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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 6:27:57 PM
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Corne
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So are you saying the approach, the protocol to accessing the throne of God is the same except when we reach the veil, -poof- it's not there?
It seems those that have access to the holiest place has changed. How many/which humans were actually allowed to approach the holiest place before?
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 6:55:19 PM
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Liveloved
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Continue, Bluethread. I'm still wondering where you're going with this. . . and I'm listening.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 7:12:09 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...All I am pointing out is that the lesson of the rent veil is that we have access to Adonai through Yeshua HaMeshiach(Adonai's Salvation the Anointed One). As far as I can tell, nothing else is stated or implied in the Scriptures with regard to the rending of the veil.
Maybe I'm not following the thread close enough, but what else has someone stated or implied from the scriptures regarding the rending of the veil? As far as I know, what you shared is what we've all been saying, too. Hebrews 9:7-8 seems to say it all...
"...only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing."
The author says while the system of 'entering only once a year', and 'never without blood' was still in effect the way into the Most Holy Place remained undisclosed. He's saying that system had to be removed in order for the "new and living way" (Heb. 10:20) into the place of atonement could be revealed for us--that is, Jesus. Symbolically, the rending of the curtain demonstrates the end of the old way and the beginning of the new way, the details of which is what the book of Hebrews is all about.
In verse 8 the word "still" can be translated "yet". Paul can't be saying that the Temple must be destroyed for the "new" and better way to be revealed. The Temple was still standing when he wrote that. Now, there have been time when there was a Temple and when there was no Temple. Paul might have also been forseening the fact that the existing Temple would be soon be destroyed, due to the rampent idolatry and corruption that had become part of the system as run by those in authority at the time. Therefore, I believe Paul is telling us that as long as one looks at the Temple as a means of salvation, as did many of the old guard, and not as a representation of the true means of salvation, one can not see that "new" and better means of salvation, which was indeed the only way of salvation, past, present and future.
Without the knowledge we now have, the veil appears to be a road block and not a representation of the means of salvation. One must, therefore, have great respect for those who chose to resisted the temptation to turn the Temple into a workhouse, but rather chose to trust Adonai would provide clarification on the means of salvation. It is too bad that those in power could not resist that temptation.
I believe, symbolically, the rending of the curtain demonstrates the end of the old way of understanding, which was incorrect, and the renewing of the way Adonai intended it from the beginning, the details of which is what the book of Hebrews is all about. The veil blinded those who believed in salvation by heredity and works because they chose not to look at the big picture. The veil was part of the Temple, but if one looks at the Tanach one sees it as an anomoly. How can Adonai desire to commune with us and yet set up a road block. Little did they know that "road block" was indeed the cornerstone of the story revealed in the Temple structure. Admittedly, we have more pieces now, but even today many refuse to look at the big picture.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/5/2009 7:51:33 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 7:55:15 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2939
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
So are you saying the approach, the protocol to accessing the throne of God is the same except when we reach the veil, -poof- it's not there?
It seems those that have access to the holiest place has changed. How many/which humans were actually allowed to approach the holiest place before?
Not it does not disappear. It is still there. They may have taken it down in the earthly Temple, but our High Priest still retains His humanity. The one one who could enter the Holy of Holies was the high priest and only with the blood, but that is because he was only human. The High Priest is both man and Adonai, therefore, when we come before Him we are still in front of the veil(his body) and He sees us through that veil. We being the priests of the Most High of course.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 7:58:52 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Continue, Bluethread. I'm still wondering where you're going with this. . . and I'm listening.
Where I am going is that the earthly Temple, if there were one, would still stand as a reminder of how things are in Adonai's Kingdom. Since some of that Kingdom is not visable to the naked eye, such a reminder would be invaluable, if it did not lead to idolatry. The rending of the veil, just makes it a better image.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 8:09:40 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
So are you saying the approach, the protocol to accessing the throne of God is the same except when we reach the veil, -poof- it's not there?
It seems those that have access to the holiest place has changed. How many/which humans were actually allowed to approach the holiest place before?
Not it does not disappear. It is still there. They may have taken it down in the earthly Temple, but our High Priest still retains His humanity. The one one who could enter the Holy of Holies was the high priest and only with the blood, but that is because he was only human. The High Priest is both man and Adonai, therefore, when we come before Him we are still in front of the veil(his body) and He sees us through that veil. We being the priests of the Most High of course.
That is a monumental change. You are so focused on all of the intricacies of the symbolism/types... that you miss the huge change for humanity. It is not an elite representative with access, and only periodic access to the holiest place, it is now us, the believing little peon. Every believing little peon. We come BOLDLY and have 24/7-365 access.
this is HUGE.
I have loved the OT since I was a very young child, and always appreciated the symbolism we are talking about but the blessed reality is, we are given access to the throne of God even when we have no clue about OT types/shadows etc. Meeting our savior is simple. It's a shame if a believer never acquires the exposure and understanding of the history of God's relationship to man, but it is not actually required to have a clue in order to obtain a right relationship with God.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 8:22:38 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 126
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...All I am pointing out is that the lesson of the rent veil is that we have access to Adonai through Yeshua HaMeshiach(Adonai's Salvation the Anointed One). As far as I can tell, nothing else is stated or implied in the Scriptures with regard to the rending of the veil.
Maybe I'm not following the thread close enough, but what else has someone stated or implied from the scriptures regarding the rending of the veil? As far as I know, what you shared is what we've all been saying, too. Hebrews 9:7-8 seems to say it all...
"...only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing."
The author says while the system of 'entering only once a year', and 'never without blood' was still in effect the way into the Most Holy Place remained undisclosed. He's saying that system had to be removed in order for the "new and living way" (Heb. 10:20) into the place of atonement could be revealed for us--that is, Jesus. Symbolically, the rending of the curtain demonstrates the end of the old way and the beginning of the new way, the details of which is what the book of Hebrews is all about.
In verse 8 the word "still" can be translated "yet". Paul can't be saying that the Temple must be destroyed for the "new" and better way to be revealed. The Temple was still standing when he wrote that.
These are my own thoughts on the matter exactly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I believe Paul is telling us that as long as one looks at the Temple as a means of salvation, as did many of the old guard, and not as a representation of the true means of salvation, one can not see that "new" and better means of salvation, which was indeed the only way of salvation, past, present and future.
Amen. I agree completely.
(the earth just shuddered on it's axis)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 8:36:15 PM
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ChainSaw
Posts: 126
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Where I am going is that the earthly Temple, if there were one, would still stand as a reminder of how things are in Adonai's Kingdom.
No. 'Were' done in the heavenly tabernacle...once, and for all.
(I'm assuming you meant to include the word 'done' in your post.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Since some of that Kingdom is not visable to the naked eye, such a reminder would be invaluable, if it did not lead to idolatry. The rending of the veil, just makes it a better image.
For it to be accurate, it would have to have a torn curtain, with the Holy of Holies exposed and continually visible (completely contrary to the requirements of the law). And it would not be used, ever...all the laws of how to minister in the Holy of Holies have no occassion for use anymore. What Christ did made the specifics of ministering in the HOH's unneeded now. There is no more need for atonement, once a person accepts Christ's sacrifice by faith.
With the curtain hanging torn wide open, and Christ's work making future atonement unnecessary, the laws governing the behavior of the priest ministering there have no more need to be fulfilled. All that's left of them is for them to be a picture and illustration of how Christ did all that with his own blood in the reality of heaven itself, not in the copy on earth. That's the point of Hebrews. We don't need a Temple anymore to perform the requirements for atonement set forth in the law. There's nothing to atone for anymore for those who believe. And for those who don't believe, they go through the same way we did...through the veil of Jesus, not the literal curtain of the earthly Temple. The Temple simply has no function in atonement anymore whatsoever.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/5/2009 8:42:26 PM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 9:34:52 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2939
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
That is a monumental change. You are so focused on all of the intricacies of the symbolism/types... that you miss the huge change for humanity. It is not an elite representative with access, and only periodic access to the holiest place, it is now us, the believing little peon. Every believing little peon. We come BOLDLY and have 24/7-365 access.
this is HUGE.
I have loved the OT since I was a very young child, and always appreciated the symbolism we are talking about but the blessed reality is, we are given access to the throne of God even when we have no clue about OT types/shadows etc. Meeting our savior is simple. It's a shame if a believer never acquires the exposure and understanding of the history of God's relationship to man, but it is not actually required to have a clue in order to obtain a right relationship with God.
I did not say the difference between earthly Temple before the rending of the veil and after was not huge. I was saying one can not conclude that the Temple has no value with a rent veil or any other such conclusions. In light of the knowledge of the details of The Sacrifice, the Temple after the rending of the veil is a much better representation. It helps us to see, that the veil is not a barrier but a filter. There are physical requirements that prohibited some priests from approaching the veil, but if we compare them to the requirements of those in Adonai's kingdom, we can see the connection.
Lev 21:21-23 "No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the Lord by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.'"
MT. 5:23-24 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."
Paul tells us in Hebrews 4:14-16 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."
If a preist is properly prepared, that one could have approached the veil without entering and bring supplication. We see this in the cases of Samuel and Zechariah.
(1Sa 3:3-4) "The lamp of God had not yet gone out, and Samuel was lying down in the temple of the Lord, where the ark of God was. Then the Lord called Samuel. Samuel answered, "Here I am.""
Luke 1:10-13 "And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside. Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John.""
Since the altar of incense is right in front of the veil, could this "Angel"(messenger) been indeed The Veil, Yeshua Adonai soon to be incarnate?
In saying boldly, Paul is not saying without an awareness of our surroundings, but without fear of rejection. We still must go through a High Priest. That High Priest just happens to also be The Veil(His humanity) and Adonai(His diety). All analogies have there limitations. The fact that the earthly temple must use a human, a piece of cloth and a piece of furniture to give us a clear image of Adonai Yeshua is due to the limitations of this world.
Now, your statement that any peone can come before Adonai is not a proper representation. Peone is spanish for hired hand, much like the woodcutter or watergatherer mentioned in the Scriptures. As the Scriptures tell us only those who are annointed with the blood can enter the holy place. The woodcutter or watergatherer is one who agrees to live by Adonai's ways, but does not accept Adonai as their god, a godfearing unbeliever if you will. This person is represented in the earthly temple by the person in the outer court who seeks Adonai's favor and needs the assistance of a priest(believer) to assist him in doing so.
So, if we look to the earthly temple we can come to a better understand how things are in Adonai's Kingdom. Thus rather than diminishing the importance of the earthly temple, the rending of the veil brings it's value into proper prospective.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 9:55:26 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2939
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Where I am going is that the earthly Temple, if there were one, would still stand as a reminder of how things are in Adonai's Kingdom.
No. 'Were' done in the heavenly tabernacle...once, and for all.
(I'm assuming you meant to include the word 'done' in your post.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Since some of that Kingdom is not visable to the naked eye, such a reminder would be invaluable, if it did not lead to idolatry. The rending of the veil, just makes it a better image.
For it to be accurate, it would have to have a torn curtain, with the Holy of Holies exposed and continually visible (completely contrary to the requirements of the law). And it would not be used, ever...all the laws of how to minister in the Holy of Holies have no occassion for use anymore. What Christ did made the specifics of ministering in the HOH's unneeded now. There is no more need for atonement, once a person accepts Christ's sacrifice by faith.
With the curtain hanging torn wide open, and Christ's work making future atonement unnecessary, the laws governing the behavior of the priest ministering there have no more need to be fulfilled. All that's left of them is for them to be a picture and illustration of how Christ did all that with his own blood in the reality of heaven itself, not in the copy on earth. That's the point of Hebrews. We don't need a Temple anymore to perform the requirements for atonement set forth in the law. There's nothing to atone for anymore for those who believe. And for those who don't believe, they go through the same way we did...through the veil of Jesus, not the literal curtain of the earthly Temple. The Temple simply has no function in atonement anymore whatsoever.
Emphasis mine
And we were getting on so well. 
The emboldened part is all there ever was. The Temple and the Sacrifices never brought true atonement. There only need was as an object lesson to Adonai's people of how things are in His Kingdom. This is a theme that is repeated by both the prophets and Paul. The Temple has always been an object lesson and a representation of the true atonement. If we are going to second guess what a "proper" temple would look like, I might add that this rent veil would be draped over the Mercy Seat in the place of Adonai. However, the closer we get to a "perfect" representation the closer we get to tempting idolatry. I would agree that there might no longer need be the sprinkling of the blood on Yom Kippur, but the sacrifice and azazel(the scape goat) would still make for a good object lesson.
Regarding the earth shuddering on it's axis, did this not occur when the veil was rent?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/5/2009 10:04:10 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/5/2009 11:27:25 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I did not say the difference between earthly Temple before the rending of the veil and after was not huge. I was saying one can not conclude that the Temple has no value with a rent veil or any other such conclusions. In light of the knowledge of the details of The Sacrifice, the Temple after the rending of the veil is a much better representation. It helps us to see, that the veil is not a barrier but a filter. There are physical requirements that prohibited some priests from approaching the veil, but if we compare them to the requirements of those in Adonai's kingdom, we can see the connection.
Now, your statement that any peone can come before Adonai is not a proper representation. Peone is spanish for hired hand, much like the woodcutter or watergatherer mentioned in the Scriptures. As the Scriptures tell us only those who are annointed with the blood can enter the holy place. The woodcutter or watergatherer is one who agrees to live by Adonai's ways, but does not accept Adonai as their god, a godfearing unbeliever if you will. This person is represented in the earthly temple by the person in the outer court who seeks Adonai's favor and needs the assistance of a priest(believer) to assist him in doing so.
So, if we look to the earthly temple we can come to a better understand how things are in Adonai's Kingdom. Thus rather than diminishing the importance of the earthly temple, the rending of the veil brings it's value into proper prospective.
I actually did not say the temple had a huge change. It is the covenant that changed, the way in which we conduct our relationship with God. And I do not agree that peon is improperly applied. third definition from Webster's (which happens to be our most often modern application of the word..."3. plural peons a : a person held in compulsory servitude to a master for the working out of an indebtednes".
Old covenant didn't have any provision for the peons approaching the throne of God. It was for the chosen elite to do on their behalf. New covenant, peons are now in, and notice above I said believing peons. So those WOULD have the blood covering.
The woodcutter in your explanation would be an alien. Not one of God's people. There is not an equivalent to this anymore. You either have access to the throne or you don't. No human can plead your case, or make an offering for you. A human can share the gospel, but there is no middleman relationship.
The whole approaching God protocol was abruptly and drastically changed.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 1:25:08 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2939
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
I actually did not say the temple had a huge change. It is the covenant that changed, the way in which we conduct our relationship with God.
This is off topic and provocative as I aluded to in a prior post. Therefore, take it to the proper thread.
quote:
And I do not agree that peon is improperly applied. third definition from Webster's (which happens to be our most often modern application of the word..."3. plural peons a : a person held in compulsory servitude to a master for the working out of an indebtednes".
Emphasis Mine
First this is the third definition, which implies it is not the most proper usage and, if that was a modern edition of Webster's, it is also not the most common usage since Webster's has changed its criterian to include common usage as a major factor. That said, this definition clearly implies involuntary servitude, therefore my assessment does apply. This is one who chooses to abide by the rules without actually accepting the rightness of the situation.
quote:
Old covenant didn't have any provision for the peons approaching the throne of God. It was for the chosen elite to do on their behalf. New covenant, peons are now in, and notice above I said believing peons. So those WOULD have the blood covering. The woodcutter in your explanation would be an alien. Not one of God's people. There is not an equivalent to this anymore. You either have access to the throne or you don't. No human can plead your case, or make an offering for you. A human can share the gospel, but there is no middleman relationship.
There is no actual provision in the Tanach for approaching the actual throne of Adonai. The Scriptures recognize that is beyond the scope of man's ability to regulate. As I stated when we went over the biblical setting, the Temple is not reality with regard to Adonai's Kingdom, but a microcosm of the reality of Adonai's Kingdom. The priests represent all of Adonai's people in Adonai's Kingdom and as I pointed out the preists were permitted access to the Holy of Holies through the veil. If they are believing, they are not peons, but priests in Adonai's Kingdom. The peons in Adonai's Kingdom are those who serve out of obligation but not faith as the definition you presented clearly implies. We know these people exist, because as the dispensationalist will tell you not all in the millenium, Adonai's Kingdom on earth, abide by Adonai's directives in a faith relationship.
quote:
The whole approaching God protocol was abruptly and drastically changed.
You have a right to hold this doctrine, if you wish, I just do not see it supported by the principle of the rent veil.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/6/2009 1:36:21 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 2:22:59 AM
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Corne
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Your quibbling about the word peon is silly. In casual modern language it simply means someone with less clout than the elite. I explained what I meant by it in this conversation and for you to make a mountain out of the mole hill is unneeded. It's not really respectful.
Yes it's clear that we don't see eye to eye on all doctrinal issues.
You can't say off topic and do this veil thing any justice. And in fact you seem to be waiting for me to pounce any minute with "see! that proves blah blah blah about the law...."
But I am sticking to the what changed in our relationship/approach to God, you're assuming the rest.
Under the old covenant, I would not be allowed in the holiest place. Under the New, I am allowed. When I read the old testament, I relate to being God's people as I now am, but the reality was, under the old, I was just an unclean gentile. That's legally (historically) speaking, but I know that God knew His relationship to me from the beginning. I didn't become Jewish to come to God, I came to God through the blood of Jesus. (Very few Jews were allowed to approach the holiest place either, things changed for them too.)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 2:26:19 AM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The priests represent all of Adonai's people in Adonai's Kingdom and as I pointed out the preists were permitted access to the Holy of Holies through the veil. If they are believing, they are not peons, but priests in Adonai's Kingdom.
Before Jesus only a FEW of God's people were priests.
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 9:13:23 AM
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ChainSaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
The whole approaching God protocol was abruptly and drastically changed.
You have a right to hold this doctrine, if you wish, I just do not see it supported by the principle of the rent veil.
It's hard to see how you can agree on so much but come to such a different conclusion.
Things are so drastically changed there is no longer any need for a literal Temple whatsoever to do the things that used to be done there. All that now gets done right on the altar of the heart through the better and lasting things of Christ himself. The torn curtain is the symbol of that drastic change. Hebrews makes this drastic change so abundantly clear, even calling the old way obsolete.
Now we approach God in the new way...Jesus. That's all you need. All you need is Jesus to approach God in the way that pleases God. This was not disclosed until the veil was torn. And this new way of approaching God through Jesus by the Spirit can be done from Samaria, from Bagdad, from Cleveland, or any other place in the whole world, and to God's complete and total satisfaction. That's a drastic change my friend.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/6/2009 9:22:05 AM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 9:24:24 AM
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ChainSaw
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I think what you have to understand, BlueT, is that the literal Temple is no longer an accurate representation of that which is in heaven, because of the work of Christ. The literal Temple represented separation and isolation from God and his benefits. In fact this isolation was required by law. IOW, the law of the Temple actually legislated your separation from God. How is that an accurate representation of how things are now? That law that kept us from God and separated us from God has now been removed. The torn veil is a picture of the removal of the law of separation and it's obsolesence in the New Covenant.
Remember, talkin' about the laws of the Temple here, folks, and how they relate to our relationship with God in regard to access to him through the veil. Totally on topic.
< Message edited by ChainSaw -- 11/6/2009 9:34:11 AM >
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 11:49:53 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
So, if we look to the earthly temple we can come to a better understand how things are in Adonai's Kingdom. Thus rather than diminishing the importance of the earthly temple, the rending of the veil brings it's value into proper prospective.
What comes into proper perspective through the rending of the veil is JESUS. He is ALL. He is EVERYTHING.
To emphasize anything other than JESUS and His finished work on Calvary is to diminish the most important thing.
The value of the rent veil is that this unworthy, rebellious one (moi) has been forgiven and by repenting and believing in Jesus' sacrifice for me, I receive all that God has for me. I am now His child. I am now royalty. I am a priest. His seal is upon me. I am seated in the heavenlies. I have an inheritance reserved in heaven and protected by the power of God.
I love Jesus. And I am filled with thankfulness and awe for all He has done and continues to do. That's how things are in the kingdom of God. . . living in the glory. 
Who needs an earthly temple when we have Christ in me, the hope of glory?
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 4:23:58 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The priests represent all of Adonai's people in Adonai's Kingdom and as I pointed out the preists were permitted access to the Holy of Holies through the veil. If they are believing, they are not peons, but priests in Adonai's Kingdom.
Before Jesus only a FEW of God's people were priests.
In the earthly Temple, yes. However, in day to day life all of Adonai's people were to interceed for the nations. Isaiah 49:3 & 6 "He said to me, "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor." . . . "I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 4:35:44 PM
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rawr.ben
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Let me see if I am grasping this properly Blue, by doing it in my own words.
The torn veil represents Yeshua's sacrifice and resurrection.
It is through that that we have access to Adonai (this, under the line of thinking of "no one comes to the Father except through me").
What the veil did not do was "loose Adonai's Spirit everywhere" but made the Holy of Holies accessible to us, however, only through the Temple (in the symbolic form), and this done by Yeshua's sacrifice.
Is this sounding right?
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rawr.ben
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 6:52:07 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChainSaw
It's hard to see how you can agree on so much but come to such a different conclusion.
On the issue of the earthly Temple and preisthood, I even differ with some in my own community.
quote:
Things are so drastically changed there is no longer any need for a literal Temple whatsoever to do the things that used to be done there. All that now gets done right on the altar of the heart through the better and lasting things of Christ himself. The torn curtain is the symbol of that drastic change. Hebrews makes this drastic change so abundantly clear, even calling the old way obsolete.
Obsolete may not be a proper translation. Some translate it as old and aging. Now I hate to think of myself as obosolete. However, if by obsolete he means gone forever, what are we to do with this passage?
Zech 14:19-21 "This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. On that day ~holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty."
quote:
Now we approach God in the new way...Jesus. That's all you need. All you need is Jesus to approach God in the way that pleases God. This was not disclosed until the veil was torn. And this new way of approaching God through Jesus by the Spirit can be done from Samaria, from Bagdad, from Cleveland, or any other place in the whole world, and to God's complete and total satisfaction. That's a drastic change my friend.
Yes, but that is what the veil represents. The ultimate meaning of the veil was not made clear until The Sacrifice, when the veil was torn. From the temperal prespective the blood of the atonement sacrifice, that which represented all of the other sacrifices that had been made, must pass through the veil(Yeshua) to be accepted. Now that we see that, in The Kingdom, Yeshua is not only The Veil but also the Sacrifice and He who resides over the Ark, the representation would need to be changed, but the all of the other lessons one can see in the Temple and it's practices need not be altered.
I guess when Yeshua returns we will know for sure if the earthly Temple is "obsolete" or not. However, it appears to me that there will be sacrifices when the Kingdom is literally established. What one needs to approach Adonai today is off topic, unless one were drawing a direct instruction on daily living from the Temple and the Veil. That is my point such conclusions can not be drawn from the rending of the veil, one must make some kind of doctrinal connection in order to come to that conclusion. Therefore, the use of the phrase, "The veil was rent." as nonsequitor is not valid. One must come up with an actual argument based on different information that more directly speaks to the various issues with regard to things mentioned in the Tanach(OT).
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 9:26:48 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
So, if we look to the earthly temple we can come to a better understand how things are in Adonai's Kingdom. Thus rather than diminishing the importance of the earthly temple, the rending of the veil brings it's value into proper prospective.
What comes into proper perspective through the rending of the veil is JESUS. He is ALL. He is EVERYTHING.
To emphasize anything other than JESUS and His finished work on Calvary is to diminish the most important thing.
The value of the rent veil is that this unworthy, rebellious one (moi) has been forgiven and by repenting and believing in Jesus' sacrifice for me, I receive all that God has for me. I am now His child. I am now royalty. I am a priest. His seal is upon me. I am seated in the heavenlies. I have an inheritance reserved in heaven and protected by the power of God.
I love Jesus. And I am filled with thankfulness and awe for all He has done and continues to do. That's how things are in the kingdom of God. . . living in the glory.
Who needs an earthly temple when we have Christ in me, the hope of glory?
The problem with that view is in knowing what those things mean. As Paul says with regard to covetiousness, (Rom. 7:7b) "I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."" Things presented in the Tanach(OT) cause us to ask questions we would not otherwise ask and provide a better understanding of what those things actually mean. How do we know what "JESUS" and His finished work on Calvary is without knowing who Adonai is and what it means for Him to save? We get these concepts from the Tanach. How would we understand substitutionary sacrifice without the concept of a proper sacrifice as presented in the Tanach? How would we make sense of much of what Paul says without the Tanach to which he repeatedly refers? Finally, how would we even have a clue as the what Yeshua meant when He said, "It is finished.", if we did not know where to look to find out what "it" is? Each of the sentences in your second paragraph refers to some thing or concept that was alien to everyone who was not familiar to some extent with the Tanach in Paul's day.
Your personal experience and what one should do today is beyond the scope of this thread, we are talking about the symbolism of the rent veil and not one's viceral reaction to it. If the idioms and symbolism of the Tanach are of no value, why would Paul use them so extensively?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/6/2009 9:35:42 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 9:47:05 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2939
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
Let me see if I am grasping this properly Blue, by doing it in my own words.
The torn veil represents Yeshua's sacrifice and resurrection.
It is through that that we have access to Adonai (this, under the line of thinking of "no one comes to the Father except through me").
What the veil did not do was "loose Adonai's Spirit everywhere" but made the Holy of Holies accessible to us, however, only through the Temple (in the symbolic form), and this done by Yeshua's sacrifice.
Is this sounding right?
Close, the veil is Yeshua's flesh which was rent and through which Adonai views us. We have not discussed the Spirit of Adonai. That would be the incense, which continually burns before the veil and also fills the Temple. Therefore, in Adonai's Kingdom Adonai's Spirit has continually passed through the veil and enveloped The Holy of Holies. At the same time it has also moved throughout the temple envigerating the priests, His people, who minister to Him and those in the outer court, training them in the ways of Adonai. Of course, we can not get into what those ways are in this thread. Even examining the practices of the outer court or the duties in the temple would beg the question of how those things apply today. That line of discussion has been reserved for what might be considered "the holy place" in the doctrine folder.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 10:24:31 PM
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rawr.ben
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Thanks Blue! This has been most interesting to me. My Messianic journey has been short so far, and I am learning so much every day.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Hebrews 9 Rending the veil - 11/6/2009 10:32:13 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1811
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quote:
The problem with that view is in knowing what those things mean. As Paul says with regard to covetiousness, (Rom. 7:7b) "I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."" Things presented in the Tanach(OT) cause us to ask questions we would not otherwise ask and provide a better understanding of what those things actually mean. How do we know what "JESUS" and His finished work on Calvary is without knowing who Adonai is and what it means for Him to save? We get these concepts from the Tanach. How would we understand substitutionary sacrifice without the concept of a proper sacrifice as presented in the Tanach? How would we make sense of much of what Paul says without the Tanach to which he repeatedly refers? Finally, how would we even have a clue as the what Yeshua meant when He said, "It is finished.", if we did not know where to look to find out what "it" is? Each of the sentences in your second paragraph refers to some thing or concept that was alien to everyone who was not familiar to some extent with the Tanach in Paul's day.
Your personal experience and what one should do today is beyond the scope of this thread, we are talking about the symbolism of the rent veil and not one's viceral reaction to it. If the idioms and symbolism of the Tanach are of no value, why would Paul use them so extensively?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/6/2009 9:35:42 PM >
Because Paul's desire was for ALL to come to salvation. Those idioms and symbols were a part of their heritage. Paul was using the things they knew to bring them the knowledge of salvation through Jesus. At Mars Hill, for example, he spoke quite differently. He spoke to what he knew his audience would understand.
The Lord is gracious and reveals as we are ready to learn. As a young child, He called to me as I sang 'Holy, Holy, Holy'. The church I grew up in no longer teaches what I consider the basics of the faith. Yet the Lord found me. And has graciously taught me. And, yes, the closer I grow to Him, the more I want to understand of Him and His ways.
Is He a trustworthy Teacher? Will He guide me into all truth? Will He teach me about all things? His word tells me so.
Visceral? Yes, I am passionate about Jesus. The rending of the veil should illicit a visceral response if one understands it at all. The visceral response is the proper response to what Christ has done for us and the personal price He paid for our salvation.
But I'm still listening. LL
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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