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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/3/2009 8:26:37 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
Any scenario you imagine where the need for homocidal violence seems the only answer is of no value compared to the actual power of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit has acted violently.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/3/2009 8:39:58 PM
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agapist
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Harvie, I am sorry if my views upset you. Homicide does not mean murderer it means "one person killing another," for whatever reason.
After your comments I took the time to re-read the thread.
I simply stated my view of the Gospel.
If you take the time to re-read this thread, you will see where my character and motives were attacked and I did not retaliate.
You will also see where I did not say anyone was wrong but where you and others said I was wrong.
My view was discredited but at no time did I discredit other views.
I hope you will also notice that I never even said patriotism was a sin but merely outlined how I believed it could be a danger to living a life fully dedicated to God.
As you felt moved to quote, "Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs in this area or denying that he or she is a christian is unacceptable." I agree.
If you are assured by the Holy Spirit that your view is in keeping with truth, my view does not and cannot impugn your patriotism. We differ in our perspective and that is all.
On the night before Martin Luther King died, he said, "It is no longer a question of violence or nonviolence but of nonviolence or nonexistence."
I share that sentiment.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/4/2009 2:05:31 AM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
That was not mockery, manimal. You should know me better than that, but if you think that improves your position by accusing me of sacrilege then have at it my friend. I am getting used to such things by a few of the members.
Spare me the martyrdom act. You're a big boy, and I know you can handle a little criticism. If not, then maybe this whole internet thing isn't for you?
Now, back to the subject at hand:
quote:
Following your logic, I said, then such an icon is not off the mark.
There is no love in violence. We have been through this before. The nature of love and the nature of God do not change for circumstances. The nature of love, as described in Scripture, does NO HARM to its neighbor. How can you reconcile violence with that very plain statement. There is no hedge room. If there is, then, for the third time, tell me where.
Your claim about Scripture claiming that love "does NO HARM" is false. I already provided many examples of God doing violence and much physical harm. If God is love, what does that tell you?
Agapist, there was an incident this week in Richmond, VA in which a 15-yr-old high school girl was gang raped in front of her high school after homecoming by at least 10 guys while a crowd stood around watching and taking pictures and videos with their cell phones.
You know what LOVE does in that situation? LOVE goes in busting skulls and breaking bones at the risk of personal injury to rescue that girl. LOVE doesn't stand back wringing hands and offering up candy-corn unicorn rainbow prayers. THAT position (YOUR position, from the things you write) is just as vile, disgusting, pathetic and unbiblical as the people who stood around taking pictures and videos. Now, if you want to pray WHILE you are dropping haymakers on some evil fools, that would be ideal.
So tell me, what does agapist do when a 15-year-old girl is getting gang raped in front of him?
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/4/2009 2:09:49 AM
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ManimalX
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P.S. I got so angry thinking about that poor girl getting raped while a bunch of yellow-bellied cowardly schmucks stood around watching that I forgot to tie everything back into the topic of "patriotism".
When your country is the one jumping into the fray and "keeping a girl from getting gang-raped" on a national level (aka, fighting evil and injustice) as the USA tends to do, then patriotism is the complete opposite of sin, it is blessed.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/4/2009 8:15:16 AM
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SonInMe1
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faith without works is dead.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/4/2009 4:19:09 PM
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agapist
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You answered what love would do, manimal: without any though of self or of evil toward the perceived "enemy" love would go to that young girl's aid. Also, we are to protect our loved ones as it says in the Scripture.
The point I am trying to make is that this is not God condoning violence. That the world has violence and lives by violence is not God's seal of approval on violence. It is not a legal point. Nonviolence is a state of perfect humility and has a power as great as prayer. It is the peace of the lord. We are to be centered there. In that position is the power of God and the full courage of truth. "Works" are a natural product of it, and these works are for all to see the love of God in the believer.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/4/2009 4:34:36 PM
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agapist
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Patriotism can lead to a blind eye, for it professes zeal for the interest of the state. It is not that God's kingdom should come first; that is the kingdom in which we are to live and move and have our being. That is our true citizenship. Our perspective is from heaven, not worldly interests.
I am not going into the specific of the Iraq war. Yet it and all the actions of any government are not to be viewed from what is best for them but what is right in the eyes of God. The first question when a soldier is ordered to a campaign is not, "When does my plane leave, sir?" but "Is this your will, father?" And we look, we study, with open heart and mind guided by the Holy Spirit at the action taken by the state. If it is killing those of another country, our neighbors in the eyes of God, for purely economic reasons, is that okay for a Christian.
Patriotism has a tendency to love the ideal of a country and not the reality. Someone tells a patriot some disenheartening facts about that country's history and exposes some disturbing facts about that country's interest in its latest war, the patriot is quick ism the other and dismiss them.
Unflattering comments about America do not come just from Jihad terriorist or commies or liberals but from people who may have the country's best interest at heart or Christians who are concerned about God's truth.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/4/2009 7:30:45 PM
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agapist
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Harvie, I never said patriotism was a sin. I made that clear in an earlier post.
But can I ask if you mean by patriotism that you just trust our government to do the right thing, no questions asked. Is it "My country right or wrong?" What do you mean by patriotism, in your terms?
Let me share the thoughts of a Baptist minister writing in New Review on the subject of government and war:
"Christianity requires us to seek to amend the condition of man. But war cannot do this. The world is no better for all the wars of five thousand years. Christianity, if it prevailed, would make earth a paradise. War, where it prevails, makes it a slaughter-house, a den of thieves, a brothel, a hell. Christianity cancels the law of retaliation. War is based upon that very principle. Christianity i the remedy for all human woes. War produces every human woe.
The causes of war, as well as war itself, are contrary to the Gospel. It originates in the worse passions and the worst aims. We may always trace it to the thirst of revenge, of acquisition of territory, the monopoly of commerce, the quarrel of kings, the intrigues of ministers, the coercion of religious opinion, or some other source equally culpable; but never has any war, devised by man, been founded on holy tempers and Christian principles.
It should be remembered, that in no case, even under the Old Testament, was war appointed to decide doubtful decisions or to settle quarrels, but to inflict national punishment. They were intended, as are pestilence and famine, to chastise guilty nations of provoking God. Such is never the pretext for modern war; and if it were, it would require divine authority..."
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/4/2009 9:17:34 PM
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SonInMe1
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Has there been anyone in this thread that said we should place the country before God?
I would wager, most of us who are patriotic are so because of our relationship with God. As with everything a christian does, God comes first and THEN, we act.
As I said before, faith without deeds is dead.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/4/2009 10:43:57 PM
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agapist
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soninme, perhaps you have not been following the whole thread. The topic is about patriotism. Patriotism is love of country and having zeal in its support and for its interest. Such an allegiance is, to me, irreconcilable with our allegiance to the kingdom of God. Such trust and devotion is for God alone. Through Him we will act in the best interest of our neighbors, which may or may not coincide with the best interest of the government. Who is our neighbor? The kingdom of God has no borders: the world is our neighbor.
We are to submit to the governing authority--where it does not violate conscience, the ONE RULE: Love your neighbor as Christ loved you. That's our constitution. Total allegiance belongs to God and God's law, not to the state that exists for God's ends.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 1:18:23 AM
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agapist
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Our zeal is to be full time and undivided for the kingdom of heaven. Our love of God, and like unto it our love of others, is to be fulltime and undivided.
There are people in the world who we know need Jesus but who also do not like America, and whether you care to believe it or not, some have good cause for their attitude. What are we to stand for? What are we to show them? What are we to favor? Our love is to be universal, not centered on a country.
"Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and mutual understanding."
If we consider, as many have presented here, first that patriotism is an acceptable attitude for a Christian in America, then all Christian citizens in every country--Afghanistan, Iran, China, Russia, and so forth--should have the same love and zeal for their country. It is generic in nature.
But patriotism is extremely self-centered; it has to be. Love of a country comes from thinking it the best and it is right, or how else can we give of our zeal and sometimes our lives. Do you see the problem that causes? It naturally causes separation and divisions amongst the people of the world
How do you think every country gets people to fight for their interests?
Is patriotism a standard God gave His people? Is it of faith?
Patiotism is temporal, a worldly, value. It is not of the character of God, as are the fruit of the spirit. Your American patriotism does not bring people together, or to God, when you wave the flag in some countries or support with zeal what America is doing in that country. If you hide it there, if you would not wave the flag there, it tells you about the character of patriotism.
It has no eternal quality to it. It will be useless, absurd, in heaven.
It is not something we are to do out of faith in God. It cannot be done out of faith in God.
We are no respecter of persons, and a bias for the American people misses that mark. Our love, again, has no borders; it is a universal love.
In Romans14:19-23 is analagous
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 7:46:38 AM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
The topic is about patriotism
Yes it is and it is not compartmentalized as you propose. Its not either love God or country. Its love God first and from that, love your country.
It is very doable, in fact the ONLY way you are impeded from being a patriot is if your nation is evil, which I believe, is your premise.
quote:
Patriotism is love of country and having zeal in its support and for its interest.
..and once again there is nothing in the bible that condemns this...unless the country is evil.
quote:
Through Him we will act in the best interest of our neighbors, which may or may not coincide with the best interest of the government.
You will have to show me where the USA is bent on or founded on destroying its neighbors. Yes, we have made mistakes but criticism of those events are usually with 20/20 hindsight without taking into account the information behind our making those decisions in the first place.
quote:
We are to submit to the governing authority--where it does not violate conscience
Somewhat accurate...IF...that conscience is ruled by the Holy Spirit.
quote:
the ONE RULE: Love your neighbor as Christ loved you. That's our constitution.
Please show me one instance of the USA's constitution that disagrees with this biblical principle.
quote:
Our zeal is to be full time and undivided for the kingdom of heaven. Our love of God, and like unto it our love of others, is to be fulltime and undivided.
Biblically inaccurate. God must be first, but that does not mean we cannot love anyone or anything else. I can love a good hot dog, and not make it an idol. I can love my wife and not make her an idol. I can love my country and not make it an idol.
Once again, your premise that patriotism is not christian can only have substance if the patriotism is for a country based in evil/biblical disagreement.
If you propose the USA is evil because of the mistakes it has made and unworthy of our patriotism/support, then I propose it is impossible to love anything or anyone but God because God is the only perfect being.
quote:
There are people in the world who we know need Jesus but who also do not like America, and whether you care to believe it or not, some have good cause for their attitude.
...and many do not like Jesus either. Not to ever equate Jesus with the USA, but to be disliked OFTEN means you ae doing the right thing.
I will add, the above statement supports my premise that you dislike the USA and consider it evil.
quote:
then all Christian citizens in every country--Afghanistan, Iran, China, Russia, and so forth--should have the same love and zeal for their country.
What better way would these people have to improve something they care about? If they care about their country and see it not acting in a biblical way, then christians should seek to change that. Caring about your country when it is anti-christian would be a great incentive to influence toward a christian based ideology.
quote:
But patriotism is extremely self-centered; it has to be.
Maybe we have a definition problem here. Maybe its not patriotism, which can be a disagreement with your country as well as support for it, but, nationalism which is blind following of a country no matter what.
< Message edited by SonInMe1 -- 11/5/2009 7:55:19 AM >
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 8:04:19 AM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Our zeal is to be full time and undivided for the kingdom of heaven. Our love of God, and like unto it our love of others, is to be fulltime and undivided.
The kingdom of heaven has already been inaugurated, and it is here and now. I don't say this in any a/pre/post millennial sense, rather just the fact that Jesus DID inaugurate His kingdom when He was here.
That is why we are to be "salt and light" and "cities on a hill", to attract folks to the very present and active Jesus who has been working through His Holy Spirit on Earth since He was sent nearly 2,000 years ago.
We need to be about the business of being the "aroma of CHrist" to the world, and not in a candy-corn unicorn rainbow my-my-my sweet bye-and-bye sense.
quote:
There are people in the world who we know need Jesus but who also do not like America, and whether you care to believe it or not, some have good cause for their attitude. What are we to stand for? What are we to show them? What are we to favor? Our love is to be universal, not centered on a country.
"Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and mutual understanding."
Most of the people who "hate" the USA do so for religious reasons, from the Muslim to the Atheist to the Hindu. They do so with good reason, as the USA has been the base of operations from which the gospel has gone into the world in nearly every language.
quote:
If we consider, as many have presented here, first that patriotism is an acceptable attitude for a Christian in America, then all Christian citizens in every country--Afghanistan, Iran, China, Russia, and so forth--should have the same love and zeal for their country. It is generic in nature.
That is crass relativism worthy of an God-hating Atheist Skeptic. You are making an ignorant broad assumption that all nations stand for the same principles and are all basically "the same".
They are not.
There is nothing wrong with exercising some basic 101 level discernment and concluding that, "Hmm, this country stands for sewing closed the genitals of females. I am going to go ahead and say that is WRONG and therefore anyone who has "patriotism" for that country is WRONG."
Or, "Hmm... one of the core principles of that country is that Jewish people are gutter rats and their race should be killed wherever they are found by whatever means available. I am going to go ahead and say that is WRONG, and therefore anyone who has "patriotism" for that country is WRONG."
Or, "Hmm... that nation believes its Kings are gods on Earth and they starve their citizens to death. I am going to go ahead and say that is WRONG and therefore anyone who has "patriotism" for that country is WRONG."
Of course, pacifism doesn't allow you to make a moral stance like that, does it? Wouldn't want to hurt anybody's feelings in the land of candy-corn unicorns and rainbows!
quote:
But patriotism is extremely self-centered; it has to be.
WRONG... again. Patriotism can swing to any extreme of wrong or right; it is NOT necessarily "self-centered". That is your opinion and one based upon nothing factual, just you trying to impose your personal agenda on the universe.
quote:
Love of a country comes from thinking it the best and it is right, or how else can we give of our zeal and sometimes our lives
So, is it impossible for a nation to promote things that are "best and right", such as justice, mercy, and charity?
The answer is "no", since there are actually several nations that promote such Godly, biblical principles. The USA happens to do so very well.
quote:
Do you see the problem that causes? It naturally causes separation and divisions amongst the people of the world. How do you think every country gets people to fight for their interests?
The fact that SOME nations have deceived SOME citizens that they should stand and fight for ungodly, evil agendas, and thus being WRONG, doesn't negate the possibility of another nation and its citizens standing and fighting for what is godly and righteous and thus being RIGHT.
That is like saying, "Well, Jack the Ripper killed people, therefore all English citizens of all time are evil", or, "Well, Adolf Hitler massacred Jews, therefore all German citizens of all time are evil". It simply doesn't work logically, spiritually, or any other way.
Poppycock.
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Patiotism is temporal, a worldly, value. It is not of the character of God, as are the fruit of the spirit.
Wrong. Sorry, agapist, but I won't let you get away with your asinine, illogical proclamations that misrepresent what the Bible teaches. If a nation stands for godly principles such as the rule of law, mercy, compassion, the defense of the orphan, the defense of the widow, the defense of the downtrodden, justice in general and thus LOVE (since these are all love actions), then patriotism for such a nation is of an eternal value with eternal consequences.
quote:
Your American patriotism does not bring people together, or to God, when you wave the flag in some countries or support with zeal what America is doing in that country. If you hide it there, if you would not wave the flag there, it tells you about the character of patriotism.
It has no eternal quality to it. It will be useless, absurd, in heaven.
That is ridiculous, as my last point demonstrated. Where the USA has defended freedom and liberty, the gospel message has historically flourished, or at least established a solid foundation.
No, that doesn't mean the gospel is impotent in areas of strict persecution. Persecution can be a good growth agent as well.
However, if I followed your logic, that would mean that we should promote persecution wherever possible, which is silly.
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It is not something we are to do out of faith in God. It cannot be done out of faith in God.
Lies from the Pit, yet again. You have absolutely no basis on which to make such a universal claim, except for your own personal philosophy of pacifism that is fine for you as an individual, but is not taught in Scripture. How dare you assume to speak for God, falsely rebuking His saints around the world for supporting just actions of just governments.
quote:
We are no respecter of persons, and a bias for the American people misses that mark. Our love, again, has no borders; it is a universal love.
In Romans14:19-23 is analagous
Your cross-reference of "respecters of persons" has nearly nothing to do with the subject at hand, and is just another instance of you twisting Scripture to fit the mold of your personal pacifistic philosophies.
It is possible for nation to stand for godly, biblical principles, and it is ok to support the endeavors of such a nation.
P.S.
I am still waiting for you to rebuke God for using violence to resolve conflicts throughout both Old and New Testament history, since you claim the use of violence to resolve conflict is wrong. I have and others have demonstrated in this thread and many others that God has no problem being violent when necessary.
God is love, and God has used violence a LOT, so what is it going to be, agapist? Your credibility is on the line: are you going to be consistent with your revered pacifistic philosophies and rebuke God for being such a mean, nasty, violent Dude, or are you going to admit that your pacifistic philosophies are personal convictions and not biblical universal truths?
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 11/5/2009 8:20:15 AM >
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 8:46:46 AM
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Qtman
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Yep. Every soldier I burried was self centered. Bull. They gave their lifes for other people not for themsleves.
BTW the topic of the thread is not about patriotism it is about "Is patriotism a sin?"
Since you, agapist, started the thread I thought you would know that.
< Message edited by Qtman -- 11/5/2009 8:54:45 AM >
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 11:23:51 AM
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agapist
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qtman, outlining the character and problems with patriotism, in my view, as it pertains to representing Christ on earth is keeping with the topic. How else would you suggest coming to an informed decision?
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 11:36:18 AM
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Qtman
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Friend I was simply responding to other posts. One said it is not a sin. You responded by saying you had never said it was a sin. In fact I don't think you have as of yet called it a sin. But, in creating and naming the thread you did as the question Is it a sin. So don't be surprised when someone like me say no it is not a sin. We are merely giving our answer to your question.
< Message edited by Qtman -- 11/5/2009 11:42:23 AM >
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 7:18:14 PM
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agapist
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I find it funny but not funny ha-ha that I kept believing my next post would finally clarify the point I have been trying to make, and every well-versed and reasonable Christian member would go, "Oh, why didn't you say that to being with. Sure, of course!"
Instead of edifying, my apparent poor writing skills have intensified the irritation and antagonism in a number of people. The vitriolic in the most recent threads are testimony to my inadequacies of expression, for if I could make the point plain, I still feel certain it would gain agreement.
I have been the cause for others stumbling, and for that I deeply apologize and ask forgiveness. It was irresponsible on my part not to realize, foresee, that such a subject would tap deep emotional roots.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 10:42:38 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
Agapist ...
I "get" your point; I just don't agree with it.
As you've surmised, this is a topic that "taps deep emotional roots."
Be well.
Don't worry too much about it. This is agapist's general modus operandi. He asserts a bunch of pacifistic philosophy, insists that it is biblical, has his points soundly refuted with biblical evidence, gets his feelings hurt, blames it on his "poor communication" sills, and then ceases discussion.
He doesn't understand that he communicates his points just fine. His readers "get" his point, and some are willing and able to refute it on biblical grounds. There is no confusion.
AGAPIST:
I realize you are probably ignoring me, but I'm going to press the point I asked in my last post:
I am still waiting for you to rebuke God for using violence to resolve conflicts throughout both Old and New Testament history, since you claim the use of violence to resolve conflict is wrong. I have and others have demonstrated in this thread and many others that God has no problem being violent when necessary.
God is love, and God has used violence a LOT, so what is it going to be, agapist? Your credibility is on the line: are you going to be consistent with your revered pacifistic philosophies and rebuke God for being such a mean, nasty, violent Dude, or are you going to admit that your pacifistic philosophies are personal convictions and not biblical universal truths?
agapist: All it takes for you to get out of this situation you've created for yourself is to admit that pacifism is your personal conviction, and not a universal Christian command.
Pacifism is an example of your freedom in Christ, brother, and I hope it continues to serve you well. Pacifism is not a biblical mandate, and the rest of us will likewise enjoy our freedom in Christ.
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 11/5/2009 10:51:27 PM >
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 11:06:44 PM
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agapeflight
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The highest love we can have for our country is to preach the gospel to it.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/5/2009 11:18:26 PM
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agapist
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When I first started this thread, I anticipated little, if any, disagreement with my position once I shared it. I waited for someone to ask, "What patriotism: for country or the kingdom of God?" No one did.
For me, the point was immaculately clear-cut: no middleground. no complexities. no if, ands, or buts. Our one allegiance is to be to the kingdom of God. I believed that my view had more than adequate backup from Scripture, yet that was not my primary concern or specifically the point I was attempting to make; there is sufficient support Scripturally for a more moderate view than mine.
My point was a safeguard, a position where I could not be pulled off the mark. A stance meant to maintain the straight and narrow.
In my youth, political causes pulled me everywhere, and all in the name of what I thought our country really stood for. The Church seemed to me then to tow the line of strict trust in the government, no questions asked.
And if a Repubilican said it, it echoed God; just say amen.
From the comments of manimalx and others, I see I am held in extremely low esteem. To protest, to say what I shared I shared out of love, and when I apologized I asked forgivness honestly for a lack in myself and not as some ploy to cover my errors on being "unscriptural," will likely fall now on deaf ears. In effect, as it has been announced I am to be totally discredited in view and character, neither a Christian or decent, I have nothing to lose. In my next post, one more attempt to make myself clear...but no attempt to clear myself.
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MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT ~ PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS! 