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Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 11:27:11 AM
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CommonSense549
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And if so, for what reasons?
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 11:40:23 AM
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RJR_fan
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Since I am not smarter than God, I have to say, yes.
Some crimes require the death penalty. A godly social order would have no human zoos (penitentiaries).
Capital punishment should be imposed by the responsible men of the community, not by hooded hirelings. After all, every husband, father, and elder has a stake in a stable community, in safe streets.
Stones are cheap, readily available, and remind us of The Stone, Jesus, who destroys the evil in our own lives.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 11:48:41 AM
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deermousie
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I believe God said to do it in Old Testament times (to keep evil from mulitplying in the land), but a legitimate death penalty is now the business of the state, not the Church.
The Church can excommunicate, which is far worse: if a person dies unrepentant, it means that God has rejected them for eternity. Execution only hurts in this world.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 12:06:28 PM
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dianetavegia
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Sure but.... Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
quote:
The Church can excommunicate, which is far worse: if a person dies unrepentant, it means that God has rejected them for eternity. Execution only hurts in this world.
John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 12:33:41 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
but a legitimate death penalty is now the business of the state, not the Church.
True, and since Jesus is Lord, not guru, the State as well as the Church needs to honor Him as Lord. The Church is God's ministry of mercy, theState is God's ministry of justice. In a fallen world, we need both. And we have no right to abandon either to the other team.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 1:29:50 PM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dianetavegia
Sure but.... Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
quote:
The Church can excommunicate, which is far worse: if a person dies unrepentant, it means that God has rejected them for eternity. Execution only hurts in this world.
John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
It was the leadership's job to throw the first stone, I think. A person who refuses to repent is probably showing they were never saved in the first place. Remember the parable about the seed thrown on rocky soil.
Well said, RJR_fan.
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 1:43:47 PM
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TMeeks
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
And if so, for what reasons?
The problem with pulling random questions out of the air without a thorough self study is that the question itself demonstrates a false assumption.
In this case, the assumption is that every verse in the Bible is universal in application. And, that is not true.
Those directives relating to stoning had to do with the administration of a theocratic civil society and meant to maintain the purity of that civilization under a Holy God. It was specifically to and for the Nation of Israel.
But, the Nation of Israel is a subset of God's dealing with mankind. In Jesus Christ, the gentiles were included in a new way in a new spiritual kingdom within the greater societies of the world. So, stoning, as a means of purification of a limited civil society specifically set aside as God's nation, is no longer valid or prescribed.
So, the answer is more complex than your questions suggests. Yes, stoning was not only valid but right within the context for which it was prescribed and No, in the context of today's broader Christian expansion into every society.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 10/28/2009 1:50:06 PM >
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 2:33:27 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
So, stoning, as a means of purification of a limited civil society specifically set aside as God's nation, is no longer valid or prescribed.
I think I understand your perspective.
* The Old Testament is God's Word, Emeritus.
* The Old Testament is what God used to believe before He evolved to our level of sophistication.
* Nowadays, we have better ideas on how to deal with criminals than God did, then.
* After all, we are now smarter than God.
An acute listening ear hears echos of Marcion !
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 4:16:19 PM
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Focusing
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I believe it used to happen, the Bible tells us.
But do I believe in stoning someone to death these days?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I know I'm not in a position to do so.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 4:24:35 PM
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agapist
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Excellent post, tmeeks. There is ample scriptural evidence to back up what you say, something I have seen covered over and over but some people do not have the eyes to see. The sarcastic attack of another member is only a sign of immaturity times two: emotional and spiritual.
There is a New Covenant. The law has not been done away with by it but manifests differently: it the law of spirit and grace--and we find in Christ. If Christians were meant to employ the death penalty, Christ would not have stopped the once righteous stoning of an adulturess.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 4:37:33 PM
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KaptZ
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Don't believe in the death penalty so that probably says it all.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 4:48:07 PM
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mollypear
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quote:
If Christians were meant to employ the death penalty, Christ would not have stopped the once righteous stoning of an adulteress.
I like that. Now here's something else to think about. Is capital punishment really necessary in this day and age? Why can't we just lock up the people who break the laws? Why do we have to kill them?
My perspective: Capital punishment isn't something a Christian should support.
Aren't we supposed to forgive, and not murder?
Besides, what if the person in prison repented and turned to Christ? Do they still need to die for what they did? Why can't they be pardoned? And if not pardoned, then at the very most they should spend the rest of their life in prison instead of being killed!
I don't believe the God of second chances, the God of the New Testament, would agree with someone being killed for breaking the law. Jesus paid for all, including those murderers, rapists, whatever! Why is the government playing the part of God? Only He should decide who lives or dies!
But I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter. I don't believe murder, in any form, belongs in this day and age, because a new covenant was made because of Jesus' sacrifice.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 5:08:40 PM
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McFatty
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Since the fulfillment of the Law, capital punishment isn't the way to go about things. God Himself stopped the execution of a woman who, under the Law, should have been executed. That should tell us something! It seems like capital punishment is more about human vengeance than Godly justice anymore.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 5:14:33 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Since the fulfillment of the Law, capital punishment isn't the way to go about things. God Himself stopped the execution of a woman who, under the Law, should have been executed. That should tell us something! It seems like capital punishment is more about human vengeance than Godly justice anymore.
It's not so much about vengence as justice because of the value of innocent human life made in the image of God.
But one thing is sure, sociopaths like Ted Bundy will never escape again to rape & murder women for the sheer thrill of it once they have been executed.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/28/2009 8:36:03 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
God Himself stopped the execution of a woman who, under the Law, should have been executed.
Actually, Jesus was revealing the sin in the hearts of those who wanted to stone the woman. He did not stop the execution....He invited the sinless one to commence...and since He was the only sinless one there, he told the woman to GO AND SIN NO MORE.
There are always consequences for sin. Vengeance? No. Justice. That is why Jesus had to die for our sins...God's justice required a penalty for sin. When a murderer receives what he/she gave out, that is not revenge. I am not saying I am for or against...I am merely pointing out the factor for stoning was always sin...and stoning was required by God, as justice for certain sins.
I think the question is void of the context in which stoning occured or was required....and as far as the 'why' goes...there could only be one reason...God required it. He no longer does. However the penalty for sin is still death....Jesus on our behalf if we have accepted Him as our substitute, or our own eternal damnation if we reject God's provision.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 10/28/2009 8:42:18 PM >
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/29/2009 8:23:23 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Is capital punishment really necessary in this day and age? Why can't we just lock up the people who break the laws? Why do we have to kill them?
Do we still have rapists in this day and age?
Do we still have murderers in this day and age?
Do we still have career criminals in this day and age?
Are we smarter in this day and age than God was in His bygone, obsolete, day and age, when it comes to dealing with the evil in the community?
When we treat our fellow human beings, made in God's image, as zoo animals rather than as responsible agents who must make restitution, then we punish the innocent -- the taxpayers -- for the sins of the guilty.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/29/2009 8:46:12 AM
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TMeeks
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
So, stoning, as a means of purification of a limited civil society specifically set aside as God's nation, is no longer valid or prescribed.
I think I understand your perspective.
* The Old Testament is God's Word, Emeritus.
* The Old Testament is what God used to believe before He evolved to our level of sophistication.
* Nowadays, we have better ideas on how to deal with criminals than God did, then.
* After all, we are now smarter than God.
An acute listening ear hears echos of Marcion !
Apparently, you do NOT understand it at all.
Can you find one single verse in the New Testament that tells gentile believers that they should carry forward stoning. In fact, can you find a single verse or word from Jesus Christ in ANY book in the New Testament that endorses stoning in this new Church Age.
Or, perhaps this thought is something you should ponder. Wasn't the last mention of stoning in the New Testament the stoning of Stephen? That certainly enforces the idea that we should continue that practice all right!!!! 
We fundamentally differ on the nature of Old Testament (Israel) and New Testament (Church Age). From previous messages, you seem to see the church as taking over the place of Israel while I believe that there is a distinct Church age that will end and the promises to Israel as a nation will be picked up and fulfilled. One of the artifacts of your position is that it tends to create a Taliban-like, distorted politico-christianity.
Are you really ready to cast the first stone? It appears so.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/29/2009 8:55:29 AM
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TMeeks
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Since the fulfillment of the Law, capital punishment isn't the way to go about things. God Himself stopped the execution of a woman who, under the Law, should have been executed. That should tell us something! It seems like capital punishment is more about human vengeance than Godly justice anymore.
I would not go as far as you go. But, I DO believe that most Christians really don't understand the FULL BIBLICAL teachings. They only focus on the fact that God did call for Capital Punishment in certain cases.
Where is the teaching of the "Cities of Refuge"? Numbers 35
Where is the teaching requiring "MULTIPLE Witnesses"? Numbers 35:30 and Deuteronomy 17:6
When we say that we are for a civil action based on the Word of God, we should be VERY careful that we FULLY rely on the Word of God. Acting on ONE verse and completely ignoring others is an abomination.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/29/2009 9:04:25 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
When we say that we are for a civil action based on the Word of God, we should be VERY careful that we FULLY rely on the Word of God. Acting on ONE verse and completely ignoring others is an abomination.
Exactly.
It takes a great deal of time, patience, and wisdom to tease apart the ceremonial laws -- now fulfilled in Christ -- from the civil laws -- God's eternally binding standards for civic order. Anglo-American common law is, in fact, 1500 years of that kind of careful reflection and application. The old "three-time loser" law, for example, derives from the "rebellious son" law. Every city would be far happier if it could eliminate the tiny handful of career criminals who commit most of the burglaries, assaults, etc.
Imagine how much drunk driving fatalities would nosedive if we applied the law concerning the dangerous ox. The man who causes his neighbor's death by callously, and deliberatly, putting his neighbor at risk is a murderer, and should be treated like one.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/29/2009 3:25:13 PM
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agapist
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Dividing the law into three parts is not difficult and it is also not correct. Those divisions are a useful study tool only and not Biblical.
Focusing on the law gets us nowhere; it is only consciousness of sin. We have a New Covenant. "For he himself is our grace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by ABOLISHING in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations."
There are those who desperately need this support and certainty and will dance around this point with alternative interpretations but they are lost to legalism.
Grace is now our authoritaive guidance. We do not need a rule book or even a set of guidelines for our actions. We live by faith alone, so that we might receive the promise of the spirit.
This divide between "law" and "love" has been the biggest dividing line of the Church, and it is growing with entrenched conservatism.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/29/2009 4:36:28 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
It was the leadership's job to throw the first stone, I think.
Not always so. For example, in the case of catching someone in adultery, those who threw the first stones were those that caught the individual in the act.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/29/2009 4:40:56 PM
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rawr.ben
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
If Christians were meant to employ the death penalty, Christ would not have stopped the once righteous stoning of an adulturess.
I think you have a misunderstanding of how and why Yeshua stopped the stoning. Allow me to quote myself from another thread:
quote:
The Torah demands that a woman caught in adultery be stoned. Those who brought her forward were correct in that. However, we see that the story did not go that way. Did Christ break the Torah (which would be a sin!)?
Some say that Christ did away with the old law and favored a new law of love and mercy here. But Yeshua said that he did not come to do away with the Torah of Moses. There is something else going on here.
We are told that the religious leaders were trying to use the question as a trap in order to have some basis of accusing Yeshua, when they asked, "What then do you say?"
The trap was simple: no matter how He answered, they would have grounds of accusation against him. If Christ had said "stone her" they would have accused him before the Romans because the Romans had taken away the power of corporal punishment from the Sanhedrin. The Jewish court no longer had the legal authority to stone anyone (also why they needed Pilate to to execute Yeshua cf. John 18:31).
On the other hand, if he were to say, "show her love and let her go," they could have accused him of advocating lawlessness, and sanctioning adultery.
What then was it that happened in this story?
The Torah says that every allegation must be established by two eyewitnesses. If there were no eyewitnesses, the case had to be dropped, even if the person was obviously guilty. Without reliable eyewitnesses, God's Word did not allow a trial or punishment to take place.
Yeshua employed this type of approach. He did not defend the woman, we really was guilty, nor did he bend the law (which does not bend). Instead, he disqualified the witnesses, in a supernatural way, when he said "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
According to the Torah, only qualified eyewitnesses could cast the first stones. Each man present was supernaturally conscience stricken as they went out, one by one, until the court was empty.
Without witnesses, there is no trial, and without witnesses, the woman must go free. Yeshua asked her, "Where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
Through a legal technicality, He freed her from the punishment of the Torah. He used the Torah commandments to save the woman. The Torah said there must be two witnesses. By the time He was done, there were no witnesses left. The woman was saved by the Torah (though, not without genuine love from Yeshua, as can clearly be seen in the conversation that then took place between them).
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/29/2009 4:41:20 PM
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TMeeks
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
When we say that we are for a civil action based on the Word of God, we should be VERY careful that we FULLY rely on the Word of God. Acting on ONE verse and completely ignoring others is an abomination.
Exactly.
It takes a great deal of time, patience, and wisdom to tease apart the ceremonial laws -- now fulfilled in Christ -- from the civil laws -- God's eternally binding standards for civic order. Anglo-American common law is, in fact, 1500 years of that kind of careful reflection and application. The old "three-time loser" law, for example, derives from the "rebellious son" law. Every city would be far happier if it could eliminate the tiny handful of career criminals who commit most of the burglaries, assaults, etc.
Imagine how much drunk driving fatalities would nosedive if we applied the law concerning the dangerous ox. The man who causes his neighbor's death by callously, and deliberatly, putting his neighbor at risk is a murderer, and should be treated like one.
So, I'm assuming you ARE for stoning and would consider that an 'eternally binding standard for civil order'. The original question is pretty straighforward.
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RE: Do any of you believe in stoning? - 10/29/2009 4:46:37 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2718
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Apparently, you do NOT understand it at all.
Can you find one single verse in the New Testament that tells gentile believers that they should carry forward stoning. In fact, can you find a single verse or word from Jesus Christ in ANY book in the New Testament that endorses stoning in this new Church Age.
Actually, the reason is, the Roman gov't took away the power of the Sanhedrin to judge and then rule in favor of capital punishment. And today, we do not have a Sanhedrin.
Without judges, there can be no judgment, and thus, no stoning.
quote:
Or, perhaps this thought is something you should ponder. Wasn't the last mention of stoning in the New Testament the stoning of Stephen? That certainly enforces the idea that we should continue that practice all right!!!!
Don't pagans and cults pray? Should we stop that practice, too?
quote:
We fundamentally differ on the nature of Old Testament (Israel) and New Testament (Church Age).
We are grafted into Israel.
quote:
Are you really ready to cast the first stone? It appears so.
Not without judges. Casting stones was not a free-for-all.
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rawr.ben
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