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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/16/2009 12:34:40 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
However, don't forget that it is the MESSIAH who causes the desolations to occur (Dan. 9:26-27):
The antecedent of the "he's" in verse 27 is the subject in verse 26. It cannot be the "prince that shall come" in verse 26 because that is the object of a preposition!
I disagree.
The "on wing - abominations - desolator" is the talking image of the anti-Christ erected by the false prophet (of Israel?) in front of the Curtain in the Inner Room in the Temple which will be built on the Temple Mount.
This fact of prophecy is written in Revelation 13:14.
Out of this midpoint aboination comes the two laws in the next verses, 15-17, which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for Christians and causes many to be martyred.
Jesus unleases the desolations God (the Father) has decreed because only the Lamb is worthy to break the Seals and open the Scroll which has writing within and without.
Jesus does not initiate the abomination in the Temple.
A pronoun is a word that takes the place of a noun. Pronouns can be in one of three cases: Subject, Object, or Possessive. Just because the "ruler who will come" is the object of a preposition doesn't exclude it from being the meaning of the next pronoun when there is no other named person between them.
What Gabriel does in verse 26 is one: establish Daniel as a prophetic work (the Jews don't count Daniel as a prophet) and more importantly: it allows us to know that 'ruler who will come' comes from the Roman world.
I absolutely disagree with your take on who is identified as acting in Daniel 9:27 as the mesomen.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/16/2009 12:39:53 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CWHJrA
Jovier Solana confirmed a covenant with many nations on Jan 1 2007.
No. Javier has not yet concluded the Middle East treaty.
The Temple is not being built yet on the Mount; the Sanhedrin do not have title to it - yet.
The Roadmap is still in progress; it's progress has just been "stalled" (is someone still standing in the way?).
Watch.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/16/2009 9:03:49 PM
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navyblueret
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CWHJrA, Shalom, and welcome to the Forum.
Well Said. Some of what you say seems a bit foreign to my thoughts, so I must reread, and chew on your offering. Please excuse my tooth marks. In the event your words 'hit the mark,' I may have much to unlearn, and much yet to learn, as your focus is way different than what my study has concluded.
My feelings of focus seem to follow more the line of Retrobyter, and Bob97, as they homogenize an excellent synopsis worthy of God's word. I do not reject your line of thought, but must 'Ponder' deeply to find a key that would cause me to deviate from what I feel is the flow of God's teaching.
I must confess, my inability to deduce the timing of the Rapture/Snatching away of the Bride. Every signal, and clue I could find indicated that this past Yom Teruah was the perfect day for the Rapture/Snatching. We all seem to still be here, so: W R O N G ! So much for my mortal attempt to understand what God set out for us to discern. Was I completely wrong - - - Nope, but I wasn't exactly right. (Missed it by {*} that much, however much that is).
Keep your offerings coming, and we, your brothers and sisters, in Jesus, will 'munch-a-bunch,' on your visions, and who-knows, you may well have truth, better than my truth, which puts us both closer to God's Truth, and we both/all W I N !
In Messiah, His Blessing, and Welcome, to you. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/17/2009 3:45:45 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
However, don't forget that it is the MESSIAH who causes the desolations to occur (Dan. 9:26-27):
The antecedent of the "he's" in verse 27 is the subject in verse 26. It cannot be the "prince that shall come" in verse 26 because that is the object of a preposition!
I disagree.
The "on wing - abominations - desolator" is the talking image of the anti-Christ erected by the false prophet (of Israel?) in front of the Curtain in the Inner Room in the Temple which will be built on the Temple Mount.
This fact of prophecy is written in Revelation 13:14.
Out of this midpoint aboination comes the two laws in the next verses, 15-17, which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for Christians and causes many to be martyred.
Jesus unleases the desolations God (the Father) has decreed because only the Lamb is worthy to break the Seals and open the Scroll which has writing within and without.
Jesus does not initiate the abomination in the Temple.
A pronoun is a word that takes the place of a noun. Pronouns can be in one of three cases: Subject, Object, or Possessive. Just because the "ruler who will come" is the object of a preposition doesn't exclude it from being the meaning of the next pronoun when there is no other named person between them.
What Gabriel does in verse 26 is one: establish Daniel as a prophetic work (the Jews don't count Daniel as a prophet) and more importantly: it allows us to know that 'ruler who will come' comes from the Roman world.
I absolutely disagree with your take on who is identified as acting in Daniel 9:27 as the mesomen.
No, sir. In both English and Hebrew, the words "naagiyd habaa'" ("prince the-comer") in verse 26 is SUBORDINATE to the word "`am" ("people") by PLACEMENT! Therefore, they are translated into English as "[the] people [of the] prince that shall come." "Naagiyd" is therefore NOT the subject of that sentence! "`Am" is the subject! Thus, the pronouns in English CANNOT refer back to "prince" as their antecedent! The verbs would have to match "`am." They do not. The verbs are personal and must refer back to the last personal noun that was used as a SUBJECT of the sentence, and that would be "Maashiyach" in the earlier part of vs. 26.
Review your English rules: When you said, "Just because the 'ruler who will come' is the object of a preposition doesn't exclude it from being the meaning of the next pronoun when there is no other named person between them," you just CONTRADICTED those rules!
Quite the opposite is true. While a pronoun may have various cases, the antecedent of a pronoun MUST be in the nominative case; therefore, it CANNOT be found in the prepositional phrase because that noun, being the OBJECT of the preposition, is in the OBJECTIVE case! The only time it could be otherwise is if the pronoun exists within a subordinate clause that acts as the object of that preposition! Then, it may refer back to the noun which acts as the subject of the subordinate clause, which in turn is acting as the object of the preposition.
The point is this: Whether looking at these verses from the English perspective or the Hebrew perspective, the end result is the same: The antecedent of the pronouns in verb translation in verse 27 must refer back to the ONE personal subject of verse 26: Maashiayach or Messiah.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/17/2009 5:30:24 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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I don't agree with your explanation and I don't agree with your take on Daniel 9:27.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/17/2009 7:23:27 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The point is this: Whether looking at these verses from the English perspective or the Hebrew perspective, the end result is the same: The antecedent of the pronouns in verb translation in verse 27 must refer back to the ONE personal subject of verse 26: Maashiayach or Messiah.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Greetings
If so then we have to find a witness in likeness of Jesus being a prince ….and not the King of Kings and Lord of Lords
And since there is mention of the prince of the power of the air in the demonic, then the prince of the people… is not Jesus Christ
The antecedent of the pronouns in verb translation in verse 27 must refer back to the ONE personal subject
But Daniel was speaking revealing these things to his people; therefore we have 2 to relate that to
So if the translation in verse 27 refers back to the ONE personal subject between 2 different prophecies, that is half done because the same principals have to apply by its opposites to both of these are written here
Jhn 5:43
I am “come” in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another “shall come” in his own name, him ye will receive.
To refer back to the ONE personal subject we have 2 to reiterate from
1 Jesus comes in my Father's name = not his own name
2 The prince of the people who is to COME = comes in his own name
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
“and” = in addition to….
……the people of the prince “that “shall” come…. shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
That is not speaking of Christians or a follower of Christ…
BECAUSE in addition to….. the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto (from the beginning to the end) the end of the war desolations are determined.
These are caused by the prince of the people who is to COME = because he comes is in his own name, = after threescore and two weeks
And this… is for Daniels people.
One can not derive a pre wrath from this because the beginning begins with Messiah being cut off NOT after threescore and two weeks ….and from that time forward… the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end =(from the beginning to the end) of the war (beginning with Messiah being cut off )…. desolations are determined.
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 11/17/2009 7:33:57 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/18/2009 5:24:22 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 799
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
I don't agree with your explanation and I don't agree with your take on Daniel 9:27.
That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. I would suggest, however, that you do NOT try to use these verses for support of an "antichrist" figure. Use the "man of sin" or the "lawless one" in II Thes. 2:1-11 or the "beast" in Revelation 13ff, but do not expect the Hebrew to support your view of Daniel 9:27.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/18/2009 6:38:13 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Not only can the implied pronoun by the third person singular be traced back to a person who is even mentioned as an object of a preposition - I most certainly will not refraim from saying it is the "desolator" - the anti-Christ - who sets up the abomination (actually we find later in Revelation 13:14 that it is his henchman: the false prophet who sets up the talking image of the anti-Christ).
You cannot link Jesus with the abomination as is done in Daniel 9:27; Jesus is most Holy being the Lamb through which the Father gave us salvation. The specific abomination in Daniel 9:27 is also in the plural suggesting how great it is... as so often is the case in the Hebrew. An abomination in the Bible usually refers to an idol, and so it is with the midpoint abomination. What makes it worse than all the others is that this one can speak.
The Hebrew in Daniel 9:27 has three nouns in succession making translation difficult, but it does support a reading by which the person who forces the covenant with many is the Roman ruler who will come. Furthermore, he is the desolator coincidental with the abomination and God's Wrath ultimately will be poured out on the same desolator. (God's Wrath is never pointed toward a condition like "desolation" but rather toward beings - hence mesomen = desolator.)
The midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27 is not the return of Christ either. Jesus will not come until after both the midpoint AND the Great Tribulation as He told us in the Olivet Discourse.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/18/2009 8:25:36 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Not only can the implied pronoun by the third person singular be traced back to a person who is even mentioned as an object of a preposition - I most certainly will not refraim from saying it is the "desolator" - the anti-Christ - who sets up the abomination (actually we find later in Revelation 13:14 that it is his henchman: the false prophet who sets up the talking image of the anti-Christ).
You cannot link Jesus with the abomination as is done in Daniel 9:27;
The Hebrew in Daniel 9:27 has three nouns in succession making translation difficult, but it does support a reading by which the person who forces the covenant with many is the Roman ruler who will come. Furthermore, he is the desolator coincidental with the abomination and God's Wrath ultimately will be poured out on the same desolator. (God's Wrath is never pointed toward a condition like "desolation" but rather toward beings - hence mesomen = desolator.)
The midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27 is not the return of Christ either. Jesus will not come until after both the midpoint AND the Great Tribulation as He told us in the Olivet Discourse.
Greetings
quote:
The Hebrew in Daniel 9:27 has three nouns in succession making translation difficult, You cannot link Jesus with the abomination as is done in Daniel 9:27;
Daniel 9:27 does not link Jesus with the abomination, nor is Jesus the prince who is to come
...Its not difficult... to translate by the inspirations taken from other scripture
The proper witness that shows that Daniel 9:27 does not link Jesus with the abomination, nor links Jesus as the prince who is to come....is found as it is written in Jer 25
Jer 25:38 Like a lion he will leave his lair, and their land will become desolate because "of the sword" of the oppressor and Because of the LORD's fierce anger.
The Lords fierce anger is caused by the people of the prince by the overspreading of abominations
Reiterate…
Jer 25:38 Like a lion… he =(the Lion of Judah) ….will leave his lair, =John 14:3....(when the restrainer is removed)
Like a lion… he ….will leave his lair,=and their land…. will become desolate =the beginning of the tribulation
AND
because "of the sword" of the oppressor, =the words of the oppressor... is that sword that causes "the overspreading of abominations"….2 Thess 2..Dainel 9:27
.... and... That causes the LORD's fierce anger (in the midst of the week). = the great tribulation
And is where the reverse occurs against the sword" of the oppressor = 2Thess 2:8
The full order of the week and the rapture of the Church is even given right there in the divisions in Jer 25:38 “beginning” with... the Lord leaving his lair =John 14:3,
This is Biblically known as the trump of God ...or the Last trump, with Jesus “first advent” being... the first trump.
=Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the "beginning" and "the end", the first and the last .
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 11/18/2009 8:32:30 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/18/2009 9:11:05 PM
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Reform_Dave
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Pre-trib, nope. Mid-trib, nope. Post-trib, nope. No-rapture, yep. We are going all the way on that nasty little ride. American Christians love the rapture fable because we are special and are not supposed to suffer.
_____________________________
Soli Deo Gloria.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/18/2009 10:41:17 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
The Bible is a fable?
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/18/2009 10:46:51 PM
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bob97
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quote:
No-rapture, yep.
Well Dave I guess that all depends upon how you describe rapture. For sure the bible tells us that there will be such an occurrence:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. " (1Thes. 4:16-17)
I don’t know that we ever leave this atmosphere but we will certainly be gathered into the clouds to meet the Lord.
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/18/2009 10:48:33 PM
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bob97
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Wow Saint...ya beat me to the punch... 
In Messiah,
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/19/2009 12:10:36 AM
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agapeflight
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Punching other christians might feel good in the moment, it might even seem necessary, but let's not forget Jesus already took all the punches on the cross.
That is mostly tongue in cheek so please nobody pile on af.
Hi Bob. Sending you a PM soon. Did you see we are going to have our first official permanent EU President in January 2010? Exciting.
Pre-wrath question of the month for me. How are we to account for the context of the Parable of the Fig Tree in Matthew 24. It clearly seems to indicate that when the Lord returns there are Christians working together in anonymity or peace even with the unsaved. This would seem hard to believe under a basic pre-wrath scenario because unbelievable persecution has already taken place.
Is the Lord talking from the perspective of Israel at this point, that Israel has up to that point largely escaped the major struggles and that a Jewish remnant is snatched away in the rapture along with the church? I'm considering it carefully because I am about to engage in a prolonged dispute with the Calvary Chapel churches over their dogmatic stance on pre-trib rapture and a few other abuses.
God bless.
< Message edited by agapeflight -- 11/19/2009 12:45:57 AM >
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/19/2009 8:06:11 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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Well let's look at how those who don't die before seeing the Lord come with Angels and all the Saints from Paradise on the clouds might be living after the Great Tribulation.
Being that they can't buy or sell, they are essentially living "off the grid." They can't operate in the normal way (unless they pre-pay their utilities) but that doesn't stop the normal ebb and flow of life. Nor have they yet been removed from the world. They will experience dwindling supplies and I think the parable of the ten virgins gives us some flavor that wise Christians will be wary as snakes of those asking for precious supplies...
The whole point is that the Church is removed before the redemption of Israel; the reason for the Millennial is to lead Israel back to Jesus. When some Jews are gathered up and see the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, but are found to be wanting of basic salvation because of their lack of faith - they are put out back into the world. This will be so that Israel will know that God has consecrated those He has invited and they are essentially "left out in the cold" of the world as they enter the Millennium. This will work to motivate Israel.
But the Remnant is protected during the Great Tribulation and God's Wrath by God. Read in Isaiah how He will lead them along paths they don't know. He is the one who tells them to move so they stay safe, and those He leads must be ready to move at a moment's notice.
For those Jews lucky enough to "make it" to the Millennial, they will finally recognize that their Messiah King they had waited for these past thirty some centuries is the same Servant Messiah they had rejected and they will cry.
(Scriptural reference available on Sunday - right now I have to run: gotta three-day trip to get ready for.)
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/19/2009 8:22:35 AM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, LoyalGypsy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
The point is this: Whether looking at these verses from the English perspective or the Hebrew perspective, the end result is the same: The antecedent of the pronouns in verb translation in verse 27 must refer back to the ONE personal subject of verse 26: Maashiayach or Messiah.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Greetings
If so then we have to find a witness in likeness of Jesus being a prince ….and not the King of Kings and Lord of Lords
And since there is mention of the prince of the power of the air in the demonic, then the prince of the people… is not Jesus Christ.
Do you understand the two terms "naagiyd" and "melekh?" The first is translated "prince" and refers more to being a "commander." It was also translated (into the KJV) as “ruler,” “chief,” “leader,” and “governor.” The second is translated "king" and refers more to being a "judge." It was ONLY translated as “king” or “royal.”
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries defines them as...
OT:5057 naagiyd (naw-gheed'); or naagid (naw-gheed'); from OT:5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstractly, plural), honorable themes:
KJV - captain, chief, excellent thing, (chief) governor, leader, noble, prince, (chief) ruler.
OT:4428 melekh (meh'-lek); from OT:4427; a king:
KJV – king, royal.
OT:4427 malakh (maw-lak'); a primitive root; to reign; inceptively, to ascend the throne; causatively, to induct into royalty; hence (by implication) to take counsel:
KJV – consult, indeed, be (make, set a, set up) king, be (make) queen, (begin to, make to) reign (-ing), rule, surely.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
That’s one of the reasons for being sure that one is using the RIGHT word when comparing words to other words in the English-speaking versions of the Bible. Sometimes, even when the same English word is used, they may be translated from two entirely different Hebrew words (or Greek words) and mean entirely two different things! At other times, the same Hebrew word (or Greek word) may be translated into two entirely different English words and we might miss the fact that they are related to each other in the original language!
That’s what has happened here with the word “naagiyd.” It was translated into SEVERAL English words: captain, chief, governor, chief governor, leader, noble, prince, ruler, chief ruler, and even “excellent thing!”
So, let’s look up EACH of these other English words and see if any of them were translated from “naagiyd,” shall we?
Or even better, if we have access to the Englishman’s Concordance, we can look up all the places a particular Hebrew word was used in the Old Testament [the Tanakh] (or all the places a particular Greek word was used in the New Testament [the B’rit Chadashah]).
Still better than that, if you have access to a true Hebrew Concordance, you might find the same information without resorting to English at all!
Since I do not have access to a true Hebrew Concordance (yet), I will use Englishman’s Concordance. This is what I found:
From PC Study Bible (which has Englishman’s Concordance as a reference work), I find that there are 44 instances in the OT where the word “naagiyd” was found:
The very first incident is found in I Samuel 9:16 when God is telling Samuel to anoint Saul to be the CAPTAIN of Isra’el.
After another reference to Saul in I Samuel 10:1, the word is found again in I Samuel 13:14 referring to David as being anointed to be the CAPTAIN of Isra’el.
In I Kings 1:35, the word is used of Solomon, only there, it was translated “RULER.”
In this passage, …
Isa 55:1-7
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
KJV
…the word is found in verse 4 as the word “leader.” Tell me, to whom does this refer? David? Or, the Holy One of Isra’el?
Know what? It’s even the word “PRINCE” in Dani’el 9:25! Just one verse before Dani’el 9:26!
Dan 9:25
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
KJV
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
The antecedent of the pronouns in verb translation in verse 27 must refer back to the ONE personal subject
But Daniel was speaking revealing these things to his people; therefore we have 2 to relate that to
So if the translation in verse 27 refers back to the ONE personal subject between 2 different prophecies, that is half done because the same principals have to apply by its opposites to both of these are written here
John 5:43
I am “come” in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another “shall come” in his own name, him ye will receive.
To refer back to the “ONE personal subject” we have 2 to reiterate from
1 Jesus comes in my Father's name = not his own name
2 The prince of the people who is to COME = comes in his own name
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
“and” = in addition to….
……the people of the prince “that “shall” come…. shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
That is not speaking of Christians or a follower of Christ…
BECAUSE in addition to….. the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto (from the beginning to the end) the end of the war desolations are determined.
These are caused by the prince of the people who is to COME = because he comes is in his own name, = after threescore and two weeks
And this… is for Daniels people.
One can not derive a pre wrath from this because the beginning begins with Messiah being cut off NOT after threescore and two weeks ….and from that time forward… the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end =(from the beginning to the end) of the war (beginning with Messiah being cut off )…. desolations are determined.
LG
Well, I never actually said I was FOR pre-wrath. I don’t believe that “rapture” is before anything but the seven last bowl-plagues which will be poured out in rapid succession as the Lord returns to earth. At that point, God’s Wrath has already started. Those who are His are just exempt from that Wrath.
However, the desolations that are determined WERE started with the rejection of the Messiah, because HE, in turn, temporarily rejected the Jews! (Matt. 23:37-39)
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 11/19/2009 8:32:48 AM >
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/19/2009 8:48:59 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 799
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Reform_Dave.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
Pre-trib, nope. Mid-trib, nope. Post-trib, nope. No-rapture, yep. We are going all the way on that nasty little ride. American Christians love the rapture fable because we are special and are not supposed to suffer.
You're right, for the most part; however, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. While the idea of a "rapture," usually defined as a "transferral of people to Heaven," is in error, we do still have the Scriptures in I Thessalonians 4:13-17:
1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
The Greek word is "harpageesometha," a form of "harpazoo," which means "to be snatched away." And, although it has no direct reference to the direction of "up," we are led to understand that we will be snatched up as far as "the clouds" "in the air." I see it as a "mass transit system" getting us all quickly to Isra'el and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) to aid the Messiah as He attacks those attacking the Jews, especially those attacking the Jews in Y'hudah (Judah) and Yerushalayim.
The "rapture" as described in the Bible is not a mass exodus from the earth, but is rather a gathering of the Messiah's army.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/19/2009 9:04:00 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 799
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Not only can the implied pronoun by the third person singular be traced back to a person who is even mentioned as an object of a preposition - I most certainly will not refraim from saying it is the "desolator" - the anti-Christ - who sets up the abomination (actually we find later in Revelation 13:14 that it is his henchman: the false prophet who sets up the talking image of the anti-Christ).
You cannot link Jesus with the abomination as is done in Daniel 9:27; Jesus is most Holy being the Lamb through which the Father gave us salvation. The specific abomination in Daniel 9:27 is also in the plural suggesting how great it is... as so often is the case in the Hebrew. An abomination in the Bible usually refers to an idol, and so it is with the midpoint abomination. What makes it worse than all the others is that this one can speak.
The Hebrew in Daniel 9:27 has three nouns in succession making translation difficult, but it does support a reading by which the person who forces the covenant with many is the Roman ruler who will come. Furthermore, he is the desolator coincidental with the abomination and God's Wrath ultimately will be poured out on the same desolator. (God's Wrath is never pointed toward a condition like "desolation" but rather toward beings - hence mesomen = desolator.)
The midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27 is not the return of Christ either. Jesus will not come until after both the midpoint AND the Great Tribulation as He told us in the Olivet Discourse.
Sure I can link Yeshua` the Messiah with the abomination as is done in Dani'el 9:27: All God has to do to cause desolation is to REMOVE HIS HAND OF PROTECTION! When God removes His protection, it won't take long for the evil in this world and its corruption to catch up with the desolate! It is the abomination that the JEWS THEMSELVES have done! They REJECTED YESHUA` THE MESSIAH OF GOD AND CRUCIFIED HIM! What could be more abominable than that??!!!
Allow me to point to the verses one more time:
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV (emphasis mine)
Can't you see what is being prophesied? That's why there's a GAP! Half of the week is already over and we are IN THE GAP...IN THE "MIDPOINT!"
Think about it!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 11/19/2009 4:41:45 PM >
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/19/2009 11:55:44 AM
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Reform_Dave
Posts: 312
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Where the mountains touch the sky.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
The Bible is a fable?
"The bible is a fable?". I didnt say that, you know thats not what i said or even meant, so why throw out such a silly line like that?, unless your being obtuse. What does that scripture quoted describe other than resurrection?, i see no Tim Lahaye like rapture scenario where untold numbers of people suddenly disappear before the boogy man comes to ruin their day. If you see that there, good for you, and if you find comfort in it, wonderful. I was just stating my opinion, a bit of dissent in a thread where the majority walk in Left Behind lockstep.
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Soli Deo Gloria.
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RE: Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church - 11/19/2009 6:39:26 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2244
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
The Bible is a fable?
I’m not sure where you got that translation, but can you see the contradiction..??
See were it says in verse 17 saying "After that
Think about it...
by the suggestion of After that ... If it is a separate occurrence.... then how are we caught up together with them 
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself “will come down” (leave his lair) from heaven, = Jer 25:38 Like a lion… he =(the Lion of Judah) ….will leave his lair,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
Here is the prophecy sticking to the strict principals … beginning with a loud command,
That Loud command is the first commandment and the strict principal that applies ALWAYS is that God is always mentioned in the first person,
Therefore
With the trumpet call of God is first = always… nothing occurs until (not last as post and mid trib would have one believe)
Therefore ….
PART 1
With the trumpet call of God the Lord himself “will come down” (leave his lair) from heaven, = Jer 25:38 Like a lion… he =(the Lion of Judah) ….will leave his lair,
PART 2
With the voice of the archangel… the dead in Christ… will rise first
PART 3
And with a “loud command” …. we who alive and remain will be caught up together “with them” in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
That order there… above…. is exactly as it was given to St John as the witness as it written in Rev
Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the “first voice” which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet …..
talking with me; which said, Come up hither, = the command
And I will show thee things which must be hereafter.=
At this point…. the restrainer is lifted and “the tribulation begins”= hereafter
So now when we take Daniel, Jeremiah with Paul giving the prophecy later reiterated by St John via the Revelation …we have at least “4” witnesses of prophetic scriptures giving the order of events… that folks seem to deny exist
Mainly because of this insert
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive ““[and] remain””
Then 1899 we 2249 which 3588 are alive 2198 “[and] remain” 4035 shall be caught up 726
The actual word thereupon is the correct word according to 4 witnesses
Then 1899 we 2249 which 3588 are alive 2198 thereupon 1899= in like manner with (coming down”= (leaving his lair)
….shall be caught up 726 ….= will be caught up together “with them”
So the contrasts between the dead and the living in Christ = singular… and this dictates why thereupon 1899 is the proper tense, because they both occur when the Lord descends with the trumpet of God = first person singular and is why St John used the very same here in the first person
, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the “first voice” which I heard
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 “Then” we …. =thereupon = in like manner... and is when the Lord descends from heaven = first…
.. “Then” we …. thereupon (NOT AFTERWARDS) which "are alive" in contrast to the dead.... shall be caught up together “with them” in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Afterwards and with them are in contradiction.
Strong's G1899 - epeita
Then 1899 we 2249 which 3588 are alive 2198
Strong's G1899 - epeita 1) thereupon, thereafter, “then”, afterwards
I’m not sure where you got that translation, but can you see the contradiction..??
….were it says in verse 17.... Saying "After that1899
There are no witnesses to be found to support v17.... saying "After that1899
But we can see plainly that at least “4” witnesses describe thereupon...
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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