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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 4:42:03 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
10NSEI is right, some people are just plain wrong, and while this may get me into trouble, I do agree that intentional freebirthing should be made illegal and prosecuted.
Some people are just plain wrong and should suffer the consequences of their bad judgement, but I think the government needs to stay out of this one. Survival of the fittest.
_____________________________
Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 5:16:06 PM
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Sideways
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Survival of the fittest? I've often thought that some people should not procreate, but that's a little harsh.
I understand the slippery slope argument, and I think it's often misapplied to scare people into not taking a stand against anything. If a baby suffers because of his mother's drinking, then yeah, I say prosecute the woman, although many doctors believe that extremely moderate drinking is not dangerous for a baby.
As far as the ultrasound example? If she had access to ultrasound testing (in other words she had decent medical care) and refused testing because of some wacky belief that it would hurt the baby, and the child had a medical problem that could've been helped with the ultrasound? I don't know...
I agree this is a really tricky thing, innocent babies who could be hurt by their parents' actions vs. the freedom to make medical choices for yourself and the minors in your family. I'll be the first to admit I don't have it all figured out.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 5:26:07 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
It should not be legal for you to take significant risks for another person who's unable to make that choice for himself.
But WHERE do you draw the line? Ok, so say we make "freebirthing" illegal. What if I choose not to "do" all the so called necessary pre-natal testing that my OB recommends and something happens that could have been prevented. Should I then be prosecuted because I chose not to do a test?
I know women who choose not to do ANY ultrasounds during their pregnancy. If their child is born with a serious heart defect and dies shortly after birth should they then be prosecuted because knowing before hand might have changed something?
It's all well and good to want to prevent UC births(although I find it quite ridiculous in a country that allows the intentional slaughter of babies) but when do we stop legislating what a woman can and can't choose in pregnancy?
True, there's a concern over what would constitute a "significant risk." But embedded within that is the potential fallacy of the slippery slope argument.
It may be difficult to determine where the line should be drawn, but that doesn't mean that its appropriate to draw NO line.
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"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 8:18:43 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
t may be difficult to determine where the line should be drawn, but that doesn't mean that its appropriate to draw NO line.
If a baby dies or has complications after birth and a midwife was present can the midwife be held accountable for the death or injury?
_____________________________
Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 8:31:01 PM
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GroupW
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I think there's a large enough body of existing law that says yes, if the mid-wife overstepped the law or was negligent.
Help me out a bit and tell me what you're driving at with that. I'm not connecting the dots.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 8:40:19 PM
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solo_soprano23
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I think it depends. If the midwife was supposed to see a problem during birth and didn't, or saw a problem but attempted to deal with it when he/she should have gone to a hospital, then yes. If he/she saw a problem but the mother refused to do anything about it despite being advised to, then that's the mother's fault. It just depends on the situation, and if there is "fault" to even be placed in that particular scenario. I'm not an advocate of being away from a facility when delivering anyway, mainly because if something needs immediate attention, it's there immediately (sorry to those who are all for homebirthing lol); it's not because I'm against a woman's wants, choices or desires about birthing, but for the baby's sake. However, if it's something that nothing could help, then that's just one of those things.
< Message edited by solo_soprano23 -- 11/3/2009 8:55:59 PM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/3/2009 9:16:49 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
I agree this is a really tricky thing, innocent babies who could be hurt by their parents' actions vs. the freedom to make medical choices for yourself and the minors in your family. I'll be the first to admit I don't have it all figured out.
Me either. Another similar area would be vaccinations--if a parent doesn't believe in vaccinations and then dies of a preventable disease, could they be prosecuted for negligence? I know that's not the topic, so I don't want to get too far into that particular scenario, but I think there are hundreds of examples where there is too much conflicting information available and parents find it hard to know what the best choice is for their child. Trying to find real answers on some of these issues is like trying to figure whether butter or margine is healthier for you.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/4/2009 12:38:17 AM
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acknwldgeverygdthing
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It would be great if every baby was born in a hospital, but unfortunately that doesn't guarantee a live baby. The only thing that is guaranteed(in a hospital) is that the hospital corp gets $$$$$$$.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/4/2009 12:29:14 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
Help me out a bit and tell me what you're driving at with that. I'm not connecting the dots.
I think I was referring to your comment about "drawing the line." Why can't we just let people choose? I would think that the death of a child would be punishment enough for a family. Why prosecute them?
_____________________________
Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/4/2009 1:10:35 PM
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GroupW
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Got it. I think that's a fair question.
It seems to me that there is a continuum and a range of valid and reasonable standards.
At the extremes on either end, though, lie insanity.
On the one hand, we don't want to make every difference of opinion or practice criminal, while on the other hand society has an interest in protecting the powerless.
For example, there are simple and rational things that all parents should do - like putting kids in car seats - that are simple and cheap enough to be able to reasonably say that the failure to do so is a ticketable offense. We make it ticketable so peole don't HAVE to undergo the agony of losing a child and having the state add to the burden by ticketing the parent.
We make it criminal not to seek medical attention for a child when it is urgently needed, because the failure to do so has heavy consequences for the child, and the child is not in a position to seek help for himself.
Those interventions are reasonable.
Where a society chooses to draw the line is something that people should debate vigorously and come to their own conclusions.
Clearly, we should neither give parents carte blanche to be stupid and negligent, neither should we second guess reasonable conclusions from a parent that differ from my own. In between those two extremes lies a very interesting debate.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 11/4/2009 1:24:51 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/4/2009 10:55:29 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
I know of a woman who already had 8 children, at least some of them were at home, freebirth style. The 9th baby died, and while it's not entirely clear if a hospital could've saved the baby's life, it certainly would've given the baby a better shot. There were clear indications leading up to the birth that all was not right with this one, and she had other people urging her to at least consult a midwife, but she rejected that advice for religious reasons.
That was the woman they talked about on the freejinger website, huh?
I remember looking at that lady's blog and thinking she was all over the map anyway....some of her pictures the family was covered from head to toe in mennonite garb, and other pictures were nudey shots of her children, and one (IMO gross) shot of her bare belly and legs...you couldn't even tell she had undies on (though I'm sure she did, I hope, anyway). What I really don't get about some of these conservatives is before they have babies they are so modest, and afterwards they'll show it all practically.
I think she did wind up in the hospital to finally save her own life, but it was too late for the baby's. Her actions even made the news, and made a lot of non pro life people doubt how pro life pro lifers really were.
< Message edited by OneOfHisJewels -- 11/4/2009 11:01:59 PM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/5/2009 11:58:53 AM
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stampinlady
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quote:
Clearly, we should neither give parents carte blanche to be stupid and negligent
I can understand this when after a child is born and being raised, but why not let them birth however they choose without legal consequences?
_____________________________
Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/5/2009 2:55:26 PM
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GroupW
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Simple. Because Christians are concerned about the safety of all unborn children. Including both the wanted and the unwanted.
There are reasonable risks to take, and there are unreasonable risks.
The real question isn't whether or not this is an appropriate place for government to intervene. The real questions are:
-how does this risk compare to other risks that we deem either acceptable or unacceptable.
- and then given that, is it logically consistent to intervene here.
In other words, is a governmental response logical given how this risk stacks up to others. Am I ignoring a big risk, or a minor one? Am I regulating something necessary, or am I taking a huge governmental approach to fixing a small problem when other more severe problems exist.
Whether it's right or not to intervene is a no brained. We do it all the time. The only question is in my mind a matter of whether or not if it's productive, or am I spending $100 to fix a $5 problem when $1,000 problems exist elsewhere.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 11/5/2009 3:01:57 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/5/2009 3:10:54 PM
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solo_soprano23
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I disagree with being able to just do whatever one wants in this situation. And I'll just agree to disagree, because I'm in the minority with birthing views on this forum. :)
If it were just the woman involved, I wouldn't care. I'm not a fan of purposefully delivering away from life-saving technologies, not because I want to squelch women's choices, but because there is a baby involved and you do not know how things will get along. If you run into a doc (or midwife) who wants their way or the highway, then do NOT choose them. It may benefit you to take the highway in search of someone who fits. I don't get this practice of throwing medicine and obstetrics under the bus because you run into a doc or healthcare professional that was bad or who you disagreed with. At some point it's time to take personal responsibility. I've had docs that did things like I didn't want (they did them how they wanted to)-- some did things that I could have died from, but once I saw this (and I should have seen it earlier but it was my fault for not asking questions), I had the choice to stay or go. It's time for all of us to ask questions early-on, let people know what we desire, and find that. I do take the blame for myself, for staying with docs when I knew info and should have left those doctors. I don't then turn around and say that the field of medicine is evil though. I can't always point the finger at everyone else.
I know some people don't have many choices, or are without insurance, etc.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/5/2009 3:31:06 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
The real question isn't whether or not this is an appropriate place for government to intervene. The real questions are:
-how does this risk compare to other risks that we deem either acceptable or unacceptable.
- and then given that, is it logically consistent to intervene here.
Right, and that's why there needs to be studies first before any legislative action is taken.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/5/2009 4:21:27 PM
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10SNE1?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
The real question isn't whether or not this is an appropriate place for government to intervene. The real questions are:
-how does this risk compare to other risks that we deem either acceptable or unacceptable.
- and then given that, is it logically consistent to intervene here.
Right, and that's why there needs to be studies first before any legislative action is taken.
Disclaimer: No one less an expert on statistics than me  but:
I'm not sure how realistic that is, Lisa. There are so few "freebirths" as percentage of yearly births in this country that I'm not sure you can actually draw much information from looking at them.
Plus, these tend to be "off the grid"-types in general. Who is to say how open they would be to being studied?
Also, I have a neighbor who has had five babies at home ( all but her first). To the best of my knowledge there has always been a midwife present. However, both she and her husband are doctors so they couldn't freebirth if they tried!  My point is. however, they could answer a survey in such a way as to skew the results. "Yes! We have had five wonderful freebirths, just hubby and I present".
I'm thinking of our best friends, fresh out of high school, he was paramedic who once delivered a baby in the back of an ambulance. That was almost 20 years old. He hasn't done anything medical related since. Would you count them as freebirthers?
< Message edited by 10SNE1? -- 11/5/2009 4:28:17 PM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/5/2009 9:00:21 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
Simple. Because Christians are concerned about the safety of all unborn children. Including both the wanted and the unwanted.
We would have to all agree that homebirth and/or UC are inherently dangerous 
quote:
I'm not a fan of purposefully delivering away from life-saving technologies, not because I want to squelch women's choices, but because there is a baby involved and you do not know how things will get along.
Honestly, I don't really buy this argument either. The hospital where my parents live is *not* equipped any better then a midwife for caring for a premature birth or emergent situation with a newborn, any mother in labor before 34-35 weeks is life flighted 2 hours away to John's Hopkins. They have the same exact things- an air flow resuscitation bag and oxygen. They also have an isolet but really, a mother holding a baby and not cutting the cord until 911 arrives is just as good. They don't have a neonatologist or even a NICU NP on staff.
Now sure, where I delivered in a hospital with a level III NICU there is obviously a higher standard of care available, but the majority of hospitals in rural areas do not have those facilities available.
< Message edited by Mrs.Wifey -- 11/5/2009 9:09:20 PM >
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Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/5/2009 9:15:45 PM
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solo_soprano23
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I find that in many of the rural areas here one doesn't have many choices, and the clinics and hospitals don't have as much. Some of them barely have ob/gyns to begin with, and many of them aren't delivering babies anymore.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/5/2009 9:30:20 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Very true. I saw an OB in that town while I was staying with my parents. She is considered one of the best and lets just say I was *not* impressed. I am very glad to be back in a large area with highly reputable doctors and hospitals. But I'm rather high risk, otherwise I would see a midwife.
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Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/5/2009 11:20:51 PM
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myka
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quote:
The hospital where my parents live is *not* equipped any better then a midwife for caring for a premature birth or emergent situation with a newborn, any mother in labor before 34-35 weeks is life flighted 2 hours away to John's Hopkins. They have the same exact things- an air flow resuscitation bag and oxygen.
The hospital where I delivered was not equipped with anything for a premature delivery, either (before 34 weeks). If I had delivered before about 32 weeks (there is another close hospital that can handle that age), the 'plan' was to medi-flight a perinatal team to the hospital and take the baby and the med. team via ambulance to Children's--they couldn't take infants via medi-flight because of state regulations. I'm not is a terribly rural area either...
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/6/2009 12:38:39 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Where my parents live is not very rural either, there is a major military base in their town. You would really think they would be better equipped but they aren't. We had 2 friends who were both medivac'ed to larger hospitals. Honestly, the worst part about it is that they are then 2 hours away from their newborn for who knows how many weeks.
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/6/2009 8:28:31 AM
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10SNE1?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
Simple. Because Christians are concerned about the safety of all unborn children. Including both the wanted and the unwanted.
We would have to all agree that homebirth and/or UC are inherently dangerous
quote:
I'm not a fan of purposefully delivering away from life-saving technologies, not because I want to squelch women's choices, but because there is a baby involved and you do not know how things will get along.
Honestly, I don't really buy this argument either. The hospital where my parents live is *not* equipped any better then a midwife for caring for a premature birth or emergent situation with a newborn, any mother in labor before 34-35 weeks is life flighted 2 hours away to John's Hopkins. They have the same exact things- an air flow resuscitation bag and oxygen. They also have an isolet but really, a mother holding a baby and not cutting the cord until 911 arrives is just as good. They don't have a neonatologist or even a NICU NP on staff.
Now sure, where I delivered in a hospital with a level III NICU there is obviously a higher standard of care available, but the majority of hospitals in rural areas do not have those facilities available.
But the OP/subject of this discussion has NOTHING to do with home births attended by a trained midwife. This thread is about women with no medical/OB training delivering alone or with only an equally non-trained husband present.
Honestly Ryanne, you sound like my 74 year old mountain raised Mama! You can talk until your blue in the face and my mom can't wrap her head around the concept of "midwife" meaning anything but the ill-trained and ill-equipped neighbor woman who presided over my grarndmother's three stillbirths.
Of course, my mom being of the generation which watched many,many babies die at home and not a few mothers...thinks all home birth should be illegal.
Are you sure you want to suggest that midwives and UC belong in the same discussion?
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/6/2009 11:05:20 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
Are you sure you want to suggest that midwives and UC belong in the same discussion?
Lol, you are right.
But when it comes down to it and I am not pro-legislation of much of anything, so this is not something that I would ask my senators/congresspeople to pass.
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Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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