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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/6/2009 5:04:11 PM
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SweetLittleErin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
Where my parents live is not very rural either, there is a major military base in their town. You would really think they would be better equipped but they aren't. We had 2 friends who were both medivac'ed to larger hospitals. Honestly, the worst part about it is that they are then 2 hours away from their newborn for who knows how many weeks.
Thats something I can relate to 
Our nearest hospital with NICU capabilities is two hours away.
Our town JUST got our first OB about a year ago. I was one of her first patients, and her first preemie. Here if they can stall your labor you are medflighted or transported, if they cannot stop your labor (I was told they would not transport a woman in active labor)they stall you as long as possible and bring in a NICU team.
I am pretty crunchy when it comes to birth, however, I am also not anti medicine. Had my little one not been able to be born at a hospital he likely would not have survived. I however DO NOT want the govt telling me how I can give birth. I would LOVE to give birth at home, though its unlikely to happen (purposefully, that is).
It is a VERY slippery slope. It should be my choice how, where, and with whom I choose to give birth, not something mandated by law.
_____________________________
~Erin~
Wife to Klay
Mommy to Isaac
A Glimpse Of Pink (My Blog)
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/6/2009 5:23:21 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2531
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SweetLittleErin
It is a VERY slippery slope. It should be my choice how, where, and with whom I choose to give birth, not something mandated by law.
It is more slippery than maybe you realize.
How much leeway do we have to put others at risk? Can I drive while drinking? Can I drive my sports car too fast?
If I have a dangerous viral disease, should I be able to go visit my dad in the hospital?
How much choice do I have when it comes to reproductive issues? At what point is the safety of the child a big enough issue to force a governmental response? 100% risk of death, 10% risk, 1%, 0.5% ...?
The point being that we Christians don't fully buy into that argument. We just differ on where we draw the line.
There's no fundamental right to keep government out of our business when our wants conflict with someone else's needs.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/6/2009 7:24:40 PM
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Katie51
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I saw that tv show. The births were supposed to be pain free. It just dont work like that, as most of us know. (I have had two kids and had "natural" childbirth...all I can say about that decision is HAVE THE EPIDURAL. Back in the 80s you were somehow way cool if you gave birth without anesthesia. I'm not sure how hurting like mad for hours made you superior in the birth experience. I think its an extremely dangerous practice. Many women died in childbirth in my grandmothers day doing this, because at that time they had no choice! We do now. I told my daughter GET THE EPIDURAL. Some wont agree and to each his own.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/6/2009 11:27:28 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
How much choice do I have when it comes to reproductive issues? At what point is the safety of the child a big enough issue to force a governmental response? 100% risk of death, 10% risk, 1%, 0.5% ...?
That risk is taken in a hospital as well, but since they are regularly taken risks it's apparently not as bad.
What is the risk of death with Cytotec which is used regularly for labor induction? What is the risk of hyperstimulation of the uterus which can lead to uterine rupture?
What is the risk of death or serious injury with a vacuum or forceps extraction?
What is the risk of serious injury to the mother with an epidural?
What if I choose to skip Group B Strep testing, somehow am positive AND manage to pass it on to my child? (the risk of that, btw, is about .05% according to the CDC) Am I then responsible?
If a .05% is big enough, then we should be hooking every single woman who is in labor to an IV antibiotic drip, but we don't. In fact, we don't even accurately test for GBS. Most women are tested around the 36th week of pregnancy, a woman who is negative could easily become positive by the time she goes into labor and vice versa.
I think that if we start legislating what is and isn't a valid risk we are going to end up with results that the majority don't really like.
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/7/2009 10:31:30 AM
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Katie51
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I hope no expectant mothers are reading this forum. There is a risk to everything in life. For young mothers today there is so much information it is overwhelming. I cant see how "freebirthing" is safe under any circumstances. I would never do it or want anyone I know to do it. Why compare it to the safety of an epidural? Millions of women have epidurals with no serious side effects.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/7/2009 11:11:43 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2531
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Mrs. Wifey -
We legislate what is and is not a legitimate risk all the time, every day.
You can't drive drunk.
You can't shoot a gun for target practice inside city limits.
You can't (or soon won't be able to) drive while texting.
Considering freebirthing as illegal is nothing new. There all myriads of high risk activities that we tell people they can't do.
The issue isn't legislation of acceptable risks - it's drawing limits around the kind of risk you can take with other people's lives. If you want to skydive, go for it. Base jumping? Have a ball.
Drive drunk or take an otherwise stupid and unnecessary risk with someone else's life without their knowledge? No way.
No amount of "no government interference in people's lives" kind of logic can get around the fact that it is morally wrong to take unnecessary risks with another persons life without their permission or knowledge.
End or rant.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/7/2009 11:21:42 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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I get what we legislate and what we don't, I'm pretty active in the political scene 
What I'm saying is, where do you draw the line at what is and isn't a risk? Interventions in a "normal" hospital birth all carry a risk, in some cases it's much more significant risk then giving birth at home without an attendant(in a full term, healthy pregnancy).
Why are those risks acceptable but UC is not?
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/7/2009 2:19:13 PM
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GroupW
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Do you really think birthing at home is safer than in a hospital???
Agreed, one needs to look at the data to know if it's a fight worth fighting (
(the data is available).
There is no way you can argue though that it's safer than a birth with medical assistance present.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/7/2009 2:33:24 PM
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solo_soprano23
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But I think that's the issue. There is a level of uncertainty about birth, but the location of the birth can make a difference, if one can help it. I don't care how women have their babies; I care more about care being as available and as close as possible, because even if you had the perfect pregnancy, that doesn't mean you'll have a perfect delivery-- even if stats are on your "side." Again, if women want to do that to themselves, they choose that. I don't advocate choosing certain things when there is another person involved. I don't think people will ever agree about where to draw the line, but there does need to be a clear line somewhere.
< Message edited by solo_soprano23 -- 11/7/2009 2:40:00 PM >
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/7/2009 2:38:08 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
Do you really think birthing at home is safer than in a hospital???
With a well trained midwife? Absolutely in 98% of cases with a normal, healthy, full term pregnancy.
Without a midwife? It's not a choice I would make but that doesn't mean that we need to outlaw it as I don't think that it is necessarily 1) completely dangerous or 2) an enforceable prevention. As it is now midwife attended homebirths are illegal in some states, but people are still homebirthing there. It's just become an "underground" network of midwives who are willing to attend.
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/7/2009 5:00:52 PM
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GroupW
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Actually I didn't mean midwife assisted births. Those I'm ok with even though in this day and age I think it's a bit silly.
98% of the time I think unassisted home births are fine also.
98% of all drunks probably arrive home safe and sound as well, so I disagree that it's an unreasonable place to intervene.
I figure when people stop doing stupid things that put others at risk, then uncle Sam can back off. Until then I don't see the problem.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/8/2009 1:07:46 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4910
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Yep, there are several states where midwifery is illegal. In those states, if a midwife delivers a baby, she's officially there as a "friend" and the dad is the one listed as the one who delivered the baby.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/9/2009 12:02:21 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
In normal circumstances the level of medical intervention that we do is really unnecessary. I think oftentimes its the high level of medical intervention and the attitudes of doctors that CAUSE problems.
Well, we are a medicated society aren't we? We take pain meds for the slightest bump. A pain free birth is the goal for many. And I don't think lawsuits help either.
_____________________________
Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/9/2009 12:08:31 PM
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solo_soprano23
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If you don't want intervention, that's when it's time to do research and find the right doctor if one is available. If a woman WANTS something, and it's there, that's their right and choice, whether or not you like it.
< Message edited by solo_soprano23 -- 11/9/2009 12:15:14 PM >
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/9/2009 12:39:32 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2531
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SweetLittleErin
Comparing giving birth at home to drunk driving??  Seriously?
Why not? Both take needless risks with another's well being without their consent.
I think the analogy is accurate once we put our emotions and personal biases/attitudes aside. Factually, they are quite similar.
My point being not necessarily that things of this sort should be always be legislated, only that if there are other risks with similar probabilities and severities that we are ok in limiting, there is no particular reason this should be legislatively off limits.
We already as christians say that a woman does not have carte blanche to do with her body as she chooses. Why is this different?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/9/2009 2:29:16 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4910
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From: Formerly Jesus Land
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It really doesn't make sense to compare something that isn't even remotely related to the subject. We are talking about birth options here, not drunk driving. I agree with Maggie that a better comparison would be elective c-sections or epidurals.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/9/2009 3:06:56 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Why not? Both take needless risks with another's well being without their consent.
Hospital birth is not 100% risk free either. And baby doesn't get consent there either.
Would you include elective (not medically necessary) c-section along with homebirth and drunk driving? Needless risk there too. 
Actually,
-if the risks were significant compared to other risks that we cover legislatively (like drunk driving or other activities where one individual's action affects another), AND
- those activities resulted from an optional choice
Then, yes, I think those would be legitimate targets.
True, being born in a hospital is not risk free. Living is risky. The question is what right does one person have to inflict GREATER risk on another person without their consent.
It's pretty much established at this point that just home birth isn't any riskier nor any safer overall. On that point, there's no issue.
The only issue is that folks want to argue that home birth without medical assistance is OK - in the absence of any data that says it's not adding risk. If it adds an unacceptably high risk, then yes it should be legislated.
Just seems to me that we should be consistent and regulate activities that inflict similar amounts of risk on third parties in similar fashions. Also seems to me that before one gives people carte blanche to accept a risk on someone else's behalf, we should have a pretty good idea of what that risk really is.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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I don't too much care what choice a woman makes; it's about the baby to me, and the fact that there is no way to know what will happen, no matter how educated one is, or how much research they did, or what they want and desire. Some things you just can't always be psychic about.