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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 10:16:15 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1150
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
For some it is better to remain single and for some it is better to remarry
Could you please provide scripture that supports this?
You are correct that He is working in us to will according to His purpose...
but I don't think His will for us will ever include something He defines as adultery.
1 Cor 7:10-11, 1 cor 7:39, Rom 7:2-3, Luke 16:18
All remarriage is not something God defines as adultery, it is something that you do. Please don't confuse the two.
"Everyone" by definition means "all":
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
I believe those are God's Word and not hers.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 10:24:14 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
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Dear Butterflytearz, I have turned around your post to say some things to you. I am desirous to encourage whatever good and true things you have said.
quote:
I am presently divorced but I still have faith in the salvation of my ex. I prayed too long and too hard and for too many years. There have been signs of change since we divorced even though my ex fights it all the way. I wait and watch cause I still have hope until God makes it clear there is no hope..
I don't feel free to reconcile ,, neither do I feel free to remarry..
I am glad for you that you are praying for your husband. That will keep faith and hope alive. There is always hope while we live.
I take what you said above to mean that the reason you don't sense you are free to reconcile, is because your husband is not willing as yet to do so, not that you are not willing. It is good that you are not of the mind to "marry another", as that would not only constitute adultery on your part, but would show that you let die within you faith and hope; that you stopped having faith to pray and believe for (more importantly) the 'hope' of your husband's salvation.
quote:
Should you remarry? Should you not? I believe God is working in you to do his good will. Whatever you do if it is in faith,, God will bless.
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
There is another aspect of God's Word and truth that must be harmonized which the passage you allude to, I quote a part of that passage: "whatever is not of faith is sin" . And it is that "sin is the transgression of the law". By this and other passages we are to understand that we cannot have faith in doing that which is contrary to the commandments of God, and NOT then be guilty before God of SIN. To put this in practical terms, one cannot "marry another" and think that they have faith from God to do so, this is by no means scripturally sound thinking, but rather a display of ignorant assumption or not so ignorant presumption.
There is not one law for one individual, and then a different law for another - the same law applies to both individuals who are violating the same commandments of God whether out of 'good' motives or 'bad'. Faith is not open ended; faith is only as effectual as it is in the things God says. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. Faith is exercised in the things God says are good, just and holy - not in things contrary to his will.
I am speaking of things here that are untrue and unsound? I think not.
Blessings on you Butterflytearz.
P.P.
< Message edited by p.progress -- 8/12/2008 10:32:49 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 10:28:05 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2845
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
For some it is better to remain single and for some it is better to remarry
Could you please provide scripture that supports this?
You are correct that He is working in us to will according to His purpose...
but I don't think His will for us will ever include something He defines as adultery.
1 Cor 7:10-11, 1 cor 7:39, Rom 7:2-3, Luke 16:18
All remarriage is not something God defines as adultery, it is something that you do. Please don't confuse the two.
"Everyone" by definition means "all":
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
I believe those are God's Word and not hers.
SealedEternal
But God had a whole lot more to say on the topic i.e. Mt. 5 and 19, Duet. 24, 1 Co. 7 etc... When those words are ignored, it really is her words and not God's.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 2:55:50 PM
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Butterflytearz
Posts: 142
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quote:
quote:
For some it is better to remain single and for some it is better to remarry
Could you please provide scripture that supports this?
Dear Keeping faith
You said:
quote:
For some it is better to remain single and for some it is better to remarry
Could you please provide scripture that supports this?
Lets get back to basics here. The Commandments , including thou shalt not commit adultery all come under the heading of Love. Love God, Love others, Love thyself.
Matthew 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Now if in a marriage there is neither love nor faith, then there is no marriage. Its just a piece of paper binding us to the law. Since we are not under law but under grace I don’t think you have the right to force someone to live under man’s law.
Remember there is no marriage at all in heaven.
Matthew 22
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
IMO a marriage can’t be under man made rules or law for God is love.
< Message edited by Butterflytearz -- 8/13/2008 9:54:28 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 3:25:48 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 2907
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
Car2ner,
I have to apologize here. The post I made is way to long, and in need of editing and proof-reading...which I don't have time for now. But I can't rightly save it for later, so am posting it now.
Also, it may appear that I am being caustic towards you, I am not. That was not my intention, but I do present what I have said in such a way that can certainly be taken that way I fear.
Not to worry. I have been in this thread since thousands of posts back. I have seen the same scriptures bounced back and forth numerous times. I have stated my point of view (yes we are all posting our points of view) many times in the past. I won't repeat all of it now. Yes, I skim the long posts and to be fair, I skip many entirely since they are nearly identical to other posts and then some.
I used to believe in no remarraige, etc. I understand where you are coming from and I take no offense. Everynow and then I kick in my two cents.
>>>returning to lurker mode<<<
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 9:23:42 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 828
Joined: 5/11/2007
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quote:
Now if in a marriage there is neither love nor faith, then there is no marriage. Its just a piece of paper binding us to the law. Since we are not under law but under grace I don’t think you have the right to force someone to live under man’s law.
IMO a marriage can’t be under man made rules or law for God is love.
Actually it is God's law, and not man's law that says marriage is for life. In Genesis 3 we see how He instituted the law of marriage with Adam and Eve. The only scriptural evidence of what makes a marriage is vows made between 2 people who are eligible to marry (not divorced with a living spouse).
Unfortunately, it is a man-made law that says we can marry another while our first spouse lives- which is contrary to God's Word. 1 Cor 7:10-11, 1 Cor 7:39, Rom 7:2-3, Luke 16:18
The command from the Lord is to remain unmarried or be reconciled. I don't believe He would have given those directions if He meant something else.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 9:43:16 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 828
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quote:
But God had a whole lot more to say on the topic i.e. Mt. 5 and 19, Duet. 24, 1 Co. 7 etc... When those words are ignored, it really is her words and not God's.
I'm not sure why you keep insisting that I ignore those. I have stated repeatedly that I accept EVERY verse as absolute truth. The difference is that I do not take them out of context and use them for something they were not meant. I reconcile the teachings of Jesus and Paul all together, and do not accept an interpretation that makes them contradict themselves and each other.
You have failed to explain how it is physically possible for one party (innocent) to be freed of the covenant and not the other. You have failed to explain why I can divorce my spouse for adultery... and not be committing adultery if I remarry, but if my spouse who committed adultery remarries they WILL be committing adultery when they remarry. (when read correctly and literally- even if they DID exist, these so-called exceptions are only for the innocent party) That is also how this whole theory was introduced in the Westminster Confession- an "innocent party" exception.
The guilty party who remarries is committing adultery against someone... the only person that can be is the innocent party (who they must still be bound to). Until you can explain this, I don't believe you have a case.
What exactly do you believe about Jesus and Paul, that they were heretics, liars, or suffered from memory loss? Because the exception is mentioned 3 times in Matthew to the Jews, but not once in Mark or Luke to the Gentiles. And Paul forgot to mention it as well in Corinthians. And Jesus forgot to mention Paul's exception every single time.
So I have to accept the words of Jesus Christ. Luke 16:18
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 8/13/2008 10:07:18 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:29:33 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1150
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
"Everyone" by definition means "all":
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
I believe those are God's Word and not hers.
SealedEternal
But God had a whole lot more to say on the topic i.e. Mt. 5 and 19, Duet. 24, 1 Co. 7 etc... When those words are ignored, it really is her words and not God's.
Neither she nor I have ignored those passages and anyone reading this thread knows that. You however said that:
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
All remarriage is not something God defines as adultery, it is something that you do. Please don't confuse the two.
That statement is false because Jesus, who is God, specifically said that all remarriage is adultery in several verses of scripture, so regardless of what any other verse of scripture says, that fact must be true:
Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
These are not her or my "definitions", but God's Words, and He uneqivocally said many times that everyone who divorces their spouse commits adultery in remariage, in some cases makes their spouse commit adultery by divorcing her, and causes the one who marries the divorced spouse to commit adultery. That's what the text says, so you must harmonize your proof texts with these facts, or you can know you aren't "interpreting" them correctly. Keepingfaith and I have explained how your verses harmonize with our position, while you just claim that the verses that directly contradict your position don't really mean what they say and then try to divert the discussion away from them and on to your hand picked, out of context, proof texts. That is not sound exegesis or hermeneutics. "Everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery" has a clear and specific meaning that you either accept or deny.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:32:59 PM
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Butterflytearz
Posts: 142
Joined: 7/6/2006
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quote:
The only scriptural evidence of what makes a marriage is vows made between 2 people who are eligible to marry (not divorced with a living spouse).
Keeping faith,, I have to really disagree on this. Marriage is defined as much more , its two becoming one flesh, its loving each other as Christ loved the church, its loving one another as you love your own body. Its to be under the banner of love,, for Christ and one another.
I won't quote you verses because Im sure you know them , for he has written them in your heart. L O V E
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:38:22 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 828
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quote:
Keeping faith,, I have to really disagree on this. Marriage is defined as much more , its two becoming one flesh, its loving each other as Christ loved the church, its loving one another as you love your own body. Its to be under the banner of love,, for Christ and one another.
I agree with all that... I was just addressing the fact that the vows are what make a marriage binding. There is no scriptural evidence that without all the above things... a marriage is not still binding.
You have the key though... love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. So if we are loving our neighbor, we will not be doing anything Jesus defines as adultery.
< Message edited by keepingfaith -- 8/13/2008 10:45:10 PM >
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:00:40 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
Joined: 12/23/2006
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quote:
RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:32:59 PM
Butterflytearz
Regular Member
Posts: 112
Joined: 7/6/2006
Status: offline quote:
The only scriptural evidence of what makes a marriage is vows made between 2 people who are eligible to marry (not divorced with a living spouse).
Keeping faith,, I have to really disagree on this. Marriage is defined as much more , its two becoming one flesh, its loving each other as Christ loved the church, its loving one another as you love your own body. Its to be under the banner of love,, for Christ and one another.
I won't quote you verses because Im sure you know them , for he has written them in your heart. L O V E
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
Keeping faith,, I have to really disagree on this. Marriage is defined as much more , its two becoming one flesh, its loving each other as Christ loved the church, its loving one another as you love your own body. Its to be under the banner of love,, for Christ and one another.
I agree with all that... I was just addressing the fact that the vows are what make a marriage binding. There is no scriptural evidence that without all the above things... a marriage is not still binding.
You have the key though... love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. So if we are loving our neighbor, we will not be doing anything Jesus defines as adultery.
Dear KF,
No offence to you personally of course, but the issue of 'vows' and the 'taking one's vows' is NOT the what binds the wife to her husband or visa versa. The subject of 'vows' did not come into existence until long after God made the first man and woman (the "twain") "one-flesh". Do the scriptures record that they 'took' any 'vows'? No, and neither did Isaac and Rebekah, nor Jacob and Leah (and Rachel) 'take' any 'vows'. See especially the account of Rebekah and Isaac.
There was an arrangement between Abraham (by proxy) and Rebekah's father Beulah (spelling?), to "give" her to Abraham's son Isaac...they agreed...gifts are given to her family and her...then she went off with the servant to Isaac.
Issac, after speaking to the servant/stewart, then "brought her into" his mother's tent and "takes" her and she became his wife - that simple. No fanfare, no vows not even a 'ceremony'.
This is good news. Instead of misunderstanding this that this somehow undermines the work of God in the making two 'one-flesh'; it instead acts to undergird this truth as never before.
How so?
The one-flesh union is not dependent either way, (a) upon the 'keeping' of, or (b) violation of one's so-called 'vows of marriage'. But it is rather, rooted soley and unchageably so, in the fact that GOD HIMSELF and his ordinances He's laid down in the scriptures regarding the binding nature of the one-flesh union, it is this, it is he and what HE SAID that sets the standard and the plumbline for man adhere to.
That is, the ROLES & DUTIES & CRITERIA God revealed in his Word and only in his Word on this question has any power or rule over the institutions he's put into effect.
It is he and his words that say the one-flesh relationship be honored and never severed through divorce or abandonment. And should one say that they have a 'right' to divorce and worse yet, to "marry another" because their spouse 'broke' their 'amrriage vows', God's Word says nothing of such an 'exception clause'. Who can claim that they can 'justly' "DEPART" (attempt to act to "put asunder" themselves) from their "one-flesh" spouse, due to their spouse NOT keeping their 'marriage vows'? Plenty do. Not God, he says nothing of the power of the marriage vow to seer the one-flesh union HE joined together.
To 'take one's marriage vows' is nothing more than a custom, that has become so intergrated into another custom we have - that of the 'wedding" or 'marriage ceremony' - that we can't see it for what it is: Merely a man;s tradition. It adds nothing to what God JOINS TOGETHER as "one-flesh".
The Process:
The process is simple to become man and wife, "one-flesh". They, in a sense, BEGIN to be joined together when the father who can lawfully (God's laws) is willing to "give" his daughter to a man that is lawfully able to "take her to wife", and then DOES willingly "give her" to him to become "his wife". She BECOMES his wife, WHEN they BECOME "one-flesh"; they become one-flesh, WHEN the man BRINGS HER into his proverbial "tent", and TAKES her as his wife. And all this is finalized when their is physical consumation of the "twain", theythen become "one-flesh". That simple.
See now this. So now any today that tries to justify their divorce and especially "marrying another", BECAUSE their husband did not 'keep' his 'marriage' vows', is standing on nothing but miry clay. God's ordinances, instructions, declarations and commands with respect the husband and wife "one-flesh" relationship, more than 'supercedes' man's manmade 'ordinances', 'declarations', 'commands', 'customs' and 'traditions' - they obliterate them.
Show me please where the scriptures speak of the marriage vow. And do not think (not that any odes), that the covenant Malachi speaks of is not a marraige vow. And the issue of the laws of the land is another subject as well.
P.P.
< Message edited by p.progress -- 8/14/2008 4:32:42 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:19:35 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
And the process is simple: they, in a sense, BEGIN to be joined together - when the father who can lawfully (God's laws) is willing to "give" his daughter to a man that is lawfully able to "take her to wife", and DOES "give her" to him to become "his wife"; she BECOMES his wife, WHEN they BECOME "one-flesh"; which is WHEN the man BRINGS HER into his proverbial "tent", and TAKES her as his wife...through consumation. That simple.
Does that mean that a woman who doesn't have a living father can't get married?
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:23:55 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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Or that one is not married if (for whatever reason) it cannot or has not been consumated?
Or that people living together, are married in God's sight? After all, he has taken her into his tent, so to speak, and they have presumably become one flesh.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 5:02:02 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
And the process is simple: they, in a sense, BEGIN to be joined together - when the father who can lawfully (God's laws) is willing to "give" his daughter to a man that is lawfully able to "take her to wife", and DOES "give her" to him to become "his wife"; she BECOMES his wife, WHEN they BECOME "one-flesh"; which is WHEN the man BRINGS HER into his proverbial "tent", and TAKES her as his wife...through consumation. That simple.
Does that mean that a woman who doesn't have a living father can't get married?
Is this a serious question or rethorical? If serious, and I'll act on it as if I believed it to be sincere and say yes, of course. And I think I have 'evidence' from the scriptures to support this 'belief'.
But now please, you tell me what scriptural narratives, instances, instructions or otherwise support what I just said, and what (I think) you already believe - but perhaps you may believe this for other reasons than scriptural reasons. I don't know though.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 5:06:36 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
And the process is simple: they, in a sense, BEGIN to be joined together - when the father who can lawfully (God's laws) is willing to "give" his daughter to a man that is lawfully able to "take her to wife", and DOES "give her" to him to become "his wife"; she BECOMES his wife, WHEN they BECOME "one-flesh"; which is WHEN the man BRINGS HER into his proverbial "tent", and TAKES her as his wife...through consumation. That simple.
Does that mean that a woman who doesn't have a living father can't get married?
Is this a serious question or rethorical? If serious, and I'll act on it as if I believed it to be sincere and say yes, of course. And I think I have 'evidence' from the scriptures to support this 'belief'.
But now please, you tell me what scriptural narratives, instances, instructions or otherwise support what I just said, and what (I think) you already believe - but perhaps you may believe this for other reasons than scriptural reasons. I don't know though.
Yes, it is a serious question. I sincerely want to understand what you believe. If I'm reading your response correctly, you are saying that a woman without a living father cannot get married.
I can't really respond to your second paragraph because whatever it is you are asking me for I cannot deduce from how you have written it.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 9:44:46 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 1150
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From: Milwaukee, WI
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
Yes, it is a serious question. I sincerely want to understand what you believe. If I'm reading your response correctly, you are saying that a woman without a living father cannot get married.
Historically women were normally under the authority of a man their entire lives. A daughter was under the authority of her father until a man asked for her in marriage, at which time the father usually had the final say in whether the proposal was accepted or rejected. I don't want to derail the discussion with a contentious argument about whether women should be under such authority today, because that's separate to the topic of this thread, but that is how it was done throughout the Bible. I think that is what P.progress was referring to, but I don't think he meant to imply that a woman who was without a father was somehow disqualified from marriage, and I don't think that was the case in biblical times either. Whoever was the authority over her would make that decision, and if she had none then I suppose she made it herself.
His larger point, I believe, was that the marriage covenant is not dependent on the vows taken, and biblically that is not even a necessary part of the process. When one enters God's institution by agreeing to marry someone else, and is qualified to do so under His regulations, they are both subject to the parameters that He instituted for marriage whether they specifically vowed to them or not, and any vows that they may have taken cannot supercede His established Laws for marriage, so they are essentially invalid unless they confirm His instituted regulations, in which case they are redundant.
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 6:32:00 AM
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car2ner
Posts: 2907
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quote:
I believe, was that the marriage covenant is not dependent on the vows taken, and biblically that is not even a necessary part of the process.
Wow, we agree on this one. For the longest time I was hearing "vows, vows, vows...." and I was saying, "if you are not in right standing with God and your partner was chose outside of God's will, then the vows are just a man made ritual".
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 10:42:39 AM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
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ORIGINAL: p.progress
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ORIGINAL: laura...
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And the process is simple: they, in a sense, BEGIN to be joined together - when the father who can lawfully (God's laws) is willing to "give" his daughter to a man that is lawfully able to "take her to wife", and DOES "give her" to him to become "his wife"; she BECOMES his wife, WHEN they BECOME "one-flesh"; which is WHEN the man BRINGS HER into his proverbial "tent", and TAKES her as his wife...through consumation. That simple.
Does that mean that a woman who doesn't have a living father can't get married?
Is this a serious question or rethorical? If serious, and I'll act on it as if I believed it to be sincere and say yes, of course. And I think I have 'evidence' from the scriptures to support this 'belief'.
But now please, you tell me what scriptural narratives, instances, instructions or otherwise support what I just said, and what (I think) you already believe - but perhaps you may believe this for other reasons than scriptural reasons. I don't know though.
Yes, it is a serious question. I sincerely want to understand what you believe. If I'm reading your response correctly, you are saying that a woman without a living father cannot get married.
I can't really respond to your second paragraph because whatever it is you are asking me for I cannot deduce from how you have written it.
I'm sorry for the confusion it caused you Laura, I failed to make it understandable to you.
First off, NO. I am not saying that "a woman without a living father cannot get married".
Or, to say another way: Yes, I believe that a woman (who is a daughter to some father somewhere, whether alive or dead) can marry 'even' after the death of her father.
Not only do I believe this, I am certain of it. What I meant by saying, "tell me what scriptural narratives, instances, instructions or otherwise support what I just said" (- OR on the contrary, refute what I am asserting), was this: I was inviting YOU to search the scriptures to see for yourself if this 'were so'.
What I was seeking - both for your good and joy (of course, and for all), was for you to "search the scriptures" for yourself, to train yourself to automatically do this, to "see whether those things were SO" - or NOT "so", what comes to your ears from WHOEVER and WHEREVER source - me included to be sure.
And with regard to the part where I said: "...and what (I think) you already believe...", I was meaning to say that I know that you believe this already: "...but perhaps..." as I said: "...you may believe this for other reasons than scriptural reasons. I don't know though".
That is to say that I don't know, but I have my strong doubts that the reason you believe a fatherless woman can marry a man, is because it only seems reasonable to you, NOT necessarily because you have FOUND THIS to "be so" in the scriptures - as yet. This is no 'slap' subtle or otherwise. We all are unconsciously following many things (ideas; philosophies; notions; traditions; conceptions; methodologies; etc.) that we have absorbed and have walked in accordance to, in our lives, in "this present evil world" and "wicked" generation.
"[There is] a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother." -Prv. 30:11
"[There is] a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and [yet] is not washed from their filthiness." -Pro 30:12
And Christ, "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father" [Gal. 1:4], desires, commands and urges us all to seek and find out what his will is, his "good and perfect will", and to 'conform' instead to it...that is be "transformed" by it and into ITS 'conformity'. Or as James puts it, to "...receive with meekness that engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."
Laura, after you've studied and examined the scriptures regarding "daughters", and them being "given" [give-ing; gave] in marriage" (by their fathers; guardians; brothers), and about men "taking" [take; took] a woman "to [be his] wife", please do contact me and tell me what you have come to in your understanding - scripture wise. Thank you.
What SealedEternal said just above in #9891, and explained, I can safely say is accurate relating to my points. Thank you SE, bye Laura.
P.P.
< Message edited by p.progress -- 8/15/2008 11:04:12 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 11:23:02 AM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
I believe, was that the marriage covenant is not dependent on the vows taken, and biblically that is not even a necessary part of the process.
Wow, we agree on this one. For the longest time I was hearing "vows, vows, vows...." and I was saying, "if you are not in right standing with God and your partner was chose outside of God's will, then the vows are just a man made ritual".
The traditional 'taking of marraige vows', is widely misunderstood to be 'Biblical' and a 'Biblical' PREREQUISITE to become lawfully (God's law) 'married' [for pointedly, "one-flesh"] - WHICH IT IS NOT.
Anyone can see this for themselves, just by doing what we ALL are commanded and greatly encouraged to do: "Search the scriptures daily" to see "whether" or NOT "those things were so, that" we ALL WERE TOLD "were so".
It is up to each one of us to do our own homework. But it requires of each of one of us increasing our desire and skill to become savvy in the studying of Scripture (self-trained). So that we may be alert to and quickly take what seeks to enter or minds and hearts through our 'ear gates', and immediately examine it, via the holy scriptures, to determine its authenticity (scriptural) or not.
The problem: And since many things half been allowed to pass into our minds through the 'ear' and 'eye' gates, BEFORE we knew how to discern "whether" they "were so" or not 'so'; we need to go back and re-examine them to see if what we NOW think is true, IS true for certain, or not.
See the implications to the OP? There are those that think that they are free to "marry another", based upon the teaching that the so-called 'marriage vows' when 'broken', permit the 'offended' spouse to "depart", or worse, 'divorce' their offending spouse. And worse by far, they are taught that they are free to 'exercise' some alleged 'right' - conjured up by the 'right to remarry' crowd - to marry another...WHILE THEIR SPOUSE IS STILL ALIVE! Where are the passages that spell out in plain 'English' these so-called 'vows' and 'right' to Marry another? Many claims, little direct spelling it out frrom scripture. Just much interpretive spin of several select vague phrases from this passage and another - to me, none at all holds up.
P.P.
< Message edited by p.progress -- 8/15/2008 11:36:08 AM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 2:18:17 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
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I am versed well enough in the scriptures to say that what scripture records as practiced by the culture and what scripture teaches are two different things. Scripture records that polygamy was practiced throughout the Old Testament times. Polygamy is not taught by scripture.
Scripture records that the culture of the time treated women as property. Daughters were the possession of their fathers or male authority if the father was no longer living. Who they were given to in marriage was decided by their fathers. Just because that was the practice does not mean that is what scripture teaches as the only right and godly way to marry. Scripture certainly records marriages of women without mention of a father giving them in marriage -- Ruth, Abigail, Esther for example.
I also know enough scripture to say that we are given no evidence as to whether or not marriages as recorded in the bible did not include vows. There is no description of an actual marriage ceremony. The Law doesn't outline HOW a couple married. We know parts of the process but not the details. We do know scripture records that covenants did involve vows. Therefore, I believe that since the bible refers to the marriage covenant (Malachi 2:14) then some sort of vows were likely made. However, there is no teaching or command that vows must be made or not needed to be made. Considering that the OT spans 4000 years I would imagine that wedding customs changed and evolved quite a bit.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 5:14:32 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
I am versed well enough in the scriptures to say that what scripture records as practiced by the culture and what scripture teaches are two different things. Scripture records that polygamy was practiced throughout the Old Testament times. Polygamy is not taught by scripture.
Scripture records that the culture of the time treated women as property. Daughters were the possession of their fathers or male authority if the father was no longer living. Who they were given to in marriage was decided by their fathers. Just because that was the practice does not mean that is what scripture teaches as the only right and godly way to marry. Scripture certainly records marriages of women without mention of a father giving them in marriage -- Ruth, Abigail, Esther for example.
I also know enough scripture to say that we are given no evidence as to whether or not marriages as recorded in the bible did not include vows. There is no description of an actual marriage ceremony. The Law doesn't outline HOW a couple married. We know parts of the process but not the details. We do know scripture records that covenants did involve vows. Therefore, I believe that since the bible refers to the marriage covenant (Malachi 2:14) then some sort of vows were likely made. However, there is no teaching or command that vows must be made or not needed to be made. Considering that the OT spans 4000 years I would imagine that wedding customs changed and evolved quite a bit.
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"I am versed well enough ..."
'Enough'? Ok?
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"...in the scriptures to say..."
In "the scriptures" you say? Ok?
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"...that what scripture records as practiced by the culture and what scripture teaches are two different things."
So you say you are versed well "enough" to see that there is a difference between what scripture teaches and what the culture pratices are "two different things". Ok here too? But which culture (and its customs)? The Hebrew culture of 4,000; 3,000; 2,500; 1,000 or 755 years? Or all cultures everywhere and through all time? And the differences that you say that you are "versed well enough in the scriptures" to recognize between the practices of 'the culture' and 'the teaching of scripture', draws you to what conclusion?
You say: quote:
Scripture records that polygam | | |
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thank you Lord for reminding me.