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Mockers: Peter told us that there would be mockers, and he outlined the argument of the mockers. The term mocker means “to be a child; to play
with something as a child plays with a toy.” Therefore, a mocker is a skeptic – an individual who plays with that which is both serious and precious.
The mockers favorite argument is: “where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues as it has since the
beginning.” In essence they accuse Christians (the 1st century Believer to today’s Believers) of making rash predictions that they cannot count on
happening. However, we must keep in mind that God’s logical timing is not the same logic as ours; any seeming delay in Yeshua’s return is
purposed by God to allow men and women everywhere the opportunity to respond to His promise of hope, forgiveness, and mercy.
2 Peter 3:3 & 4
2 Peter 3:8 & 9
Scriptures are enough to determine if it is from God or not. They treatment others recieve is the best indicator of all.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
BYW … Abraham, the Father of the Jews was originally from Ur too; and really what difference does it make where anyone comes from when God calls them to
follow Him? It’s not the ethnic background of a Jew that makes them a Jew … it’s the consecration to God as His Chosen People; ALL THE JEWS ARE CHOSEN,
and those in the end will be saved: ALL JEWS WILL BE SAVED. Not because they reside in Israel when Yeshua returns, but because they belong to God and
God will not go back on his promise to them.
Well you and a few others seem to be under the impression being one of the 12 tribes has certain advantages. I agree that it does, but that comes at a price, you also suffer some things that Gentiles are exempt from. Who do you think is the ones who have been given much.
Lu:12:47:
And that servant,
which knew his lord's will,
and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will,
shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lu:12:48:
But he that knew not,
and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given,
of him shall be much required:
and to whom men have committed much,
of him they will ask the more.
The above is about Christians and non-believers. The real punishment for the non-believers is that they miss the first 1,000 of eternity
and all that it entails. Being called great instead of least is just one example. Shepherd or flock is another one.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/4/2009 12:15:19 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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I have copied the reply you sent to document so that I can study it away from the computer ... my asthma is kicking up and it is further complicated by the sniffles. So I'm going to be laying low for a few days (unless God heals me; which would be wonderful! So far weak lungs appear to be my 'thorn in the flesh'. LOL)
Anyway, if you do not see a reply from me in the next 24 hours, it isn't because I am ignoring you - I'll be sleeping. I will reply though. Be patient :-) I enjoy this.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/4/2009 9:15:53 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Anyway, if you do not see a reply from me in the next 24 hours, it isn't because I am ignoring you - I'll be sleeping. I will reply though. Be patient :-) I enjoy this.[/font][/size]
Take your time. I enjoy conversations like this also.
Edit to add.
In the time you are resting and reading you might want to read something like this also.
http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/asthma.html
For other reasons, I take 2 tbls of ACV with a touch of baking soda and toss it back all at once. It has a neutral taste. Plain vinegar works just as well if availability is an issue. Getting the mixture to 7.6 ph would be optimal.
Again, for other reasons, I deeply inhale a few drops of 3% hydrogen peroxide that is delivered as a fine mist. It is quite gentile on the lungs if you can suppress (the urge)prolonged harsh coughing. This method delivers the waste product to the bottom of the lungs so it is expelled by the blood not by the air.
At my age, over 55 under 60, I nap almost as soon as I lay back to watch a movie. 2-3 days to watch one movie, lol, no wonder the years seem to flu by faster the older you get (starting sometime just before the big 40).
Aging was why there are verses that go past the thorn in the side. It is about how a person feels about death in later years. The NT has it as a conflict to the choice of stay with the body or leave the body and the next thing you are aware of is that you are with Christ. The OT has the best picture of what happens to our bodies as it ages and then it dies. This verse, from a much longer passage about aging, that describes the back and the teeth.
Ec:12:3:
In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble,
and the strong men shall bow themselves,
and the grinders cease because they are few,
and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
< Message edited by Wayfaring Stranger -- 11/4/2009 10:55:52 AM >
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/5/2009 3:31:01 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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Take your time. I enjoy conversations like this also.
Thanks :-) I have doing a lot of nothing today but conserving energy and trying to regain strength. I have been looking over what you posted and have been researching Scriptures and writing my notes out longhand - which I hope to get to document - and forum this weekend. I have a few more things to look into concerning the stuff you posted, but I should have it concluded soon.
I will check the earthclinic link after I log off here. And thanks for the other natural aides that you posted; I prefer holistic which is why my lungs are so inflamed: I have been avoiding the inhalers I keep on hand for emergencies and my husband is quite upset with me at the moment, but I hate using them because of the steroids in them. Plus they leave an awful aftertaste and I feel like I’m on speed. Anyway, I will check out the link tonight … and see what they have at the Health Food Store tomorrow; I have a list of natural medicinal herbs that will help if they have them in stock.
At my age, over 55 under 60, I nap almost as soon as I lay back to watch a movie. 2-3 days to watch one movie, lol, no wonder the years seem to flu by faster the older you get (starting sometime just before the big 40).
LOL. I can totally identify with this.
The NT has it as a conflict to the choice of stay with the body or leave the body and the next thing you are aware of is that you are with Christ.
I’m ready :-). The only reason I’m still here on earth is because God wants me here … left up to me; I’d be with HIM! I like life, and I have a good life; very little to complain about, so I try not to – however, I’m ready to step off planet earth and into eternity whenever God decides it’s time.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/5/2009 9:32:34 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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I'll refrain from adding anything until I get a reply. please feel free to cut it back to a few specific posts. Longhand, I wasn't aware people did that very much anymore. I remember my mother could write in something called shorthand, I would really have liked to learned that style of writing, a whole sentence in just a few squiggles. wow Even the grandkids would find it useful considering how much texting they do. Would it not save you some time and energy to type directly into an net-book or something that could be very portable yet functional and only requires you actually do the.
The fastest way to get set-up is to use a nasal-spray bottle with drug-store variety 3% hydrogen peroxide. Since this is pointed at the very back of the throat I would strongly recommend using some tape to doubly secure the sprat-tip to the bottle to prevent any accidental separation of the two and sending that tip down your throat.. If taste is an issue you could make it a 2% solution. Less than 1..5% is the same as doing nothing. The first few times you will get foaming in the back of the throat. In my case I did 3 full squeezes twice a day.
Some things in any store would be very expensive and the quality would be suspect. Ozonated water is one such product, you have to make this yourself for it to be effective as the extra oxygen is gone within 20 minutes or so. Colloidal Silver is another product that should not be purchased. You can make your own easily and inexpensively, like $3 once you have the pure silver wire. It is used by the tbls/day for most situations. I mention this product because I once read a paper about it being combined with the Hydrogen Peroxide before being inhaled. It is most likely still available but it didn't apply in my case because the reason I do it has nothing to do with the silver being used to fight a bacterial type of infection. A 3% with CS would be used to fight colds or other such things, it has a list of about 600 things it is effective against. If this would upset friends and family you could download an MSDS sheet on 3% Hydrogen Peroxide, then download the one on 35% Hydrogen Peroxide for a comparison. My intake would add up to about 6 drops/day taken for a week by week basis. The above topics might be worth reading and one that may not apply at all but still, if something can strip malaria from the body in a few days and is readily available at a very cheap price and it is effective against a variety of 'ailments' it is promoted by a man called Jim Humbolt and the product is MMS.
I'm quite sure such treatments (basically free) are there by the hand of God. The current retailers are now starting to have some band-aid products that specify silver so some 'old ways' are showing to still be effective against the 'new strains' of infectious diseases.
Anyway, take your time, it sometimes takes me a week before I'm satisfied with some reply I want to make.
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/6/2009 4:05:40 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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I don’t even think kids write longhand in school anymore. LOL! But I like to write, and longhand is sometimes quicker than typing – plus it’s relaxing. MPO.
Anyway, this is what I have come up with so far while reclining in the recliner and reading Scripture …
The 7 Churches -
Revelation 2:1 – 7, is a BUSY Body of Believers. Always full of activity, yet not getting much accomplished.
Revelation 2:8 – 11, Is PERSECUTED FROM WITHIN. This Body of Believer’s suffers from the Judas kiss; two-faced backstabbers dwell within the Body.
Revelation 2:12 – 17, is CORRUPTED. There is idol worship and immorality in the Body; embracing decadence and teaching dishonest doctrines.
Revelation 2:18 – 29, is FALSE. This body is cultic in nature; embracing trendy and unusual philosophies more than Biblical truths.
Revelation 3:1 – 6, is a WORLDLY Body of Believer’s; apathetic and morally lax, it is “sleeping” instead of being aware of the time.
Revelation 3:7 – 13, is a MESSIANIC Body of Believers; this is a “true” Body, holding fast to what is God’s Will despite the wickedness that comes against it. This Church is the Bride of Christ, which will hold true and be rescued.
Revelation 3:14 – 22, is INDIFFERENT; proud, this Church believes it needs nothing … not even God.
Reading what the Scriptures say and how Yeshua describes each Church, I believe that the true children of God (those who hold and Invitation to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb: the Bride) are depicted in Revelation 3:7 – 13. They will be called out of the other Body’s because the other “churches” have kicked God out of their assemblies and embrace wickedness. I do not believe that a child of God has anything at all in common with the other churches; therefore I do not think the Bride “could qualify for one of those positions”.
Scriptures of Righteousness in context: Job 36:3 – Psalm 97:2 – Isaiah 64:61 – Romans 4: 5 & 8:10 – 2 Peter 3:13 & Hebrews 11:7. It is by righteousness through Yeshua that we overcome; we do not overcome to become righteous.
Scriptures concerning Yeshua, Heir to the Throne: Psalm 45:6 & 103:19 – Isaiah 66:1 – Matthew 5:34 – Revelation 4:2 & 20:11. Yeshua will sit on the Throne of God! He does not need the earthly throne of King David, which was only a symbol of the promised Kingdom to come: 2 Samuel 3:10 & 7:13 – 1 Kings 2:4 – 1 Chronicles 29:23 – Daniel 7:9 & Luke 1:32. David’s throne was just a foreshadow of the Messianic Age. David was hand-picked of God to produce the lineage through which Yeshua would be born into humanity, but David was not immortal, nor was he a pseudo-god. The throne of David is not God’s goal for Yeshua, but it was a promise given to the Chosen People and God honored it by utilizing it for Yeshua's human lineage.
Scripture about The House of Prayer: Isaiah 56:7 speaks of the Kingdom Age when the saints will rule with Yeshua and all mankind will go up yearly to worship the King in Zion. Yeshua has returned to the earth and His Millennium rule has begun.
Scriptures concerning the “remnant” that will go up to Zion: Zechariah 14:16. These are the Jewish survivors of the Tribulation period (the Jewish over-comer’s who kept The Faith), who enter the Kingdom age with Yeshua and the Raptured Saints who returned with Yeshua in the Second Coming.
As to the Rapture … no where in Scripture are the Believer’s told they will go through the wrath to come on the earth – they won’t be here during the tribulation period; all the focus will be on Israel, not the Church … which will be with Yeshua until after Armageddon. Instead we are told to “look up” and “watch” for the Rapture which will be secret and instantaneous. I personally understand Scripture to tell me this will happen 3-1/2 years into the tribulation timeframe where the Antichrist will walk among us. The Rapture is called the Rapture by Believer’s expecting this blessed event because it is a “whisking away of the Bride by the Bridegroom”. A Jewish custom of the Bridegroom coming at an unexpected hour (that only He knows of) is unveiled in the Scriptures telling the Church to “be ready”. Yeshua’s Bride (the True Church), are to watch and wait for the Bridegrooms coming for her: it could be at any given time and if she faithfully looks for his appearance, she will not be caught unawares when he comes to fetch her. It will be like this when Yeshua comes for His Bride. It will be secret and only those looking for Him and listening for His call will be caught up and carried away. The Rapture is our expectation! The rapture is not the second Coming. The Rapture is when the saints are CALLED UP to be with Yeshua; the 2nd Coming is when the saints are BROUGHT BACK DOWN to earth to reign with Yeshua in the Kingdom age. TWO DIFFERENT OCCURANCES at TWO DIFFERENT TIMES.
In reading the Scriptures you posted (Revelation 11:18 & Revelation 19:8), I see the Rapture – the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (19:8 & 9) and the Second Coming of Yeshua (11:18). Let’s break it down –
Revelation 11:18:
“And the nations were angry” – Battle of Armageddon
“and they wrath is come” – 2nd Coming at battle’s end
“and the time of the dead, that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints (Daniel 12:3; Matthew 25:23)” – speaks concerning the Tribulation Saints, who wear robes of white.
“and them that feat thy name, small and great”; - those who are saved at the Second Coming
“and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.” – clearly a 2nd Coming reference
Revelation 19:8:
“And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” – Church in Bridal Dress
Revelation 19:9:
“And He said unto me, ‘Write, blessed are they which are called unto the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.” – the Raptured Church: Bride of Yeshua.
I don’t know where you got the Tribulation teaching you posted, but I found it hard to follow as it didn’t make any sense to me at all. Sorry :-) These are Scriptural references to the tribulation that bolster what I posted earlier: Isaiah 1:7 – 9 – Zechariah 14:1 & 2 – Luke 21:20 – 24 & Revelation 7:13 &14.
I broke down the Scriptures you supplied, and this is my conclusion as to their meaning …
Matthew 24:14:
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then the end shall come.” – this is happening NOW; the past century has produced the great harvest proclaimed by Yeshua when he walked on earth; the fields are now ripe for the holy sickle!
Matthew 24:15:
“When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)” – this will take place after the Rapture of the Church; the last 3-1/2 years of the tribulation period when the Church will be with Yeshua, enjoying the marriage banquet and receiving her rewards.
Matthew 24:16:
“Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:” – this will take place when the Antichrist comes into his power … after the rapture of the Church.
I’ll post more later. The storm here is really kicking up a fuss, so best shut the computer down until the winds die down. BTW, I have checked the natural- medicinal link you suggested above, and it has many beneficial points. Thanks :-)
And to anyone lurking who wants to accuse me again of lifting copyright materials and posting them ... THESE ARE MY OWN WORDS. I will be happy to supply a scan of my handwritten notes that supplied the body of this post, but even that may be doubted by the mockers ...
< Message edited by sureclarity -- 11/6/2009 4:16:24 AM >
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RE: the "Proud one," Egypt!" - 11/7/2009 5:01:03 PM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
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Hi,
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
I don’t even think kids write longhand in school anymore. LOL! But I like to write, and longhand is sometimes quicker than typing – plus it’s relaxing. MPO.
Anyway, this is what I have come up with so far while reclining in the recliner and reading Scripture …
The 7 Churches -
Each of those Churches has an Angel as it's head so the Gospel being preached in Revelation means even at that late point salvation is still possible. As to who are the members of those Churches I would think they are also described in one of the earliest verses in Revelation. It would include everybody on the earth, God would just look at each person and say this is the Church you belong in based on what you 'think of me'. The time of sorting is on the day of His return. 2/3 of men will die that day, the remaining 1/3 would be the overcomers from those 7 Churches. They are also called the remnant of the Nations during the 1,000 years, they are not sinners, they next are presented to God as Priests and Kings just prior to the Great White Throne. Just after that presentation God turns His attention to the ones called 'the rest'. Because they come the the graves their previous sins are paid in full. They are welcomed into the Kingdom of God and given a set of Laws that need to be obeyed if they are to stay out of the fiery lake, the 2nd death.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Revelation 2:1 – 7, is a BUSY Body of Believers. Always full of activity, yet not getting much accomplished.
Good points are more than what some Churches get but because of her shortcoming she could lose it all. Law #1 today is about loving God. Putting anyone/anything in that position is breaking the 1st Law.
Re:2:2:
I know thy works,
and thy labour,
and thy patience,
and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles,
and are not,
and hast found them liars:
Re:2:3:
And hast borne,
and hast patience,
and for my name's sake hast laboured,
and hast not fainted.
Re:2:6:
But this thou hast,
that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans,
which I also hate.
Bad points that need to be overcome by the sound of the 7th trump. When it says Christ will come quickly that is a reference to the 6th plague in Re:16:15. Rather than rewards she is punished.
Re:2:4:
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee,
because thou hast left thy first love.
Re:2:5:
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen,
and repent,
and do the first works;
or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place,
except thou repent.
Rewards promised for overcoming has no specific verse for this one Church. Having the candlestick remain is the reward I would think. One of the 7 that are in the same place as God's throne and the 4 Beasts and the 24 Saints. Rewards/punishments are given out at the same time for all Churches. All overcomers would share this reward. They are invited into New Jerusalem.
Re:2:7:
He that hath an ear,
let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Revelation 2:8 – 11, Is PERSECUTED FROM WITHIN. This Body of Believer’s suffers from the Judas kiss; two-faced backstabbers dwell within the Body.
Good points help them during the time when Satan is active on the earth. They are in the resurrection.
Re:2:9:
I know thy works,
and tribulation,
and poverty,
(but thou art rich)
and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews,
and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Re:2:10:
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer:
behold,
the devil shall cast some of you into prison,
that ye may be tried;
and ye shall have tribulation ten days:
be thou faithful unto death,
and I will give thee a crown of life.
Bad points that need to be overcome are not given as their death covers those shortcomings.
Rewards promised for overcoming is immunity from falling into sin again which would result in the 2nd death of any person. Grace does not cover sins committed after being given the 2nd birth. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is part of the rewards that are given out at His return.
Re:2:11:
He that hath an ear, l
et him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Revelation 2:12 – 17, is CORRUPTED. There is idol worship and immorality in the Body; embracing decadence and teaching dishonest doctrines.
Good points.
Re:2:13:
I know thy works,
and where thou dwellest,
even where Satan's seat is:
and thou holdest fast my name,
and hast not denied my faith,
even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr,
who was slain among you,
where Satan dwelleth.
Bad points that need to be overcome are again give right up to when Christ returns. That sword is used once, it is part of the 7th trump as it is associated with this verse. Re:19:21
Re:2:14:
But I have a few things against thee,
because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam,
who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel,
to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Re:2:15:
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans,
which thing I hate.
Re:2:16:
Repent;
or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rewards promised for overcoming as again a verse that applies to all believers in all 7 Churches.
Re:2:17:
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna,
and will give him a white stone,
and in the stone a new name written,
which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Revelation 2:18 – 29, is FALSE. This body is cultic in nature; embracing trendy and unusual philosophies more than Biblical truths.
Good points are said to be rewarded when Christ comes again. Again that is only at the 7th trump.
Re:2:19:
I know thy works,
and charity,
and service,
and faith,
and thy patience,
and thy works;
and the last to be more than the first.
Re:2:24:
But unto you I say,
and unto the rest in Thyatira,
as many as have not this doctrine,
and which have not known the depths of Satan,
as they speak;
I will put upon you none other burden.
Re:2:25:
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Bad points that need to be overcome include being put into the 3rd woe (all of the vials) . Only the 3rd woe is considered to be great tribulation. Two reasons, it is also called the wrath of God and it is seperated from the two woes associated with Satan's given time which is also called tribulation. This church has to be active on Earth when Christ returns.
Re:2:20:
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee,
because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel,
which calleth herself a prophetess,
to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication,
and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Re:2:21:
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication;
and she repented not.
Re:2:22:
Behold,
I will cast her into a bed,
and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation,
except they repent of their deeds.
Re:2:23:
And I will kill her children with death;
and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:
and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rewards promised for overcoming are most likey meant for the New Earth. The 1,000 years on Earth is to show them how to do that. Iron stands for unbending rule. What applies on day 1 applies athroughout eternity. You don't enter the Kingdom of God as a Saint, you enter as a little child. Christ and the 24 Elders are the rulers for the 1,000 years. In the New Earth the ones alive for the 1,000 years are in the same role as the 24 are in the 1,000 years.
.
Re:2:26:
And he that overcometh,
and keepeth my works unto the end,
to him will I give power over the nations:
Re:2:27:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;
as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:
even as I received of my Father.
Re:2:28:
And I will give him the morning star.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Revelation 3:1 – 6, is a WORLDLY Body of Believer’s; apathetic and morally lax, it is “sleeping” instead of being aware of the time.
Good points so some of these will survive the two woes alive.
Re:3:4:
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments;
and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Bad points that need to be overcome are not judged until the vials are being poured out.
Re:3:2:
Be watchful,
and strengthen the things which remain,
that are ready to die:
for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Re:3:3:
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard,
and hold fast,
and repent.
If therefore thou shalt not watch,
I will come on thee as a thief,
and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rewards promised for overcoming start at the return of Christ and carry over to when Christ presents them to God as being Priests and Kings.
Re:3:5:
He that overcometh,
the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father,
and before his angels.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Revelation 3:7 – 13, is a MESSIANIC Body of Believers; this is a “true” Body, holding fast to what is God’s Will despite the wickedness that comes against it. This Church is the Bride of Christ, which will hold true and be rescued.
Good points include faith that faith is enough to not be taken in by anything Satan can do as part of the delusion that he is God.
Re:3:8:
I know thy works:
behold,
I have set before thee an open door,
and no man can shut it:
for thou hast a little strength,
and hast kept my word,
and hast not denied my name.
Re:3:9:
Behold,
I will make them of the synagogue of Satan,
which say they are Jews,
and are not,
but do lie;
behold,
I will make them to come and worship before thy feet,
and to know that I have loved thee.
Re:3:10:
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
which shall come upon all the world,
to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Bad points that need to be overcome seem more cautionary about not changing rather than specifics that need to be overcome.
Re:3:11:
Behold,
I come quickly:
hold that fast which thou hast,
that no man take thy crown.
Rewards promised for overcoming include becoming a resident of New Jerusalem in the New Earth.
Re:3:12:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God,
and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Revelation 3:14 – 22, is INDIFFERENT; proud, this Church believes it needs nothing … not even God.
Bad points that need to be overcome.
Re:3:15:
I know thy works,
that thou art neither cold nor hot:
I would thou wert cold or hot.
Re:3:16:
So then because thou art lukewarm,
and neither cold nor hot,
I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Re:3:17:
Because thou sayest,
I am rich,
and increased with goods,
and have need of nothing;
and knowest not that thou art wretched,
and miserable,
and poor,
and blind, and naked:
Rewards promised for overcoming would seem to require mercy from God at the Great White Throne. The list given seems to apply to the ones who are not alive at the end of Christ's first day. Isaiah 65 sheds some light on them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Reading what the Scriptures say and how Yeshua describes each Church, I believe that the true children of God (those who hold and Invitation to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb: the Bride) are depicted in Revelation 3:7 – 13. They will be called out of the other Body’s because the other “churches” have kicked God out of their assemblies and embrace wickedness. I do not believe that a child of God has anything at all in common with the other churches; therefore I do not think the Bride “could qualify for one of those positions”.
As I tried to point out above not all of the remaining 6 Churches are void of any reward and those rewards all come at the same time punishments are handed out. A Church cannot be rewarded before the separation of the overcomers from the ones who do not overcome.
Since this is the 'rapture church' they are not exempt from this verse, no matter how mature they think their belief is.
M't:18:3:
And said,
Verily I say unto you,
Except ye be converted,
and become as little children,
ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
That is how believers enter the Kingdom at Christ's return. They will have been in the kingdom for 1,000 years when the rest come alive at the Great White Throne.
A raptured church would not become the 'armies of Heaven' in just 7 years. That army does the gathering only.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Scriptures of Righteousness in context: Job 36:3 – Psalm 97:2 – Isaiah 64:61 – Romans 4: 5 & 8:10 – 2 Peter 3:13 & Hebrews 11:7. It is by righteousness through Yeshua that we overcome; we do not overcome to become righteous.
Job 36:3
Job does what I would consider a pretty decent outline of who God is in several places. Even then God points out that the wisdom Job has is barely a scratch in the surface. God gave Job a lot of wisdom about the grave (as being a place of punishment for sin) that would also one day be emptied.
Job:14:12:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job:14:13:
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
Job:14:14:
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Job:14:15:
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job even has knowledge that there will be wrath from God and he wants to be spared from that.
Psalm 97:2
The Isles is a reference to the Nations of the world
Isa:40:15:
Behold,
the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Isa:42:4:
He shall not fail nor be discouraged,
till he have set judgment in the earth:
and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isaiah 64:61
Not sure which verse is being referenced.
Romans 4: 5 & 8:10
Scripture also goes on to say this about faith.
Jas:2:14:
What doth it profit,
my brethren,
though a man say he hath faith,
and have not works?
can faith save him?
Jas:2:15:
If a brother or sister be naked,
and destitute of daily food,
Jas:2:16:
And one of you say unto them,
Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled;
notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
Jas:2:17:
Even so faith,
if it hath not works,
is dead,
being alone.
Jas:2:18:
Yea,
a man may say,
Thou hast faith,
and I have works:
shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas:2:19:
Thou believest that there is one God;
thou doest well:
the devils also believe,
and tremble.
Jas:2:20:
But wilt thou know,
O vain man,
that faith without works is dead?
Jas:2:21:
Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas:2:22:
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas:2:23:
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
Abraham believed God,
and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas:2:24:
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.
Jas:2:25:
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works,
when she had received the messengers,
and had sent them out another way?
Jas:2:26:
For as the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead also.
2 Peter 3:13
God puts in His appearance at the end of the 1,000 years, He is the one that sends Satan and the others to the lake.
Re:20:9:
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about,
and the beloved city:
and fire came down from God out of heaven,
and devoured them.
Re:20:10:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Hebrews 11:7
It was faith that God was right that was the inspiration for the ark be built. It is faith that these words are true that is inspiration to conduct yourself as these verses suggest.
1Pe:4:12:
Beloved,
think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you,
as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe:4:13:
But rejoice,
inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings;
that,
when his glory shall be revealed,
ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe:4:14:
If ye be reproached for the name of Christ,
happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you:
on their part he is evil spoken of,
but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe:4:15:
But let none of you suffer as a murderer,
or as a thief,
or as an evildoer,
or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe:4:16:
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian,
let him not be ashamed;
but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe:4:17:
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe:4:18:
And if the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Scriptures concerning Yeshua, Heir to the Throne: Psalm 45:6 & 103:19 – Isaiah 66:1 – Matthew 5:34 – Revelation 4:2 & 20:11. Yeshua will sit on the Throne of God! He does not need the earthly throne of King David, which was only a symbol of the promised Kingdom to come: 2 Samuel 3:10 & 7:13 – 1 Kings 2:4 – 1 Chronicles 29:23 – Daniel 7:9 & Luke 1:32. David’s throne was just a foreshadow of the Messianic Age. David was hand-picked of God to produce the lineage through which Yeshua would be born into humanity, but David was not immortal, nor was he a pseudo-god. The throne of David is not God’s goal for Yeshua, but it was a promise given to the Chosen People and God honored it by utilizing it for Yeshua's human lineage.
During the 1,000 years Satan is only bound, there is one last step to go before he is sent to the lake. During that time Israel is made the way God would do it, that includes an earthly temple and an earthly throne. The passage below says Christ will build/repair certain things and Israel will build/repair other things.
Am:9:8:
Behold,
the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom,
and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth;
saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,
saith the LORD.
Am:9:9:
For,
lo,
I will command,
and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations,
like as corn is sifted in a sieve,
yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Am:9:10:
All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword,
which say,
The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
Am:9:11:
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen,
and close up the breaches thereof;
and I will raise up his ruins,
and I will build it as in the days of old:
Am:9:12:
That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
and of all the heathen,
which are called by my name,
saith the LORD that doeth this.
Am:9:13:
Behold,
the days come,
saith the LORD,
that the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed;
and the mountains shall drop sweet wine,
and all the hills shall melt.
Am:9:14:
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel,
and they shall build the waste cities,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and drink the wine thereof;
they shall also make gardens,
and eat the fruit of them.
Am:9:15:
And I will plant them upon their land,
and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them,
saith the LORD thy God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Scripture about The House of Prayer: Isaiah 56:7 speaks of the Kingdom Age when the saints will rule with Yeshua and all mankind will go up yearly to worship the King in Zion. Yeshua has returned to the earth and His Millennium rule has begun.
These are the same ones in both references. The nations that come up against Christ are killed, so are the ones in the Nations that have been living carelessly, it is the ones who remain alive that attend the yearly feast of the tabernacles.
Eze:39:6:
And I will send a fire on Magog,
and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles:
and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Zec:14:12:
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;
Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet,
and their eyes shall consume away in their holes,
and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Scriptures concerning the “remnant” that will go up to Zion: Zechariah 14:16. These are the Jewish survivors of the Tribulation period (the Jewish over-comer’s who kept The Faith), who enter the Kingdom age with Yeshua and the Raptured Saints who returned with Yeshua in the Second Coming.
The ones in the Nations are killed because they killed people from the 12 tribes. The only ones from the 12 tribes that are alive are the 144,000. The rest are resurrected by the end of the day He kills many in the Nations.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
As to the Rapture … no where in Scripture are the Believer’s told they will go through the wrath to come on the earth – they won’t be here during the tribulation period; all the focus will be on Israel, not the Church … which will be with Yeshua until after Armageddon. Instead we are told to “look up” and “watch” for the Rapture which will be secret and instantaneous. I personally understand Scripture to tell me this will happen 3-1/2 years into the tribulation timeframe where the Antichrist will walk among us. The Rapture is called the Rapture by Believer’s expecting this blessed event because it is a “whisking away of the Bride by the Bridegroom”. A Jewish custom of the Bridegroom coming at an unexpected hour (that only He knows of) is unveiled in the Scriptures telling the Church to “be ready”. Yeshua’s Bride (the True Church), are to watch and wait for the Bridegrooms coming for her: it could be at any given time and if she faithfully looks for his appearance, she will not be caught unawares when he comes to fetch her. It will be like this when Yeshua comes for His Bride. It will be secret and only those looking for Him and listening for His call will be caught up and carried away. The Rapture is our expectation! The rapture is not the second Coming. The Rapture is when the saints are CALLED UP to be with Yeshua; the 2nd Coming is when the saints are BROUGHT BACK DOWN to earth to reign with Yeshua in the Kingdom age. TWO DIFFERENT OCCURANCES at TWO DIFFERENT TIMES.
Technically that is true, concerning wrath from God. There is no promise made that exempts anybody from tribulation. Technically Satan is behind two trumps, the 5th and the 6th trumps are also called woes, numbers 1 and 2 to be exact. Revelation 12 calls it a time of Satan's wrath and the ones that booted him out of Heaven are the armies that come with Christ. This event is also called tribulation but it is called great tribulation. Satan's wrath is given 42 months, in terms of destructive deeds all he can do in that time is overdone by the 3rd woe in about 3 1/2 hrs (the actual time is equal to when Jesus gave up the Holy Ghost and sundown of that day). Tribulation was forecast from almost the beginning of somebody called 'His People'. Why would God waste precious words meant for a people who were not going to be there?
De:4:27:
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.
De:4:28:
And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat, nor smell.
De:4:29:
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
De:4:31:
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;)
he will not forsake thee,
neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
Christians have authority to pray to God with as much authority as anybody who is alive today, if the Church was not here that verse would be meaningless for the 'latter days'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
In reading the Scriptures you posted (Revelation 11:18 & Revelation 19:8), I see the Rapture – the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (19:8 & 9) and the Second Coming of Yeshua (11:18). Let’s break it down –
Revelation 11:18:
“And the nations were angry” – Battle of Armageddon
That same theme is mentioned in other passages. One of the best sources for information about what happens when Christ arrives is the 12 books that follow Daniel 12:1 "at that time" is what the prophecies cover. Israel and the Gentiles are mentioned enough that their seperate paths can be eeked out of Scripture. Eeked out, in that while the NT may be mostly for the Nations some verses take on a different meaning when OT Prophecises about the arrival of the Messiah as King are given Revelations time-line. In simplist terms the times are in the NT, the fine details of the same event can only be found in the OT. For instance these are Holy Angels that are Christ's army from Heaven and they are searching for men, most likely the ones who are workers of iniquity.
Joe:2:2:
A day of darkness and of gloominess,
a day of clouds and of thick darkness,
as the morning spread upon the mountains:
a great people and a strong;
there hath not been ever the like,
neither shall be any more after it,
even to the years of many generations.
Joe:2:3:
A fire devoureth before them;
and behind them a flame burneth:
the land is as the garden of Eden before them,
and behind them a desolate wilderness;
yea,
and nothing shall escape them.
Joe:2:4:
The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses;
and as horsemen,
so shall they run.
Joe:2:5:
Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap,
like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble,
as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe:2:6:
Before their face the people shall be much pained:
all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe:2:7:
They shall run like mighty men;
they shall climb the wall like men of war;
and they shall march every one on his ways,
and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe:2:8:
Neither shall one thrust another;
they shall walk every one in his path:
and when they fall upon the sword,
they shall not be wounded.
Joe:2:9:
They shall run to and fro in the city;
they shall run upon the wall,
they shall climb up upon the houses;
they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe:2:10:
The earth shall quake before them;
the heavens shall tremble:
the sun and the moon shall be dark,
and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe:2:11:
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army:
for his camp is very great:
for he is strong that executeth his word:
for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
and who can abide it?
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
“and they wrath is come” – 2nd Coming at battle’s end
This is the wrath Christians are exempt from, this is the 3rd woe and it starts out very violently. Any notions that Jesus Christ is wishy-wash is vanished on that day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
“and the time of the dead, that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints (Daniel 12:3; Matthew 25:23)” – speaks concerning the Tribulation Saints, who wear robes of white.
This would start with the dead being resurrected, everybody from Israel that would make them a 'whole people' in terms of family trees. The prophets would be the writers of Scripture more or less, it ended with the last words in Revelation. Saints are certainly the 24 around the throne but they are in Heaven before so they are their now. The best example of 'elders' is some who were alive before the flood and some, like Moses, lived until 120.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
“and them that feat thy name, small and great”; - those who are saved at the Second Coming
Also true, that is the Church, the small ones. The ones that know about the Kingdom of God through a book, or a teaching from that same book. That is how little we can mean to God at that time. Reading a book or reading and talking about that book does not make us Saints, it inspires fear of God.. Saints have certain abilities that are beyond just reading. The 24 around the Throne of God Almighty are Saints in every respect, the two witnesses are either during their ministry or when resurrected..
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
“and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.” – clearly a 2nd Coming reference
Commonly called 'that day' in the whole OT, not just the 12 books after Daniel..
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Revelation 19:8:
“And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” – Church in Bridal Dress
Cleansed at the arrival, the fine cloth is given just then so that is the first thing associated with being a Saint. 1,000 years later they know all there is to know, Israel and Gentiles from the 1,000 years go on to become residents of New Jerusalem who are hosts to those who come for various reasons to there. It would seem to be similar to 'fair days' in most places.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Revelation 19:9:
“And He said unto me, ‘Write, blessed are they which are called unto the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.” – the Raptured Church: Bride of Yeshua.
I believe there is something in the OT that states that a bridegroom cannot go to fight in any wars until one full years has expired past the wedding day. In the above Christ is the bringer of wrath so all wrath must be over before the 'fair days' can begin. That is possible with the vials being poured out in just a few hours and then resurrection of the dead that are part of the 'blessed'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
I don’t know where you got the Tribulation teaching you posted, but I found it hard to follow as it didn’t make any sense to me at all. Sorry :-) These are Scriptural references to the tribulation that bolster what I posted earlier: Isaiah 1:7 – 9 – Zechariah 14:1 & 2 – Luke 21:20 – 24 & Revelation 7:13 &14.
Do you mean the one that says men go to Heaven only one time in Scripture and that it is a tour group in that everybody ever born goes there at the very same time? Some are called priests and kings, the others are called 'the rest'. The odds are everybody is inside New Jerusalem when it descends to the barren new world.
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Re:21:9:
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues,
and talked with me,
saying,
Come hither,
I will shew thee the bride,
the Lamb's wife.
Re:21:10:
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain,
and shewed me that great city,
the holy Jerusalem,
descending out of heaven from God,
That is my whole rapture doctrine. lol ..... except for the identity of the one with Christ, it is the 'beloved Disciple' , one of the two that was sent to follow Jesus by John the Baptist.
Isaiah 1:7 – 9
About Israel and the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are the remnant. The only ones that are alive when Christ arrives. By the end ofr that 1st day all 12 tribes are whole again. The term remnant now belongs to the Gentiles. They become whole again only at Judgment Day. some 1,000 years in the future.
Zechariah 14:1 & 2
Only two people are defending Jerusalem at that end times. The time given the two wittness is enough to cover anything Satan can desire....until their ministry is complete, that is when the city can be taken. That is when the time of the Gentiles ends, the people that are sending gifts back and fort are Gentiles, the Merchants in the verses below are Gentiles.
Re:18:10:
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment,
saying,
Alas,
alas,
that great city Babylon,
that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Re:18:11:
And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her;
for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Re:18:12:
The merchandise of gold,
and silver,
and precious stones,
and of pearls,
and fine linen,
and purple,
and silk,
and scarlet,
and all thyine wood,
and all manner vessels of ivory,
and all manner vessels of most precious wood,
and of brass,
and iron,
and marble,
Re:18:13:
And cinnamon,
and odours,
and ointments,
and frankincense,
and wine,
and oil,
and fine flour,
and wheat,
and beasts,
and sheep,
and horses,
and chariots,
and slaves,
and souls of men.
Re:18:14:
And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee,
and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee,
and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Re:18:15:
The merchants of these things,
which were made rich by her,
shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment,
weeping and wailing,
The men in the above have permission from the original 10 given kingdoms by the Beast from the Pit, the same one that kills the two witnesses and is then sent to the lake some 3 1/2 days after that abomination. As bad as that is the sin that reaches into Heaven is the marking of men for worship to somebody who is not God. That gets immediate action. It is called the 3rd woe or the 7 vials or the 7th trump, they are one in the same when it comes to that day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
I broke down the Scriptures you supplied, and this is my conclusion as to their meaning …
As long as a theory has support in Scripture I should listen.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Matthew 24:14:
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then the end shall come.” – this is happening NOW; the past century has produced the great harvest proclaimed by Yeshua when he walked on earth; the fields are now ripe for the holy sickle!
And it has for some time in the past and probabily will continue on into more than a few deacades. It has an ending, so far I do not believe this is our teacher.
Re:14:6:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth,
and to every nation,
and kindred,
and tongue,
and people,
That is not unlike the verse from the introductory chapter.
Re:1:7:
Behold,
he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so,
Amen.
Re:14 is moments away from angels being sent to the sorting and the bring them all before Christ. Satan's Babylon is in ruins (frogs in the vials). There are an awefull lot of verses that expire during those few hours. That is what twinkling of an eye means, it isn;t some decades long thing. That is how we men do things, over decades and centuries. Christ is more like a door being slamned.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Matthew 24:15:
“When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)” – this will take place after the Rapture of the Church; the last 3-1/2 years of the tribulation period when the Church will be with Yeshua, enjoying the marriage banquet and receiving her rewards.
Daniel 11 has such a phrase and it is in the last kingships before Christs. That one has nothing to do with the abominations mentioned in Ch:9. This one is the image that is built at the instruction of the Beasts of Revelation. When that image can be on Holy Ground in Jerusalem after the two lay dead in the streets then you might be able to fake Scripture. As it is that is when worship can be demanded, that is when the Gospel is preached to those alive (and in peril) are being given assistance from Heaven. They may not escape with their lives but the fact that they died while going in that direction is proof enough that they deserve as much as the rest will get. It is the wicked who remain in the grave.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
Matthew 24:16:
“Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:” – this will take place when the Antichrist comes into his power … after the rapture of the Church.
How does this sound, when the two are killed it will seem like Christ has arrived, the 'deluded200
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