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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/4/2009 2:22:53 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
But with regard to God pouring out His HS upon people that is not what we are talking about.
Actually, I am talking about God pouring out his spirit to all people making it accessible for us to be reconciled back. God pouring out his spirit to show man that the enemy is not in control of HIS creation but that God is in control of all of it. That he set Jesus over all of it.
I asked this question because certain denominations believe that the Holy Spirit is only accessible AFTER being saved. That the Holy Spirit only draws people elected by God and it was not meant for all mankind. They say that man can only be indwelled first to even ask for forgiveness. To me, these verse certainly say that it was poured out on all flesh and is accessible to all mankind if they will listen and accept Christ as the way. These verses tell me that the Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh convicting us of our sins and calls us to repentance. It is man's choice to say yes or no to it. So, in this way, yes, God did pour out his Spirit on all flesh.
You might have a problem with those who wish to limit Adonai's Spirit due to shackling Him to a doctrinal timeline. However, given your caveats, I see this as appropriate to the extent that Adonai's Spirit is available to them. If it were not for Adonai's Spirit being gracious to them, the unrightious would fall stone cold dead.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/4/2009 2:30:48 PM >
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/4/2009 2:46:58 PM
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drmark
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quote:
If it were not for Adonai's Spirit being gracious to them, the unrightious would fall stone cold dead. Is this why Adam and Eve did not "fall stone cold dead" the moment they ate the forbidden fruit?
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/4/2009 4:07:51 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If it were not for Adonai's Spirit being gracious to them, the unrightious would fall stone cold dead. Is this why Adam and Eve did not "fall stone cold dead" the moment they ate the forbidden fruit?
Yes, the reason they did not fall stone cold dead is because of the Promise, which is Adonai's Spirit.
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/4/2009 4:20:10 PM
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drmark
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And what do you think A&E knew about "the Promise", Bt? Where does that term occur in Scripture?
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/4/2009 4:46:22 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
And what do you think A&E knew about "the Promise", Bt? Where does that term occur in Scripture?
(Gen3:14) "So the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.""
and
(vs. 21) The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
Also Paul tells us, (Heb. 11:4) "By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead."
This is all we know for sure of what Adam and Eve knew. Though it is not called the Promise until later, when it is clarified and called the promise that the throne of Israel would not depart from the house of David, it has been understood to be the promise of Ha Meshiach throughout judaism to this day. As Peter says in Acts 2:38-39, "Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh! For the promise is for you, for your children, and for those far away - as many as ADONAI our God may call!"
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/4/2009 4:53:25 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/4/2009 4:58:46 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
But with regard to God pouring out His HS upon people that is not what we are talking about.
Actually, I am talking about God pouring out his spirit to all people making it accessible for us to be reconciled back. God pouring out his spirit to show man that the enemy is not in control of HIS creation but that God is in control of all of it. That he set Jesus over all of it.
I asked this question because certain denominations believe that the Holy Spirit is only accessible AFTER being saved. That the Holy Spirit only draws people elected by God and it was not meant for all mankind. They say that man can only be indwelled first to even ask for forgiveness. To me, these verse certainly say that it was poured out on all flesh and is accessible to all mankind if they will listen and accept Christ as the way. These verses tell me that the Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh convicting us of our sins and calls us to repentance. It is man's choice to say yes or no to it. So, in this way, yes, God did pour out his Spirit on all flesh.
I'm starting to see where you're coming from. But, that's not the context of Joel's statement. Arminians believe in a doctrine called prevenient grace. The doctrine teaches that God draws, reaches out, and convicts all of mankind without regard to the the decision they will ultimately make. I agree with that teaching and that all men have the free ability to accept or reject that invitation. Obviously, not everyone's opportunity is an equally informed one but that is not the issue here.
I do believe that the "indwelling" is unique to believers. For example, Paul says, "Now if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Romans 8:9). Further, in Acts 10-11, Peter seems to be surprised to learn that the HS is available to Gentiles as well as to Jews. If Peter understood the term "all flesh" to involve the conviction of the HS and not the indwelling as well, then his surprise would not make any sense. One of the questions that the early church had to come to terms with in the first 11 chapters of Acts is the question: "Who gets the HS?"
Further, in Acts 19 Paul comes upon some alleged believers who did not have the HS. He asked them if they received the HS since they believed. The interesting fact is that they probably were not genuine believers. If receiving the HS was for all mankind without exclusion, Paul's question would not have made sense.
Look. Hyperbole is not rare in scripture. That's the reason I asked you to take a look at the thread, "Is the Bible 100% literally true?" There are so many idiomatic expressions in the Bible, I cannot count them all. I sometimes make it a practice to make a mental note of the more memorable ones. For example, in Amos 4:6 says in the King James Version "I have given you cleanness of teeth." He's not talking about dental hygiene. He's talking about famine. Some of the newer translations translate it "empty stomachs" for the English reader. It is not literal. God does not always speak in a directly literal manner. He just doesn't. I can go into that in more depth if you don't believe me.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/4/2009 6:17:32 PM
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GrahamCracker
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Here is a comment from another thread regarding the number of times Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother.
quote:
(Mat 18:22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
That would be 490 times.
Is that not hyperbole?
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/4/2009 6:42:16 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I'm starting to see where you're coming from. But, that's not the context of Joel's statement.
Neither is Peter's use of the passage in the context of Joel's statement. Peter is making an analogy and this too is not uncommon in the Scriptures. Now, one might say that is not the way Peter was using the passage. However, the passage states, (Acts 2:16) "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;". Emphasis manuscript terms
Whether the term "this" refers to the actual wonders that were occuring or the quote does not seem to be clear. He could be quoting Joel in an attempt to say that according to the Scriptures this is acceptable behavior and not that this is the one and only outpouring of Adonai's Spirit.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/4/2009 8:09:28 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I'm starting to see where you're coming from. But, that's not the context of Joel's statement.
Neither is Peter's use of the passage in the context of Joel's statement. Peter is making an analogy and this too is not uncommon in the Scriptures. Now, one might say that is not the way Peter was using the passage. However, the passage states, (Acts 2:16) "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;". Emphasis manuscript terms
Whether the term "this" refers to the actual wonders that were occuring or the quote does not seem to be clear. He could be quoting Joel in an attempt to say that according to the Scriptures this is acceptable behavior and not that this is the one and only outpouring of Adonai's Spirit.
I don't have any difficulty accepting Peter as saying the word "this" refers to the behavior. After all, he quotes further scripture mentioning other manifestations such as dreaming. As to whether or not he was making any suggestion that it was the one and only manifestation, I don't think so. There were many manifestations of the HS in the OT, this was just one more.
What gmspice fails to distinguish is that Peter was talking about the baptism of the HS, not the convicting power of the HS and the various workings of God's HS on humanity.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/5/2009 2:32:16 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I'm starting to see where you're coming from. But, that's not the context of Joel's statement.
Neither is Peter's use of the passage in the context of Joel's statement. Peter is making an analogy and this too is not uncommon in the Scriptures. Now, one might say that is not the way Peter was using the passage. However, the passage states, (Acts 2:16) "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;". Emphasis manuscript terms
Whether the term "this" refers to the actual wonders that were occuring or the quote does not seem to be clear. He could be quoting Joel in an attempt to say that according to the Scriptures this is acceptable behavior and not that this is the one and only outpouring of Adonai's Spirit.
I don't have any difficulty accepting Peter as saying the word "this" refers to the behavior. After all, he quotes further scripture mentioning other manifestations such as dreaming. As to whether or not he was making any suggestion that it was the one and only manifestation, I don't think so. There were many manifestations of the HS in the OT, this was just one more.
What gmspice fails to distinguish is that Peter was talking about the baptism of the HS, not the convicting power of the HS and the various workings of God's HS on humanity.
I would agree with you that Adonai's Spirit dwells His people and only influences and sustains others, as He influences and sustains the animals, with the exception that He ahs a greater interest in them because they bare His image. However, I have no problem with the use of the passage in Joel to convince others of Adonai's influence on the nations. Paul refers to this, using a different example when he tells those of Athgens (Acts 17:29-31)
"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." One need not be totally in context when one quotes. Quotes are often used in an exemplary fashion and need not have a direct connection to the issue, as long as they relate to the point being made. Therefore, I believe, it would be appropriate to use Joel's reference to Adonai pouring His Spirit out on all flesh as a justification for Adonai's concern for all of mankind.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/5/2009 7:22:42 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
What gmspice fails to distinguish is that Peter was talking about the baptism of the HS, not the convicting power of the HS and the various workings of God's HS on humanity.
There is no difference. It is the same Holy Spirit that was poured out on all flesh. The same Holy Spirit that convicts the sinner. The same Holy Spirit that indwells us when we become saved.
Just different applications of God's Spirit.
quote:
I'm starting to see where you're coming from. But, that's not the context of Joel's statement. Arminians believe in a doctrine called prevenient grace. The doctrine teaches that God draws, reaches out, and convicts all of mankind without regard to the the decision they will ultimately make. I agree with that teaching and that all men have the free ability to accept or reject that invitation. Obviously, not everyone's opportunity is an equally informed one but that is not the issue here.
I do believe that the "indwelling" is unique to believers. For example, Paul says, "Now if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Romans 8:9). Further, in Acts 10-11, Peter seems to be surprised to learn that the HS is available to Gentiles as well as to Jews. If Peter understood the term "all flesh" to involve the conviction of the HS and not the indwelling as well, then his surprise would not make any sense. One of the questions that the early church had to come to terms with in the first 11 chapters of Acts is the question: "Who gets the HS?"
Further, in Acts 19 Paul comes upon some alleged believers who did not have the HS. He asked them if they received the HS since they believed. The interesting fact is that they probably were not genuine believers. If receiving the HS was for all mankind without exclusion, Paul's question would not have made sense.
To me all of it makes sense because even though the Holy Spirit falls on all flesh, the only ones the Holy Spirit indwells is those who receive him. I believe that once we repent of our sins and believe Jesus, that is when the Holy Spirit indwells us but it has not manifested its attributes through us yet. It is through prayer, study of God's word, GROWTH in the Holy Spirit (or should I say GROWTH IN GOD'S GRACE) that causes his attributes to show up. Then we see the baptism or manifestation of the Holy Spirit indwelled in the believer.
< Message edited by gmcspice -- 11/5/2009 7:29:22 AM >
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/5/2009 4:17:16 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
There is no difference. It is the same Holy Spirit that was poured out on all flesh. The same Holy Spirit that convicts the sinner. The same Holy Spirit that indwells us when we become saved.
Just different applications of God's Spirit.
That different application is exactly what is under discussion.
quote:
To me all of it makes sense because even though the Holy Spirit falls on all flesh, the only ones the Holy Spirit indwells is those who receive him. I believe that once we repent of our sins and believe Jesus, that is when the Holy Spirit indwells us but it has not manifested its attributes through us yet. It is through prayer, study of God's word, GROWTH in the Holy Spirit (or should I say GROWTH IN GOD'S GRACE) that causes his attributes to show up. Then we see the baptism or manifestation of the Holy Spirit indwelled in the believer.
I suppose that is one way of looking at it.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/6/2009 7:29:49 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
That different application is exactly what is under discussion.
Actually I was only talking about the one attribute. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh. This, to me, means all mankind has access to the Holy Spirit. This is the beginning of what we are discussing. In other words the very first application of the Holy Spirit.
But, it is educational for me that you and Blue thread have taken the time to help me with the study on this and I thank both of you very much for it.
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/6/2009 4:25:11 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
That different application is exactly what is under discussion.
Actually I was only talking about the one attribute. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all flesh. This, to me, means all mankind has access to the Holy Spirit. This is the beginning of what we are discussing. In other words the very first application of the Holy Spirit.
But, it is educational for me that you and Blue thread have taken the time to help me with the study on this and I thank both of you very much for it.
You're welcome. Bluethread has made his position clear. Basically, the difference between his interpretation and mine is a hermeneutic one. (Hermeneutics is the science of Bible study.)
I view Bible study as having 3-5 components, depending on the person. Observation is the step dealing with what the text actually says. Interpretation involves what the text meant at the time it was written. Application involves what it means to us. Some people, apparently you and Bluethread seem to blur the difference between application and interpretation more than I do.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/8/2009 8:53:27 AM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
I believe that once we repent of our sins and believe Jesus, that is when the Holy Spirit indwells us but it has not manifested its attributes through us yet. It is through prayer, study of God's word, GROWTH in the Holy Spirit (or should I say GROWTH IN GOD'S GRACE) that causes his attributes to show up. Then we see the baptism or manifestation of the Holy Spirit indwelled in the believer.
I suppose that is one way of looking at it. Indeed, this position appears closely related to the doctrine of entire sanctification.
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/9/2009 8:45:38 AM
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greatdivide46
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So is the general consensus among contributors to this thread that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit is not synonymous with receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit?
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/9/2009 10:22:04 AM
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drmark
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Hopefully this BRIEF ARTICLE will help answer your question, gmc. BTW, "entire sanctification" is specifically mentioned in 1 Thess 5:23!
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/9/2009 10:33:05 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
drmark Date 11/9/2009 10:22:04 AM
Hopefully this BRIEF ARTICLE will help answer your question, gmc. BTW, "entire sanctification" is specifically mentioned in 1 Thess 5:23!
THANK YOU!!!!!
I read the article and it is exactly what my church over seer teaches on.
This does concern us growing in God's grace, correct?
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/9/2009 10:52:43 AM
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drmark
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Sure, how could anyone who has consecrated their entire being to God not want to grow in His grace? That would be "saved, sanctified, and petrified"! 
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/10/2009 3:27:02 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
So is the general consensus among contributors to this thread that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit is not synonymous with receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit?
No, it is not different, it is one example. The indwelling of the Ruach HaChedosh is an outpouring of Adonai's Spirit. To those who are set for distruction the outpouring of Adonai's Spirit is exemplified in the bowls in the revelation to John. The outpouring of the Ruach HaChedosh is an awesome thing. However, whether it is gloriously awesome or terribly awesome depends on ones prospective.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/10/2009 3:39:27 AM >
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RE: All flesh or only the saved - 11/10/2009 7:31:29 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
No, it is not different, it is one example. The indwelling of the Ruach HaChedosh is an outpouring of Adonai's Spirit. To those who are set for distruction the outpouring of Adonai's Spirit is exemplified in the bowls in the revelation to John. The outpouring of the Ruach HaChedosh is an awesome thing. However, whether it is gloriously awesome or terribly awesome depends on ones prospective.
I never thought about this perspective before but it is true. It can be an awesome thing or it can be a fearful thing. Awesome in the fact that he saves!
Fearful in the fact that those that don't accept it, are bound for destruction.
Man, I didn't realize this subject has so many aspects to it. WOW!
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