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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 11:34:11 PM
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Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: Liveloved
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If the idioms and symbolism of the Tanach are of no value, why would Paul use them so extensively?
Because Paul's desire was for ALL to come to salvation. Those idioms and symbols were a part of their heritage. Paul was using the things they knew to bring them the knowledge of salvation through Jesus. At Mars Hill, for example, he spoke quite differently. He spoke to what he knew his audience would understand.
Yes, on his first encounter with the phylosophers of Athens he used their phylosophy as a jumping off point. However, in his espistles he quoted from the Tanach. Are you of the belief that the epistles were all written to jewish communities?
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The Lord is gracious and reveals as we are ready to learn. As a young child, He called to me as I sang 'Holy, Holy, Holy'. The church I grew up in no longer teaches what I consider the basics of the faith. Yet the Lord found me. And has graciously taught me. And, yes, the closer I grow to Him, the more I want to understand of Him and His ways.
That is good. However, as I pointed out, he quotes the Tanach in the epistles, are these to be taken as sunday school lessons only for young believers or serious doctrine?
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Is He a trustworthy Teacher? Will He guide me into all truth? Will He teach me about all things? His word tells me so.
Yes, His word tells us so. He is a trustworthy Teacher who will guide us into all truth and teach us about all things as His Spirit applies the principles He outlines in His word.
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Visceral? Yes, I am passionate about Jesus. The rending of the veil should illicit a visceral response if one understands it at all. The visceral response is the proper response to what Christ has done for us and the personal price He paid for our salvation.
That may be true, but it is not the purpose of this thread. We can all post our visceral responses to the topic, but that does not give us any more understanding of what is being communicated in the symbolic passages of the Scriptures.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/6/2009 11:43:18 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/7/2009 12:50:41 AM
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Corne
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Close, the veil is Yeshua's flesh which was rent and through which Adonai views us. We have not discussed the Spirit of Adonai. That would be the incense, which continually burns before the veil and also fills the Temple. Therefore, in Adonai's Kingdom Adonai's Spirit has continually passed through the veil and enveloped The Holy of Holies. At the same time it has also moved throughout the temple envigerating the priests, His people, who minister to Him and those in the outer court, training them in the ways of Adonai. Of course, we can not get into what those ways are in this thread. Even examining the practices of the outer court or the duties in the temple would beg the question of how those things apply today. That line of discussion has been reserved for what might be considered "the holy place" in the doctrine folder. 
That is not a standard rendition of symbolism, saying that the incense represents the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/7/2009 1:15:49 AM
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ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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Things are so drastically changed there is no longer any need for a literal Temple whatsoever to do the things that used to be done there. All that now gets done right on the altar of the heart through the better and lasting things of Christ himself. The torn curtain is the symbol of that drastic change. Hebrews makes this drastic change so abundantly clear, even calling the old way obsolete.
Obsolete may not be a proper translation. Some translate it as old and aging. Now I hate to think of myself as obosolete. However, if by obsolete he means gone forever, what are we to do with this passage?
Zech 14:19-21 "This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. On that day ~holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty."
Why does this have to be literal? It isn't now, yet these things are being fulfilled already. Who do you think the cooking pots and sacred bowls are? We are the vessels and sacred bowls used in the worship and service of God. That's more real and active and meaningful than if the prophecy is talking about the literal utensils of the Temple.
There is much symbolism in the book of Zechariah. You don't have to know exactly what parts are literal and which parts are symbolic to know it's not an entirely literal prophecy (for some parts are plainly labeled as being symbolic). And as I'm saying, it's easy to see how these kinds of things are already fulfilled (symbolically) now, in the body of Christ. Why do we have to understand them as only being literal when Christ returns and not symbolic things that he will do among the Jews that he has already done among the gentiles? You are aware of how Hebrews spiritualizes sacrifices in chapter 13, aren't you? The author shows how the literal sacrifices are now fulfilled spiritually. Read the chapter. The Jews will one day fulfill these sacrifices, and the other things spoken about there, spiritually just as the gentiles are already doing. It's quite appropriate and reaonable to understand Zech. prophecy in the same vein of interpretaion.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I guess when Yeshua returns we will know for sure if the earthly Temple is "obsolete" or not. However, it appears to me that there will be sacrifices when the Kingdom is literally established.
Why does it matter what Jesus will institute when he appears again? For now the Bible plainly teaches that the literal Temple system is obsolete, if not forever, definately until Jesus comes back. Why do we have to change that just because the possibility exists that there will be another (modified) Temple during the Mill? It's obsolete NOW. My Bible tells me so. Is it honest to say that's not true when the Bible plainly says it is true?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
... the use of the phrase, "The veil was rent." as nonsequitor is not valid. One must come up with an actual argument based on different information that more directly speaks to the various issues with regard to things mentioned in the Tanach(OT).
Hebrews tells us the tearing of the curtain is symbolic of the end of the old way to the place of atonement and the revealing of the new way. What is it about that that you can't accept all by itself apart from the rest of scripture? It seems you're clouding the obvious lesson of Hebrews to guard your determination to preserve the literal Temple as an object lesson--the Temple Hebrews says is now obsolete and passing away, and has literally passed away as prophesied by Jesus in the gospels. The prophecy the author of Hebrews could very well be referring to.
We have the written law to provide the necessary object lesson of the literal Temple. Do you think I was moved to tears of gratitude in this thread, as I shared, because I walked through a literal Temple and handled literal utensils, or because the words of the OT were more than sufficient to stir in me a heartfelt appreciation for what Christ did in ending the legislated separation from God dictated and established and enforced by the law (of the Temple)?
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/7/2009 1:52:42 AM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/7/2009 1:36:44 AM
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ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: Liveloved
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So, if we look to the earthly temple we can come to a better understand how things are in Adonai's Kingdom. Thus rather than diminishing the importance of the earthly temple, the rending of the veil brings it's value into proper prospective.
What comes into proper perspective through the rending of the veil is JESUS. He is ALL. He is EVERYTHING.
To emphasize anything other than JESUS and His finished work on Calvary is to diminish the most important thing.
The value of the rent veil is that this unworthy, rebellious one (moi) has been forgiven and by repenting and believing in Jesus' sacrifice for me, I receive all that God has for me. I am now His child. I am now royalty. I am a priest. His seal is upon me. I am seated in the heavenlies. I have an inheritance reserved in heaven and protected by the power of God.
I love Jesus. And I am filled with thankfulness and awe for all He has done and continues to do. That's how things are in the kingdom of God. . . living in the glory. 
Who needs an earthly temple when we have Christ in me, the hope of glory?
The problem with that view is in knowing what those things mean. As Paul says with regard to covetiousness, (Rom. 7:7b) "I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."" Things presented in the Tanach(OT) cause us to ask questions we would not otherwise ask and provide a better understanding of what those things actually mean. How do we know what "JESUS" and His finished work on Calvary is without knowing who Adonai is and what it means for Him to save? We get these concepts from the Tanach. How would we understand substitutionary sacrifice without the concept of a proper sacrifice as presented in the Tanach? How would we make sense of much of what Paul says without the Tanach to which he repeatedly refers? Finally, how would we even have a clue as the what Yeshua meant when He said, "It is finished.", if we did not know where to look to find out what "it" is? Each of the sentences in your second paragraph refers to some thing or concept that was alien to everyone who was not familiar to some extent with the Tanach in Paul's day.
Your personal experience and what one should do today is beyond the scope of this thread, we are talking about the symbolism of the rent veil and not one's viceral reaction to it. If the idioms and symbolism of the Tanach are of no value, why would Paul use them so extensively?
I don't think the argument is against the written words of the OT being the way in which we understand and appreciate the redemptive work of Christ. Nobody's throwing that out. It is the argument that the Bible somehow defends the usefulness of a continuing, literal Temple system for properly understanding the work of Christ and that somehow Hebrews isn't suggesting an end to that. It just isn't there. The exact opposite argument is in Hebrews. Besides, the physical evidence backs it up. The author of Hebrews tags the prophecy of the literal end of the Temple onto the argument as if for proof of what he's saying about the end of that system, for any and all purposes. The scriptures simply aren't on your side on this one.
If there's one thing that really bothers me is making the plain message of scripture go away through detailed reinterpretations designed to make the obvious go away. I can't help but to see your arguments as being that. That's not a personal attack. That's just how your doctrine comes across to me. You're looking at this through the colored lenses of some predetermined beliefs you're trying to preserve. Whatever those might be.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/7/2009 1:43:37 AM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/7/2009 2:09:31 AM
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ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
Let me see if I am grasping this properly Blue, by doing it in my own words.
The torn veil represents Yeshua's sacrifice and resurrection.
It is through that that we have access to Adonai (this, under the line of thinking of "no one comes to the Father except through me").
What the veil did not do was "loose Adonai's Spirit everywhere" but made the Holy of Holies accessible to us, however, only through the Temple (in the symbolic form), and this done by Yeshua's sacrifice.
Is this sounding right?
Close, the veil is Yeshua's flesh which was rent and through which Adonai views us. We have not discussed the Spirit of Adonai. That would be the incense, which continually burns before the veil and also fills the Temple. Therefore, in Adonai's Kingdom Adonai's Spirit has continually passed through the veil and enveloped The Holy of Holies. At the same time it has also moved throughout the temple envigerating the priests, His people, who minister to Him and those in the outer court, training them in the ways of Adonai.
People who subscribe to this doctrine never explain why Christ had to die so that the Holy Spirit could be sent from heaven, and what changed because of that. Something is very different today in regard to the movement and ministry of the Holy Spirit in and among God's people now that Christ has died. This kind of teaching refuses to acknowledge the barrier that the old system was to the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Conditions had to be met, and met perfectly, by the priesthood before the Spirit would fill the literal Temple. Thankfully, through Jesus that infilling is accomplished through his perfect work on our behalf that the Levitical priesthood and Temple illustrated, but which now occurs through his ministry, and in the new Temple of our bodies. The Temple in this regard was a shadow of better things to come that are here now.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/7/2009 2:27:47 AM
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ChainSaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Close, the veil is Yeshua's flesh which was rent and through which Adonai views us. We have not discussed the Spirit of Adonai. That would be the incense, which continually burns before the veil and also fills the Temple. Therefore, in Adonai's Kingdom Adonai's Spirit has continually passed through the veil and enveloped The Holy of Holies. At the same time it has also moved throughout the temple envigerating the priests, His people, who minister to Him and those in the outer court, training them in the ways of Adonai. Of course, we can not get into what those ways are in this thread. Even examining the practices of the outer court or the duties in the temple would beg the question of how those things apply today. That line of discussion has been reserved for what might be considered "the holy place" in the doctrine folder.
That is not a standard rendition of symbolism, saying that the incense represents the Holy Spirit.
I would say it represents praying in the Holy Spirit.
Revelation speaks of the 'golden bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints' (I'm tired, not gonna look it up right now). It's but another illustration of giving back to God that which he has given us. It's all about worshiping and serving God through Jesus by the Holy Spirit now. The Holy Spirit is how we have Jesus. And the Holy Spirit is how we give him back to God in acceptable sacrifice and service and worship. Our praise, our worship, our prayers, our love...all of it mingled with the Holy Spirit and going up to heaven in a pleasing and acceptable aroma. It's all about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...the acceptable and true sacrifice and way to approach God that has now been disclosed to us. And that is all done through the Holy Spirit. The incense of the Temple speaks of the day that that would be the reality of how his people would relate to him and minister before him in worship and service, sending the acceptable aroma of the Holy Spirit (Jesus) up to God. Jesus through the Holy Spirit is what God wants from us. In our prayers. In everything we do for him.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/7/2009 2:43:19 AM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/8/2009 3:59:32 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2935
Joined: 11/8/2007
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ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Zech 14:19-21 "This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. On that day ~holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty."
Why does this have to be literal? It isn't now, yet these things are being fulfilled already. Who do you think the cooking pots and sacred bowls are? We are the vessels and sacred bowls used in the worship and service of God. That's more real and active and meaningful than if the prophecy is talking about the literal utensils of the Temple.
Why not? This is interpreting the things of the temple, just as I have. The cooking pots in Adonai's Kingdom are represented by the sacred bowls in front of the earthly alter. One day, I am not saying today, kodesh Adonai, will be so common a phrase that it will be written on the bells of horses and not just on the crown of the High Preist Ex. 39:30. Your interpretation does not fit the context nor do I find a similar interpretation in all of the Scriptures. It appears that it imposses a doctrinal bias that conceals meaning rather than revealing it.
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There is much symbolism in the book of Zechariah. You don't have to know exactly what parts are literal and which parts are symbolic to know it's not an entirely literal prophecy (for some parts are plainly labeled as being symbolic). And as I'm saying, it's easy to see how these kinds of things are already fulfilled (symbolically) now, in the body of Christ. Why do we have to understand them as only being literal when Christ returns and not symbolic things that he will do among the Jews that he has already done among the gentiles? You are aware of how Hebrews spiritualizes sacrifices in chapter 13, aren't you? The author shows how the literal sacrifices are now fulfilled spiritually. Read the chapter. The Jews will one day fulfill these sacrifices, and the other things spoken about there, spiritually just as the gentiles are already doing. It's quite appropriate and reaonable to understand Zech. prophecy in the same vein of interpretaion.
Yes, there is much symbolism in all of the Tanach. One may see how one can apply various passages to Yeshua, but that does not mean that they are the one and only "fulfillment" of those passages. If you can show how Adonai is doing these things among the gentiles and not the jews, I would be glad to see that interpretation, so we can see if it fits the context.
I am aware of how Hebrews 13 reveals the reality that is symbolized in the furnishings and practices of the Temple. That is exactly what I have been talking about. Vs. 10 says, "We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat." this of course refers to the portion of the earthly sacrifice that the earthly priests are permitted to take from some of the offerings to be consumed by them in the earthly Temple. This is a symbol of what we are told in (Ro 8:17) "Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." We, the preists in Adonai's kingdom, partake in The Sacrifice of Yeshua that is symbolized by the earthly priests taking part in the earthly sacrifices. The first is the reality the second the symbol.
We see a similar revelation in vss 11-13
11. "The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp." The symbol.
12. "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." The reality.
13. "Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore." The application of that reality in this world.
14. "For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come." The interpretive principle I have presented as a justification for these interpretations.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I guess when Yeshua returns we will know for sure if the earthly Temple is "obsolete" or not. However, it appears to me that there will be sacrifices when the Kingdom is literally established.
Why does it matter what Jesus will institute when he appears again?
Paul clearly cares what Yeshua will institute when he returns. (1 Cor. 15:51-54) "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory.""
Where does Paul get "the trumpet will sound". One could say that he gets it from Mt. 24:31 "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Is this another "new" concept that is first mentioned by Yeshua? No, like the trumpets that warn us of the comming of Yom Kippur, this passage ties together several images from The Tanach to apply them to His second coming. So, it is also important to Yeshua what He will do when He returns.
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For now the Bible plainly teaches that the literal Temple system is obsolete, if not forever, definately until Jesus comes back. Why do we have to change that just because the possibility exists that there will be another (modified) Temple during the Mill? It's obsolete NOW. My Bible tells me so. Is it honest to say that's not true when the Bible plainly says it is true?
That is a debatable point. As I pointed out that term is translated "obsolete" in only one of the three times it is used in the Apistolic writings.
In the others it is translated as wears out or waxes old. This does not necessarily mean it become immediately useless, but as it is used in reference to this world in Heb. 1:11 it will eventually pass away. As I also noted before there are differing opinions even among those in my community regarding what is means that the "temple system" will pass away, right away, over time, a prophetic reference to 70AD or something else. That is not clear. What is clear is that the reality of Adonai's Kingdom, which the temple and preisthood represent, will not become worn out. Therefore, the symbolism of those things is a good reminder of the realities of Adonai's Kingdom.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
... the use of the phrase, "The veil was rent." as nonsequitor is not valid. One must come up with an actual argument based on different information that more directly speaks to the various issues with regard to things mentioned in the Tanach(OT).
Hebrews tells us the tearing of the curtain is symbolic of the end of the old way to the place of atonement and the revealing of the new way. What is it about that that you can't accept all by itself apart from the rest of scripture?
That is one view of what Paul is saying. However, I believe it is more honorable to consult the whole council of Adonai. As Luke says of the bereans, (Acts 17:11) "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Also, Paul himself instructs Timothy by saying, (2Ti 3:16)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
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It seems you're clouding the obvious lesson of Hebrews to guard your determination to preserve the literal Temple as an object lesson--the Temple Hebrews says is now obsolete and passing away, and has literally passed away as prophesied by Jesus in the gospels. The prophecy the author of Hebrews could very well be referring to.
Just because there is no Temple does not mean we can not still learn from what is recorded of it in the Scriptures. I don't recall saying anything about preserving the literal temple. I merely stated that it appears there will be one in the future. Whether there is one or not does not diminish the object lesson.
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We have the written law to provide the necessary object lesson of the literal Temple. Do you think I was moved to tears of gratitude in this thread, as I shared, because I walked through a literal Temple and handled literal utensils, or because the words of the OT were more than sufficient to stir in me a heartfelt appreciation for what Christ did in ending the legislated separation from God dictated and established and enforced by the law (of the Temple)?
Again I have not called for a rebuilding of the temple in this thread. In fact I specifically said, "I guess when Yeshua returns we will know for sure if the earthly Temple is "obsolete" or not." It is you who seem to be offended by the suggestion that your view my not be correct with regard to a possible earthly temple.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/8/2009 4:14:55 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/8/2009 4:49:37 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2935
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Close, the veil is Yeshua's flesh which was rent and through which Adonai views us. We have not discussed the Spirit of Adonai. That would be the incense, which continually burns before the veil and also fills the Temple. Therefore, in Adonai's Kingdom Adonai's Spirit has continually passed through the veil and enveloped The Holy of Holies. At the same time it has also moved throughout the temple envigerating the priests, His people, who minister to Him and those in the outer court, training them in the ways of Adonai.
People who subscribe to this doctrine never explain why Christ had to die so that the Holy Spirit could be sent from heaven, and what changed because of that.
I am not sure which passage you are refering to, but Yeshua and Adonai's Spirit are both Adonai, there is no need for Adonai's Spirit to be there when Yeshua is. Yeshua did not die to send Adonai's Spirit. Yeshua died to make us acceptable to Adonai. He is the veil through which Adonai sees us. When He looks at us He sees the rent veil and imparts His Spirit to us on that basis. Before the veil was rent, He still saw us through the veil that would be rent and imparted His Spirit on that basis. In either case He imparted His Spirit.
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Something is very different today in regard to the movement and ministry of the Holy Spirit in and among God's people now that Christ has died. This kind of teaching refuses to acknowledge the barrier that the old system was to the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Conditions had to be met, and met perfectly, by the priesthood before the Spirit would fill the literal Temple.
Yes, and conditions have to be met and met perfectly for Adonai to impart His Spirit to us. We need to be anointed with The Blood, washed in the Living Waters, fed by unleaved Bread of Heaven, bathed in the Light of Life.
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Thankfully, through Jesus that infilling is accomplished through his perfect work on our behalf that the Levitical priesthood and Temple illustrated, but which now occurs through his ministry, and in the new Temple of our bodies. The Temple in this regard was a shadow of better things to come that are here now.
Paul does not seem to agree that we are that knowledgable. 1 Cor. 13:12 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." So, what is the harm in refering to the imagery that Adonai has provided in the written word?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/8/2009 4:58:50 AM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/8/2009 5:02:40 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2935
Joined: 11/8/2007
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ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Corne
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Close, the veil is Yeshua's flesh which was rent and through which Adonai views us. We have not discussed the Spirit of Adonai. That would be the incense, which continually burns before the veil and also fills the Temple. Therefore, in Adonai's Kingdom Adonai's Spirit has continually passed through the veil and enveloped The Holy of Holies. At the same time it has also moved throughout the temple envigerating the priests, His people, who minister to Him and those in the outer court, training them in the ways of Adonai. Of course, we can not get into what those ways are in this thread. Even examining the practices of the outer court or the duties in the temple would beg the question of how those things apply today. That line of discussion has been reserved for what might be considered "the holy place" in the doctrine folder.
That is not a standard rendition of symbolism, saying that the incense represents the Holy Spirit.
I would say it represents praying in the Holy Spirit.
I would accept that as an explanation, since it is in the Holy Place and not the Holy of Holies. Even though we do take part, as priests, it is according to His recipe, as was the incense. That would be by the direction of the Ruach HaChedosh(Holy Spirit).
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/8/2009 4:18:42 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2244
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: LCannon
Someone has suggested among the issues raised here another was to reveal the ark of the Covenant was no longer present thus the source forgiveness and true sacrifice. Jesus was(is)the True sacrifice and Victory.
Jesus is the Ark of the Covenant, and as Livedloved points out, is where man and God meet in Holy peace and reconciliation. As the priesthood of a New Covenant, we carry Jesus, the Ark of the Covenant, around in the Temple of our bodies during this wilderness journey on earth until the day we are clothed with our heavenly dwelling. Until then, as appointed stewards of the Temple of God, we are careful to keep it pure and undefiled so that the glory of God within it can appear for all to see.
Where do you get that extrapolation? Scriptures please. It does have a nice ring to it, but how do you know it is an accurate portrayal of what Adonai intended with regard to the Temple and the Ark.
Greetings
A good understanding concerning the divisions of the Ark is seen in its design
17 You shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two and a half cubits shall be its length and a cubit and a half its width. 18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub at one end, and the other cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim at the two ends of it of one piece with the mercy seat. 20 And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat. 21 You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. 22 And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel.
The place God will meet with the High Priest in verse 22... is above the mercy seat
... NOW the gulf Jesus spoke of below ...
Lu 16:26 - Show Context
And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
The gulf represents the mercy seat that divided the "Testimony that I will give you" in verse 21 ....and the presence of God which was above the mercy seat.
Therefore the lid covering the Ark of the testimony is that great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you.... cannot, ...nor.... can those from there.... pass to us.'
The two cherubim of gold at the two ends are also of one piece with the mercy seat.
This represents what was written in Genesis 3 in that it was to guard the way that Jesus called the narrow way... and the narrow way is seen in the design were the cherubim stretched out their wings above, covering the mercy seat , ....and.... they shall face one another; AND the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat.
That picture of the their wings covering the mercy seat along with the faces of the cherubim looking toward the mercy seat is the narrow path
.....Jesus reiterated that in the example of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 when speaking of the great gulf fixed…. and that the rich mans brethren… had Moses and the prophets... and that they... should here them...
That saying was taken from the design of the cherubim looking toward the mercy seat that was made of 1 piece ..
therefore the the cherubim looking toward the mercy seat were looking "towards.... Moses and the prophets.
= which was the Testimony.... that I will "give you"= v22 = the OT revealed!!!
So the testimony God said that was to be given in verse 22 above ....was to be given first to the Messiah or... and that testimony was the OT revealed, =John 8:28 Lu 24:27 Joh 5:46
SO in simple terms The rending of the veil....
Allowed those who hear Moses and the prophets, which speak of Jesus Christ....
allows them to pass through the great gulf fixed, by that hearing…..
Therefore... when one to passes through that great gulf fixed....the gulf is therefore rend.... Re 3:20
This allows those who believe in Christ Jesus to pass though the great gulf fixed... and this is the narrow gate.... and the narrow gate as we see in the design of the Ark of the covenant brings one to the place ABOVE the mercy seat. (Which represents the AIR= and into the presence of God)= 1Th 4:17.
And from that place ABOVE the mercy seat…. is where HE will speak with US, "from between"... the two cherubim =(narrow gate) which are on the ark ....of the Testimony, =(the revelation of Jesus Christ) and is where HE will speak with US about… "Everything”… which I will give …you...
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So, you are saying we are all the high priests? Isn't that Yeshua's job? With regard to the Scriptural requirement for Cohen HaGadol, this is not a hereditary designation. Yes, on earth, one must be of the line of Aaron, but one need not be a direct descendant of the last Cohen HaGadol.
We are not all High Priests nor of a hereditary designation .... but we share "in everything" that God gave to Jesus John 16:14
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 11/8/2009 4:37:44 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 12:00:59 AM
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ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Zech 14:19-21 "This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. On that day ~holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty."
Why does this have to be literal? It isn't now, yet these things are being fulfilled already. Who do you think the cooking pots and sacred bowls are? We are the vessels and sacred bowls used in the worship and service of God. That's more real and active and meaningful than if the prophecy is talking about the literal utensils of the Temple.
Why not? This is interpreting the things of the temple, just as I have. The cooking pots in Adonai's Kingdom are represented by the sacred bowls in front of the earthly alter. One day, I am not saying today, kodesh Adonai, will be so common a phrase that it will be written on the bells of horses and not just on the crown of the High Preist Ex. 39:30. Your interpretation does not fit the context nor do I find a similar interpretation in all of the Scriptures. It appears that it imposses a doctrinal bias that conceals meaning rather than revealing it.
We see the symbolism of God's people being like bowls in Zechariah 9:15...
"They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar."
So, not only is the symbolism Biblical, it's right there in the book of Zechariah itself. Any doctrinal bias my interpretation imposes on the Zech. 14 passage comes right from the book of Zechariah itself (nothing wrong with a Biblical doctrinal bias). And as for a 'similar' interpretation of the people of God being likened to vessels, or instruments used in the service of the household of God, and inscribed with some kind of signifying mark of the Lord, we have 2 Timothy 2:19-21...
"...God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work."
This passage gives us a similar Biblical analogy that, along with the Zechariah 9 passage, allows the figurative interpretation I offered of the Zech. 14 prophecy. One day the Jews will be the vessels of honor and glory that the gentiles have already become. To God be the glory.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 12:30:27 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2935
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
The gulf represents the mercy seat that divided the "Testimony that I will give you" in verse 21 ....and the presence of God which was above the mercy seat.
Therefore the lid covering the Ark of the testimony is that great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you.... cannot, ...nor.... can those from there.... pass to us.'
I expected your entering into the discussion here, given your love of symbolism and imagery. I ma just surprised that it took you so long to join in.
Now if you wish to introduce the phrase "great gulf fixed" would this not imply that Ark is hades. The only place that this term is used in the Scriptures is Mt.16:26 where Avraham says this to the rich man who is in hades. Therefore, the great gulf is between Avraham's bosom and hades. When Avraham speaks of the testimony of Moshe' and the prophet, he is speaking of those who are still alive in this world and not those in Hades. Believing Moshe' and the prophets in hades is of no use as the parable points out. So,unless you are saying the Ark is hades, the analogy does not fit.
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We are not all High Priests nor of a hereditary designation .... but we share "in everything" that God gave to Jesus John 16:14
I did not say were were all High Priests. Paul tells us, (Heb. 6:17-20) "Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
The analogy is that we are priests as Adonai tells us, (Ex 19:6) "'(Y)ou will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites." Therefore, we are a nation of priests that are symbolized by the cohens in the temple and are represented by the Yeshua as were the cohens by the Cohen HaGadol in the earthly temple. Be come boldly before the throne of grace because He who represents us(Cohen HaGadol), protects us from judgement(The Veil), and makes full atonement by His blood(The Sacrifice) is also He who dwells between the cherubim above the mercy seat and the ark which contains that which attests to His status at King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/9/2009 12:36:34 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 12:57:55 AM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 126
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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There is much symbolism in the book of Zechariah. You don't have to know exactly what parts are literal and which parts are symbolic to know it's not an entirely literal prophecy (for some parts are plainly labeled as being symbolic). And as I'm saying, it's easy to see how these kinds of things are already fulfilled (symbolically) now, in the body of Christ. Why do we have to understand them as only being literal when Christ returns and not symbolic things that he will do among the Jews that he has already done among the gentiles? You are aware of how Hebrews spiritualizes sacrifices in chapter 13, aren't you? The author shows how the literal sacrifices are now fulfilled spiritually. Read the chapter. The Jews will one day fulfill these sacrifices, and the other things spoken about there, spiritually just as the gentiles are already doing. It's quite appropriate and reaonable to understand Zech. prophecy in the same vein of interpretaion.
Yes, there is much symbolism in all of the Tanach. One may see how one can apply various passages to Yeshua, but that does not mean that they are the one and only "fulfillment" of those passages. If you can show how Adonai is doing these things among the gentiles and not the jews, I would be glad to see that interpretation, so we can see if it fits the context.
We both know there are beliveing Jews today. But we both know this hardly represents a wholesale conversion of the state of Israel itself. Zechariah's prophecy speaks of the day when that conversion will be widespread and commonplace among the people of natural Israel, just as it is has been among the gentiles since the resurrection. My interpretation fits the context of Biblical prophecy concerning the future salvation of 'all' of Israel very nicely.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I am aware of how Hebrews 13 reveals the reality that is symbolized in the furnishings and practices of the Temple. That is exactly what I have been talking about. Vs. 10 says, "We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat." this of course refers to the portion of the earthly sacrifice that the earthly priests are permitted to take from some of the offerings to be consumed by them in the earthly Temple. This is a symbol of what we are told in (Ro 8:17) "Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." We, the preists in Adonai's kingdom, partake in The Sacrifice of Yeshua that is symbolized by the earthly priests taking part in the earthly sacrifices. The first is the reality the second the symbol.
I like your interpretation, and to be more exact (and meaningful), that which we partake of is indeed Jesus...Jesus via the Holy Spirit, just as I shared in a previous post about the bowls of incense. Everything we have and experience in Jesus comes to us in the reality of the Holy Spirit. He (the Holy Spirit) is the reality of heaven we possess, now.
Paul is saying those who minister at the earthly tabernacle have no right to partake of that Holy Spirit. The context of Hebrews is about the danger of Jews persisting in the methodology of the now obsolete (outdated, useless, old, aging, etc...) Temple system. Those who do that have no right whatsoever to eat the goodness of Christ's sacrifice that we eat and drink via the Holy Spirit. No Temple procedure can solicit the New Covenant experience of the Holy Spirit. It's entirely separate from it.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 1:06:25 AM
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ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I guess when Yeshua returns we will know for sure if the earthly Temple is "obsolete" or not. However, it appears to me that there will be sacrifices when the Kingdom is literally established.
Why does it matter what Jesus will institute when he appears again?
Paul clearly cares what Yeshua will institute when he returns. (1 Cor. 15:51-54) "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory.""
Where does Paul get "the trumpet will sound". One could say that he gets it from Mt. 24:31 "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Is this another "new" concept that is first mentioned by Yeshua? No, like the trumpets that warn us of the comming of Yom Kippur, this passage ties together several images from The Tanach to apply them to His second coming. So, it is also important to Yeshua what He will do when He returns.
This is all wonderful, but let me rephrase the question so you understand what I'm saying:
Why does it matter NOW what Jesus will institute when he appears again?
I hope what I'm getting at does not get lost out of the context of the paragraph I first posted it in. You have to be careful that you're not addressing an argument that is not represented in this thread. If there ever was a strawman, it's this thinking that the church wants to resist every and any notion that the OT is in any way useful today. No. The church resists any notion that somehow the OT, as the foundation of the New Covenant, means literal old covenant worship has to be literally observed. Just pointing this out so you don't float off into the idea that we should embrace Judaistic worship beyond just the knowledge of it (which is what you seem to be driving at) just because a lot of what Paul said has it's inspiration in that system.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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For now the Bible plainly teaches that the literal Temple system is obsolete, if not forever, definately until Jesus comes back. Why do we have to change that just because the possibility exists that there will be another (modified) Temple during the Mill? It's obsolete NOW. My Bible tells me so. Is it honest to say that's not true when the Bible plainly says it is true?
That is a debatable point. As I pointed out that term is translated "obsolete" in only one of the three times it is used in the Apistolic writings.
In the others it is translated as wears out or waxes old. This does not necessarily mean it become immediately useless, but as it is used in reference to this world in Heb. 1:11 it will eventually pass away. As I also noted before there are differing opinions even among those in my community regarding what is means that the "temple system" will pass away, right away, over time, a prophetic reference to 70AD or something else. That is not clear. What is clear is that the reality of Adonai's Kingdom, which the temple and preisthood represent, will not become worn out. Therefore, the symbolism of those things is a good reminder of the realities of Adonai's Kingdom.
The context makes it clear that 'obsolete' is an appropriate description for that which no longer has any application in regard to the atonement as it once did.
I still have at least two meters for setting the dwell of the points of an automobile engine that has a set of points in the distributor. If you've been around long enough you'll know ignition points disappeared around 1975. My once very useful meters for setting those points for proper ignition timing are now entirely obsolete because ignition spark is now controlled by a new way . And that is exactly what happened with the Mosaic law of the Temple. The way that atonement used to be secured, through the blood of animals and the Temple articles used to present that blood, is now useless because it doesn't apply to the new way we now have to the atonement seat of God.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 1:07:48 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2935
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
We see the symbolism of God's people being like bowls in Zechariah 9:15...
"They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar."
So, not only is the symbolism Biblical, it's right there in the book of Zechariah itself. Any doctrinal bias my interpretation imposes on the Zech. 14 passage comes right from the book of Zechariah itself (nothing wrong with a Biblical doctrinal bias).
Emphasis Mine
The problem with expanding the imagery in the verse you quoted, is that the prase in is not a metaphor but a simile. A simile is a figure of speech comparing two unlike things, often introduced with the word "like" or "as" for the purpose of pointing out something that they have in common. In the case of the two passages in Zechariah, it is the fullness of the bowl that is significant and not that Adonai's people are symbolized by the bowls of the temple. A metaphor is a figure of speech concisely expressed by comparing two things, saying that one is the other. We see this in Ex 19:6, "'(Y)ou will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites." Adonai here says we will be priests. Therefore, the levitical priesthood is symbolic of what Adonai desires for us.
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And as for a 'similar' interpretation of the people of God being likened to vessels, or instruments used in the service of the household of God, and inscribed with some kind of signifying mark of the Lord, we have 2 Timothy 2:19-21...
"...God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work."
This passage gives us a similar Biblical analogy that, along with the Zechariah 9 passage, allows the figurative interpretation I offered of the Zech. 14 prophecy. One day the Jews will be the vessels of honor and glory that the gentiles have already become. To God be the glory.
Again we see a metaphor and simile here. It does not say we are articles of gold and silver or wood and clay. He is saying if we wish to be instruments of nobel purposes(metaphor), we should be like vessels of gold and silver in that we should not allow ourselves to be used for ignoble purposes(simile). Yes, we are told, (Ro 6:13) "Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness." However, this comparison of parts of our bodies to "instruments" does not mean that we are instruments in the same sense that we are priests.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 1:21:07 AM
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ChainSaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Close, the veil is Yeshua's flesh which was rent and through which Adonai views us. We have not discussed the Spirit of Adonai. That would be the incense, which continually burns before the veil and also fills the Temple. Therefore, in Adonai's Kingdom Adonai's Spirit has continually passed through the veil and enveloped The Holy of Holies. At the same time it has also moved throughout the temple envigerating the priests, His people, who minister to Him and those in the outer court, training them in the ways of Adonai.
People who subscribe to this doctrine never explain why Christ had to die so that the Holy Spirit could be sent from heaven, and what changed because of that.
I am not sure which passage you are refering to, but Yeshua and Adonai's Spirit are both Adonai, there is no need for Adonai's Spirit to be there when Yeshua is. Yeshua did not die to send Adonai's Spirit. Yeshua died to make us acceptable to Adonai. He is the veil through which Adonai sees us. When He looks at us He sees the rent veil and imparts His Spirit to us on that basis. Before the veil was rent, He still saw us through the veil that would be rent and imparted His Spirit on that basis. In either case He imparted His Spirit.
John 16:
"5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."
This is what the New Covenant is all about. Without this there is no New Covenant. People with your doctrinal persuasion about the Holy Spirit seem to avoid explaining how the ministry of the Holy Spirit is no different now than it was in the old covenant. This is completely contrary to plain NT scripture.
I would like to adjust your understanding of this veil a little bit. I think it's a mistake to understand the veil being like a bride's veil. If I understand correctly, the curtain between the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place was solid and blocked sight of the H of H completely. The NIV calls it a 'shielding curtain' (Exd. 40:21). (I was told the curtain was actually a few inches thick!)
The torn curtain represents a removal of the shield that once blocked the way to the place of atonement. Christ is that torn curtain, not a transparent veil to see through, but an opening in the curtain that we can now enter through and not die. This is consistent with the analogy of Christ as 'the door'. And that certainly doesn't mean a screen door that we see through to the other side, but an actual opening through which we can enter.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/9/2009 1:27:36 AM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 1:34:51 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2935
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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There is much symbolism in the book of Zechariah. You don't have to know exactly what parts are literal and which parts are symbolic to know it's not an entirely literal prophecy (for some parts are plainly labeled as being symbolic). And as I'm saying, it's easy to see how these kinds of things are already fulfilled (symbolically) now, in the body of Christ. Why do we have to understand them as only being literal when Christ returns and not symbolic things that he will do among the Jews that he has already done among the gentiles? You are aware of how Hebrews spiritualizes sacrifices in chapter 13, aren't you? The author shows how the literal sacrifices are now fulfilled spiritually. Read the chapter. The Jews will one day fulfill these sacrifices, and the other things spoken about there, spiritually just as the gentiles are already doing. It's quite appropriate and reaonable to understand Zech. prophecy in the same vein of interpretaion.
Yes, there is much symbolism in all of the Tanach. One may see how one can apply various passages to Yeshua, but that does not mean that they are the one and only "fulfillment" of those passages. If you can show how Adonai is doing these things among the gentiles and not the jews, I would be glad to see that interpretation, so we can see if it fits the context.
We both know there are beliveing Jews today. But we both know this hardly represents a wholesale conversion of the state of Israel itself. Zechariah's prophecy speaks of the day when that conversion will be widespread and commonplace among the people of natural Israel, just as it is has been among the gentiles since the resurrection. My interpretation fits the context of Biblical prophecy concerning the future salvation of 'all' of Israel very nicely.
That is not the context in which you made the statement. Your contentions was, "Why do we have to understand them as only being literal when Christ returns and not symbolic things that he will do among the Jews that he has already done among the gentiles?" What has He done among the gentiles that He not done among the Jews? Are "all" gentiles saved? You yourself admitted that there are believing jews.
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I like your interpretation, and to be more exact (and meaningful), that which we partake of is indeed Jesus...Jesus via the Holy Spirit, just as I shared in a previous post about the bowls of incense. Everything we have and experience in Jesus comes to us in the reality of the Holy Spirit. He (the Holy Spirit) is the reality of heaven we possess, now.
Yes, because Yeshua and Adonai's Spirit are both Adonai.
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Paul is saying those who minister at the earthly tabernacle have no right to partake of that Holy Spirit. The context of Hebrews is about the danger of Jews persisting in the methodology of the now obsolete (outdated, useless, old, aging, etc...) Temple system. Those who do that have no right whatsoever to eat the goodness of Christ's sacrifice that we eat and drink via the Holy Spirit. No Temple procedure can solicit the New Covenant experience of the Holy Spirit. It's entirely separate from it.
He is not saying that those who partake of the earthly sacrifice in the observance of their duties are acursed. That is not the context in which he is speaking. He is saying that though following to prescribed duties of an earthly priest permits one to take part in the earthly sacrifice, it does not permit one to take part in the heavenly Sacrifice. Thus one can partake of both, but one is symbolic and can only be eaten by those who symbolize the priests in Adonai's Kingdom. The other is the reality of Adonai's Kingdom and can only be eaten by those are priests on His Kingdom. They are different. But the one is symbolic of the other, so they are not entirely seperate. Yes, no earthly temple procedure can truly compare to Adonai's Kingdom, but it can symbolize it.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 2:03:27 AM
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ChainSaw
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The point of all this is, BlueT, the veil blocked the way to the place of atonement. The law governing the placement of the veil is what kept the veil in place. By law we were separated from the place of atonement. But now, in Christ, the veil imposed by the law is taken away. Christ has become for us a torn veil through which we can boldly enter to receive grace without concern of performance, or qualification, or timing, or fear of death. The stipulations of the law regarding the veil which once kept us separated from that grace has now been nailed to the cross. We now have free unhindered access to God's grace through Christ the torn veil, and are no longer hindered by the shielding curtain of the law. Blessed be the name of the Lord. The curtain is symbolic of the law--a law that separates us from God, not brings us nearer to him.
Col. 2:
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
We're not talking about whether or not we have to, or should, observe the literal old covenant worship procedures. That would be the next step from this discussion in another thread. The context of our discussion is about the law and it's stipulations that hung a curtain between me and God, concealing the appointed place and time of atonement (symbolically Christ). The author of Hebrews is saying that the law (symbolized in the curtain) has now been removed and replaced with the new, fully revealed, open way of Christ, beautifully symbolized in the rending of the curtain. A new way of approaching God is here (Christ) that makes the old way (the law) obsolete.
Remember, this is not an argument for or against keeping any worship requirement of the law today (outside of the Temple itself, of course).
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/9/2009 2:19:18 AM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 2:18:45 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2935
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
Why does it matter NOW what Jesus will institute when he appears again?
It adds credibility to the argument that the temple and it's practices have always been symbolic and have never been a proximate means of salvation.
quote:
I hope what I'm getting at does not get lost out of the context of the paragraph I first posted it in. You have to be careful that you're not addressing an argument that is not represented in this thread. If there ever was a strawman, it's this thinking that the church wants to resist every and any notion that the OT is in any way useful today. No. The church resists any notion that somehow the OT, as the foundation of the New Covenant, means literal old covenant worship has to be literally observed. Just pointing this out so you don't float off into the idea that we should embrace Judaistic worship beyond just the knowledge of it (which is what you seem to be driving at) just because a lot of what Paul said has it's inspiration in that system.
I will respond top this merely because you raised the issue. Presuming an earthly temple existed at this time, whether or not one took part in the practices of that temple would not be a salvation issue. It might be an indicator of one's dedication to Adonai. However, which practices one would take part in and to what degree are beyond the scopr of this thread. We are talking about the symbolic value of the Temple and it's practices. The tread specifically addresses the symbolism of the veil and whether that symbolism translates into a doing away with all things related to the temple. We have gone beyond that and are now discussing the usefulness of the symbolism of the temple, it's furnishings and practices. If one wishes to discuss what of those furnishings and practices should be a physical part of the believer's life today, I am afraid that will have to be discussed in another thread. Please do not bring this up again. I grow tired of profitable discussion being ambushed by enquiries designed to find fault with those who choose to practice a particular behavior that is presented in the Scriptures and they find valuable in the life of the believer.
quote:
The context makes it clear that 'obsolete' is an appropriate description for that which no longer has any application in regard to the atonement as it once did.
That is a matter of opinion and unless you are refering to the symbolic value, discussion of the term you so dogmatically insist must be interpreted as "obsolete" and it's effects on whether or not one should observe these practices or ones similar to them is beyond the scope of this thread.
quote:
I still have at least two meters for setting the dwell of the points of an automobile engine that has a set of points in the distributor. If you've been around long enough you'll know ignition points disappeared around 1975. My once very useful meters for setting those points for proper ignition timing are now entirely obsolete because ignition spark is now controlled by a new way . And that is exactly what happened with the Mosaic law of the Temple. The way that atonement used to be secured, through the blood of animals and the Temple articles used to present that blood, is now useless because it doesn't apply to the new way we now have to the atonement seat of God.
If the distibutor were analogious to how we live and breath and have our being, then it's value would remain as a teaching tool. Also, if one expected sudden economic collapes, which some do, knowing how to initiate a spark by mechanical means in an automobile one might find on the side of the road, would be quite valuable especially if that engine were located near an ample source of fuel, such as an abandoned gas station. Admittedly, at this point in time, when vehicles are becoming more and more computerized, such knowledge appears to be "obsolete". However, if central power were to go down many "obsolete" things would become very valuable.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 5:14:24 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I grow tired of profitable discussion being ambushed by enquiries designed to find fault with those who choose to practice a particular behavior that is presented in the Scriptures and they find valuable in the life of the believer.
Actually at least in these threads the debate if you will, is not about the acceptability of practicing these things if one desires, but about the doctrine that says this is THE way God wants us all to practice and those that don't, bless their hearts, will make it to heaven by grace anyway.
I have always ADORED Jewish culture and thought it was the coolest beans that there were believers that practiced/worshiped with a Jewish flavor. It was only in recent years that I discovered these believers had doctrine that said it was the chosen way and the other ways were misguided. (to simplify) Very disappointing to me. The division is more than style, it's significant doctrine. Yes, we still are one in Christ, but the difference are more than they need to be.
As I said before, when I inquired hard about your views on the veil it was because I wanted to know your views about the veil. Very hard to get out of you. I wish other Messianic were trying to participate too. You say now and then that your views don't always match what your community thinks. Well I really want to understand the POV of the messianic community. And yes I will at times debate doctrine. Doctrine is worthy of such discussion.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 10:36:08 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2935
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
John 16:
"5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."
This is what the New Covenant is all about. Without this there is no New Covenant. People with your doctrinal persuasion about the Holy Spirit seem to avoid explaining how the ministry of the Holy Spirit is no different now than it was in the old covenant. This is completely contrary to plain NT scripture.
I realize that some choose to see Adonai's Spirit as an independant entity. I do not see this exemplified in the temple. In fact, it appears you are arguing that there is no item in the temple that represents the Spirit of Adonai. What I see Yeshua telling His disciples is that since He, Adonai Yeshua is among them, the Ruach Adonai(Spirit of Adonai) can not come, for they are both Adonai. The Spirit of Adonai was already among them in the form of Yeshua. However, for them to move on as emissaries He, Adonai in the flesh must leave them and they must move on with Adonai in hem rather than seeing Adonai as an entitiy outside of them.
quote:
I would like to adjust your understanding of this veil a little bit. I think it's a mistake to understand the veil being like a bride's veil. If I understand correctly, the curtain between the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place was solid and blocked sight of the H of H completely. The NIV calls it a 'shielding curtain' (Exd. 40:21). (I was told the curtain was actually a few inches thick!)
Yes, we could not see through the veil, but that does not men that Adonai could not. The cases of Samuel and Zechariah show that Adonai's Spirit filled the temple, not just the Holy of Holies. We could not pass through the veil to Adonai without the blood, but Adonai could pass trough thew veil to us. The rending of the veil permits us to appraoch Adonai throught the veil, since it is clear that the Veil is Adonai.
quote:
The torn curtain represents a removal of the shield that once blocked the way to the place of atonement. Christ is that torn curtain, not a transparent veil to see through, but an opening in the curtain that we can now enter through and not die. This is consistent with the analogy of Christ as 'the door'. And that certainly doesn't mean a screen door that we see through to the other side, but an actual opening through which we can enter.
So you are saying that the immagery of the rent veil tells us that Yeshua has been removed as an intermediary between us and Adonai Elohiem? This can lead to the idea that Yeshua is not longer relevant if one looks at Yeshua as a seperate entitiy. However, the truth is that even though Yeshua appears as a sepreate entity, He is one with Adonai Elohiem and the Ruach HaChedosh. Therefore, even though we approach the thrown of grace "unveiled", Adonai Himself is the Veil that covers our sins and precludeds our judgement on that basis.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 10:43:34 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2935
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I grow tired of profitable discussion being ambushed by enquiries designed to find fault with those who choose to practice a particular behavior that is presented in the Scriptures and they find valuable in the life of the believer.
Actually at least in these threads the debate if you will, is not about the acceptability of practicing these things if one desires, but about the doctrine that says this is THE way God wants us all to practice and those that don't, bless their hearts, will make it to heaven by grace anyway.
Absolutely not. That in no way is the purpose of this thread. If someone chooses to infer that can not be helped, because I can not control the inferences of others. Again, please refrain from refering to this controversy on this thread. The thread is about the symbolism of the temple with regard to Adonai's Kingdom principles and not a specific application of thse principles to any particular practice. I strongly object to this discussion being threatened by inferences that it is an attempt to dictate behaviors.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 11:30:23 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1811
Status: offline
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Thanks, Bluethread, for this thread. The things we have been discussing have been tumbling around inside me this weekend. And they have especially caused me to think specifically of the teachings in the book of Hebrews. I will share some of the thoughts I have had.
We began with this scripture from Hebrews 9:13-14.
For if the blood of goat and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
I would suggest that this verse (which you quoted in your OP) is the answer to the thread's discussion which you stated as: quote:
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the role of The Temple in Adonai's eternal plan and the siginificance of the rent veil.
The sacrificial sytem of the temple was brought to an abrupt halt when the Lamb of God was sacrificed. The Lamb of God was sacrificed and His offering was able to cleanse much more. It reminds me of Paul's discussion in Romans 5 comparing Adam's sin with the free gift of grace. To stay focused on Adam and what the Law did is to miss the much more of the grace of God. And while sin reigned in death, grace reigns through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ.
And what is eternal life? And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent. John 17:3 This is the very purpose of God for us, to know Him.
Jesus is the radiance of His (God's) glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. Hebrews 1:3 God chose to reveal Himself to us in these last days through His Son, Jesus.
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? Hebrews 2:1-3
But we do see Him . . . Hebrews 2:9 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. Hebrews 3:1
Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. Hebrews 4:1 There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience. Hebrews 4:9-11
And (Jesus) having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. Concerning him, we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. . . Hebrews 5:9-11 Therefore, let us press on to maturity Hebrews 6:1
For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever. Hebrews 7:28 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:11-12
For the Law since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. Hebrews 10:1 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4
And that takes us to the wonderful reality of the new and living way of access to the holy place, Jesus. The writer of Hebrews stresses the confidence we now have. . . let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith(22), let us hold fast the confession of our hope (23).
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (26). I would contend that sinning willfully is the sin of unbelief which kept the Israelites from entering His rest.
We are to believe fully and completely in the work Christ has accomplished for us through His sacrificial death at Calvary and the life He now lives for us. Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward(35).
The tenth chapter of Hebrews which describes the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice and the new and living way of entrance to God as well as the warning of not believing His having done ALL for us, the work being completed, is followed by chapter eleven which gives example after example of the faithful who believed.
We are to fix our eyes on Jesus (12:2) and live lives of continual gratitude (a sacrifice of praise to God)(13:15) for ALL that Jesus IS for us.
And while I enjoy discussing the things of God such as this thread is doing, to emphasize 'our' doing (anything including the emphasis on temple worship) is to return to bondage. It was for freedom that Christ set us free (Gal 5:1)!
Yes, the picture of the ark, the mercy set, the cherubim, and the place of meeting between God and man is wonderful. And the various practices within the temple and the worship that took place are wonderful in that God is teaching and leading us to Himself. And that's why I've enjoyed this discussion.
But to stop with the 'objects' is to stop short. No, we must be led on to the person of Jesus Who makes all the objects pale in comparison. He is the altogether lovely One and the One we worship and adore.
The temple worship and the rending of the veil lead us to Jesus and His sufficiency. . . for me and for all mankind who receive Him.
That is what the writer of Hebrews wanted us to know. The verse you began with showed us the insufficiency of the blood of bulls and goats. It led us to the sufficiency of Jesus' blood. He is sufficient. That is the journey I have been on this weekend as I've pondered this thread.
So great a salvation is found in Jesus. Hallelujah!\o/\o/\o/
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 11/9/2009 11:48:03 AM >
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/9/2009 12:41:09 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I grow tired of profitable discussion being ambushed by enquiries designed to find fault with those who choose to practice a particular behavior that is presented in the Scriptures and they find valuable in the life of the believer.
Actually at least in these threads the debate if you will, is not about the acceptability of practicing these things if one desires, but about the doctrine that says this is THE way God wants us all to practice and those that don't, bless their hearts, will make it to heaven by grace anyway.
Absolutely not. That in no way is the purpose of this thread. If someone chooses to infer that can not be helped, because I can not control the inferences of others. Again, please refrain from refering to this controversy on this thread. The thread is about the symbolism of the temple with regard to Adonai's Kingdom principles and not a specific application of these principles to any particular practice. I strongly object to this discussion being threatened by inferences that it is an attempt to dictate behaviors.
You have locked in to the idea that I am trying to stir something up.
You have said many times about practices that that it is God's way, and that He desires those practices but they are not conditional for salvation. That is all I'm referring to. I was just trying to clarify my *not-hoping-to-jump-out-of the-bushes* motives. You didn't get it. OY.
As for this discussion, are we supposed to participate only if we completely agree?
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