RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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[Poll]
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Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Part 2)
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Total Votes : 51
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(last vote on : 11/21/2009 12:09:27 AM)
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 4:48:01 PM
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tdd1975
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
To choose not to be led by the Spirit is itself a sin. Agree or disagree?
Agreed.
quote:
If it is impossible to sin while being led by the Spirit then it is impossible to stop following the Spirit. You can not use words like impossible and cannot and then turn right around and say it is possible and you can.
This is an interesting philosophical observation, tdd. However, it would only apply if we were speaking of perfect sinlessness (glorified sanctification). However, we are speaking of sinless perfection which is our moment by moment choice to obey.
If being led by the Spirit was a "state of being" or "point" that we "reach" where it is no longer in our capacity to sin, then your logic would make sense. If we live in some state wherein it is truly impossible to sin, then we could never fall away from such a state, or else we were never truly in such a state.
However, being led by the Spirit is NOT a state of being. It is not a "point" that we reach. It is a moment by moment choice. Therefore, while we choose to be led by the Spirit, we can not sin because the Holy Spirit can not lead us to sin. But if we choose to do our own thing, we can (and will) sin.
Only after death will our sanctification be glorified so that we live in a state of being wherein we can not sin. Glorified sanctification is perfect sinlessness which isn't what this thread is about.
My question wasn't philosophical and it is relevant. You are the one who said.
quote:
Regardless to how you define sin, the Bible makes it CLEAR that we are free from it. It, sin, unrighteousness, imperfection, missing the mark, driving 1mph over the speed limit, or what-have-you....we are free from all of it. We are no longer slaves to it. Define it as you may, the Bible says that when on abides in Christ and is led by the Spirit, he can not sin. That means he can not even "miss the mark", if that is how you define sin.
He can not sin.
He can not miss the mark (said this twice)
He can not be imperfect
He can not have unrighteousness
Then you turn around and say that we can choose to "do our own thing" which would definitely be missing the mark. Which is it?
Why do you get to choose which sins are relevant to the debate and which ones aren't?
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As long as we are something, God cannot be all.- Andrew Murray
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 5:32:51 PM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
Why do you get to choose which sins are relevant to the debate and which ones aren't?
Very good question.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 6:23:02 PM
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evry1needsgod
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SC
quote:
Why? What real value are my words anyway?
Um, that's what people call "debate". There would be no debate if everyone just quoted Scripture, because Scripture can not possibly debate against itself.
So one more time, please explain in your own words. Thanks.
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 6:33:17 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1741
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tdd,
quote:
He can not sin.
He can not miss the mark (said this twice)
He can not be imperfect
He can not have unrighteousness
Then you turn around and say that we can choose to "do our own thing" which would definitely be missing the mark. Which is it?
You must understand the difference between sinless perfection and perfected (glorified) sinlessness. The former is what this topic is about. The latter is not, and can only be attained in Glory.
quote:
Why do you get to choose which sins are relevant to the debate and which ones aren't?
I'm not choosing "which sins". Actually, it is you and your crowd who "chooses", because you attempt to separate and label certain sinful actions. I, otoh, look at sin as a single entity. I am free from SIN. Those who voted "no" are the ones attempting to differentiate between which sins are avoidable and which sins are inevitable. They must make such a differentiation for their POV to hold any merit whatsoever.
Paul makes it clear to me that I am free from all sin, and that if I choose to follow the leading by the Spirit, I will not sin (no matter how you define it), and that if I abide in Christ I can not sin (no matter how you define it). So why do YOU get to choose which sins are relevant, tdd?
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 6:34:27 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SoulCrushed
quote:
Why do you get to choose which sins are relevant to the debate and which ones aren't?
Very good question.
The question applies only to you, brother. Do you have an answer?
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 6:40:44 PM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
Um, that's what people call "debate".
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. - 1 Timothy 1:3-5
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 6:48:02 PM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
The question applies only to you, brother.
Because you're now incapable of sin?
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 6:54:17 PM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
I, otoh, look at sin as a single entity. I am free from SIN. Those who voted "no" are the ones attempting to differentiate between which sins are avoidable and which sins are inevitable. They must make such a differentiation for their POV to hold any merit whatsoever.
You know I find it odd that you can't differentiate between sins now that you claim you are free from it/them.
It's kind of the big white elephant in the room: How can you know you're free from sin when you are unable to define what it is in all it's hues and shades?
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 7:34:52 PM
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PeterD
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Hello evry1needsgod
Sir, in Hebrews 6 verse 4-6 which starts by saying, "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Who is the, "those" in verse 4? And why is it impossible in the case of these?
While later in verse 9-12 it says ,"yet in your case" who are these others that God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.
9Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. 10For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. 11And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
PeterD
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"Let us abolish all party names and call ourselves Christians, after him whose teaching we hold . . . I hold, together with the universal church, the one universal teaching of Christ, who is our only master." -Martin Luther
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 8:35:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I am sinless at this moment...
Something 6+ billion others can say at any given moment...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 8:38:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
It seems that those against the possibility wants the other side to prove it's possible by naming people that have, for the lack of a better word, accomplished this. Or worse yet asking one of us if we have sinned.
Actually people would like to see examples of the possibility in action and so far nobody has been or is an example short of speaking of 5 second intervals...
quote:
I know, God knows, and I will confess to you here and now I have sinned. Ihave sinned since I was saved. However, what I have done or not done does not negate what God promised and that was He made a way for us to escape temptation. What Qtman has or has not done proves nothing. Qtman cannot fly a Boeing 767. Does that mean since I can't fly it the thing can't be flown. Of course not. The same is true here. Just because I have not lived a sinless life does not mean it can't be done.
Yes and because the possibility exists doesn't mean it happens...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 11/20/2009 8:44:35 PM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 8:47:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
More or less.
I believe the bible says let your yes be yes, and your no, no...
quote:
But a fleeting thought is not of the heart.
How so? The bible says one will have to account for every word and deed... I don't recall Christ qualify like you have...
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Being tempted is not of the heart. However, if you or others think that a single thought is of the heart then I understand your position on being able to stop sinning. And given that line of thinking you are right, You can't. But I do not believe in that line of thought.
Conveinant... Not sure if the bible support the "gray area" doctrine... No sure how some thoughts are of the heart and some are of the...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 8:51:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
I'm not choosing "which sins". Actually, it is you and your crowd who "chooses", because you attempt to separate and label certain sinful actions.
Actually many of us would like to see a concept of sin that haves even the smallest amount of substance from the sinless after salvaiton crowd. Since it seems it's the last thing you folks wish to talk about...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 9:41:32 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1741
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SoulCrushed
quote:
Um, that's what people call "debate".
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. - 1 Timothy 1:3-5
Ok, I'll just assume you have no answer then. Thanks for your explanation.
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 9:56:21 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1741
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quote:
Hello evry1needsgod
Sir, in Hebrews 6 verse 4-6 which starts by saying, "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Who is the, "those" in verse 4? And why is it impossible in the case of these?
While later in verse 9-12 it says ,"yet in your case" who are these others that God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.
Hi Peter!
Allow me to list the KJV passage. I'm a KJV guy. 
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
From Barnes:
If they shall fall away - literally, “and having fallen away.” “There is no if in the Greek in this place - “having fallen away.” Dr. John P. Wilson. It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it; but the statement is, that “on the supposition that they had fallen away,” it would be impossible to renew them again. It is the same as supposing a case which in fact might never occur:
IOW, it is a hypothetical, something that will never happen. But even if it did happen, such impossibility would be the outcome. "Those" refer to the individuals who would have hypothetically fallen away, and it would be impossible for them to be renewed because they would have made their final choice. However, Scritpure makes it clear (imo) that such a situation is not even possible. A true Christian has been made new, and their nature will never ever desire to "fall away". I guess this all falls into the category of the OSAS debate.
However, it does pertain to this thread in that it supports the sinless perfection POV because a Christian's renewed nature will never truly desire sin. Although their flesh will occasionally battle against their spiritual nature, they can not and will not ever fall away, making it even more possible for them to live the rest of their lives without sin.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 9:57:40 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I am sinless at this moment...
Something 6+ billion others can say at any given moment...
Then the answer to this thread is easily "yes". Thanks SIH!
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 10:03:36 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
I'm not choosing "which sins". Actually, it is you and your crowd who "chooses", because you attempt to separate and label certain sinful actions.
Actually many of us would like to see a concept of sin that haves even the smallest amount of substance from the sinless after salvaiton crowd. Since it seems it's the last thing you folks wish to talk about...
You must cover your eyes with your hands, because we talk about sin in every single post of ours. Pay closer attention, SIH.
I've said repeatedly that when the Bible mentions "will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh", "dead to sin", "no longer servants to sin", "can not sin", I see no such differentiation in Scripture that you attempt to apply to sin in order to make your POV sound remotely intelligent. We are free from ALL of it, SIH. You can define it as you may, but when we are being led by the Spirit He CAN NOT lead us into sin!!!
Are you saying that when we are being led by the Spirit and abiding in Christ, they can still both lead us into sin? Is that your POV SIH? If I have any advice, I would simply ask you to start looking at sin as a whole, as one single entity. That's how God looks at it. Sin is sin. Period.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 11:32:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I am sinless at this moment...
Something 6+ billion others can say at any given moment...
Then the answer to this thread is easily "yes". Thanks SIH!
So being saved has nothing to do with it?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 11:36:40 PM
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Theo-Minor
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
I'm not choosing "which sins". Actually, it is you and your crowd who "chooses", because you attempt to separate and label certain sinful actions.
Actually many of us would like to see a concept of sin that haves even the smallest amount of substance from the sinless after salvaiton crowd. Since it seems it's the last thing you folks wish to talk about...
No offense, but asking about the accomplishment of others has no relevance to the topic. The scriptures still say what they say.
But what you want the "sinless after salvation" crowd to do is admit sinlessness, or name someone else as sinless when it's impossible for them to know if that person is or not. Your whole question and its motives are bait. If they say they don't sin, you call them liars, and proud, and accuse them of sin (even though it's no one's place but God's to do such a thing). If they say they do sin, you try to tear down what the scriptures themselves have to say on the subject because of the actions of an individual person. If they keep their silence, which is the wisest thing to do, whether they've sinned or not, then they are just avoiding your question in your opinion.
So leave off, would ya! Who sinned and when is no one's business but God's.
THIS conversation is about whether or not we can be obedient to God, and the scriptures say yes.
< Message edited by Theo-Minor -- 11/20/2009 11:43:47 PM >
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Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 11:44:46 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6391
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
You must cover your eyes with your hands, because we talk about sin in every single post of ours. Pay closer attention, SIH.
You speak of sin, but not with any substance of what actually is sinful, so I suggest you follow your own adice before giving it out... I have paid enough attention to see folks acting as if sin is no longer of concern since simply claiming to be led be the Spirit is proof enough... I feel like I am being told to ignore the man behind the curtain and focus on the principle alone and never mind there are no real working examples...
quote:
I've said repeatedly that when the Bible mentions "will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh", "dead to sin", "no longer servants to sin", "can not sin", I see no such differentiation in Scripture that you attempt to apply to sin in order to make your POV sound remotely intelligent.
The above pointless mentions of "sin" have little to do with what is sin... Something you wish to avoid, of course... And of course what you see or fail to see has little to with something being "intelligent"...
quote:
We are free from ALL of it, SIH. You can define it as you may, but when we are being led by the Spirit He CAN NOT lead us into sin!!!
Sure.. I could like yourself define in such a way it doesn't happen...Conveinant
quote:
Are you saying that when we are being led by the Spirit and abiding in Christ, they can still both lead us into sin? Is that your POV SIH?
I don't recall ever mentioning that the Spirit leads one into sin... I am pretty sure I have laid that at the feet of man... Since examples are everywhere...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 11/20/2009 11:57:49 PM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/20/2009 11:51:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
No offense, but asking about the accomplishment of others has no relevance to the topic. The scriptures still say what they say.
None taken and take none when I say you are wrong....
quote:
But what you want the "sinless after salvation" crowd to do is admit sinlessness, or name someone else as sinless when it's impossible for them to know if that person is or not. Your whole question and its motives are bait.
quote:
If they say they don't sin, you call them liars, and proud, and accuse them of sin (even though it's no one's place but God's to do such a thing).
You chart flyovers of black helicopters too?
quote:
If they say they do sin, you try to tear down what the scriptures themselves have to say on the subject because of the actions of an individual person. If they keep their silence, which is the wisest thing to do, whether they've sinned or not, then they are just avoiding your question in your opinion.
quote:
So leave off, would ya! Who sinned and when is no one's business but God's.
Really... The bible teaches that sin is simply something between a believer and God...
quote:
THIS conversation is about whether or not we can be obedient to God, and the scriptures say yes.
I have never said it's not possible... I would just like to see a reasonable example... Really not much to ask...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning? (Pa... - 11/21/2009 12:18:20 AM
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agapist
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Of course its possible or Jesus could not have been sinless.
It is hard to believe that there are so many pages on this non-question. I am sure this has been mentioned (I saw absolutely no reason to read this thread) but its worth repeating--and opening your heart to: "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning." 1John3:6 End of story.
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