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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2005 6:38:04 PM
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AQuietPlace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I would be interested in testimonies that go something like this:
"I was spanked by otherwise loving and supportive parents, and it ruined my life"
To me that would lend credence to the no spanking argument.
Fritzpw_Admin, et al: Is this post considered on topic in this new thread or all the spanking advocates simply here able to redicule those who would urge parents not hit their children without the other side of the debate being posted?
_____________________________
Zephaniah 3.17
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 4:39:48 AM
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lionofgod
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spanking by loving parents never cause harm to a child.
Parents that treat their children like property do.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 7:23:59 AM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
But how about the reverse? "I wasn't spanked by otherwise loving and supportive parents, and it ruined my life."
Is the critical issue the presence or lack of spanking or the presence or lack of being loving and supportive?
Either would be informative to that end; I think my reasoning is that it is one thing to say, "I'm raising my child this way currently because I believe such and such" and another to say, "I am the result of that philosophy and it works".
It's 'fruit' - or lack thereof, which I think is the ultimate test.
I don't know if you're just looking for people whose lives were "ruined" by "spanking," but I can tell you that my life was not. Actually now that I'm typing this, I think we've had this discussion before, Jack. 
It is exactly because my parents spanked me that I believe it works. They also spanked my brother, and they inherited my cousin, who was totally out of control, and they spanked him as well. All of us have turned out to be non-violent, responsible adults. It wasn't until I was a little older that I really began to study what the scriptures say on this issue, and I feel that what my parents applied to me was in keeping with that. This is what I'm trying to do with my kids.
For the most part, my kids behave. They're certainly not perfect, but I consider them behaved children -- especially in comparison to many children I encounter today. One thing that I try to do with my children is make sure they know where their boundaries are, i.e., they are not confused about what's right and wrong. IMO, that is part and parcel of waht a parent is to be instructing their children in. So I have spanked, but I do it with the clear understanding that there are definite boundaries. A spanking should serve to crystalize those boundaries if they're not clear.
When I was a kid, I knew where my boundaries were. I knew what was expected of me. There was no question. My parents set a standard and I was expected to adhere to it, and when I purposely didn't, I got a spanking for it. I also knew that they loved me and it was because they loved me that they were teaching me how to walk the way I should. I have given thanks to the Lord so many times for my parents in doing this. Their instruction has kept me out of all kinds of trouble.
But I can't talk about spanking without talking about a parent communicating with their child. My parents talked to me A LOT. They didn't just convey something vague about what was expected and then out of the blue just snatch me up and spank me when they got irritated because I didn't get it. They continually let me know what was right and wrong. So when I got a spanking, I usually did know that I was acting up, and my parents used spanking to ensure that I knew they meant business. Those boundary lines got really, really clear when a spanking was administered.
One thing that I really admire my dad for when I look back on how he spanked is that he NEVER did it in anger. He was always so calm. He also would always explain to me why I got a spanking. He never spanked me in a huff and then left in a huff to let me deal with the aftermath on my own. He always characterized the spanking for me. This is key IMO.
BTW, I don't spank every time I turn around, but three of my kids have gone through phases of a few weeks where they got a spanking frequently (daily if need be). Out of 4 kids, one of them did not need spankings much at all. Just didn't push it. I have had one who has begged for it by their behavior. Time out for that one was a joke. Taking things away was a joke. Are you kidding?!! This kid would just wait you out. Take her things away or her privileges away?! "Oh yeah, I'll gut it up and outlast you," was her thinking. Things like time out and denial of privleges or things just hacked her off. Spankings threw all those head games out the window and she straightened up right quick. She didn't like those spankings and didn't want any more of that.  She's always been my child who was the most straightforward, so it makes total sense to me that she would want things really black and white. Spankings are black and white (if they're done correctly).
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 7:35:04 AM
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bzirk
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BTW, I don''t think scripture mandates that every child be spanked. I think that sparing the rod means not spanking when it possibly should be done. But doesn't mean that it should always be done.
My mother never had a spanking in her life, and she is non-violent and responsible as well. So I know it does happen. No one is going to tell me that her not receiving a spanking was incorrect. One reason she didn't receive a spanking is because my grandmother was literally beaten when she was a child, and she could not bring herself to do it. It also didn't help that she was manic depressive. My grandfather was also in his 50s when my mother was born, and he was too sickly (by the time she was old enough to remember anything) to do anything about spanking.
But my mother has enormous self-control. It is eerie how much so. My dad also had enormous self-control, and he WAS spanked. So I have two cases studies completely different, and yet they exhibited similar fruit.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 8:20:04 AM
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Ellie-Mae
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We spank our children when needed. It is just one of many tools. Each child has different needs.
My parents spanked. I wish that they had the training back then that is so readily available to parents now. They were just left floundering on their own learning through trial and error.
Russ' Parents also spank and their kids turned out great.
Russ' mom came from a home that didn't spank. Gramma didn't allow grampa to do it. She was wrong. Mom P Spanked her children as they were growing. Aunt Shirley is against spanking. Aunt Shirley has a lot of problems with authority and men in general and is very defiant even at her age. She would have been a lot better off if her attitude was brought into focus and her defiance was addressed when she was a child in a manner that would have gotten her attention.
BTW, her family was not lax in disipline. Her mom just withheld a tool that was needed for their family. Mom Penner agrees.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 9:03:05 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AQuietPlace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I would be interested in testimonies that go something like this:
"I was spanked by otherwise loving and supportive parents, and it ruined my life"
To me that would lend credence to the no spanking argument.
Fritzpw_Admin, et al: Is this post considered on topic in this new thread or all the spanking advocates simply here able to redicule those who would urge parents not hit their children without the other side of the debate being posted?
Please use the report link located at the bottom right of the post.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 9:05:01 AM
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Sunnymom
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quote:
or all the spanking advocates simply here able to redicule those who would urge parents not hit their children without the other side of the debate being posted?
Feel free to post the other side of this debate, please.
Ridicule is in the eye of the beholder, it would seem.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 9:59:53 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I don't know if you're just looking for people whose lives were "ruined" by "spanking," but I can tell you that my life was not. Actually now that I'm typing this, I think we've had this discussion before, Jack.
I think we have discussed most of the issues around here before. We should post in the Deja Vu thread.
I didn't ask the question to ridicule anyone, it's just that these threads often come down to 'this book says' or 'my philosophy says'; I'm a show me type of person - if spanking has the detrimental effects it is often said to have, then there should be some folks around who can say "My life was would be fine (or better) if my otherwise good parents hadn't spanked me".
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It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 10:01:56 AM
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AQuietPlace
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sunnymom said: Ridicule is in the eye of the beholder, it would seem.
Everything is in the eye of the beholder. That's evident in all the forums. What would be interesting to me would be to see someone post something that went like this: *I'm uncertain about this issue and would like to read your input so that I can decide. Please let me know, from a biblical point of view, whether you think that God condones or even desires parents to hit their children as part of the discipline a child receives*
What actually seems to happen is that posters are locked into their viewpoint before-during-and after the postings go on. No one seems to be open to the possibility of change. (and no one needs to post a rebuttal that says I sound the same way. we all sound the same way.)
For myself, for one thing, I would like to see posters who have been sensitive or offended by the word hit used instead of spank talk about that. Spanking works because it hurts. If it didn't hurt it wouldn't work. Even when it doesnt physically do physical damage or significant hurt (though what the heck is insignificant hurt?), it hurts emotionally because the child is astounded that their loving parent would intentionally hurt them and it stings emotionally. So why the objection to using the word hit? A spanking of a child is defined by someone hitting a child. If you were to explain it to a non-English speaking person you would need to indicate that you mean hit. period. I would be edified by an explanation about the problem with using the word hit. Ask you child to explain what a spanking is. What does it say that you who spank don't like to use the word hit? Does that have any meaning for you?
Another thing I would seriously like to see discussed is why spankers often say that they don't spank often when the most often quoted scripture about it (for those who interpret it that way) says --essentially--that to use the rod sparingly will spoil the child. If you insist on understanding that word rod to mean something to hit a child with, then that scripture would indicate to you also that you are using that biblical principle incorrectly when you use it sparingly. You should frequently use the rod, according to that interpretation of scripture.
Thirdly, is that often people say that they only use spanking for the big offenses. It would be interesting to look at what Jesus talked about most-- that is, what Jesus would say are the bigger offenses and see if those are the kind of things that children are mostly being spanked about, such as unforgiveness, inattentiveness to the poor, judging others, lording it over on someone, lack of faith.
Again, this is so sad a topic, truly sad. Someone mentioned how important it is to talk to your children. Please, at some point when no one needs a spanking, talk to your children about how it feels to them, what they think, etc., especially kids ages 11 or 12, if you think that your children believe they have any freedom to be honest with you. I'm talking about discussing the idea of spanking as a part of the discipline routine. Naturally they will say they don't like to be hurt. I don't mean that. But I also don't mean controling the conversation or making it into a sunday school lesson. I mean respecting them enough to hear their feelings and ideas, enough to discuss the whole idea with them not just before and after a spanking. For example, even though you, as a parent, must regulate your child's activities, they have input about choice of sports, etc., don't they?
I know that my posts on this have been sharp. I am a person who was spanked by otherwise loving parents and not ruined for life but it did ruin some thing, for certain and I can also say with complete honesty that I truly hated and HATE what happened to me to this very day. I have forgiven them and I plan to take loving care of them to the day they die despite being mishandled as a child. I know that my so-called spankings were infrequent and quite mild compared to most that I know about but I recall the sting, the embarrasement, the insult of it as if it were yesterday, and it was a very very long time ago. I doubt that I am the only person who feels this way.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 10:04:03 AM
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HenriettasCat
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OK, well here's my bit - although I already think I said most of it on the other thread.
It wasn't until we had our own child that my husband and I decided not to spank. For us it is a conviction. We believe in giving firm, consistent boundaries in other ways and the more we do it the more it confirms to us that spanking is not necessary, not only with our child - who is in his 2's but also through other parents who do not spank but who have older children for whom it works as well.
Parenting, as others have said is about a lot more than the spanking issue. Discipline is but a small part of my 'child training'.
I do not think spanking should be banned, as some are advocating in my country (I am European). It will not stop child abuse and for many parents they would only turn to more destructive ways of dealing with thier child such as verbal/emotional abuse, manipulation etc. I have seen spanking done 'right' by Christian parents (about the only ones who I have seen do it with any form of self control) but I still think most of the time it is uneccesary. I do have some sympathy with parents who have done it on occasion for an extreme offence, but I find it harder to understand parents who (as one of my closest friend does) walk around with paddle in pocket - its kind of like telling the child they are going to misbehave before they've even done anything.
I think the 'rod' in the bible is more open to interpretation. Those who use the rod cannot seem to agree about what age it should be used, what impliment is acceptable, how often, how hard and for what offences. Should my 65 year old father be using the rod on me for example (don't anyone answer that! )
If a parent chooses to use spanking as a 'tool' or whatever else to discipline their child that is a right. If they don't have my convictions, fine - but also I get fedup when I hear it is 'the biblical way'. Correction, training and discipline are biblical - spanking is a choice of some, but it is not the only effective choice or way. That's all I'm saying, and in our home spanking would be wrong because it goes against what God is teaching us.
I live in a country where spanking children will quite probably be outlawed. What bugs me is instead of supporting parents who spank, encouraging and enabling with new skills I have heard some leaders just ranting and raving and bringing in fear about how Christians will have to do it anyway because its in the bible and all our kids will be taken away from us and the state is undermining parenthood and all our kids will go astray if we don't spank --Sheesh.
Would the same thing happen in America?
Helen
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 10:26:40 AM
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Sunnymom
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quote:
So why the objection to using the word hit?
"My child told a lie so I hit her."
"My child told a lie so I spanked her."
One implies abusive behavior, and the other explains itself, because the striking of the child is defined as purposeful.
I have found that non-spankers like to use the word 'hit' to imply abuse. If one believes it is wrong to spank, then I can understand why they use this term, but I am still going to object to it.
quote:
Someone mentioned how important it is to talk to your children. Please, at some point when no one needs a spanking, talk to your children about how it feels to them, what they think, etc.,
You are assuming that spanking parents have not done so. I have conversations with my kids about every form of discipline that we use, and its purpose in their lives, and they freely tell me what they think. Of course, I am still going to do right, whether they understand it or like it. It's called parenting.
As for the interpretation of the verses in the Bible on chastisement and the use of corporal punishment, I don't know how one could interpret them any other way, w/o having to jump through multiple hoops and doing mental acrobatics. A stick is a stick, used to produce stripes, for the purpose of correction. Stripes does not have to mean gross bodily harm, people. Get a grip. And I am not going to stop using Biblical principles of chastisement because someone else does not agree with every jot and tittle of what I think the Bible teaches about it. Thank God we don't live in the OT, or there wouldn't be any rocks left in my driveway.
I do think the Bible allows for other forms of discipline, because God used many and varied ways to guide and correct the children of Israel, and the many and varied ways that the NT shows us that God deals with us- everything from death and sickness to longsuffering and mercy. I love that verse that says "The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" and I like employing that with my kids. But if I employed it every time, I would have hoodlums for kids.
It is important to have balance and consistency, no matter what method you use to teach and train children. Even non-spankers use a variety of methods to teach their kids proper behavior and values- nothing about parenting is One Size Fits All.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 10:33:42 AM
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Sunnymom
Posts: 1867
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quote:
Should my 65 year old father be using the rod on me for example
HC- I know you were being facetious when you said that, but to me it's an example of trying to discount a Biblical principle by misinterpreting another. Of course one stops using corporal punishment when a child leaves the home, and are no longer under the parent's authority, even though the requirement to honor is there, the authority factor is not present any longer.
If spanking is the wrong thing to do, why is there nothing in Scripture prohibiting it, and dozens of verses that either outright command it, or by principle imply it?
I want to qualify what I am posting here int his thread by saying that I don't think that all non-spankers are terrible parents- there are too many factors in a family that can affect what methods parents use to teach and train kids- everything from health and emotional issues, to learning disabilities and blended families.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 10:50:49 AM
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bzirk
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AQuietPlace,
Since the thread is to spank or not to spank, it would be helpful if you would share with us what you do in lieu of spanking. A specific example of what you've done and how it worked out would be benificial.
Plus, it would be helpful to know how you were disciplined as a child.
Thanks.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 11:05:56 AM
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HenriettasCat
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Actually I wasn't being facetious - so I'm sorry if it came accross that way. But in our culture it would be wrong - however maybe in biblical times and extended families lived together it would be right - but it seems crazy to us.
A lot of the bible is about principle - and I see a principle of correction. There are many countries and tribes who use correction which is different and maybe abhorrent to us - but God doesn't address those either. He doen't say ' make sure you use a bendy piece of stick from a such and such tree, but don't use an iron bar'. Some people think a belt is acceptable. Niether does it say where on the body should one spank - the hands - too vulnerable to damage, the bottom (or does that become too sexual when a child gets older). Only because of what I know of you on this forum do I trust that you are probably an extremely reasonable person and good parent no matter what methods you use. We no longer stone people to death - but it's biblical (I'm not equating stoning with spanking). All I am saying is that I think there are other ways just as effective and I don't think I am unbiblical. IMO there are better ways, I do disagree with spanking but don't think it's necessarily 'wrong' per se (eg that you are in sin as I would if you were really beating your kids) -it's your choice and you have to go with your convictions.
To me a spank is usually to the behind and 'should' if done, be without anger and over with quickly. Once over with the crime has been paid for and relationship restored. A hit is abusive - maybe the good ol' British 'clip round the ear' which doesn't hurt much but is humilating and comes out of nowhere, done out of parent frustration.
I have many 'spanking' friends and I respect them as parents and often go to them for advice. I hope that I have shown the same respect for other parents here even though we may differ in opinion on this one issue. I apologise if this has not been the case.
Helen
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 11:13:17 AM
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peaceful2
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We haven't found a need for corporal punishment for either our special needs child or our non-special needs child. We use many other tools I'm sure many of you employ who use CP and who don't. Our kids are well behaved by our estimation and those who are around them. I'm very proud of both of them. Especially my daughter who's had much to overcome. DD is 11 and DS is 7. When we're angry at the children for something they've done, as they will, that's our problem, not theirs. We deal with our feelings and thoughts, then deal with them and their behavior. We separate the two.
I'm the youngest of 11. Dad never used corporal punishment. We all listened to him and were very close to him. Mom abused the three girls heavily as I shared in the other thread. Never the boys. I love her very much today but had a lot of healing to do. We are close today. It took a lot of work and forgiveness on my part. I chose not to use corporal punishment as a result. I never want to lift my hand to my child and have them look at me in fear. It's a personal conviction decided on in prayer and meditation. The Bible verses do not tell me to use CP when I read them and interpret them. Luckily, we've found other ways to skin the cat so to speak.
Also, if you choose to use CP, be sure to know the laws in your state.
quote:
A stick is a stick, used to produce stripes, for the purpose of correction. Stripes does not have to mean gross bodily harm, people.
In the state of Ohio, this would be considered child abuse. CPS would take the kids if they became aware (If it was reported). Of course I'm sure it would all be worked out eventually but the emotional trauma would leave its impact never-the-less. Working with parents ho have been affected by the system I've seen it happen too many times to count. Do as you're convicted, just know the laws of man we're subjected to as well and the facts of what happens. Peace.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 11:26:59 AM
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Sunnymom
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peaceful-
Corporal punishment is allowed in the state of Ohio as long as it is not excessive under the circumstances and creates a substantial risk of serious physical harm to the child;
quote from Ohio parental laws
Also on that page is the definition of excessive harm-
Definitions
(A) As used in the Revised Code:
(5) "Serious physical harm to persons" means any of the following:
(a) Any mental illness or condition of such gravity as would normally require hospitalization or prolonged psychiatric treatment;
(b) Any physical harm that carries a substantial risk of death;
(c) Any physical harm that involves some permanent incapacity, whether partial or total, or that involves some temporary, substantial incapacity;
(d) Any physical harm that involves some permanent disfigurement or that involves some temporary, serious disfigurement;
(e) Any physical harm that involves acute pain of such duration as to result in substantial suffering or that involves any degree of prolonged or intractable pain.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 11:41:48 AM
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peaceful2
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Sunnymom-
I'm well aware of the laws, thanks for posting. I have personally seen in Lake county and Cuyahoga county a total of over 50 cases where CPS has removed children from their homes for having marks on their bodies after CP has been used while it is being investigated to see if the laws have been broken and if they believe the children could be in imminent danger of being harmed again.
You need to know how the system works if you are going to use CP. If there is suspected abuse they have the right to remove the children. Marks on their bodies constitutes suspected abuse. As I said, what usually happens is as the investigation is conducted it comes out that it isn't excessive etc and the children are returned as systems are taxed and they want to keep families intact.
Just know what could and does happen. That is one of the issues surrounding CP that Fritz said we could bring to light in this forum. Peace.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 2:38:04 PM
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peaceful2
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quote:
...or find a loose judge who will issue an order on pretty thin evidence. Sadly, there are too many of those.
Especially on an election year or when one just feels justified. And once on the bench they have the power to do as they please.
But it happens all the time where kids are removed. As it happens where they aren't and should be. About the topic, as I keep saying, know the laws in your state if you are going to participate in CP so you aren't caught unaware.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 3:08:16 PM
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bzirk
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Certainly someone should know the laws of their state concerning this area, and they should know the federal laws as well. That cannot be said enough, but too many people just won't find out, because they mentally throw their hands up and say, "Oh, it's too complicated, and I could never understand." It's serious enough, that they should make the effort.
I worked with CPS and APS (adult protective services) for years. I wasn't impressed with what went on nor the caliber of case workers (in general). I agree that kids are taken all the time when it's not justified. It's sad. And then there are cases where the kids are at risk and you CAN'T GET CPS to take the kids. Screwed up was an apt description.
I also know that in numerous states it is perfectly legal for a child to be questioned at school and taken then without the parent ever being the wiser -- and NO order is necessary to seize the child -- at least not until they're in the possession of CPS. See what I mean about possession?
I had a friend who had CPS called on her by someone who was being vindictive. Her three children were questioned for almost two hours at their elementary school. Meanwhile, their mother was being questioned at her home. She was exonerated, but even though that's the case, she will be in the CPS data base for many years.
I am saddened that this kind of abuse of power has effectively cowed some parents in what they believe to be the right thing. They are fearful of the state. I hope that Christians can withstand this kind of fear and do what the Lord leads them.
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may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 9:14:30 PM
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strugglingmom
Posts: 1
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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Hi Im new and I pressed the wrong button before so I sent a msg ? somewhere?
Anyhoo....I saw a ost (from another forum) this girl w/o kids said she would do everthing to prevent child abuse when she as kids, lovely idea that we all share as children, unfortunatly, I grew up in a family in which we were beaten and my sister was raped by my father for most of her life, I became an alcoholic and then I had kids (ages 11 and 15) God chose to heal me 8 years ago from my alcoholism, I have NOT laid a hand on my kids, but recently I took my girl to the Dr. office and we proceeded to tell this woman about an incident in which my kids were acting up before bedtime and I had asked them 5 or 6 times to stop, I grabbed my girl by the shoulders, (not hard) got close to her face and yelled STOP IT, she was so shocked because I have never done this before, the Dr. called social services on me and they continue to hound me, is this fair?????????
It makes me mad because I dont Like people telling me how to raise my kids and she was so worried about losing her job, she hounded my daughter to tears over the subject (my girl was afraid they would take me away) she caused such hell in our household and amazingly I know people who hit their kids (you know spare the rod, spoil the child) Personally my kids run all over me, but these people make me afraid to even look at my own kids crosseyed.
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RE: To Spank Or Not To Spank - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2005 10:06:28 PM
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AQuietPlace
Posts: 13
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: southeast USA
Status: offline
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Hi StrugglingMom,
All of us who have had kids empathize with your stress, I'm sure. I don't know of any parent who thinks their job of parenting is easy. You are in my prayers. I imagine that quite a lot of people reading your post will say the same. It sound like you have quite a lot going on. Is it possible that you might consider the involvement of social services as a possible blessing? Perhaps it will give you someone to talk to about different resources and maybe even some short respite times, such as for a few hours a couple of days a week, and maybe the social services department will even pay for it. Since your kids are old enough to report to you what goes on with them in your absence, I pray that you will be able to get a little time for yourself and not worry about them while you are gone. It's just a thought that God can turn this difficulty you are having with the social services department into a blessing for you and your children. God has | | |
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