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putting tithes on credit cards - 10/27/2009 6:14:32 PM
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ckgirl
Posts: 3
Joined: 10/27/2009
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My church is considering allowing its members to place their tithe on a credit cards. I am very uncomfortable with this idea. I know the Bible speaks out against going into debt, so I was wondering how churches can justify allowing members to be indebted to a credit card company in order to tithe.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/27/2009 7:38:58 PM
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LCannon
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Personally if(when)my assembly has resorted to that level of funding I will seriously examine my church's priorities and redistribute my participation in the(any)ministry.
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''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/27/2009 7:49:57 PM
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Miss Giggles
Posts: 5192
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Cards are a tool. They are not evil.
Each person has to take responsibility and donate what they can afford/and are led to. Im sure there are plenty of checks that get written that bounce.
Obviously a church wouldn't have signed up with a payment processor and pay the fees if they didn't feel they'd get some benefit out of it.
One benefit that isn't mentioned so far is the electronic records.. easier to keep track of.
< Message edited by Miss Giggles -- 10/27/2009 8:50:23 PM >
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/27/2009 8:08:01 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Many people use credit cards responsibly and would find it very convenient to have an automatic withdrawal of their offerings from their credit cards. And it may get more people to give.
That said, I don't like this for a few reasons:
(1) It (if it's an automatic withdrawal) makes giving impersonal. If you write a check or put cash in the plate, it's more intentional than seeing it on your statement every month.
(2) The church isn't getting the full amount. They have to pay a monthly fee to accept the card(s), and they pay a percentage off each transaction (usually 1-3%, if I recall correctly). That's offering money going to waste, IMO.
(3) There IS the (very distinct) possibility of people misusing their credit and going into debt, and thus their offerings are part of that debt. I guess it's a little of the "causing your brother to stumble" thing.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/27/2009 8:11:03 PM
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clydewolf
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I think that rather than the Church accepting their tithes and offerings on a CC, they should encourage the congregation to go get a Cash Advance on the CC and us that for the offerings..... Just kidding.
I know Christian Organizations accept CC payments when they are transacitng business over the phone and internet. If I were doing my giving after listening to the sermon on the internet, it may be acceptable. At the Church building, either cash or good check will do.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/27/2009 8:19:27 PM
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writerchick
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Our church has slips available for people to use credit cards. I do see why this makes you uncomfortable with the whole debt thing. Going into debt for the church does not seem very biblical to me. On a personal note, I love it because I can use my debit card. I don't carry cash very often and most of the checks I write are from my online bank. Perhaps you could suggest that they call them debit card slips instead of credit card slips. I know it's semantics, but the suggestion that the money should come out of funds that you already have might be enough to steer folks in the right direction.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/27/2009 9:12:18 PM
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ckgirl
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Thank you so much for your responses. I've spent a lot of time in the Bible over the past few weeks about this and it just seems like God thinks debt is a bad idea, period. We live in a lower middle class area and many people here are already in debt and losing their homes. They have already proven themselves to be poor managers of their incomes. My concern is that to give them another way to do that (ie - use of a credit card at church) will be causing them to stumble. Besides, doesn't God call us to give from what He's already given us? Doesn't borrowing money from a credit card company go against this?
I am not uncomfortable with the idea of debit cards being used since that money is being pulled directly from a member's bank account and isn't borrowed.
The main problem is our church went into a large amount of debt to fund a building project before the economy tanked. Obviously if I am uncomfortable with the credit card issue, I am even more so with the debt we've undertaken. Whenever I question why we didn't wait to build capital BEFORE building a building, I am told God lead our church leaders to believe taking out a loan was what He wanted them to do. I just find that difficult to justify given what I've read in the Bible.
The odd thing is, our church is big on the whole Dave Ramsey Financial Peace thing. I feel like it's hypocritical to promote this program and then ask people to use their credit cards to pay a tithe, not to mention take out an enormous loan for a building. I love my church and do not want to leave it, but this whole thing has been such a heavy burden on my heart that I'm finding it difficult to worship there. And I have to wonder, is it wrong for my attitude to be this way when I'm supposed to be worshipping?
Thanks for the opportunity to vent. I live in a small community and do not want to voice my concerns to my church family for fear of causing dissention.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 1:28:13 AM
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Ps103
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Wait--your church isn't *requiring* people to give via credit cards are they? They are just making that option available, right?
I see nothing wrong with having that option, frankly.
Yes, some people have trouble with credit cards, but some people have trouble with checking accounts, too, and I have yet to see a church that took only cash 
If someone donates by credit card and doesn't carry the balance, there is nothing wrong with that, morally or ethically, and more than writing a check and giving that way when you have the money in the account to cover it.
Just because some people abuse something is not a valid reason for punishing those who do not abuse it. Certainly nothing to leave a church over.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 7:33:28 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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But this would mean they could use a debit card as well as long as it was flagged with Visa or MC. I use my debit card for almost everything. I rarely carry cash and have to dig around for my check book. This service doesn't necessarily mean you are going into debt because it could be coming straight out of a bank acct. Then there are people like my parents. They charge absolutely everything, then pay it off IN FULL each month. It helps them track their spending and budgeting. CC are not necessarily evil.
Karen
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 2:43:17 PM
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APZR
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I wouldn't want my church to accept credit cards. It just goes against my core beliefs, invites financial troubles for those who are not financially mature, invites problems in church leadership to over budget anticipating people to charge up tithes, and the fees paid to the banks are outrageous. Same thing for PayPal, I don't like using PayPal for giving. If I give $100, I want them to receive $100 and be able to use it ALL, not receive $75 after fees.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 4:26:33 PM
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Random
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I don't know the numbers, so this is not going to be accurate, but doesn't taking CCs save some money off of administration and record keeping?
When people pay by check or cash, there is more work to be done to balance things, deposit the money, etc. but with a CC some of that cost goes away. Probably not enough to cover the entire cost, but it might cover some.
The point being, even if you pay cash, the church is not getting all of the deposit either, unless they have volunteers for the treasurer and bookkeeping positions.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 5:05:24 PM
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doinkdom
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For tithing it would seem to contradict "first fruits."
However, for an offering (above, beyond tithing) then maybe?  I dunno, I'd have to really meditate on that.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 5:24:38 PM
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writerchick
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quote:
ORIGINAL: APZR
I wouldn't want my church to accept credit cards. It just goes against my core beliefs, invites financial troubles for those who are not financially mature, invites problems in church leadership to over budget anticipating people to charge up tithes, and the fees paid to the banks are outrageous. Same thing for PayPal, I don't like using PayPal for giving. If I give $100, I want them to receive $100 and be able to use it ALL, not receive $75 after fees.
If your church is large enough, you could pressure the bank to lower those fees just as a large corporation could.
There's also the lowered risk and associated cost than you'd have with checks. I worked the door at one of our concerts last year and we accepted cash and cards only for the tickets because if the check bounced, we'd be out the admission plus the the fees. With the cards, we didn't have to worry about that.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 5:28:12 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
quote:
ORIGINAL: APZR
I wouldn't want my church to accept credit cards. It just goes against my core beliefs, invites financial troubles for those who are not financially mature, invites problems in church leadership to over budget anticipating people to charge up tithes, and the fees paid to the banks are outrageous. Same thing for PayPal, I don't like using PayPal for giving. If I give $100, I want them to receive $100 and be able to use it ALL, not receive $75 after fees.
If your church is large enough, you could pressure the bank to lower those fees just as a large corporation could.
There's also the lowered risk and associated cost than you'd have with checks. I worked the door at one of our concerts last year and we accepted cash and cards only for the tickets because if the check bounced, we'd be out the admission plus the the fees. With the cards, we didn't have to worry about that.
That's a good point. Many restaurants around here no longer accept checks, only cash or cards.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 6:01:59 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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quote:
For tithing it would seem to contradict "first fruits."
However, for an offering (above, beyond tithing) then maybe? I dunno, I'd have to really meditate on that.
If you think of that way then direct deposit would be more accurately first fruits. I may write my check out for tithes first but if payday is on a Monday then there are ,in reality, many things paid before I tithe on the following Sunday. I think this could get very legalistic quickly.
Karen
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 7:52:59 PM
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ladioffaith
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What about the millions upon millions of us who use debit cards as credit to avoid fees from our bank and to be eligible for points?
I do not have a credit card, but use my debit for EVERYTHING. I dislike writing checks and avoid them whenever possible because everybody seems to hold onto checks forever but processes debits right away.
And also ... people like to use credit cards for points ... how do we know they're not paying them off monthly?
I do see the potential for legalism in this.
Instead of not taking them, why not just simply do some messages on managing your money or offer a program in this area?
Now ... on the other hand ... the visiting pastor who encouraged my former congregation to have a "miracle offering" funded by asking our creditors to let us skip a payment ... now THAT is seriously unbiblical! I shudder when I hear people talking about that guy visiting their church now!
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 8:18:29 PM
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Random
Posts: 751
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladioffaith
And also ... people like to use credit cards for points ... how do we know they're not paying them off monthly?
Where do the points come from? They come from the fees the bank charges the church for accepting credit cards. So, if you give to the church on a CC to get points, those points are coming right out of the church's bank account.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/28/2009 9:16:38 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ckgirl
Thank you so much for your responses. I've spent a lot of time in the Bible over the past few weeks about this and it just seems like God thinks debt is a bad idea, period. We live in a lower middle class area and many people here are already in debt and losing their homes. They have already proven themselves to be poor managers of their incomes. My concern is that to give them another way to do that (ie - use of a credit card at church) will be causing them to stumble. Besides, doesn't God call us to give from what He's already given us? Doesn't borrowing money from a credit card company go against this?
I am not uncomfortable with the idea of debit cards being used since that money is being pulled directly from a member's bank account and isn't borrowed.
The main problem is our church went into a large amount of debt to fund a building project before the economy tanked. Obviously if I am uncomfortable with the credit card issue, I am even more so with the debt we've undertaken. Whenever I question why we didn't wait to build capital BEFORE building a building, I am told God lead our church leaders to believe taking out a loan was what He wanted them to do. I just find that difficult to justify given what I've read in the Bible.
The odd thing is, our church is big on the whole Dave Ramsey Financial Peace thing. I feel like it's hypocritical to promote this program and then ask people to use their credit cards to pay a tithe, not to mention take out an enormous loan for a building. I love my church and do not want to leave it, but this whole thing has been such a heavy burden on my heart that I'm finding it difficult to worship there. And I have to wonder, is it wrong for my attitude to be this way when I'm supposed to be worshipping?
Thanks for the opportunity to vent. I live in a small community and do not want to voice my concerns to my church family for fear of causing dissention.
wow thats similar to our church, who are building a new church building and have already had three gift days and are just about to start building with only half the money needed. Some has been given as a loan which will have to be paid back in 5 years so more pressure on the congregation to find more money in five years time.
The pastor said earlier in the year that they wouldnt start until they had all the money, and now they are starting anyway
My husband (who hears form God quite accurately) feels strongly that God is telling him that this isnt what he wants and that He has something better for them later, but as we are fairly new, they havent taken any notice of this, as most other people seem to think it is a good idea to go into a lot of debt.I feel strongly that nothing should be done until all the money comes in and as we are not that big a congregation it puts a lot of strain on those who havent got a lot. We havent given anything as we both feel that this isnt the way to do it, and that it isnt what God wants anyway.
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RE: putting tithes on credit cards - 10/29/2009 11:00:18 AM
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Ellie-Mae
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I would be tempted to write a letter to Dave Ramsey about your church, how they promote his stuff, and about the new acceptance of Credit cards for tithing. Then I would share the response with the church.
I seriously consider going elsewhere if this was my church.
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