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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:11:19 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
Can those divorced prior to conversion remarry?
Early Church: Yes
You: No
You are attributing something to the early church that one person said... and I just referenced his extrabiblical teaching that was adopted by the catholic church and apparently you as well, and you have provided no scripture to support it.
Can the those abandoned by an unbelieving spouse remarry?
Early church: Yes
You: No
This is again your interpretation of what one person said, who was known for being a heretic...
Must someone who has remarried divorce?
Early church: No
You: Yes
There was no such thing as remarriage to them. They said entering another union post divorce was entering into adultery- not marriage. So this is not a valid question.
Can a spouse who was remarried divorce and remarry their former spouse?
Early church: No
You: Yes
Again, maybe one reference to this. EVEN in cases where they thought Deut. prohibited returning to first... they STILL saw the first as binding for life and the second as adultery. ( in opposition to your view)
Can a believers who has divorced remarry while their former spouse still lives?
Early church: Yes..........NO
You: Yes ..................NO
You keep wording this incorrectly. The answer to BOTH IS NO...............
Can a believer who has divorced remarry after their former spouse has died?
Some of the Early church: No
You: Yes
Are you even reading my posts? I just referenced the ONE person who said that remarriage after death was not allowed, and they were NOT referring to the divorced in that passage. It was also NOT the early church who taught this.
I corrected the one statement that was a typo on my part. However, so far you have not provided a single reference demonstrating the early church believed what you claim they did, and I have provided multiple quote demonstrating they did NOT. I did not provide quotes from only of the early church leaders, I provided them from several.
Here is one example of the kind of deceptive argument you have presented.
quote:
Must someone who has remarried divorce?
Early church: No
You: Yes
There was no such thing as remarriage to them. They said entering another union post divorce was entering into adultery- not marriage. So this is not a valid question.
The quote from Origen that I provided clearly demonstrates that he did accept the validity of such a remarriage, even though he did not condone the choice to remarry (much like John Piper's view).
So far, you have only TOLD us what the early church believes regarding these very objectionable doctrines, but you have NOT provided one reference to substantiate the claims you have made. I am sorry, but I just don't believe you!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:14:29 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
I have never subscribed or claimed any such teaching. Show me one post anywhere in which I have said anything like this.
You believe that divorce prior to conversion doesn't count and you cited Augustine's teaching... who created this doctrine for the catholic church. I just gave some background on his teaching in my post.
What exactly makes divorce prior to conversion not count in your eyes? According to them (and Augustine), it means the marriage never counted... it was never valid.
Again, this is a distortion of what I have said, and actually a distortion of what Augustine said as well.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:17:56 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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Thank you P.Progress for pointing me back to the words of Jesus Christ... the only ones that really matter. I did not want to continue that song and dance anyway... anyone can study for themselves to see how far we've come away from the earliest teachings.
Here is what Jesus and Paul taught.
A woman must not separate from her husband... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
A man must not divorce his wife... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If she does depart, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery... Luke 16:18
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
ANYONE who marries a divorced person commits adultery... Luke 16:18, Matt 5:32, 19:9
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives... 1 Cor 7:39
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If while her husband lives, she is married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress... Rom 7:2-3
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If her husband DIES, she is no adulteress, even though she is married to another man. Rom 7:2-3
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
He who is without sin, cast the first stone...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Forgive 70X7...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Love your enemies...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Do not make a vow and call it a mistake...fulfill your vows.
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
He committed to us the ministry of RECONCILIATION- not counting men's sins against them.
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:24:00 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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Actually, I believe you have got almost completely backwards!!! And that is the point of this thread i.e. you claim that Jesus and Paul said something which the church throughout history has consistently rejected. You claim this is what Jesus and Paul taught, and again I don't believe you!
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
Thank you P.Progress for pointing me back to the words of Jesus Christ... the only ones that really matter. I did not want to continue that song and dance anyway... anyone can study for themselves to see how far we've come away from the earliest teachings.
Here is what Jesus and Paul taught.
A woman must not separate from her husband... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
A man must not divorce his wife... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If she does depart, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery... Luke 16:18
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
ANYONE who marries a divorced person commits adultery... Luke 16:18, Matt 5:32, 19:9
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives... 1 Cor 7:39
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If while her husband lives, she is married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress... Rom 7:2-3
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If her husband DIES, she is no adulteress, even though she is married to another man. Rom 7:2-3
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
He who is without sin, cast the first stone...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Forgive 70X7...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Love your enemies...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Do not make a vow and call it a mistake...fulfill your vows.
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
He committed to us the ministry of RECONCILIATION- not counting men's sins against them.
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:25:03 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
You know the ones you have to invent funny definitions of the word "when" to get around, etc...
You mean like your invented definition of the word "EVERYONE" in Luke 16:18?
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:26:45 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
You know the ones you have to invent funny definitions of the word "when" to get around, etc...
You mean like your invented definition of the word "EVERYONE" in Luke 16:18?
Not even worth a response.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:27:15 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
You claim this is what Jesus and Paul taught, and again I don't believe you!
Oh my... how frightening. These are their own words quoted... NOT MY WORDS. It is them you don't believe... not me- I didn't write it.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:50:34 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
You claim this is what Jesus and Paul taught, and again I don't believe you!
Oh my... how frightening. These are their own words quoted... NOT MY WORDS. It is them you don't believe... not me- I didn't write it.
I believe the words of Jesus and Paul, I DON'T believe your interpretation, nor has the church believed YOUR interpretation as we have demonstrated. Neither the early church, the reformers, nor the present day church accepts YOUR interpretation of their words.
Here are some words from Peter that you should probably consider:
"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was every made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Pe 1:20-21
The fact that YOUR interpretation differs from that of the church for the entire history of the church should be enough for you to reconsider your "own interpretation"!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 1:10:57 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
Greetings SealedEternal. I have some questions and/or comments - I don't know which as yet - regarding what you state here in this protion. You said:
"In fact, when the Pharisees asked Jesus about this particular Law in Matthew 19, He responded saying that whoever had divorced, apart from the cause that Deuteronomy 24 specified, which He said in Greek was "porneia", was committing adultery if they remarried."
In the section where you say, "...apart from the cause that Deuteronomy 24 specified, which He said in Greek was 'porneia'...". Perhaps I am not as well versed, or have as much light on this portion of Deut.24:1-as you and others have, so I am coming from another, perhaps ignorant posisiton; but I don't see that Christ was instructing the Pharisees or us today, that the words, which benelchi has referred to as the 'construct' ''ervat devar'', or KJV translates as "some uncleanness" was for "some pornia" or "some whoredom", or "some harlotry". Perhaps he did equate "some uncleanness" with "porneia", I just have not been able to see this as the case. The only thing that I know at present that might lean some weight to that argument in my present opinion is to take what God did in the case of his whorish and adulterous wife Israel (spoken of in Jer.3:1,8); and in the case where Joseph was contemplating whether to put away Mary or not for her assumed whordom. The law is not ambiguous about what it prescribed as the penalty and punishment to meted out for a betrothed maiden (virgin), who had "played the whore in her father's house" - it was to be death; NO other options are mentioned in that text or in any other text elsewhere in the Law given from Mt.Sinai says: "...save for..." or "...except for the casue of fornication", not that I am aware of any way.
Yet here we read of Joseph who we are told as well, was a righteous man; that he was not willing to have Mary suffer the extreme penalty of this Law, and looked to save her from the death penalty - not by going ahead and taking her to wife, but by putting her away. But by what law or provision in the Law? Where does it provide this kind of an option for the transgressor? I don't know. And I do not see that Deut.24:1-4 was speaking of "saving for...except for fornication", but for "some uncleanness", falling short of the sins of unlawful sexual intercourse.
But let us say for now that is precisely the meaning of "some uncleanness" found in the Deut. passage; here we have two statements that appear to be in conflict with one another: That of the statement by Christ that the provision in the precept of Deut. 24 was for the "hard-hearted". And that of the scriptures testimony that Joseph was a righteous man: "Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily." [mat.1.19]
How could Joseph put her away - allegedly invoking Deut 24:1 - without seemingly being worthy then of being considered a hard hearted man? Can the just minded man, that has sufficient compassion for his betrothed, yet *unfaithful whorish wife (to be), be rightly called 'hard hearted', if he spares her and her family the disgrace of being made a public spectacle, and save her the punishment of death for *her unfaithfulness (and of "playing the whore in her father's house")???
[* Supposed unfaithfulness]
Could Joseph spare her the punishment, even if he wanted to? Was there any provision in the Law for this? Is Deut.24 that provision - if Chrsit said, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so"..."For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept."? I don't think so, but I don't have much light on that question. It is clear that Joseph thought he had a way out for Mary; or was hoping to be able to use some means to put her away. And he was just or righteous, and certainly kind.
I just don't see Deut. for fornication or adultery - the Pharisees were sure quick to stone the adulterous woman. Out of Time. Just food for thought, and desirous to hear from you.
P.Progress,
Do you realize that SealedEternal side stepped your question in his answer? He never really answered what you asked.
If as SealedEternal claims: Duet. 24:1-4 only permits divorce when when it has been discovered that the woman was unfaithful prior to the marriage.
And as SealedEternal claims: Mt. 5 and 19 only allow divorce when it has been discovered that a woman was unfaithful prior to the marriage.
How can it be that Jesus claimed that the Law of Moses was given because of the hardness of men's hearts, and yet permit the same thing in the NT law?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 3:35:44 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
The fact that YOUR interpretation differs from that of the church for the entire history of the church should be enough for you to reconsider your "own interpretation"!
That is a blatant lie... they saw marriage as permanent for life from the beginning and anyone can look for themselves at what has been passed down for 2000 years. The truth is that NOT ONE in history shares your view of how a remarriage that begins as adultery turns into a lawful marriage.
I have NOT interpreted anything... I have simply quoted the words of Jesus Christ that you reject. There is no other interpretation for the verses I quoted- they mean what they say... If you can provide a word for word translation of each verse showing it doesn't mean what it says, please do so- instead of falsely accusing me of misinterpreting.
The fact is you do not accept their words as they are written, you would have to rewrite every one of those to make it fit your interpretation.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 3:59:03 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
So far, you have only TOLD us what the early church believes regarding these very objectionable doctrines, but you have NOT provided one reference to substantiate the claims you have made. I am sorry, but I just don't believe you!
http://www.marriagedivorce.com/mdebook.pdf
here is one of many... anyone can study for themselves and see who is making things up.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 4:19:39 PM
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SealedEternal
Posts: 991
Joined: 3/20/2006
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Do you realize that SealedEternal side stepped your question in his answer? He never really answered what you asked.
If as SealedEternal claims: Duet. 24:1-4 only permits divorce when when it has been discovered that the woman was unfaithful prior to the marriage.
And as SealedEternal claims: Mt. 5 and 19 only allow divorce when it has been discovered that a woman was unfaithful prior to the marriage.
How can it be that Jesus claimed that the Law of Moses was given because of the hardness of men's hearts, and yet permit the same thing in the NT law?
First of all I didn't "side step" anything but answered every question he asked with scriptural references. Secondly, Jesus didn't permit the same thing in the NT:
Matthew 19:3-6 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Jesus responded to the question of whether divorce was permitted by taking them back to Genesis and giving them an unequivocal NO! So the Pharisees thinking they have Him in a contradiction ask Him a different question about the Old Covenant Law:
Matthew 19:7-9 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality (porneia), and marries another woman commits adultery."
He responds confirming there was a provision in the Old Covenant Law that was not given by God in Genesis, but was added to the Laws of Moses due to the hard hearts of the Jews. He then adds however that anyone under the Old Covenant Law who had divorced apart from the cause of "porneia" (immorality/fornication) was committing adultery. This was a condemnation against them since we know from history that the Pharisees had several different "interpretations" of this Law that were much more broad than finding her sexually unclean when he married her. Thus He was condemning the Pharisees, and implying that they should have been stoned to death as adulterers for their abuse of this Law.
In the New Covenant Jesus specifically said that everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery without exception:
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 6:00:55 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
The fact that YOUR interpretation differs from that of the church for the entire history of the church should be enough for you to reconsider your "own interpretation"!
That is a blatant lie... they saw marriage as permanent for life from the beginning and anyone can look for themselves at what has been passed down for 2000 years.
While most believed that remarriage was a always a sin, as does John Piper, all rejected the most objectionable doctrines you keep trying to push. While I disagree with the Early church (and John Piper) on this one detail, I would have absolutely no problem fellowshipping with these men; however, those of you who push this strange doctrine have implied that John Pipers walk was not sincere and even that he may not be a Christian at all simply because he (like the early church) rejects your strange doctrines, and now you have called the early church heretics as well because they rejected your strange doctrines.
quote:
The truth is that NOT ONE in history shares your view of how a remarriage that begins as adultery turns into a lawful marriage.
Go back and read the quote from Origen that I provided, he obviously disagreed with you, and so far you have not provided one reference from anyone in the early church who supported the most objectionable doctrines you keep trying to push.
quote:
I have NOT interpreted anything... I have simply quoted the words of Jesus Christ that you reject. There is no other interpretation for the verses I quoted- they mean what they say... If you can provide a word for word translation of each verse showing it doesn't mean what it says, please do so- instead of falsely accusing me of misinterpreting.
Here is one good word to describe this claim:
BALONEY!
quote:
The fact is you do not accept their words as they are written, you would have to rewrite every one of those to make it fit your interpretation.
But again that is completely false, I will repeat myself:
I believe the words of Jesus and Paul (as they wrote them), but I DON'T believe your interpretation, nor has the church believed YOUR interpretation (as we have demonstrated). Neither the early church, the reformers, nor the present day church accepts YOUR interpretation of the words of Jesus or Paul.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 6:04:52 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SealedEternal
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Do you realize that SealedEternal side stepped your question in his answer? He never really answered what you asked.
If as SealedEternal claims: Duet. 24:1-4 only permits divorce when when it has been discovered that the woman was unfaithful prior to the marriage.
And as SealedEternal claims: Mt. 5 and 19 only allow divorce when it has been discovered that a woman was unfaithful prior to the marriage.
How can it be that Jesus claimed that the Law of Moses was given because of the hardness of men's hearts, and yet permit the same thing in the NT law?
First of all I didn't "side step" anything but answered every question he asked with scriptural references. Secondly, Jesus didn't permit the same thing in the NT:
Matthew 19:3-6 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
Jesus responded to the question of whether divorce was permitted by taking them back to Genesis and giving them an unequivocal NO! So the Pharisees thinking they have Him in a contradiction ask Him a different question about the Old Covenant Law:
Matthew 19:7-9 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality (porneia), and marries another woman commits adultery."
He responds confirming there was a provision in the Old Covenant Law that was not given by God in Genesis, but was added to the Laws of Moses due to the hard hearts of the Jews. He then adds however that anyone under the Old Covenant Law who had divorced apart from the cause of "porneia" (immorality/fornication) was committing adultery. This was a condemnation against them since we know from history that the Pharisees had several different "interpretations" of this Law that were much more broad than finding her sexually unclean when he married her. Thus He was condemning the Pharisees, and implying that they should have been stoned to death as adulterers for their abuse of this Law.
In the New Covenant Jesus specifically said that everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery without exception:
Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
SealedEternal
So are you now acknowledging that Duet. 24;1-4 is speaking about divorce after the marriage and not simply a failed betrothal?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 6:58:34 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
While most believed that remarriage was a always a sin, as does John Piper, all rejected the most objectionable doctrines you keep trying to push.
You are misrepresenting what they taught once again. They did not just teach that it was a "sin"... they taught that it was NOT a marriage... but an adulterous affair because the first one was STILL BINDING FOR LIFE- after divorce and after remarriage. You can show me nowhere that they rejected the fact that if someone is having an affair, that they must stop sleeping with their neighbor's spouse (which is how they themselves described remarriage). It is your doctrines that they reject.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 6:59:34 PM
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keepingfaith
Posts: 706
Joined: 5/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Here is one good word to describe this claim:
BALONEY!
Please show me where I have misquoted Jesus and Paul...
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 7:10:37 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
While most believed that remarriage was a always a sin, as does John Piper, all rejected the most objectionable doctrines you keep trying to push.
You are misrepresenting what they taught once again. They did not just teach that it was a "sin"... they taught that it was NOT a marriage... but an adulterous affair because the first one was STILL BINDING FOR LIFE- after divorce and after remarriage. You can show me nowhere that they rejected the fact that if someone is having an affair, that they must stop sleeping with their neighbor's spouse (which is how they themselves described remarriage). It is your doctrines that they reject.
Yes I can, here is a quote from Origen:
"The Saviour then commanded, 'What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder,' but man wishes to put asunder what God hath joined together, when, "falling away from the sound faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron, forbidding," not only to commit fornication, but 'to marry,' he dissolves even those who had been before joined together by the providence of God. Let these things then be said, keeping in view what is expressly said concerning the male and the female, and the man and the woman, as the Saviour taught in the answer to the Pharisees."
Again, I have provided numerous quotes from the early church that stand in contradiction to your most objectionable doctrines, and you have not been able to find a single quote from the early church that supports those objectionable doctrines. Please stop trying to tell me that I am misrepresenting the early church, when YOU have been unable show support from the early church for any of the doctrines other that the prohibition not to remarry. And it is continually insinuated that those who support only this doctrine (like John Piper), that support only this doctrine and reject the rest of the doctrines you push are false teachers.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 7:12:49 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 174
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Actually, I believe you have got almost completely backwards!!! And that is the point of this thread i.e. you claim that Jesus and Paul said something which the church throughout history has consistently rejected. You claim this is what Jesus and Paul taught, and again I don't believe you!
quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
Thank you P.Progress for pointing me back to the words of Jesus Christ... the only ones that really matter. I did not want to continue that song and dance anyway... anyone can study for themselves to see how far we've come away from the earliest teachings.
Here is what Jesus and Paul taught.
A woman must not separate from her husband... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
A man must not divorce his wife... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If she does depart, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery... Luke 16:18
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
ANYONE who marries a divorced person commits adultery... Luke 16:18, Matt 5:32, 19:9
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives... 1 Cor 7:39
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If while her husband lives, she is married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress... Rom 7:2-3
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If her husband DIES, she is no adulteress, even though she is married to another man. Rom 7:2-3
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
He who is without sin, cast the first stone...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Forgive 70X7...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Love your enemies...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Do not make a vow and call it a mistake...fulfill your vows.
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
He committed to us the ministry of RECONCILIATION- not counting men's sins against them.
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Benelchi, excuse me here but could you clarify for me what you mean when you say: "Actually, I believe you have got almost [ ______ ]completely backwards!!!"
Did you mean to say: "Actually, I believe you have got almost ['everything' - or other] completely backwards [I've said - scripture says - I and scripture; or scripture and I say; other or ____]!!!" FROM what YOU believe and teach.
Or did you mean: "Actually, I believe you have got almost ['everything' - or other] completely backwards [I've said - scripture says - or scripture and I say; other; or ____]!!!", FROM what the CHRIST & the APOSTLES taught?
Or are you saying: "Actually, I believe you have got almost ['everything' - or other] completely backwards!!!", FROM what YOU, & CHRIST & the APOSTLES teach?
And if "almost backwards from" (contrary to) what you might claim the apostles, Christ and the church has taught down through history on these questions or statments by keepingfaith; THEN please point by point, clearly delineate from SCRIPTURE, WHERE it is in the scriptures, YOU FIND what keepingfaith has claimed FOR THEM TO BE IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO THEM. Thank you.
And please - AND I MEAN THIS - PLEASE DON'T ANSWER if you plan on or find yourself failing to answer as I've requested of you.
You can give your opinions AFTERWARDS and elaborate as much as you might wish to on peripheral issues THEN; but for NOW, please first just give the direct quote(s) of your 'proof-texts', you 'think' or 'know' are applicable - then add a brief interpretive explanation that shows how the text(s) you cite explain what you claim for them.
I repeat, please: first just cite (quote) the direct quote the text portion or texts you claim say otherwise - say it with scripture; THEN add your explanation as to how you see that they say what you claim for them - but do so as succinctly (crisp and briefly) a manner as you can.
Here is what keepingfaith said, "Jesus and Paul taught".
A woman must not separate from her husband... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Does not the Lord himself, in this text indeed command/forbid the wife from leaving her husband - that is "not to depart" (put asunder) from her husband? Yes or no?
If you wish to claim that this passage must be interpreted in light of other passages that say you assert say otherwise - claiming there are other passages that are simular in nature and which also include qualifiers to this seemingly otherwise absolute decree of Christ's, then cite them and explain how they change the meaning of this Corinthian declaration.
A man must not divorce his wife... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Again, does not the Lord in this text itself indeed command/forbid the husband to "put away" ('divorce') his wife? Yes or no?
And the texts that you might say qualify and thus change this text's meaning?
If she does depart, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
If you disagree with the statement above: Then what text do you claim clearly spells out that "If she does depart, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled..." [1 Cor 7:10-11] is not to be taken as an absolute prohibition against a wife (professing believer) 'marrying another'...while her husband is still living?
And if so, then what text can you cite that expressly states that a woman is at liberty to "marry another" while her husband is still alive and NOT be subject to being called and thus judged an adulterous?
EVERYONE who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery... Luke 16:18
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
First, what does this mean at face value, without explaining it based upon what you might think the Matthew 'exception clause' (or any other 'caluse') is saying.
Now, does not Lu.16:18 harmonize perfectly with Mk.10:10-12 and 1Cor.7:10 well..on face value at least? Then please read and answer what is laid out below. Afterwards you are free to THEN explain how you think that these passages I just mentioned have to be interpreted in light of whatever else you might say they need to be so interpreted. Thank you.
ANYONE who marries a divorced person commits adultery... Luke 16:18, Matt 5:32, 19:9
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Where in scripture does it state that someone - a man other than her first husband - is able to marry a woman put away, and be free of committing adultery?
A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives... 1 Cor 7:39
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Do you disgree with this? What texts contradict this; or qualifies this in such language that we all can clearly see for ourselves in your 'proof-texts', that what you claim to be the case, is the case? And that without you having to explain how it is that they 'say' this.
If I can't see it plainly expressed in the 'proof-texts' you provide, and must rely upon your 'private' explanation of the text; then I am subject to being mislead and deceived - whether you mean to do this or not.
So please be sure to cite only those 'proof-texts' that actually clearly and plainly interpret themselves for me. Thank you.
If while her husband lives, she is married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress... Rom 7:2-3
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
And where does it say otherwise? Where, what passages can you point to that show that a woman who's husband is still alive, is free to marry another and NOT BE deemed worthy of being called an adultererous?
And so on with the rest of these:
If her husband DIES, she is no adulteress, even though she is married to another man. Rom 7:2-3
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
He who is without sin, cast the first stone...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
'Forgive 70X7...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Love your enemies...
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
Do not make a vow and call it a mistake...fulfill your vows.
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
He committed to us the ministry of RECONCILIATION- not counting men's sins against them.
Jesus- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES
You say: "And that is the point of this thread i.e. you claim that Jesus and Paul said something which the church throughout history has consistently rejected. You claim this is what Jesus and Paul taught, and again I don't believe you!"
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 7:13:13 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2037
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: keepingfaith
quote:
Here is one good word to describe this claim:
BALONEY!
Please show me where I have misquoted Jesus and Paul...
I didn't say that you had misquoted Jesus and Paul, I said you had misinterpreted them. If you would like an example all you need to do is review almost all of your previous posts. The parts of the post that are not a direct quote from the bible are almost always a good example of the kinds of misinterpretations you have made, and the kind for which you have been unable to find any support for in the early church through the church of today.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 7:29:50 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 174
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline
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I separated all this from the previous post, regarding keepingfaith's third (3rd) statement. I realize this may require some investment of time from you, benelchi. But I can assure you that I am very desirous to understand your position from what you would think to be the scriptural perspective. I certainly have some understanding of WHAT you BELIEVE; it is the WHY and WHERE that I am not clear on.
So please don't take any offence to what or how I say or ask what I ask you below. Consider this you instructing me OUT OF THE Scriptures, what I sincerely wish to understand to be the truth - or at least what you think is the truth; your studied opinion on these things. I want to hear you, but I want you use scripture to convince me. So convince me a "gainsayer" if you like, from them, what you claim they say and teach. I'll repeat part of what I said in the previous post:
"If I can't see it plainly expressed in the 'proof-texts' you provide, and must rely upon your 'private' explanation of the text; then I am subject to being mislead and deceived - whether you mean to do this or not.
"So please be sure to cite only those 'proof-texts' that actually clearly and plainly interpret themselves for me. Thank you."
Thank you. And I still am desirous to hear you answer my appeals to you from my previous long and reedited 'edited' post. If and when you have time. Thank you again.
Now:
The following is somewhat long and detailed, and I hope I have proof-read it sufficiently so that it makes enough sense to you to follow and then answer accordingly.
But please first answer all the following in more detail, relative to the statement of keepingfaith - I am referring to his 3rd statement above:
"If she does depart, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled... 1 Cor 7:10-11
Paul- AGREES
Benelchi- DISAGREES .
Now: If I understand you correctly, then I believe you have said that while you would agree that this passage [lu.16:18] declares that a man who puts away his wife and "marrys another" is guilty of commiting adultery, as Christ here clearly states is the case. Yet I believe you have claimed that IF that man merely admits he was wrong, admits he's committed sin by violating this command against divorcing his [I'll add here, his 'lawful'] wife and 'marrying another'; and if he says he is sorry for doing so: That NOT ONLY does this represent 'true repentance' on his part, but that this alleged 'repentance' QUALIFIES him to receive forgiveness from his sins.
Now I think that I would agree with this simple statement and explanation, if the claimed repentance also shown itself to move the man to do ALL that which scripture defines and 'fleshes out' to be the fruits of repentance. But that is not what I hear being defined or taught is necessary in this defintion of 'repentance'.
I hear you and others claim that such 'repentance' qualifies one to NOT only receive forgiveness of one's forsaken sins, BUT grants to them the right to continue in their sins. For such a man is NOT ONLY granted forgiveness for his sins of 'treachery' against his first lawful wife, or forgiveness for his sin of 'putting her away' in his treachery against her, or even his greater sins of adultery agains her (I'll add here: act after act after act of adultery against her and with "another" woman, both in thought and deed before and after he legally aligned himself with her): BUT THAT he is free to remain with the woman Christ refers to as "another"...NO EVEN MORESO. For you claim also on top of all this that not only is he free to remain in this adulterous relationship, he is FORBIDDEN NOT TO SEPARATE from it and her, and you base this upon what, what scripture fobids him to put away his adulteries: Malachi 2:16? NOT SO!
Malachi forbids the putting away of a wife that was LAWFULLY taken; NOT one UNLAWFULLY taken.
We can read that this claim is a bogus one, not only from those passages that define what sin is, and define what true repentance is and declare and define what the one-flesh union is, marriage, divorce and adultery are; but we can read and see that even God's Word CLEARLY demanded separation from unlawful unions (marriages), the "putting away" and divorcement from one's wife (wives)!
Case in point: narratives in Ezra and Nehemiah. The call for repentance in the lives of these men not only demanded (required) they acknowledge their sins, but FORSAKE them. And forsaking their sins was manifested by their SEPARATION from and PUTTING AWAY of their so-called wives and the DISSOLUTION of their so-called 'marriages'. That is the meaning of repentance and the meaning of repentance is acknowledging of one's sin, sorrow for it, which THEN in its natural process, moves one to clear themselves of their sin and the appearance of it as well.
Repentance IS NOT manifested by continuing in one's sin - in such sinful 'marriages'; but in clearing oneself of it.
Now show from scripture where it says otherwise?
What texts say otherwise? Show this claim to be so, by "many infallible proofs".
BUT it appears clear to me and others that you claim such a man IS APPARENTLY FORGIVEN and DOES NOT have to re-turn to, NOR re-concile with, and may NOT 're-marry' HIS real WIFE, his FIRST wife...the wife of his youth, that he sinned against!
Surely you don't say this if she has NOT married another herself do you? The Deut.24 prohibition against seeking to take back a wife one has divorced, and who also subsequently married another man is not applicable in such cases. She has not become defiled. What passage forbids in plain 'English' him from 're'-marrying her?
[Further since his so-called 'marriage' was adulterous, it is clear he must separate from his adulterous union with "another woman"; REGARDLESS of whether or not he can take back his first wife.]
It is clear that you assert that God somehow NOT ONLY cleanses HIM from all his sins; BUT somehow, by some unknown and unexplainable means, God is said to CLEANSE the adulterous relationship he was involved in UP TO his alleged 'repentance', and somehow now sanctifies the adulterous relationship, so that somehow their legal statis granted them | | |
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