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Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 11:37:36 AM
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stampinlady
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http://health.discovery.com/tv/crib-notes/freebirthing.html
I just watched this on Discovery Health this morning and had a whole bunch of thoughts run through my head. Is it safe? What if something wrong happen? Can you be held accountable if something goes seriously wrong? Should the local health and wellfare be allowed to come in to your home an make sure everything is ok? Is that against our freedoms?
Since biblical times woman have used midwives and doula's in the whole labor process and many have had sucessfull births, but doing on our own without trained help? That seem very risky to me, but what do I know I had my kids in a hospital. Anyway, what do you think? Should this be allowed to go on? Can the government step in and stop this? Is this part of our rights as people? Is this morall and ethically right?
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"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 11:48:54 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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I think if a woman does this she is morally culpaple for whatever happens. I'm not interested in taking on culpability for the death of a baby if it could have been prevented, so I will never "freebirth" (on purpose--labors that happen too fast to get assistance are ethically different). I think having a birth attendant trained in management of complications is important. If my birth is normal, yes I want to be left alone and just get on with it. But if something goes wrong, things can go downhill quickly and I want someone there who knows how to save my life and my baby's life, because if I am in trouble, I'm not going to be able to think straight or fast enough, even if I know what to do academically.
I don't believe the government should be monitoring woman and forcing them into hospitals, though, or forcing them to do whatever the High-and-mighties in OB have decided is best. That's a little more interferance than I could tolerate. Arbitrary rules just don't work with birth, because there is a large range for normal.
Having had three babies, and run into some really awful doctors, I can understand the temptation, though.  Having hung around the birthing world for so many years, I know there are women who have been traumatized by their caregivers and I don't believe it's all in their heads. 
< Message edited by 3cappuccinosmom -- 10/31/2009 11:56:24 AM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 12:21:08 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
it should be to encourage excellent midwifery programs,
and maybe this movement will encourage midwifery and doulas. I have a friend in WY who is a doula or getting her training in it and would love it if she could do more.
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Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 12:34:24 PM
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solo_soprano23
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I don't advocate it. I'm not big on that kind of birthing anyway, but wherever one delivers-- be it home, out, in the hospital-- there needs to be a well-trained/educated medical professional (this is all my opinion). I do think anything that happens because of choosing this route should be on the woman who chose it.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 2:12:53 PM
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Consecrated2God
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I'm don't think it's a moral issue. Mary probably freebirthed when she gave birth to Jesus. While it's not for everyone, I do know a few people who are comfortable with that. Several years ago I talked to a lady whose daughter gave birth four times at home with no assistance. Ironically, in the state this woman lived in, midwifery was illegal.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 2:26:16 PM
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Consecrated2God
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There might be some risk to it, and I'm sure if something goes wrong she is going to feel terrible, but what about other risky choices associated with childbearing and birth? For example, there is a risk associated with epidurals. If something happens because of an epidural, is the mother morally culpable for that, too? I'm just reluctant to say she is. I think anytime something goes wrong because of a choice that the parents made, the guilt, misplaced or not, is going to be tremendous. Even if nothing the mother did contributed to it, a lot of women still wonder if they could have prevented it and tend to feel guilt.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 3:04:26 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
If something happens because of an epidural, is the mother morally culpable for that, too?
I would say that's different because a. She's very likely been urged by medical professionals to have it, with the risks downplayed, and b. She's put herself in the care of people who she believes are better educated and better equipped to keep her and her baby safe, and is in a place where averting disaster if it happens is more quickly and easily done than at home. At very least the weight of culpability would be shared between her and the doctors.
But with freebirthing, it's *all* on the woman. And there are some things that a woman all by herself simply cannot deal with, and some things that can happen so quickly that she might not even have the chance to dial 911. If she knows that, and chooses to go ahead completely on her own, and something happens, I think she also needs to be willing to accept full responsibility for whatever happens.
Again, I can understand why a woman would choose that option. I'm actually very sympathetic to those women. I've joked about "accidentally" staying home, but even then I wouldn't be freebirthing, as my husband, and both my parents have OB experience and also know when more serious help is needed. I just know that I couldn't live with myself if something happened to my baby purely because I chose to do that all by myself.
< Message edited by 3cappuccinosmom -- 10/31/2009 3:13:39 PM >
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 3:49:52 PM
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Sideways
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I know of a woman who already had 8 children, at least some of them were at home, freebirth style. The 9th baby died, and while it's not entirely clear if a hospital could've saved the baby's life, it certainly would've given the baby a better shot. There were clear indications leading up to the birth that all was not right with this one, and she had other people urging her to at least consult a midwife, but she rejected that advice for religious reasons.
I also support good midwifery programs that give woman the option to have a natural birth with a trained professional present to help in case of an emergency. I've seen that freebirthing TV program, and while most of the women were well educated, one was painfully ignorant. I think the same would be true on a larger scale. Freebirthing is dangerous, in my opinion, but I still strongly support the option to home birth with a trained midwife present.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 4:24:09 PM
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daughteroftheking718
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I personally want as little medical intervention as humanly necessary when i give birth to my children. I have spent the majority of my child hood in and out of hospitals and think that doctors get in the way of what is supposed to be a natural experience for a woman.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 4:30:26 PM
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Liveloved
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The last thing I would desire is for the government to step in. Yikes!
Freebirthing is what used to be the norm. Our medical system has created a real dilemna in childbirth. . . and we are responsible for that system.
In days of old, when children were born at home, compromised children usually died. With hospital births and all of our medical technology, we now have the ability to save lives beyond our own ability to judge.
I know this is an extremely emotion charged topic. But I think we have in some ways lost our minds (and right judgment) when it comes to these things. Life and death are both very difficult and it seems to be equally difficult for believers. It shouldn't be.
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 4:41:09 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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Preface: I am totally and completely and passionately an advocate of homebirth and natural birth.  I have wished with all three of my births that homebirth was an option. I *loved* my natural births. I am absolutely in favor of letting women labor without interferance when things are going well, and I totally concur that our current birth model is really screwed up.
However......
quote:
Freebirthing is what used to be the norm.
Freebirthing as defined here (from what I can tell) is a woman birthing completely alone or with only her husband there.
In human history with very few exceptions, the norm has been women birthing at home in the company of other women, especially favoring women with experience delivering babies. That is a model I can totally approve of.
Even a healthy baby or a healthy mother can die lacking a very simple bit of assistance, no fancy technology required. A mom may have a baby stuck in her pelvis that simply requires strong pressure on her hip bones, but she can't do that herself and her husband may not know how to. A healthy mom with a healthy baby may hemorrhage to death without someone knowledgable there to recognize the signs that disaster is about to happen. A perfectly healthy baby can die from cord compression if no one present is knowledgable to recognize that is happening and know how to deal with it. And horribly in the "old days", many healthy babies were taken apart in the womb, killing them and putting the mother in severe danger, because they were stuck and the technology we have today was not available. And as a Christian, I'm not sure "survival of the fittest, let everyone else fall by the wayside" should be our motto.
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The Ballad of Bad Biruk
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 4:49:23 PM
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solo_soprano23
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I think sometimes the birth experience for the woman has begun to override the fact that there are two lives to account for. I'm all for a woman's comfort and desires long as the baby's life and health are equally important in the situation.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 8:44:04 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
If something happens because of an epidural, is the mother morally culpable for that, too?
I would say that's different because a. She's very likely been urged by medical professionals to have it, with the risks downplayed, and b. She's put herself in the care of people who she believes are better educated and better equipped to keep her and her baby safe, and is in a place where averting disaster if it happens is more quickly and easily done than at home. At very least the weight of culpability would be shared between her and the doctors.
Hmm, I don't know. I'm sure that there are women who have had epidurals knowing the risks. I'm one myself--I just was tired of doing labor and wanted to try an epidural because I thought it would be easier. No one pressured me. I wished I hadn't, not because the baby suffered but because I did, but if anything had happened to the baby I would have felt horrible. And on the flip side, I can imagine that some people make other birthing choices, even freebirthing, because of peer pressure or because they read an article or a blog, and were convinced that doctors are evil. So I think it can go both ways.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 9:06:22 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
And on the flip side, I can imagine that some people make other birthing choices, even freebirthing, because of peer pressure or because they read an article or a blog, and were convinced that doctors are evil. So I think it can go both ways.
Absolutely. I have seen men who preach that women who go to a hospital to give birth are going against the will of God, and religious pressure goes way beyond standard peer pressure.
In that same TV special the really ignorant mom (who thought she should call 911 if the baby didn't breath after 20 minutes), said that she felt a midwife would put her and her baby in danger. How exactly? I dunno. The other moms seemed more rational and educated.
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Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 9:19:29 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Ultimately I think whatever choice we make we need to do it understanding that we bear at least some responsibility for it.
That's true.
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"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 10/31/2009 9:30:38 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
In human history with very few exceptions, the norm has been women birthing at home in the company of other women, especially favoring women with experience delivering babies. That is a model I can totally approve of.
The norm for pioneer women? I'm not sure. For women who were fortunate to be a part of a community, this (birthing at home in the company of experienced women) is certainly true. But many of our country's babys were birthed on the prairie, away from the luxury of experienced women. I am certainly not advocating this but just stating that freebirthing is similar.
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Freebirthing, great idea or just too dangerous? - 11/1/2009 12:44:42 PM
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agapetos
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The US spends more money on mothers' health than any other nation in the world, yet women in America are more likely to die during childbirth than they are in most other developed countries, according to the OECD and WHO.
Link
It's an interesting article. It looks at childbirth in different countries around the world (US, UK, Ethiopia, Malawi and Afghanistan).
I have my doubts about whether women really have to right to opt for the extreme that 'freebirthing' seems to be. I also have my doubts on whether the government really have the right to be so involved in the way women give birth. Interestingly, it seems that women seem to have more choice in the UK about the way they give birth than they do in the US, despite our 'socialist' (as so many Americans call it) health care system ~ and the death rate is lower (though still nothing to be proud of).
Without modern medical treatments, my sister may have died giving birth to her second baby. She most certainly would have died during the birth of her third baby. I have 2 friends (UK) who both had pre-eclampsia and would have died after their first pregnancies. One of those friends had twins, the other a little boy. They were born 6 and 12 weeks respectively. Those children would have died without modern medical treatment.
The majority of women aren't nearly as physically fit as they would have been in (US) pioneer time. I'm not just talking about being overweight, but that we simply have a less active lifestyle now ~ which is far more hectic. Giving birth then was not the same as freebirthing (as 3cappuccinosmom's said). Would women really want to go back to the high birth rate and infant mortality rate that previous generations have had to deal with?
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MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT ~ PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS! 
But pioneer days were a drop in the bucket of history when thinking about the whole. 
