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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/16/2009 10:05:39 PM
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John_O
Posts: 7814
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
And, perhaps I have had an invisible shield around me because I have been very hurt and just not sure who to trust. I am starting to come out of it but I don't know if I will ever be the same. I just wish someone would see past it and love me for who I am.
In order to do that you they have to get close enough to see who you are. The walls have got to come down.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/17/2009 7:46:06 AM
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tz3
Posts: 589
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
And, perhaps I have had an invisible shield around me because I have been very hurt and just not sure who to trust. I am starting to come out of it but I don't know if I will ever be the same. I just wish someone would see past it and love me for who I am.
In order to do that you they have to get close enough to see who you are. The walls have got to come down.
Then I guess I am doomed to be single because right now the walls are what is keeping me safe from being hurt anymore.
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/17/2009 8:58:30 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 8047
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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No pain no gain. 
It may sound flip, but it really isn't. Ask anyone who knows me what kind of walls I had/have up and how hard it was for me to break them down.
To be honest, I don't think I broke anything down; I think when I began to trust G-d with my everything is when they slowly faded.
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/17/2009 10:32:11 AM
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dnp200450
Posts: 397
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quote:
Then I guess I am doomed to be single because right now the walls are what is keeping me safe from being hurt anymore.
Hurt and pain is part of growing up. I don't know anyone who hasn't had to deal with both.
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/17/2009 1:07:44 PM
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tz3
Posts: 589
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dnp200450
quote:
Then I guess I am doomed to be single because right now the walls are what is keeping me safe from being hurt anymore.
Hurt and pain is part of growing up. I don't know anyone who hasn't had to deal with both.
Wow, to hear you all talk I am acting like an irrational teenager. Whatever!
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/17/2009 2:21:46 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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So don't do the friends first.
I didn't and so far so good. To be honest I've always been in the "friends first" category and the relationship I'm in didn't start that way. *shrug*
So if it's not a G-d thing then it's a YOU thing and you have to make the effort and conscious decision to just trust people.
I can guarantee it won't be easy and every ounce of your being will fight it, but it will benefit you in the end.
I have friendships that exist because I made the effort to drop a few walls. I have a great boyfriend because not only do I make the effort to drop the walls, but he understands they're up and is VERY patient with me.
I'm praying for you. *huggles*
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/17/2009 3:55:35 PM
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tz3
Posts: 589
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It is not prudent to blindly trust everyone!
And I get sick and tired of especially the worst offenders "those that tell me I am untrusting" being the loudest complainers that I am not trusting. Every time I have attempted to trust this group they have exploited that trust. I am sorry people are going to have to prove they deserve my trust.
A healthy person is not going to demand trust from the get go; they will be patient and allow me to observe them and test them in the small things before I just give them trust in the big things.
And if you mean let down the walls as in get involved in the singles group at my church to make it easier on some guy to approach me that isn't going to happen. The person who hurt my family who is still in leadership is over the Singles group. I wouldn't go near him or his wife of my own accord. Not to mention if I am making it easy on the guy then what else is he going to want me to make easy for him. No, he can earn and win me. I have a lot to offer a man and know how to spoil him rotten but that is for after we say I do. If the man takes the attitude why bother when there are so many other woman out there that will do for me and make it easy then he isn't the right one for me. He will be to easily lead astray when beauty is gone and he deals with an identy crisis of his own and will go looking elsewhere because it's easy and I never made him win my heart he will not value what he already has.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
So don't do the friends first.
I didn't and so far so good. To be honest I've always been in the "friends first" category and the relationship I'm in didn't start that way. *shrug*
So if it's not a G-d thing then it's a YOU thing and you have to make the effort and conscious decision to just trust people.
I can guarantee it won't be easy and every ounce of your being will fight it, but it will benefit you in the end.
I have friendships that exist because I made the effort to drop a few walls. I have a great boyfriend because not only do I make the effort to drop the walls, but he understands they're up and is VERY patient with me.
I'm praying for you. *huggles*
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/17/2009 4:03:54 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 8047
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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Did I say blindly trust people?
*sigh*
Sweetie...relax a bit and take a deep breath. It really isn't the end of the world to trust people. I can count on ONE hand how many people I trust and one three fingers how many I trust COMPLETELY.
If you feel that what you are doing is condusive to creating relationships, establishing healthy boundaries, and learning that to "have friends one must be a friend" and that includes trusting others, then by all means continue what you're doing.
But if you feel that it's time to see some changes in your life, then take a line from Michael Jackson and talk to the Man in the Mirror. 
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/18/2009 9:58:45 AM
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John_O
Posts: 7814
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
I never said I was unapproachable. It is all of you that are saying that about me based on what? The fact that I disagree with you?
No one said you were unapproachable. You asked why guys won't come talk to you and mentioned that the walls were up. I mentioned that the walls ahve to come down for people to approach you (See post 26)
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The fact th I don't have a favorite seat as being a woman my church also has a rule that women are not to be seated next to men unless there are two women sitting together
Those who've read my posts know that I am all in favor of proper boundaries. But this is insane. A man and a woman can't sit next to each other and praise God in fellowship? Utterly insane. How do they expect people to get to know each other if they can't sit next to each other?
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I am not the problem the rules are the problem, but I can't exactly change the rules now can I.
Yes the rules are the majority of the problem. I've learned that almost every time I come to the conclusion that I'm not the problem, I'm the problem. We have got to take responsibility for every situation in our life. Else we have no way to affect it at all and will be constantly tossed about with the wind of events. KWIM?
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He had a girlfriend whom he was about to ask to be his fiance yet he was asking me if he could pray for me and holding my hand. Talk about mixed signals.
(off topic) I've had discussions with people about the intimacy of one-on-one prayer and they said it was no big deal. Here we see that it can be a very big deal.(/off topic)
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So I don't know what the problem is with all the other guys except the rules and this "friends" first thing and wanting introductions.
And here is where the "(wo)man in the mirror comes in. What can you change about yourself to make yourself more approachable? It may be that there is nothing, that you are doing everything perfectly right. But it also may be that you can tweak various behaviors or attitudes to make yourself more welcoming.
I feel that your responses here are somewhat driven by your experiences at your church and that you are reading things in that are not intended to be there.
No one has called you anything. No one has suggested that you are an ogre. People have just said that we all need to make sure that we are doing what we can to fix ourselves (Because, after all, we are the only people we can do anything about. I can't change others, I can only change me)
Edited by mod to remove part of deleted post.
< Message edited by trainfan -- 11/19/2009 5:53:40 PM >
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/19/2009 11:48:04 AM
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tz3
Posts: 589
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
I never said I was unapproachable. It is all of you that are saying that about me based on what? The fact that I disagree with you?
No one said you were unapproachable. You asked why guys won't come talk to you and mentioned that the walls were up. I mentioned that the walls ahve to come down for people to approach you (See post 26)
What wall John? I smile, I laugh, I converse after service, I hug, and when I am in service I am totally focused on God. I volunteer, I was even in the choir so I was visible. Above and beyond this I would have to join the singles group which I am not doing. The pastor of that group is controlling and manipulative and not anointed. That forces me to look out side the church or change churches which I have already said God said NO to. So I am sort of stuck.
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The fact th I don't have a favorite seat as being a woman my church also has a rule that women are not to be seated next to men unless there are two women sitting together
Those who've read my posts know that I am all in favor of proper boundaries. But this is insane. A man and a woman can't sit next to each other and praise God in fellowship? Utterly insane. How do they expect people to get to know each other if they can't sit next to each other?
I know right, but those are the rules and apparently people find ways around them but I am totally clueless as are many people in the church or they ignore the rules and then they are disqualified from any kind of leadership roll at all.
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I am not the problem the rules are the problem, but I can't exactly change the rules now can I.
Yes the rules are the majority of the problem. I've learned that almost every time I come to the conclusion that I'm not the problem, I'm the problem. We have got to take responsibility for every situation in our life. Else we have no way to affect it at all and will be constantly tossed about with the wind of events. KWIM?
Hm, take responsibility and no way to affect the problem. If you mean keep going and being me and speaking up against the problem, that will get me no where except kicked out of leadership because my opinions differ from theirs and then I really will not be affecting or effecting anyone. To lead by example, which is what I do best, is the loudest example there is but that means someone would actually have to pursue me in a fashion that breaks all the rules and still have it come out successful. And I guarantee you they would find some spiritual loop whole which makes it look like a freak accident or completely ordained of God but not the prescribed methodology they tought. Seen and heard this to many times in my church, it really is sad. They have run off many good people this way and I would be gone to if God hadn't told me to sit still.
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He had a girlfriend whom he was about to ask to be his fiance yet he was asking me if he could pray for me and holding my hand. Talk about mixed signals.
(off topic) I've had discussions with people about the intimacy of one-on-one prayer and they said it was no big deal. Here we see that it can be a very big deal.(/off topic)
Yes it is, but I got to say part of this is because he kept his relationship with this other lady a secret ( but you probably understand now why given the church rules) but the fact that his approach was one of caring and concern and there was never any mention of a girlfriend on his part at any time is the problem. There is also a rule at our church that men to pray with women so you can see how I might conclude if he is wanting to pray with me he is going against the rules because he must be interested in me, unless he is not aware of the rules which I highly doubt because he is in leadership and they make the rules clear to everyone in leadership as they don't want any one making them look bad.
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So I don't know what the problem is with all the other guys except the rules and this "friends" first thing and wanting introductions.
And here is where the "(wo)man in the mirror comes in. What can you change about yourself to make yourself more approachable? It may be that there is nothing, that you are doing everything perfectly right. But it also may be that you can tweak various behaviors or attitudes to make yourself more welcoming.
At this point absolutely nothing that I am not already doing.
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calling me things that are not true and telling me to take a look at the man in the mirror as if I am some oger and need an attitude adjustment instead of a fellow christian that happens to disagree with you
I feel that your responses here are somewhat driven by your experiences at your church and that you are reading things in that are not intended to be there.
I realize that my experience is limited to my church and this forum and the books I have read, but quite honestly they are the best places to come to this conclusion because they are christian places. I can not include my experience on singlemomsanddads.com or my experience on jcmatch.com or my experience on dailystrength.com as these places are mostly secular and that would not be comparing apples to apples. In the secular areana there are more men who are agressive enough to date first, but by in far the nice christian men eliminate candidates based on some very narrow criteria looking for mrs perfect out there and mrs perfect doesn't exsist. So the ones that have approached me sorry to say ( and one said he was a christian) were all scam artists looking to exploit the lonelyness of a widow to get money from me by pretending to be interested. So until a nice Christian guy comes along and pursues me openly in my church I guess I am out of luck as I am not to be the one pursuing anyway and I don't have the time or money to be adding another venu to my already busy schedule. So I have not been proven wrong yet. You don't qualify, John. While your a nice Christian man you do not go to my church and you have made it crystal clear I am nothing but a friend. I don't chat with you because that is not what I want. We have agreed to limit our interaction to public forum and I am honoring and respecting that. Seeing as we have not gone out on a date together and never will you don't qualify.
There is another guy from this forum I do chat with on a regular basis but it is crystal clear on both our parts that we are friends and that is all it will ever be and both of us are okay with this which is why I am able to chat with him. It is not a waste of time because we are able to help each other see things from a different perspective and it does not take time away from anyone else so neither one of us are missing out on any possiblities. If we meet someone it is nice to have a sounding board or we may not talk for a while and that is okay we both understand. So I am quite capable of having male friends the line I draw is that there be no attraction if they are to remain a friend and nothing more. If they want more and I am not attracted the relationship ends and if I want more and they are not attracted to me the relationship ends. That is how I like it. I keep those friends around me who I can count on and whom can count on me.
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No one has called you anything. No one has suggested that you are an ogre. People have just said that we all need to make sure that we are doing what we can to fix ourselves (Because, after all, we are the only people we can do anything about. I can't change others, I can only change me)
See my other post I disagree. Personal salutations, use of personal pronouns and the use of the the word But.
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/19/2009 1:38:49 PM
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John_O
Posts: 7814
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
I never said I was unapproachable. It is all of you that are saying that about me based on what? The fact that I disagree with you?
No one said you were unapproachable. You asked why guys won't come talk to you and mentioned that the walls were up. I mentioned that the walls ahve to come down for people to approach you (See post 26)
What wall John?
The one you called "an invisible shield" in your post 25.
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Hm, take responsibility and no way to affect the problem. If you mean keep going and being me and speaking up against the problem, that will get me no where except kicked out of leadership because my opinions differ from theirs and then I really will not be affecting or effecting anyone.
If your doctrine doesn't agree with theirs then do you really want to be in "leadership" with them? (I quoted leadership as I hate that word when used in a Church environment. We are all to be ministers all the time) The people you affect most will not be the ones who are just following leadership but the ones who follow Christ. Also, perhaps by standing up you will give strength to others who would also like to stand up and get things changed. A small pebble can start a mighty avalanche.
I was kind of in this position in one church I attended a while back. I begged God to let us leave but He said no. Turns out I had a skill that they desperately needed (hospitality). They were so lacking in it that when I went around shaking hands the 8th Sunday I was there 1/2 the church looked at me with suspicion and the other half was offended. It took several months for them to come around.
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quote:
So I don't know what the problem is with all the other guys except the rules and this "friends" first thing and wanting introductions.
And here is where the "(wo)man in the mirror comes in. What can you change about yourself to make yourself more approachable? It may be that there is nothing, that you are doing everything perfectly right. But it also may be that you can tweak various behaviors or attitudes to make yourself more welcoming.
At this point absolutely nothing that I am not already doing.
Wonderful! It is important for us to be open and honest, especially with ourselves. If you find that you are doing what is right then keep on doing it.
< Message edited by John_O -- 11/19/2009 1:45:27 PM >
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/19/2009 2:21:17 PM
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trainfan
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ATTENTION: Moderator's Note
Please bring this Thread back on Topic. Thank you.
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< Message edited by trainfan -- 11/19/2009 5:42:34 PM >
_____________________________
Disappoints are inevitable, discouragment is a choice.
Dr. Charles Stanley.
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/19/2009 2:31:40 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2105
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
My order would be:
1. Dating
2. Dating + friendship
3. Dating + friendship + engagment
4. Dating + friendship + marriage
5. Dating + friendship + marriage +kids
6. Dating + friednship + marriage (+ kids grown and living on their own)
When it comes to the process of getting to marriage, I ditto Johnnnnno.... with a wee bit of editing.
That doesn't mean I won't befriend a man in an acquaintance way, in the context of how we see each other regularly -- like at church, at work, at a ministry venue, at a hobby venue (like a bookstore, where you meet in the same book club), at the grocery store (like, the produce guy or someone else you interact with regularly).
But I'm not seeking out to have male pals for companionship. I know that other women have close pals who are male, and that's fine. Right now, in this era of my life, I find that it's not the best for me (or for the guy, usually!).
As far as uprooting and going where the man is, I guess I'd cross that bridge when I come to it. But my preference is not to leave the southeast, since most of my family is within driving distance (well, a loooong drive to some of them). However, for the right guy, I'm sure I'd be willing to revisit that. Planes, trains, and automobiles are great things to use to visit friends and family. And with Facebook and other social media, it's easier to keep in touch, despite great distances. So... it wouldn't be the worst thing ever if I lived away from my family.
I think what's more important to me is that the man I marry and I share a lot of the "important stuff" in common --- values, goals, dreams, beliefs, priorities, and such. Or at least that these things "meld" well. (And the not-so-important things, we'd work on -- we'd agree to disagree but learn to appreciate the fact that we're different people. And joy in that as well as in the commonalities.) And of course, I need to think he's handsome. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
tz3,
I'm not sure I helped with your inquiry. If there is something else you're pondering that you'd like input on, please do point me in that direction.
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/19/2009 4:36:22 PM
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tz3
Posts: 589
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
I never said I was unapproachable. It is all of you that are saying that about me based on what? The fact that I disagree with you?
No one said you were unapproachable. You asked why guys won't come talk to you and mentioned that the walls were up. I mentioned that the walls ahve to come down for people to approach you (See post 26)
What wall John?
The one you called "an invisible shield" in your post 25.
There have been days in the past as I was grieving the loss of my husband that I did not want to be approached. I did not go out of my way to put on a happy face or stifle the crying. This is not the case now. The only thing one could consider a shield is my refusal to participate in the singles group. So while I honestly can not say I don't have any walls up, while I am in the sanctuary or just after service or in any of the positions I serve in the walls are not up and unless you come up to me and ask me to attend the singles group or why I don't attend the singles group you would never know why I chose not to attend the singles group and there for have not information to base the wall or shield theory on. Understand?
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Hm, take responsibility and no way to affect the problem. If you mean keep going and being me and speaking up against the problem, that will get me no where except kicked out of leadership because my opinions differ from theirs and then I really will not be affecting or effecting anyone.
If your doctrine doesn't agree with theirs then do you really want to be in "leadership" with them? (I quoted leadership as I hate that word when used in a Church environment. We are all to be ministers all the time) The people you affect most will not be the ones who are just following leadership but the ones who follow Christ. Also, perhaps by standing up you will give strength to others who would also like to stand up and get things changed. A small pebble can start a mighty avalanche.
I was kind of in this position in one church I attended a while back. I begged God to let us leave but He said no. Turns out I had a skill that they desperately needed (hospitality). They were so lacking in it that when I went around shaking hands the 8th Sunday I was there 1/2 the church looked at me with suspicion and the other half was offended. It took several months for them to come around.
I remember you sharing this with me in one of our chat sessions a while back and I would normally agree with you, but God has made it very clear that I am there for the parents of the children whom they minister to and that my ministry has not yet begun. The fact that I am suffering a huge personal loss here and meeting so much opposition seems to be part of my purification, strengthening and training to prepar me for that day when my ministry developes teeth sort of speak like a baby cutting his/her first teeth. This battle is not the one I was put here to fight but may be won on the side because of what I eventually do. As it is right now I am strong enough for me and my family and maybe a boyfriend and my work but beyond that I haven't gotten my sea legs yet to be able to stand up to these people as I would like. So for now I follow the Lord because He will not give me more than I can handle.
I am not about to join the singles group to prove a point or be a pebble in any ones side or talk behind their backs or be the agressor and ask single guys in church out to prove a point. That is not my style and the singles group is not the group God told me to minister to. It is not the group I have been annointed to minister to. In fact if you were to take a look at my friends it would become crystal clear the group God has annointed me to minister to. They are all people slightly younger than me who are married with kids, their oldest being my youngest son's age or battered and abused women and teen girls and the homeless as it is this group that makes my heart break when their relationships are not going right. It is this group I have first hand and personal experience in from which I can draw strength and wisdom and healing from as it is what God has brought me through and I can point them back to God. The man that is the right fit for me I would guess would have a similar soft spot and passion for the restoration and healing of relationships. Be it husband wife or parent child.
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So I don't know what the problem is with all the other guys except the rules and this "friends" first thing and wanting introductions.
And here is where the "(wo)man in the mirror comes in. What can you change about yourself to make yourself more approachable? It may be that there is nothing, that you are doing everything perfectly right. But it also may be that you can tweak various behaviors or attitudes to make yourself more welcoming.
At this point absolutely nothing that I am not already doing.
Wonderful! It is important for us to be open and honest, especially with ourselves. If you find that you are doing what is right then keep on doing it.
Thank you, this is so much more positive then someone picking me apart trying to find fault with me just to say see her way of date first doesn't work because she has some real problems.
< Message edited by tz3 -- 11/19/2009 4:54:42 PM >
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/19/2009 4:59:48 PM
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tz3
Posts: 589
Status: offline
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Thanks Elena,
I think you hit on one of the points I made way back that it's an age thing. You me and John seem to be on the same page. I am guessing we are all about the same age.
The younger crowd and those in church leadership seem to be the one biggest pushers of the Friends first thing and of course they have a big audience with those who have been divorced and are operating out of fear and seeing as they may have done it the worlds way and don't know a better way of doing it they are trying the friends first way. Just my observation. I know it is a broad generalization and I am sure there is an exception to the rule. No doubt someone will pipe up here who is a christian perhaps was even a minister who's relationship ended in divorce who will take exception to this comment. I welcome the comment as an opportunity to learn.
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ORIGINAL: Elena1030
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ORIGINAL: John_O
My order would be:
1. Dating
2. Dating + friendship
3. Dating + friendship + engagement
4. Dating + friendship + marriage
5. Dating + friendship + marriage +kids
6. Dating + friendship + marriage (+ kids grown and living on their own)
When it comes to the process of getting to marriage, I ditto Johnnnnno.... with a wee bit of editing.
That doesn't mean I won't befriend a man in an acquaintance way, in the context of how we see each other regularly -- like at church, at work, at a ministry venue, at a hobby venue (like a bookstore, where you meet in the same book club), at the grocery store (like, the produce guy or someone else you interact with regularly).
But I'm not seeking out to have male pals for companionship. I know that other women have close pals who are male, and that's fine. Right now, in this era of my life, I find that it's not the best for me (or for the guy, usually!).
As far as uprooting and going where the man is, I guess I'd cross that bridge when I come to it. But my preference is not to leave the southeast, since most of my family is within driving distance (well, a loooong drive to some of them). However, for the right guy, I'm sure I'd be willing to revisit that. Planes, trains, and automobiles are great things to use to visit friends and family. And with Facebook and other social media, it's easier to keep in touch, despite great distances. So... it wouldn't be the worst thing ever if I lived away from my family.
I think what's more important to me is that the man I marry and I share a lot of the "important stuff" in common --- values, goals, dreams, beliefs, priorities, and such. Or at least that these things "meld" well. (And the not-so-important things, we'd work on -- we'd agree to disagree but learn to appreciate the fact that we're different people. And joy in that as well as in the commonalities.) And of course, I need to think he's handsome.
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tz3,
I'm not sure I helped with your inquiry. If there is something else you're pondering that you'd like input on, please do point me in that direction.
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/19/2009 5:05:26 PM
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tz3
Posts: 589
Status: offline
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Just to stay in compliance does any wish to give a pros and cons list contrasting the two sides?
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/19/2009 5:15:51 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2105
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tz3
Thanks Elena,
I think you hit on one of the points I made way back that it's an age thing. You me and John seem to be on the same page. I am guessing we are all about the same age.
Well, yes, the three of us are all out of our 20s. But I am 34, and I believe that John is above 45. I don't remember how old you are.
I'm not sure that it is an age thing. True -- the influence of the philosophy of I Kissed Dating Goodbye and the courtship movement took hold around the time that those who are now in their 20s were in high school and college. But in the "friends first or not" discussions we've had here in the past, there were folks of various ages (20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and on) on both sides.
I'm not sure about pros and cons. I just know why my preference is to just go ahead and date.
And there are two aspects of this issue: (1) Can men and women be close friends? and Is it wise, in general? and (2) Why do some believe in "friends first" and others do not, when it comes to dating?
I wonder if those old threads are still viewable.
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Let's be friends and courtship - 11/20/2009 8:40:54 AM
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tz3
Posts: 589
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
And there are two aspects of this issue:
(1) Can men and women be close friends? and Is it wise, in general? and
Well, I guess that depends on what your defenition of friends is. According to Webster "Friends" is defined as follows:
1. a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard.
2. a person who gives assistance; patron; supporter: friends of the Boston Symphony.
3. a person who is on good terms with another; a person who is not hostile: Who goes there? Friend or foe?
4. a member of the same nation, party, etc.
5. (initial capital letter) a member of the Religious Society of Friends; a Quaker.
From this I can say a friend is someone I am on good terms with, either have something they need or they have something I need in terms of assistance or support, and may share a common interest or experience or belief with and may hold in high regard. I am leaving out the feelings of affection here because that is shacky ground. I don't always feel affection for my friends but I do hold them in high regard. Now the closer and trustworthy a friend is and the more experiences we share over time could develop affection, but for the most part these are my inner circle friends and do not apply to the getting to know you and dating type of "friends" first in my oppinion.
The whole thrust behind the I Kissed Dating Good Bye and the "Friends" First movement is to change our view of dating from a self gratifing emotional roller coaster to an attitude that is not self centered and self gratifying and does not play game of manipulation coercion and suduction in order to get what we want and takes it a step to far in my opinion. I am all for getting to know ones self what your giftings and calling is, your likes and dislikes and coming up with a list of things that are deal breakers, and nice perks. This time of self discovery helps people to learn what will is truly please and will make them happy. This time allows them to have the mind renewed so that the things on their list are healty and pure as God intended. It helps them not only be able to identify in themselves what is good and bad and deal with it, it also allows them to discerin in others what qualities they like or dislike, but this is a percarious place to be because it can turn into judgemental and a critical way of thinking where one becomes to picky. It is good for teaching us to recognize who is safe and who is not and being able to draw a boundries with everyone not just friends.
But it goes to far in that it has become mandated from the pulpet as the gospel way of doing things because it reduces the number of head achs pastors deal with. The result is you have a prolonged stage of immaturity that is said it is okay to be 30 or 40 and still be single because you haven't found the perfect person yet. Well the perfect person doesn't exsist. It doesn't help people to deal with fear it enables them to hide behind a social phenominone. It is bad in that when people wait so long to marry there are fewer and fewer children born for a plethera of reasons. It is bad because it dictates and controls how everyone else finds a mate who may not agree with this methodology there by hindering them from their ultimate goal of finding the right person. Last but not least it is not Biblical.
While "Date" first has gotten a bad rap in the past from those who did it the "Worlds" way I think there is room here for a more moderate and healthy middle ground. I must say though it is in it's infancy and has not gained a large following because there are so many who are hurting and healing and immature that have jumped on the "friends" first band waggon.
Dating first allows men first and formost to be and function as God intended them to be, LEADERS and HUNTERS. What man doesn't get just a little pumpled up when faced by a challenge he knows he can conqure, and what man doesn't feel good about himself when he is recognized as a capable and leader who is able to provide, protect, and plan for himself and others?
Dating first allows be in their rightful rolls as well as the ones who are supposed to be focused on God and serving him until God moves the man into her path to find her. This is Biblical! During this time she is learning home making skills, management skills, communication skills, conflict management skills, and how to care for her self and others. By the time she meets Mr. Right the only adjustments she should need to make is perhaps learning his trade and preferences so that she can be a proper helpmate.
Dating first when do the Christian way not the Worlds way takes everything you have learned during that time you stopped dating to get your act together and provides ground for you to put into practice and exercise the self control, self respect and the healthy selfless ness you learned during your self discovery period of not dating. It allows both men and women to progress at the same pace during the getting to know you phase and the by product of this is that both people have the acknowledged right to stop or continue. It eliminates the whole mentality of I have been waiting so long and I have lots of friends but no one is interested in me or the wow someone is finally interested in me I better snap him up because other wise I could be 60 and single. There is no reason for this if we allow men to be men.
And what christian woman doesn't get just a little gitty when a man pays attention to her but if she never has a man pay any attention to her she may over react at the first guy who does and lose her equalibrium and make bad choices. Being friends with guys does not solve this problem. Having men ask you out on dates does even if nothing every comes of it at least you know your not repulsive to the general male populous.
I do believe men and women can be friends but I do not think they will ever be the same as same gender friendships and the never should. While guys may be having a conersation about cars the girls are wondering about the owners of the cars not exactly the same thing and the guys are left scratching their heads thinking we were talking about cars right? I know this is an over simplification and men and women can have some really good in depth conversations but that is the deviding line between a conversation you would have with a really close inner cirlce girl friend and one you might have with a guy. When couples starte sharing intimate or emotionally charged information there is the opening for emotional promiscuity to occure which creates ties on at least one person's part and it is usually the female as males are more easily able to compartmentalize events and emotions, but I am sure it does happen to them especially if there is an unspoken attraction there in which he hopes you will eventually return his affections, time, attention, etc. And I am sure there are some women out there that, well don't pick up on this kind of thing. As a friend of mine said to me her to be husband had to nearly hit her with a 2 by 4 over the head with his aggression before she would cop to the fact that he was interested in her for more than just a friend. I think this is a bit extreem but she is who she is. *shrug* it worked for her.
I think either approach (friends first or dating first) in the long run is good and fine so long as we as a society do not mandate from the pulpet or look down upon in judgement those who don't do it their way. I think if the Friends First crowd were to stay open to dating that would make everything much easier on everyone instead of saying oh no I don't date anyone they HAVE to be my friend first, which is what I hear over and over and over again. It just makes me cring. Bottom line don't hide behine the friends first approach if your off the market because your hurt and healing be honest and say I am not dating right now people will respec that and it will IMHO calm down some of this friends first thing from being such a huge social movement that is totally unbiblical.
The I kissed dating goodby I don't believe was ever ment to become what hurting unhealthy people have made it out to be. And Yes, I have read both his books although I read the second one first.
quote:
(2) Why do some believe in "friends first" and others do not, when it comes to dating?
Personal experience amount of grounding in the word of God and ability to think for ones self not just follow the crowd. Some people are followers and some people are leaders by nature.
I wonder if those old threads are still viewable.
< Message edited by tz3 -- 11/20/2009 8:48:49 AM >
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