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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 6:09:31 PM
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agapist
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Governments are founded in violence and maitained by violence and Christ had a message of nonviolence. Although it doesn not seem that way on the surface, patriotism, the love of country, condones and supports violence, which goes directly against the message of Christ.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 6:16:03 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Although it doesn not seem that way on the surface, patriotism, the love of country, condones and supports violence
What if your expression of loving one's country is to peacefully oppose the violent acts of that country?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 6:37:46 PM
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agapist
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What you are speaking of is not love of country but love of the Lord's peace.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 6:42:07 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
What you are speaking of is not love of country but love of the Lord's peace.
You can't tell someone the motivation behind their actions. If an Atheist is on the National Mall marching against American violence, moved to action out of his or her love for the US, then they are not acting out of a love for the Lord's peace.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 7:26:52 PM
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agapist
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You are right, but I am not talking to atheists; I am speaking to Christians. This is a Christian forum. As I observed in another thread, some members seem to take my comments "in general."
Peace only comes through complete faith in Christ, by my understanding. If we want to discuss worldly motivations, then we know they are always part of the fallen consciousness, self-centered at root.
Christians live by inspiration, not motivation; our lives and actions are not self-oriented but other-centered.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/1/2009 9:01:09 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1894
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quote:
We live free from all other powers.
This goes against scripture.
quote:
Look at Christ's life
Who stood before Pilot, innocent, and submitted to Pilot's decision.
quote:
and could not possibly have been the Messiah, because he was not a patriot for the Jewish cause of re-establishing a kingdom on earth.
The disciples thought Jesus was the conquering Messiah of jewish beliefs. The pharesees saw a threat to their power and prestige and spread hatred concerning Jesus. This had nothing to do with patriotism but the seperatist jewish beliefs.
quote:
the acceptance of nonviolence does not come easily
Without soldiers, pacifists can only exist in prison camps.
Jesus never berated the profession of soldier.
God instituted wars. Your pacifist beliefs are not christian.
Freedom is always won by and kept by the spilling of blood. To divorce yourself from this reality of living in this fallen world is burying your head in the sand. Yeah, its easier but since when is the christian way the easier way?
To focus only on one aspect of...anything...and to ignore other aspects of that ideal is called...prejudice. Prejudice is a form of hatred. Calling america evil...is unadulterated prejudice.
You are free to disparage and hate america because...some soldier died so you could.
You can walk the streets not needing to carry a gun because policemen have died to protect you.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/2/2009 2:12:19 AM
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ManimalX
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I'm in a playful, loving mood tonight, so pardon my silliness. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
But first an open question: what is your "real world" orientation?
To a mind grounded primarily in the logic of the temporal and conditioned by a seemingly endless stream of examples in which violence is portrayed as a legitimate means of conflict resolution, the acceptance of nonviolence does not come easily.
I seem to recall this Person named Yahweh using violence as a means of conflict resolution all of the time! Let me think... Goliath, Philistines, Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Jesus on a cross and in a tomb... yeah, pretty sure violence successfully resolved a lot of conflicts! 
I guess Yahweh has a mind "grounded primarily in the logic of the temporal and conditioned by a seemingly endless stream" of violence, eh? 
quote:
The appeal to and use of violence in Christian action increase in exact proportion to the decrease in faith...Unbelief is the true root of the Christian championship of violence."
Yeah, that David sure exhibited real unbelief and the loss of faith when he was clubbing lions and bears dead and zinging rocks at a giant's noggin! 
And that Centurion of whom Jesus said in Matthew 8:10, ""Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith"? I bet he actually used spaghetti noodles instead of a broadsword and led his 100 to dinner parties and not battles! 
Wait... what is that? Hold on a minute, my talking Bible is saying something. What's that you say Bible? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah alright, I'll pass it along.
Sorry, my talking Bible was just reminding me of Hebrews 11:32-34 - "And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets-- who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight."
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Can I hear an Amen.
Only if you recorded yourself saying it  
agapist, bro, your pacifist position is AWESOME.... for YOU! It is simply NOT the life most Christians are biblically expected to lead. You are free in Christ to be a pacifist. Just please stop using your liberty as tyranny over your brothers and sisters!
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/2/2009 11:27:23 AM
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agapist
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Did anyone read how Elisha and how God resolved that conflict? If you want to use the wars of the OT as models for acceptable violence, why not use how war was averted with Elisha? A radical trust in the power of God over the weapons of this world is what Christ called us to do.
If you can in all honesty, without any misgivings, put Jesus behind a machinegun mowing down a line of troops, or put a bayonet in his hands and have him stab and rip open another's gut, or have him in a plane doing an aerial drop of napalm on a village, then my view will not come easily. If this is allowed by God, or even commendable to act for the state in this manner, an icon of Jesus with a rifle as a symbol of faith is not out of order.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/2/2009 11:31:34 AM
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Grace-N-Mercy
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When our zeal for our country is greater than our zeal for God, then yes, I believe it would be sinful. But if we balance our Christian faith with our love and concern for our country, and the people in it, then no, I wouldn't consider it sinful.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/2/2009 12:17:29 PM
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Mollymouser
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
If you can in all honesty, without any misgivings, put Jesus behind a machinegun mowing down a line of troops, or put a bayonet in his hands and have him stab and rip open another's gut, or have him in a plane doing an aerial drop of napalm on a village, then my view will not come easily. If this is allowed by God, or even commendable to act for the state in this manner, an icon of Jesus with a rifle as a symbol of faith is not out of order.
Picture Jesus on His throne, judging all of mankind, and casting the majority of it into the Lake of Fire for eternity.
_____________________________
  MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT ~ PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS!
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/2/2009 4:14:17 PM
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agapist
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Well, harvie, that is an interesting image. Thank you.
Earlier I mentioned the center or ground for how we view reality. Of course for us that center or ground is the mind of Christ.
At the last supper, Jesus said as he was about to offer the bread and wine, "I give you a NEW commandment, that you love one another as I loved you." In Lev19:18 it reads "love your neighbor as yourself." How is this a "new" commandment if it appears to be already stated in the OT?
"When God under the old law told His people to love their neighbor as themselves, Jesus had not yet come down to earth. As God knows how much we love ourselves, He could not ask us to do more. But when Jesus gave His apostles a "new commandment," His commandment, He did not ask only that we should love our neighbor as ourselves but as He loved them..." and He does not command what is impossible.
(Though it does not appear that way now, this is specifically addressing "love of country" or patriotism.)
In Romans, Paul tells us about the nature of this NEW Commandment: "Love does no harm to its neighbor." There are no qualifiers to that statement or amendments, such as war, capital punishment, or even self-defense.
We cannot love our country and love as Jesus loved the whole world because our country, for its worldly interest, will order us to harm our neighbor.
Love is the ground of the mind of Christ. If love is malleable in nature, suspended for a time so that we may harm a neighbor the state deems as an enemy, it is not the eternal love of Christ.
Our conscience is centered in love. There is one type of love--Unconditional--and this manifests in various forms, as the love of neighbor, enemy, wife, child, brother, and so on. This love, as Jesus loved, is no less for one then another, no respecter of persons. It has no hierarchy of importance or special conditions.
If we can make it an exception to do the state's biding and harm our neighbor, then we will have to make the same exceptions for our mate and children because Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
If the state, for some future reason, ordered the death of your child, under the conditions you accepted for war you must comply.
I feel fairly certain that no here could, no matter what the scenario, would follow this dictate from the state.
The love of Jesus is represented by his sacrifice for us. It is wholly a sacrificial love.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/2/2009 6:30:50 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
Did anyone read how Elisha and how God resolved that conflict? If you want to use the wars of the OT as models for acceptable violence, why not use how war was averted with Elisha? A radical trust in the power of God over the weapons of this world is what Christ called us to do.
None of us are dismissing peaceful options. We just don't naively dismiss violent options out of hand.
quote:
If you can in all honesty, without any misgivings, put Jesus behind a machinegun mowing down a line of troops, or put a bayonet in his hands and have him stab and rip open another's gut, or have him in a plane doing an aerial drop of napalm on a village, then my view will not come easily. If this is allowed by God, or even commendable to act for the state in this manner, an icon of Jesus with a rifle as a symbol of faith is not out of order.
""You have feared the sword, and I will bring the sword upon you, declares the Lord God" - Ezekiel 11:8
""I sent among you a pestilence after the manner of Egypt; I killed your young men with the sword, and carried away your horses, and I made the stench of your camp go up into your nostrils; yet you did not return to me," declares the Lord ." - Amos 4:10
"Behold, I am against you, declares the Lord of hosts, and I will burn your chariots in smoke, and the sword shall devour your young lions. I will cut off your prey from the earth, and the voice of your messengers shall no longer be heard." - Nahum 2:13
"Woe to the bloody city, all full of lies and plunder, no end to the prey! 2 The crack of the whip, and rumble of the wheel, galloping horse and bounding chariot! 3 Horsemen charging, flashing sword and glittering spear, hosts of slain, heaps of corpses, dead bodies without end - they stumble over the bodies! 4 And all for the countless whorings of the prostitute,graceful and of deadly charms,who betrays nations with her whorings, and peoples with her charms. 5 Behold, I am against you, declares the Lord of hosts, and will lift up your skirts over your face; and I will make nations look at your nakedness and kingdoms at your shame. 6 I will throw filth at you and treat you with contempt and make you a spectacle." - Nahum 3:1-6
"You also, O Cushites, shall be slain by my sword." - Zephaniah 2:12
"Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth." - Rev 2:16
"6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" - 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-9
"And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great." And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh." - Rev 19:14-21
agapist, your claims about Jesus and the Father are unbiblical. Be very careful trying to stuff God into the box you have created for Him.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/2/2009 6:56:59 PM
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agapist
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Brother manimal, none of what you quoted from the NT disagrees with what I said, which you did not bother to address. Rev2:16 supports what I have saying all along: for the Christian, as for Christ, we do not fight with worldly weapons but the "sword" of the word. 1thes1:6-9 says nothing about harming our neighbors by weapons or disobeying the One Rule of love. Rev19:14-21 again supports what I have been saying: we have the sword of the word, from out of our mouth with complete faith in Christ, as our one weapon.
Give me some NT Scripture that contradicts our Lord's instructions the night before he died, his New Commandment, to love others as he loved us. Show me somewhere in the NT where it amends the "NO HARM to our neighbor"? Or just answer what you think NO HARM to our neighbor means and how that allows for the violence you fight so hard for as a way of life?
I am not putting God in a box. I nowhere told God how to act or what he can or cannot do. I am sharing how I see Christ instructing us. If you consider following his New Commandment strictly, with delight in the lord and joy as your strength being put in a box, I cannot help that.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/2/2009 8:47:30 PM
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ManimalX
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agapist, you are changing the subject. You mocked the image of "Jesus with a rifle", and I just showed how you are mocking the biblical image of Jesus when you do so. Jesus is a violent dude, more deadly than even Chuck Norris.
Why? Because violence against evil is sometimes the loving thing. When a police officer shoots an armed robber, the police officer is acting justly and doing a love act by defending the innocent. When a soldier shoots a suicide bomber before the bomber can reach the marketplace, that soldier is acting justly and doing a love act. When a citizen shoots or pummels the man who is raping a girl in an alley, that citizen is acting justly and doing a love act.
You are putting God in your box when you mock one of the strong images He has communicated of Himself, and you are putting God in your box when you deny that He allows us to use violence justly and lovingly.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/2/2009 9:58:28 PM
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agapist
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That was not mockery, manimal. You should know me better than that, but if you think that improves your position by accusing me of sacrilege then have at it my friend. I am getting used to such things by a few of the members.
Following your logic, I said, then such an icon is not off the mark.
There is no love in violence. We have been through this before. The nature of love and the nature of God do not change for circumstances. The nature of love, as described in Scripture, does NO HARM to its neighbor. How can you reconcile violence with that very plain statement. There is no hedge room. If there is, then, for the third time, tell me where.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/3/2009 7:44:24 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 1894
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Will you protect your children?
If you are watching your kid and someone pulls up and tries to push your kid into a car, what would you do?
If a policeman catches a criminal in the act of a violent crime and its either the victim or the criminal, is it wrong that the cop shoots the criminal?
If you are a patriot and you believe that your country should be...lets say moral...is it wrong to do everything you can to keep it so?
Love is not just emotion. Its action. Its protection. A soldier or policeman without the ability to enforce the laws, will be ineffective and crimes and immorality will rule.
Is that love? This is the real world. There are bad people in it who need to be stopped. Sometimes that means you have to take their lives. It is the real world.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/3/2009 10:38:51 AM
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agapist
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Any scenario you imagine where the need for homocidal violence seems the only answer is of no value compared to the actual power of the Holy Spirit, in any given moment and under all circumstances, to achieve the impossible. God intervenes radically only in response to the radical faithfulness in the command to love others as Christ loved us--relative, neighbor, or enemy. This is the foolishness of God.
You are right, love is not an emotion: it is the mind of Christ and fully expresses his entire will for all that we think, say, and do. No exceptions.
All things are possible in Christ...if our heart is fully centered in his love. Without taking this 'turn', without fully being positioned in this love, what he asks of you will seem not merely impractical but madness. It cannot be examined from the outside by the critical intellect. It is wholly a thing of faith, of total trust in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Violence begats violence. It is the way of the fallen world.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/3/2009 11:05:59 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Violence begats violence. It is the way of the fallen world.
In general, I am in agreement with all you've said in your previous post. And I know that these concluding statements are true.
And on the individual level, person to person, I can live out that loving nonviolence. My husband and I left our last church to end the violence the pastor was perpetrating on me. I would have stayed and continued to endure. My husband chose to remove us and I followed his lead.
But that's on a personal level, agapist. So are you really saying that we should not have a government, have even a country, a collective of people who call themselves by one name such as citizens of the U.S.?
Do you believe we should not individually possess such as land? homes? If we possess nothing, we have nothing to protect?
But what about my neighbor? I can give up my rights. . . what 'rights' do I have anyway? I can lay down my life.
But aren't I called to help and defend the defenseless? I'm not talking about self preservation or protecting my 'rights'. I'm talking about the rights of the other.
How can a group of people ever find themselves fully centered in the love of God this side of eternity?
I see violence as an unjust use of power over another. So violence is always wrong.
But aren't there godly (just) uses of power to protect others?
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 11/3/2009 11:12:01 AM >
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/3/2009 2:05:00 PM
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agapist
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I am making a statement about the heart of the believer and not the state of the world, which will be fallen until Christ establishes his kingdom on earth.
Of course the world is going to have governments and God has established them to maintain a certain amount of law and order and to accomplish his ends.
Are we citizens of any country? No, we are citizens of heaven, strangers in a strange land. We are to stand in the truth and act as ambassadors of heaven, as Jesus did. Did Jesus protect people?
To be in the world but not of it does not lead to the preposterous conclusion that you stick your head in the sand. I still find it hard to believe this subject causes so much confusion. I see it as a given: we are not of the world. To be friends with the world is to be an enemy of God. We do not live by the standards of the world and we do not use the weapons of the world. We are to live our lives as if in heaven--and that is the real world according to Christ.
Force is mistaken for power. There is the power to heal, the power of prayer and of forgiveness, the power of love and of mercy.
Whatever we possess possesses us. It is not ours but a gift from God, all good things are a gift from God.
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/3/2009 2:48:20 PM
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cposey
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Agapist,
I need a little clarification from you. Is it a sin to be in the vocation of soldier, cop, bouncer, government worker?
An honest question, no strings attached
Thanks
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RE: Is patriotism a sin? - 11/3/2009 8:16:50 PM
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agapist
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Harvie, I am sorry if my views upset you. The word homicide means "one person killing another," it does not mean murderer.
If you re-read all the threads, as I just have after your comments, you will see I simply stated how I see the Gospel.
You should also notice that my character and motives have been attacked and I have not retaliated.
I never said you or anyone else was wrong for believing as you did, though most who commented on my views, including you, said I was wrong.
I have never even stated that patriotism is a sin but simply outlined how I saw patriotism as a danger to living a life fully dedicated to God.
Attacking the character or motive of someone who differs in this area or denying that he or she is unchristian is unacceptable, as you pointed out.
I simply spoke what I take as the truth of Jesus Christ. We differ in our view. If you feel assured by the Holy Spirit that your view is in keeping with the Gospel, then my view does not impugn your patriotism.
On the night before Martin Luther King died, he said, "It is not longer a question of violence or nonviolence but of nonviolence or nonexistence."
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