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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 6:16:23 AM
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parousia70
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Earthquakes are on the rise. In fact, we're seeing more now than they did 2000 years ago when there was a flurry of earthquakes. Indeed, we're seeing more earthquakes in more diverse places than then.
From USGS.gov:
Are Earthquakes Really on the Increase?
We continue to be asked by many people throughout the world if earthquakes are on the increase. Although it may seem that we are having more earthquakes, earthquakes of magnitude 7.0 or greater have remained fairly constant.
A partial explanation may lie in the fact that in the last twenty years, we have definitely had an increase in the number of earthquakes we have been able to locate each year. This is because of the tremendous increase in the number of seismograph stations in the world and the many improvements in global communications. In 1931, there were about 350 stations operating in the world; today, there are more than 8,000 stations and the data now comes in rapidly from these stations by electronic mail, internet and satellite. This increase in the number of stations and the more timely receipt of data has allowed us and other seismological centers to locate earthquakes more rapidly and to locate many small earthquakes which were undetected in earlier years. The NEIC now locates about 20,000 earthquakes each year or approximately 50 per day. Also, because of the improvements in communications and the increased interest in the environment and natural disasters, the public now learns about more earthquakes.
According to long-term records (since about 1900), we expect about 17 major earthquakes (7.0 - 7.9) and one great earthquake (8.0 or above) in any given year.
Now SS, these facts aside,
please Show us the prophesies, citing chapter & verse, that foretell of an INCREASE of Earthquakes, either in frequency or magnitude. Be as specific as you can.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 7:25:23 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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This from the person who thinks the Millennium was fulfilled in less than 40 years, or alternately, overlaps the nine and sixty-two 'sevens.'
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 7:33:44 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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That was an excellent example of how "soon" is used in Malachi.
Not very soon at all.
We're still waiting for you to show
us how ALL of prophecy was fulfilled.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:06:42 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 513
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SandyWings
Against sorcerers, Against adulterers, Against perjurers,
So when were all these judged? How come they're still among us? Maybe if you could answer these within a systematic theology you might understand how Malachi 3:5 is to come about.
God simply said that he will at that time speedily bring to justice all sorts of malefactors.
The beginning of birth pains which are unleashed through four spirits from God who are released to go to work in the world culminate in the labor of the one 'seven.' Out of the desolations God will bring comes a new period of time: the Millennium.
It is during this Sabbath Millennium that God changes the rules again. No longer will faith be necessary for Salvation because Jesus will be a present reality on the Earth. Thus, when the Lord can be proved by direct observation, no faith is necessary: only obedience. That is why this unique period has Jesus ruling with an iron scepter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SandyWings
The Great Tribulation was Satan's "short time," the 3 1/2 yr. judgment period. (See Revelation 6-20)
 LOL!
This is the demonstration of your learning? Do you even know when Jesus said the Great Tribulation would begin?
It begins at the midpoint of the one 'seven' as described in Daniel by Gabriel.
Do you even know what happens during the Great Tribulation?
Jesus said it is not against Satan, but the Elect who suffer so that they are about to be wiped out!
Even by listing Revelation 6 through 20 as Satan's "Judgment period" you demonstrate no understanding of the parallel accounts, themes, perspectives, timelines, and various sequence of events which will take place.
We're still waiting for you to show
us how ALL of prophecy was fulfilled.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 5:42:36 PM
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SandyWings
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Why does Sinner-Saint keep repeating himself? We know, you are the one who says they can't wait! Patience is also a fruit of the Spirit-
I didn't say it was Satan's judgment, so what's the point of answering you if you don't read?
Did you read what I wrote so far? It's scriptural. You insist on a literal interpretation of Revelation & the prophets. That's why you have negative expectations & a doomsday outlook on life, thinking there will be another Great Tribulation.
It's only when you listen that you learn.
If it's literal- explain the Woman and the Scarlet Beast (Rev17) And then I'll give you the interpretation of the symbols.
quote: Sinner-Saint post #1745
As a way of closing, I will not be responding to whatever you post to rebut this. It's simply not worth my time to try and change you because essentially that is beyond my ability to do so.
So I ask, why are you?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 6:42:38 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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.
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You can't do it can you? You can't show how all of prophecy was fulfilled.
- I thought so.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 6:49:36 PM
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sooner
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Furthermore, the revelation is not by John but through Jesus from the Father:
REV 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
The revelation comes from a heavenly God perspective to be understood.
What does this mean? Is man not suppose to understand?
Noting the double interjection with soon in the opening paragraph to the nearness of time at the end, within the genre of apocalyptical writing, the return of Christ is always imminent.
I love this argument from your "heros of the faith". In order for an event to be imminent, everything that must happen before the imminent event must have come to pass. Otherwise it is not imminent. Yet these dispies, who you quote, do not believe the events that precede the "imminent event" have come to pass. (Matt. 24:14 for example). In fact they all claim that the events of 1948 were a fulfillment of Prophecy. An event that must happen before the "imminent event" Therefore by their own conclusions the " imminent event" could not have been imminent in the 1st century. Yet you use these clowns as your source?????
This theological tenement is preserved in churches today from the exhortation to always be ready for Christ’s return as learned from His parables. No matter a person’s eschatology, no matter when the end will take place, for each individual Christian, their Rapture is as near as their death. However, it should be pointed out that the word for soon, tachei (dative, singular of tachos) can be translated as the “rapidity of execution (Walvood),” and can be translated as “the things which are about to happen suddenly” —The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament p 610. So there is a split in meaning between the two uses of soon and near and so they do not indicate a first century fulfillment is required.
So now en tachi "can" mean rapidity? Does that mean it doesn't have to mean that all the time and can in fact mean soon??
So what is your response to these verses? Does "en tachi" mean rapidity?
Act 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
Acts 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
Act 25:4 But Festus answered, that Paul should be kept at Caesarea, and that he himself would depart shortly thither.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 8:48:43 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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You want to say that since the same word is used to describe something which happened at that moment in Acts must therefore convey the same immediate action in prophecy is not a valid comparison.
There are many instances where the Judgment of God is said to be swift, but the fact is that His Judgment (aside from the Flood which won't be repeated) still hasn't occurred.
To say that God's Judgment is still in the future contradicts the immediate aspect of prophecy is not substantiated either! Remember what Peter wrote:
1Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.
Remember too that Gabriel said to Daniel that "desolations have been decreed"! (Dan 9:26)
God decreed the outcome of the end-times before any of the seventy 'sevens' had even begun!
That they have not come yet means the Church Age - which began with the Apostles on the Festival of Firstfruits - is still going on and the Church is still growing until the Harvest!
And for that, we should be eternally grateful because that is exactly how long we will have with the Lord, so long as you don't take the mark of the beast or bow down in front of his image.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 8:58:01 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Sooner, you have been given several noted scholarly interpretations which show a certain latitude in the language which you just happen not to like.
The point is, the variance in "soon" and "near" in no way in the original language are as constricting as you would like to make it out to be from the English.
The point is: we have to align our eschatology with ALL of the Bible.
Furthermore, we can just pick and choose, NOR should we try to make the Bible say what we would like it to say!
Further still - I think it is a great mistake to hang one's eschatology upon a single word like LaHaye and Ice do in their book: Charting the End Times. While their work is very good in several respects, the fundamental error they make is to say the Rapture happens with the word apostesia in Thessalonians.
One of the reasons I shifted to a sequence-of-events analysis is to avoid looking at too small a thing and so miss the big scheme of things. This is a new paradigm in eschatology. It has been very rewarding in that it allows me to compare and condense various parallel and multiple accounts concerning the end-times into a cohesive whole which is not at odds with the Bible in principle or in verse.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 9:59:17 PM
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parousia70
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Still waiting for SS to show us the prophesy that says there will be an INCREASE in earthquakes before the end of the world......
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 10:01:59 PM
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parousia70
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
This from the person who thinks the Millennium was fulfilled in less than 40 years, or alternately, overlaps the nine and sixty-two 'sevens.'
not sure what you're getting at about the overlap thing, but my view of a fulfilled millennium is far more scriptural than your view of a future millennium where human beings will be rendering blood animal sacrifices directly to a physical Jesus for atonement.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 11:04:40 PM
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parousia70
Posts: 163
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Ridiculous. The Day of the Lord has not come yet.
Ridiculous again. You said the Day of the Lord (which has not come yet) was in 586 B.C. Now you say it is in A.D. 70.
Both Events were "Day of the Lord" events, as the Bible describes.
In order to understand the nature of the “Day of Christ”, one must first understand the nature of the various “Day of the Lord” events that preceded it.
Jehovah's comings were always described as personal and visible (see: Isa 19:1-2; Isa 31 all; Deut 33:2, Zech 9:13; etc.). Jesus was to come "in the glory of the Father." Christ's coming was to be a Day of Yahweh event, which reveals to us the precise nature of that event.
The desolation of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was a past "Day of the Lord." After it happened, the prophet Jeremiah tells us:
Lamentations 1:12
behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.
Lamentations 2:1
How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger
Lamentations 2:21
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied.
Lamentations 2:22
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained
Note also that it was God who did the killing! Did anyone SEE Jehovah kill people? Was the prophet lying? Of course not. This is how the prophets spoke.
Furthermore, Ezekiel had foretold of this same Day of the Lord against Jerusalem which took place in the 500s BC, saying:
Ezekiel 7:19
They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of Jehovah: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.
And again, Ezekiel says of this same past Day of the Lord...
Ezekiel 13:2-5
Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.
The prophet Zephaniah also calls the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians "the Day of the Lord."
Zephaniah 1:1 - 1:7
The word of Yahweh which came to Zephaniah, the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah, the son of Amon, king of Judah. I will utterly sweep away everything off of the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also swear by Malcam, those who have turned back from following Yahweh, and those who haven't sought Yahweh nor inquired after him. Be silent at the presence of the Lord Yahweh, for the day of Yahweh is at hand. For Yahweh has prepared a sacrifice. He has consecrated his guests.
Folks, there we have the classic "Day of the Lord" in scripture. The prophets speak of Jehovah who comes down and does a whole host of "physical" things. Yet did any one SEE Yahweh do these things? Was Zephaniah lying? This scripture goes on all the way to the end of Zephaniah chapter two, and be sure to note that the judgments that ensue upon the other surrounding nations are also a past Day of Yahweh event (1:14; 2:2-3).
So, the destruction of Jerusalem in the 500s BC is just one example of MANY past day of the LORD events.
The N.T. teaches that Christ's return was to be a "Day of Yahweh" event. This perfectly coincides with AD 67-70, which was the greatest Day of the Lord in history.
Jesus wielded Rome's powers as Jehovah had wielded the powers and kings of Babylon and Persia as his own anointed servants (Jer 25:9; Isa 44:28-45:13). That's how the Day of the Lord judgments work. Rome continued so that the Church would over take it as the stone of Daniel 2 that became a giant mountain over the whole earth. The pagan Roman Empire was destroyed.
John's own interpretation of Rev 1:7's cloud-coming is found in Rev 14:14-20! No one can deny that the Rev 14:14-20 passage shows a coming in the heavenly realms which brings disasters upon earth--it is not an incarnational event. Rather, this perfectly depicts the way the Father came in O.T. times--in power and great glory. As Jesus promised, he was to come "in the glory of the Father." Furthermore, Jesus said that when his future kingdom came, no one would be able to point to it and say "look here it is, or look there it is" (Luke 17:20-21). Since "the kingdom does not come in an observable fashion" (Luke 17:20-21), and since Christ was to come "in his kingdom" (Mt 16:27-28 ), it follows by logical necessity that Christ's coming was not observable. Rather, it was a "Day of the Lord event (i.e., in the heavenly realms with great disasters and wrath poured out upon nations and people).
The coming of Christ on the clouds that every eye would see (Rev 1:7) is actually shown us in Revelation 14:14-20. There can be no doubt that the Rev 14:14-20 passage makes clear that it is a coming in the heavenlies like unto the many O.T. Jehovah comings (cf. Isa 19:1-2; Deut 33:2; 2 Sam 22:7-16; Zech 9:13-16; Zeph 1:2-5; Isaiah 31, Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16; etc.). Jehovah came often in O.T. times, yet his presence, which always performed the desolations, was potent and invisible. Jesus had promised that he was to come "in the glory of the Father.
The great and terrible Day of the Lord struck at the headquarters of opposition. Apostate Jerusalem, a.k.a. the great city Mystery Babylon (Rev 14:8/11:8 ), was responsible for the persecution of Christ and the apostles and prophets. They used the power of Rome to persecute the Church worldwide after killing Christ himself. For that, all of the blood shed on the earth from Able unto the time of Christ was to be avenged upon their generation according to Matt 23:31-36. All torah-observant, Christ-rejecting Jews in the Roman Empire were destroyed in Jerusalem in that great wrath of AD 67-70. The judgment came at that time (1 Peter 4:17; cf Jn 12:31), for the end of all things was then at hand (1 Peter 4:7; 2 Tim 4:1)--the end of the age had come.
Furthermore, the vengeance of God in those last days (Heb 1:1-2; James 5:3; Acts 2:15-17) had worldwide impact. A last-days famine hit the whole empire (Acts 11:28 ), God was striking down kings (Acts 12:20-23) as well as the emperor-gods (Nero, Galba, etc), Rome burned, and the world Temple of Jupiter was destroyed in AD 69. That Day of the Lord, the greatest of all those before it, did come upon the whole world as prophesied. Christ's Church emerged victorious and has become the greatest empire known to mankind.
Let me say that if one understands what the Day of the Lord was, and if one is very familiar with the many historic Day-of-the-Lord judgments that transpired in Old Testament times, then one quickly understands that the second coming was, by nature, to be a Day of the Lord event just like those in O.T. times. The preterist view is entirely consistent with the Old Testament in understanding AD 67-70 as not only a "Day of the Lord," but the greatest of all those that had ever been.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 11:36:36 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Ridiculous again. You said the Day of the Lord (which has not come yet) was in 586 B.C. Now you say it is in A.D. 70.
They both foreshadow the event yet to come!!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 11:52:35 PM
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SandyWings
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Revelation20 is quite straightforward. It is a recap of life & times of the Apostles on earth & from the time Jesus "bound" the strongman" to 70AD when Satan was loosed for the 3 1/2 yr. period for his last evil deed. When "fire came down from heaven" & destroyed "the beloved city" (earthly Jerusalem)the same as mystery Babylon- which was replaced with the New Jerusalem(which is above) & spiritual for us on earth. The Holy City came down from God to sit on Mt. Zion in Heaven.
Rev.20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for thewitness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
John is recalling his brethren that lived & reigned with Christ or IN Christ in that period.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. The rest of the dead did not live in the 1st century "with Christ"." They would be resurrected to either glory or everlasting contempt in 70 AD. This would include Daniel's people(good or bad) Dan.12;Rev20:11-15. This is the first resurrection. The 1st resurrection refers back to the martyrs in v.4.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Apostles & Disciples were "priests of God" all during their earthly mission.
1Peter2:5
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Peter 2:9
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Rev 1:5-6
5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev5:10
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
So the thousand years ends with Satan's little season in 70AD.
The drying up of the Euphrates is plainly to signify its being crossed with ease & speed. In connection with the "four angels bound at the Euphrates" vision, points to the drawing of troops from that quarter (the kings of the east may be prepared)for the invasion of Judea. This we know from historical fact. Not only Roman legions from the frontier of the Euphrates, but auxiliary kings whose dominions lay in that region, such as Antiochus of Commagene & Sohemus of Sophene, most properly designated "the kings from the east" followed the eagles of Rome to the siege of Jerusalem.(Jos. Jewish Wars,bk.3 ch4).
< Message edited by SandyWings -- 2/29/2008 11:59:22 PM >
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 12:57:36 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
Still waiting for SS to show us the prophesy that says there will be an INCREASE in earthquakes before the end of the world......
And you're going to keep waiting because that is not what Jesus said.
In fact, looking solely at earthquakes is a poor general indicator. It's sort of like thinking it's worse than it ever was. Martin Luther thought that he was in the end-times, however, he was not.
However, there are two predominant earthquakes on the Day of the Lord which you have not accounted for in your rendition of what you think the Day of the Lord is all about. The first does shake everything up, much like the Christmas quake under the Indian Ocean did. The seond will split the Mount of Olives in two.
Those events, foretold by the Bible, haven't happened yet.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 1:03:55 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
not sure what you're getting at about the overlap thing, but my view of a fulfilled millennium is far more scriptural than your view of a future millennium where human beings will be rendering blood animal sacrifices directly to a physical Jesus for atonement.
Yes, I know you're not sure; you're part of a school of eschatology that is in the minority because it has such sketchy evidence. Everything hinges on you calling it complete. Nothing is concrete so you have to take everything figuratively. Thus you can honesty say your rendition is more Scriptural because you tell yourself it is rather than that being truly the case.
Now if you want to say there are no animal sacrifices in the Millennium, then you're going to have to take that up with Ezekiel. He describes a man measuring a Temple unlike anything that has ever existed in history. John was sent to measure the Temple which will be built during the one 'seven.' Coincidence? I think not. That Temple, which has not ever been -yet- will be used for future sacrifices as well in accordance with the Law and as changed as dictated by God to Ezekiel.
You remind me of Peter telling Jesus that He should not go to the Cross. Who are we to tell God what parts of His plan are acceptable?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 1:11:13 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 513
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quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
Both Events were "Day of the Lord" events, as the Bible describes.
I don't think you've even scratched the surface in what the Day of the Lord portends.
quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
Let me say that if one understands what the Day of the Lord was, and if one is very familiar with the many historic Day-of-the-Lord judgments that transpired in Old Testament times, then one quickly understands that the second coming was, by nature, to be a Day of the Lord event just like those in O.T. times. The preterist view is entirely consistent with the Old Testament in understanding AD 67-70 as not only a "Day of the Lord," but the greatest of all those that had ever been.
Again, it's only true to you. Calling the first Jewish rebellion "the Day of the Lord" is a real stretch. None of the events which are prophesized to fall on that day happened then nor can you legitimately say the Romans fulfilled what will be done by the agents of God which will perform them because one of the results of all that is the complete disintegration ion of the Roman Kingdom.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 1:39:58 AM
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SandyWings
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
not sure what you're getting at about the overlap thing, but my view of a fulfilled millennium is far more scriptural than your view of a future millennium where human beings will be rendering blood animal sacrifices directly to a physical Jesus for atonement.
Yes, I know you're not sure; you're part of a school of eschatology that is in the minority because it has such sketchy evidence. Everything hinges on you calling it complete. Nothing is concrete so you have to take everything figuratively. Thus you can honesty say your rendition is more Scriptural because you tell yourself it is rather than that being truly the case.
Now if you want to say there are no animal sacrifices in the Millennium, then you're going to have to take that up with Ezekiel. He describes a man measuring a Temple unlike anything that has ever existed in history. John was sent to measure the Temple which will be built during the one 'seven.' Coincidence? I think not. That Temple, which has not ever been -yet- will be used for future sacrifices as well in accordance with the Law and as changed as dictated by God to Ezekiel.
You remind me of Peter telling Jesus that He should not go to the Cross. Who are we to tell God what parts of His plan are acceptable?
Nope. I agree with parousia70.
And your Ezekiel story is wrong. John is told to measure the temple bc that temple was doomed for destruction! This is all figurative language. As was Ezekiel's case. But this temple in Revelation 11, is not Ezekiel's temple. This is Zerubabbel's temple or aka Herod's temple. Ezekiel's temple was NEVER intended to be built due to disobedience. His whole vision was symbolic. Zerubabbel's temple was built instead. We see the river of life in Ezek.40 & the glory coming back by way of the east gate. This is the same as in Rev21-in the New Jerusalem.
The temple in Rev. was measured for destruction. It's figurative language. "count the worshipers therein" This has significance spiritually, but does not stop the fact that it's still the whole physical temple that will shortly be destroyed. We know this is a fact. "The outer court will be given to the gentiles."
That's the literal translation. The gentiles (Roman pagan) armies trampled the city for 42 months!
So. History wins. It's the 2nd temple. And all that was left after the 3 1/2 yr. war was a retaining wall near the temple. (the west wall)
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 7:06:11 AM
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parousia70
Posts: 163
Joined: 5/29/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: parousia70
Still waiting for SS to show us the prophesy that says there will be an INCREASE in earthquakes before the end of the world......
And you're going to keep waiting because that is not what Jesus said.
I know it's not what Jesus said. It IS what YOU said however:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Earthquakes are on the rise. In fact, we're seeing more now than they did 2000 years ago when there was a flurry of earthquakes. Indeed, we're seeing more earthquakes in more diverse places than then.
You said earthquakes are on the increase SS, Jesus didn't.
Apparently you now agree that your previous contention that earthquakes are on the rise is baloney, as well as unprophesied and irrelevant to scriptural eschatology.
Good. We're making progress.....
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However, there are two predominant earthquakes on the Day of the Lord which you have not accounted for in your rendition of what you think the Day of the Lord is all about. The first does shake everything up, much like the Christmas quake under the Indian Ocean did. The seond will split the Mount of Olives in two.
Those events, foretold by the Bible, haven't happened yet.
Again with the uber-literal interpretation.
Boy SS, It sure is easy to show our readers how silly your view is when compared with scripture:
"And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south" (Zech. 14:4).
It is this passage that dispensationalists like you use to support their view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Now SS, I know you're NOT one who chooses to rely on scriptural precedent for the use and interpretation of apocalyptic language, but for those of us who are, I'll continue to provide it. (If for no other reason besides the fact that you make it TOO easy).
As I have previously shown, numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah "coming down" to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present. Now, lets take notice of how many times God's coming is associated with mountains.
"And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. . . . Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech" (Gen. 11:5, 7).
"So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey. . . (Ex. 3:8).
"Then Thou didst come down on Mount Sinai, and didst speak with them from heaven. . . (Neh. 9:13a).
"Bow Thy heavens, O LORD, and come down; touch the mountains, that they may smoke" (Psalm 144:5).
"For thus says the LORD to me, 'As the lion or the young lion growls over his prey, against which a band of shepherds is called out, will not be terrified at their voice, nor disturbed at their noise, so will the LORD of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isa. 31:4).
"Oh, that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:1).
"When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect, Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:3).
In Micah 1:3 we are told that God "is coming forth from His place" to "come down and tread on the high places of the earth."
How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split? (here's a hint: IT ISN'T)
Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4).
You see, SS, Even the most pedestrian of readers can see that it was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, splitting,and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12). This ain't rocket surgery.
What is the Bible trying to teach us with this descriptive language of the Mount of Olives "split in its middle"? The earliest Christian writers applied Zechariah 14:4 to the work of Christ in His day. Tertullian (A.D. 145-220) wrote: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]."7 Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy:
The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14.
This sure is fun, Sinner Saint.
Keep tossin up those softballs, I'll keep knockin 'em out of the park..........
< Message edited by parousia70 -- 3/1/2008 7:24:36 AM >
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 3/1/2008 7:16:30 AM
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parousia70
Posts: 163
Joined: 5/29/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Calling the first Jewish rebellion "the Day of the Lord" is a real stretch.
Then Your argument is not with me, rather it is with the prophets Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Zephaniah, all of which make the "Stretch" to call it "the day of the Lord":
Lamentations 1:12
behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.
Lamentations 2:1
How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger
Lamentations 2:21
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied.
Lamentations 2:22
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained
Ezekiel had foretold of this same Day of the Lord against Jerusalem which took place in the 500s BC, saying:
Ezekiel 7:19
They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of Jehovah: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.
And again, Ezekiel says of this same past Day of the Lord...
Ezekiel 13:2-5
Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.
The prophet Zephaniah also calls the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians "the Day of the Lord."
Zephaniah 1:1 - 1:7
The word of Yahweh which came to Zephaniah, the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah, the son of Amon, king of Judah. I will utterly sweep away everything off of the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the nam | | |
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