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ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

I think you've misunderstood me. The change of heart and mind from a nature to sin to a nature of righteousness must be complete (in terms of un-glorified completion). What I mean is that we were a certain way when we were unsaved, but after salvation we are now absolutely and completely different. Repentance is an absolute and complete change of mind. However, if one will inevitably fail, then they are no different than before. That is not repentance, my friend. That's "I'll do as best I can even though the best I can is absolutely nothing".

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ORIGINAL: copybingo

I cannot read the thoughts of the posters, for sure, however some of the "heat" in the postings suggests the thoughts behind some of the posts may be "heated" also. I can almost see the finger wagging going on if this discussion was taking place in person. Would the Lord consider it sin by taking His name in vain when signing off one of these "heated" posts with the words "In Christ" or by the use of His word(a scripture) as a signature? Just asking.

Sarcasm. Thoughts that are less than loving. They drip off the posts. Selfishness as to your position. You're proving by your posts that living a life without sin is impossible. For those lurkers who may not be as "advanced" in doctrinal issues or as far along in their walk, or worse yet, a non-believer checking out the site...what a witness.

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I was thinking the very same thing about you. I understand the logic quite well. I have been following the whole thread. I just didn’t feel compelled to add my two cents until now. And, no I don’t feel like going back and answering every silly claim you and your friends have made as supposedly logical imperatives of what I believe, but I have seen nothing that I couldn’t explain. It is your logic that reaches conclusions about what other people teach without understanding those teachings (which is clear from the way you have distorted them) that sees contradictions where there are none.

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You’re kidding, right? If he is obligated by his love, then he would logically have no choice but to do the same for all people. If he is obligated by his love, then he not only is obligated to grant us salvation, which he didn’t owe us, but also to make it possible to obey his law perfectly in this life, so why didn’t it obligate him to make it possible for all people to live perfectly their whole lives. Why doesn’t it make universalism obligatory? For that matter, why didn’t it obligate him to make it impossible for us to sin. You can’t say that would wrong, since that’s exactly what he’s going to do to us in heaven.

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But love did not “obligate” him to create those trees. You’re taking something God did out of love and claiming he was obligated to do it. I see it differently. I think he could have very lovingly created just one tree and then said, don’t eat. How would that be loving? Simply because it would have given Adam and Eve something great they could do for God. It would have been a privilege to starve to death to show their devotion to God. Instead, God filled the garden with fruit trees, lovingly, but also to show that when they sinned they had no excuse.

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You’re lobbing nice big fat slow pitches for me to hit, aren’t you? How kind.

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First, remember what God said before the flood, “every inclination of man’s heart was evil all the time (Gen 6:5).” He said exactly the same thing after the flood, when the only people alive were the believing family of Noah (Gen 8:21). And then Noah got drunk and Ham laughed at sin. Where was God’s obligation to make the one family that his love spared lovingly perfect?

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You do not do what you want. He must be speaking to believers who still have a sinful nature.

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And believing that becoming sinless is not possible on earth will not prevent that person from striving to rid himself of something he detests.

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ORIGINAL: qalel



Read Gal 5:17. It shows that we still have a sinful nature, so that you do what you do not want.

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The only reason why I can say that God has made a way to perfectly obey is because He said He did in 1Cor 10:13 and gal 5:16! You should check those verses out, my friend. And God is "obligated" to do that which He has promised He would do. Boy what a God we serve!!!

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You’re lobbing nice big fat slow pitches for me to hit, aren’t you? How kind.


I've never been that great of a pitcher, so swing away! Golf is my sport!

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First, remember what God said before the flood, “every inclination of man’s heart was evil all the time (Gen 6:5).” He said exactly the same thing after the flood, when the only people alive were the believing family of Noah (Gen 8:21). And then Noah got drunk and Ham laughed at sin. Where was God’s obligation to make the one family that his love spared lovingly perfect?

I don't understand the point you're making.

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You could not be any further from the truth when you tell me that I do not do that which I want to do. If I fall, I can not rationalize my sin by saying that I had the right desires yet I just couldn't do what I desired to do. That, my friend, is borderline heresy.

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ORIGINAL: qalel

The problem is that you have tried to set up this debate on faulty and, what I would consider manipulative, terms. You want to limit the debate to the question of whether a Christian could go one second without sinning and then die. And if people agree, then you think you’ve proven they can go a day, a week, or a decade without sinning. But if anyone disagrees with that, then you say it’s out of bounds and not what this thread is all about.
Can you stop breathing? If you can stop breathing one second before you die, then you have proven that every single person can stop breathing for the rest of their lives. That’s your logic. Only we’re not allowed to debate anything but the one second rule. If you’ll agree that spending one second without sinning does not prove you can spend the rest of your normal expected lifespan without sinning, then I will argue within the one second rule.

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ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

dreamer,

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And believing that becoming sinless is not possible on earth will not prevent that person from striving to rid himself of something he detests.

Do you REALLY believe this?

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How easy do you think it would be for a person to sear their conscience after sin, rationalizing their decision based on their preconceived absolute certainty of inevitable failure?

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I guess I could be the only one in the entire world who's made such rationalizations, so I will not speak for anyone else. But I know that it was pretty darn easy for me not to feel guilty because I was always told about how horribly powerful and overbearing sinful desires are, but never understood the much greater power of Christ that enables me to overcome sin. Now, thank God, I realize my horrible rationalizations and now strive for a goal that I know is able to be accomplished, all by the power of Christ and leading of the Holy Spirit.

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The problem is that you have tried to set up this debate on faulty and, what I would consider manipulative, terms.

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You want to limit the debate to the question of whether a Christian could go one second without sinning and then die. And if people agree, then you think you’ve proven they can go a day, a week, or a decade without sinning. But if anyone disagrees with that, then you say it’s out of bounds and not what this thread is all about.
Can you stop breathing? If you can stop breathing one second before you die, then you have proven that every single person can stop breathing for the rest of their lives. That’s your logic. Only we’re not allowed to debate anything but the one second rule. If you’ll agree that spending one second without sinning does not prove you can spend the rest of your normal expected lifespan without sinning, then I will argue within the one second rule.

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I still vote no. It’s possible that you might not engage in any activity during that one second that others could point to and say that’s sin. But I say that even during that one second your thoughts were less than 100% pure. Maybe 99.999%, but not 100%. And I say so because your thoughts during that one second were no different than your thoughts during the day, week, year and decade before you died. We have a sinful nature, a “flesh” that means more than just physical bodies, it means that we have an old Adam within us that constantly wars against the Spirit and against the new man created by the Spirit within us. As we grow in grace, that old Adam may at times be very quiet; you might think he’s gone, but he has an influence on your thoughts always. That’s why all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, because even a trace of fleshly thought will taint our good deeds with a bit of sin, and God sees sin in thoughts that are 99.999% pure.
Remember that I said I believe in sins of omission. That means that unless you are going without eating and sleeping to the same degree that Christ did, you ought to confess your failure to live up to the perfect standard.

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You have claimed that the logical necessity of my beliefs is that “1) Christians MUST sin, and 2) A Christian MUST die with unconfessed sin on their hearts, and they MUST die with a broken relationship with God.”

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So your belief is that any unconfessed sin results in a broken relationship with God, and, I assume, damnation?

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And if you’ve sinned and not realized it, and therefore never repented of it, you’re going to hell?

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Is a golf course unjust if a hole in one is not possible on every hole? Even the pros don’t even get par on every hole. But nobody says that makes them satisfied with lots of bogeys. I’d be quite happy with a round of nothing but bogeys (that would be a personal best), but the fact that I can not completely eradicate my sinful nature only means that I will never be satisfied that I have done all that I could.

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You mean the heretic Paul couldn’t be further from the truth, since he’s the one who said it. “For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.”
Who is the “you” if it’s not believers? See also Romans 7. You might deny that that whole chapter refers to what takes place within believers, but it seems clear to me.

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Read Gal 5:17. It shows that we still have a sinful nature, so that you do what you do not want. That can not refer to unbelievers, since they do not experience any war between the Spirit and the sinful nature. You do not do what you want. He must be speaking to believers who still have a sinful nature. Unbelievers do what they want, sin.

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Sarcasm. Thoughts that are less than loving. They drip off the posts. Selfishness as to your position. You're proving by your posts that living a life without sin is impossible. For those lurkers who may not be as "advanced" in doctrinal issues or as far along in their walk, or worse yet, a non-believer checking out the site...what a witness.

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copybingo, what made the sarcasm that Jesus used regularly with the religious establishment of his day okay? Why were Jesus thoughts not "less than loving" when He engaged in heated discussion with them? Why was He not "selfish" when making such bold statements of truth? How do you know what kind of life I live 24/7 without sin by psycho-analyzing a few posts on an electronic medium? Would you care to show me just one instance on this thread which you feel is a poor witness for Christ?

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There must be an obvious explanation of Romans 7 other than your explanation, qalel, because nowhere else in Scripture does it tell us that Christians CAN NOT even do that which they desire to do!

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ORIGINAL: tdd1975

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There must be an obvious explanation of Romans 7 other than your explanation, qalel, because nowhere else in Scripture does it tell us that Christians CAN NOT even do that which they desire to do!

Gal 5:17 ESV For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

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Since when can the author be guilty of his own terms?

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Essentially speaking you are correct in pointing out the fault in that specific logic, but you're missing a crucial aspect of my logic that you refuse to see.

Unaffected logic would state that even though it is possible to hold one's breath under water for a minute does not mean that it is possible for one to hold one;s breath forever. However, with the help of something, it could indeed be possible. Christ's power is precisely what is included in the logic, along with 1Cor 10:13 which states that there is always a way to escape sin.

Christ's power combined with 1 Cor 10:13 would be an infinitely full oxygen tank that is given to the person holding his breath. Therefore, the one who is saved possesses an oxygen tank that enables him to hold his breath for an eternity. For the unregenerate man, however, possess no oxygen tank whatsoever. So for the unsaved individual, the logic fails because he will indeed inevitably fail. However, such inevitability does not exist for the Christian who possesses the wonderful power of Christ.

Therefore, for the Christian, since he can hold his breath for a second, then logically through what Scripture plainly teaches, said Christian can hold his breath for his entire life, all by the power of Christ and leading of the Holy Spirit.

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Fine. I'm glad you said this, because we're going to review a little more logic here.

If there is no way that I can possibly be 100% emotionally pure, and such lack of purity (even if I'm 99.9999999% pure) is sin, then logically you are sinning an infinite amount of times every moment of every day.

If we are commanded to be X, and we can never be wholly X, then every minute that we fail to be completely X, we sin. Furthermore, every second that we fail to be perfectly X, we sin. Moreover, every tenths of a second that we fail to be X, we sin. And every thousandth of a second...every millionth of a second....every billionth of a second....every nanosecond...every picosecond....and so on and so forth. The measurement of a "moment" is infinitely small, yet no matter how small said measurement is, it is still a "moment" wherein you have "sinned".

So tell me, qalel, are you sinning an infinite amount of times every infinitely small "moment"?! How ridiculous! Every second you have sinned millions of billions of trillions of zillions of times (this number does not even scratch the surface of infinity, btw)?! Am I the only one who sees the ridiculousness in this?

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There must be an obvious explanation of Romans 7 other than your explanation, qalel, because nowhere else in Scripture does it tell us that Christians CAN NOT even do that which they desire to do!

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Read Gal 5:17. It shows that we still have a sinful nature, so that you do what you do not want. That can not refer to unbelievers, since they do not experience any war between the Spirit and the sinful nature. You do not do what you want. He must be speaking to believers who still have a sinful nature. Unbelievers do what they want, sin.
Indeed, qalael, why don't we read all of Galatians 5, especially verses 16 through 26. You are correct that in verses 16-17 Paul is discussing the sinful nature in Believers who have not yet fully given themselves to God in belonging to Christ and allowing God to "crucify the flesh" - verse 25.

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You see, when we are saved, we get ALL of God, but when we are sanctified then He gets ALL of us. Only then can the sinful nature be eradicated, only then can Christ's Love be perfected in our entire beings, only then can we choose to not sin each and every time. And when we have this glorious blessing, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, then there is no more war between the Spirit and the sinful nature! Since we live by the Spirit, we must keep in step with the Spirit - verse 26. And that, brother q, is Christian perfection as preached and taught and lived out daily in the W/H tradition!

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ORIGINAL: rcjames

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ORIGINAL: tdd1975

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There must be an obvious explanation of Romans 7 other than your explanation, qalel, because nowhere else in Scripture does it tell us that Christians CAN NOT even do that which they desire to do!

Gal 5:17 ESV For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Please refer to my post No. 556 to see this verse in context.

The passage plainly says that

(Gal 5:16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

So one can choose to follow after the flesh or one can choose to follow after the Spirit. A Christian is not a slave to sin (following after the flesh) but is a servant to righteousness (following after the Spirit).

Paul speads very plainly to this in;


(Rom 6:9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

(Rom 6:10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

(Rom 6:11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

(Rom 6:12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

(Rom 6:13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

(Rom 6:15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Yes temptation will always be there, the flesh will always pull at one, but as Paul stated;

(Rom 6:20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

(Rom 6:21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

(Rom 6:22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If a Christian sins it is because they want to and choose to sin in direct rebellion to Christ.

But praise God for the God given ability to choose not to sin.

Thanks
RC

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ORIGINAL: tdd1975
I agree with you R C that Paul is not giving a liscense to sin. But the flesh is still powerful enough to keep us from fully doing our godly desires.
Does it have dominion over us? no
Does it have the victory? no. In the end it loses. But the point is that we are still in the battle.

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John Newton once said

I am not what I ought to be — ah, how imperfect and deficient! I am not what I wish to be — I abhor what is evil, and I would cleave to what is good! I am not what I hope to be — soon, soon shall I put off mortality, and with mortality all sin and imperfection. Yet, though I am not what I ought to be, nor what I wish to be, nor what I hope to be, I can truly say, I am not what I once was; a slave to sin and Satan; and I can heartily join with the apostle, and acknowledge, "By the grace of God I am what I am."

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That is what Christians do. They don't go around bragging about how good they are but how great Christ is and they press on to be more like him.

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So you’d be okay with me starting a thread titled “Has evry1needsagod stopped beating his children yet? Yes or No answers only”

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Um, he’s still breathing. I said nothing about underwater. And a hypothetical infinite oxygen tank hardly proves that the ability to stop sinning for one second proves a person can stop for the rest of their lives. My point was whether it proves anything. It does not.

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See? That’s an example of what I would consider sin. You know that’s not true. Your logic can’t possibly be that bad. If there was any truth in that logic at all, then if you’ve ever sinned for one second, then you have also sinned millions of billions of trillions of zillions of times. Are you the only one who can’t see the ridiculousness in this?

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What about Galatians 5:17? Is your memory as bad as your logic, or is it a sin to claim God never said something that he in fact did say? If something is taught in an entire chapter and confirmed in another verse, that’s not enough?

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Paul doesn’t say “some of you.” The “you” in verse 17 is the same “you” in verses 16 and 18.
I believe every Christian still has the flesh, the sinful nature, until we reach heaven. He also has a new man, created to be like Christ in love and holiness. The “perfection” verses that are constantly cited are addressing the new man within us. They do not deny the continued existence of an old Adam, but as Paul said in Romans 7, it is no longer I who do it, but sin living in me. He’s not denying responsibility for the sin, he’s saying that he disowns that part of him. It’s still Paul, both the old Adam and the new man are one guy named Paul. But it’s the new man speaking when he says remorsefully, “I do what I don’t want to do,” while at the exact same time, the other part of him is doing exactly what he wants to do. It’s not done against his will, it’s done by the part of his will that he despises, that makes him cry out, “Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.”

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ORIGINAL: qalel

I still vote no. It’s possible that you might not engage in any activity during that one second that others could point to and say that’s sin. But I say that even during that one second your thoughts were less than 100% pure. Maybe 99.999%, but not 100%. And I say so because your thoughts during that one second were no different than your thoughts during the day, week, year and decade before you died.

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ORIGINAL: rawr.ben

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ORIGINAL: qalel

I still vote no. It’s possible that you might not engage in any activity during that one second that others could point to and say that’s sin. But I say that even during that one second your thoughts were less than 100% pure. Maybe 99.999%, but not 100%. And I say so because your thoughts during that one second were no different than your thoughts during the day, week, year and decade before you died.

How can you possible know this? How can you possibly quantify whether my thoughts are godly or not?

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This is why Chrisitan perfection is such a bad doctrine. There is no length to which those who hold to it will go to justify thier sin.
In this sense, it is no different antinomianism.

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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This is why Chrisitan perfection is such a bad doctrine. There is no length to which those who hold to it will go to justify thier sin.
In this sense, it is no different antinomianism.

tdd, perhaps I missed it but do you have a response to my post #519? Or just more baseless name calling and misrepresentation of a biblically sound doctrine of which you have no meaningful understanding?

I asked some very simple questions - why can Jesus use sarcasm without sinning and I apparently cannot? Do you have a real answer?

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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This is why Chrisitan perfection is such a bad doctrine. There is no length to which those who hold to it will go to justify thier sin.
In this sense, it is no different antinomianism.

tdd, perhaps I missed it but do you have a response to my post #519? Or just more baseless name calling and misrepresentation of a biblically sound doctrine of which you have no meaningful understanding?

I asked some very simple questions - why can Jesus use sarcasm without sinning and I apparently cannot? Do you have a real answer?

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Nope. If you have convinced yourself that all the arguments presented here (by either side) are on the same level of holiness and righteousness of Christ's then I have nothing else to say to you.

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ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod

Because apparently it's impossible for anyone to perfectly live in Christ's footsteps. (p.s. that was sarcasm. )