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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 12:37:22 PM
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ATtheCROSS923
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God does not force you to do anything. God did not force Hitler to kill, God did not force Stallin to kill. Those Evil men were inspired by Satan.
When you were born you already had the "Fallen" DNA in you. Your parents had to teach you not to be bad. When you were a little fella, you lied before you probably even understood what a lie is. You were self centered when you were a child.....do you remember when you were a kid, everything is "mine, mine, mine." If we dont have proper upbringing we grow up into what most of us had become. Lost and confused. And then we found Jesus and he changed our lives.
God is not controlling you to go and get a Mocha. What if you were standing in line at that starbucks and someone came in and shot the person in front of you.....did God control that person to do that? Absolutely not. Evil made that person cross the line.
Could you go and rob a bank if you wanted to? Sure you could but you are not walking with Jesus if you do, because if you were truly walking with Jesus the Holy Spirit would not allow you to even get close to crossing that line. Things are different when you are full of the Holy Spirit, you see things different.
There is nothing wrong with going and getting a mocha, but what if you give the lady a $5 bill and she accidentally gives you change for a $50.....what do you do? That is when you have the choice to do right or wrong.
< Message edited by ATtheCROSS923 -- 10/20/2009 12:43:56 PM >
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 12:45:55 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
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From: The higher lowcountry
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God isn't about "control" He's about "knowing." They're not the same.
He's not pressing the "on" and "off" switches to your life...but He does already know your life, your choices and your heart. Knowing those things is not the same as controlling them with a remote.
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 2:25:58 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
So, interpolating, you're suggesting that God is controlling you such that He makes you sin
I would think it's quite obvious that's what I've been suggesting.
Have you read any of C. S. Lewis' works? Such as Mere Christianity? His ability to reason is superb IMO. Here's one paragraph he wrote:
C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 52
But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. It may be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, "I'm not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You've got to learn to keep it tidy on your own." Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy. The same thing arises in any regiment, or trade union, or school. You make a thing voluntary and then half the people do not do it. That is not what you willed, but your will made it possible.
Just because God has decided what His will is does not mean everyone will obey His will.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 3:04:35 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
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And what is the mother's punishment for this?
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Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 5:15:08 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10784
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
When you love someone do you force them to think/act/talk/believe a certain way?
That's exactly what god has done. He instilled in me a certain personality. The nature of that personality dictates all the choices I make.
So, yes, god controls me. In a few minutes, I'm going to go and order a white chocolate mocha from Starbuck's. God has complete control over the fact that I'm going to make that choice. You want to know how? When god created me, he gave me taste buds that favored white chocolate mochas over any other drink. By giving me taste buds with a preference for white mocha, god controlled the fact that I've been spending my whole life up to this point drinking white mocha.
So, yes, god controls me.
Did He not give you free will?
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 5:41:29 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
And what is the mother's punishment for this?
Do you see that there would be a punishment for the mother?
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 6:10:47 PM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
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quote:
What if you were standing in line at that starbucks and someone came in and shot the person in front of you.....did God control that person to do that?
God created the soul. He created that person's personality. At that person's birth, god said "I will create this person as someone who will one day be evil. Someone whose evil qualities will cause them to shoot people." Whoever this person is, they can't control that god created them this way. They can't control the fact that god gave them an evil personality at birth. So, yes, god is indeed 100% responsible for that person's actions, because the choice that the person made is a result of the evil god instilled him at birth. Or maybe that evil wasn't given at birth. Maybe god instilled the evil in that person at some other point in his life. The time doesn't matter, though. What matters is that god either created that soul as evil, or transformed it into something evil some time during its life, so god is responsible for all the evil things that soul does.
quote:
Knowing those things is not the same as controlling them with a remote.
He created me. He decided what kind of person I would be, and the choices I made over the years are a direct result of that person he created me as. If he created me as a good person, then I made good choices. If he created me as a bad person, then I made bad choices. If he created me as greedy, then I made greedy choices. He controlled what kind of person I was born as. So he's responsible for the choices I made.
quote:
C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 52
But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. It may be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, "I'm not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You've got to learn to keep it tidy on your own." Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy. The same thing arises in any regiment, or trade union, or school. You make a thing voluntary and then half the people do not do it. That is not what you willed, but your will made it possible.
That example is fundametally flawed and illogical. A mother doesn't decide what kind of personality her child will have at birth the way god does. Therefore, she can't be compared with god. There is no comparison.
The fundamental point remains. God creates souls. He's responsible for what kinds of qualities those souls have: good, bad, evil, greedy, compassionate, generous, deceitful, honest, etc. The choices that the souls make during their life are a result of the qualities god instills in the souls at their birth. Therefore, by simple logic, god has complete control over what a person does over the course of their life. It may be indirect control, but it still counts as control nonetheless.
If anyone can find a flaw in the logic I presented in the paragraph right before this one, I would love to hear it. If any of you find that you simply can't find any good reasons to support your arguments, and would find it easier to simply label me as a skeptic who doesn't understand, then go ahead and continue to keep on misunderstanding the lord. Keep on believing in free will if it makes you feel better, even though there's no reason whatsoever to support its existence.
< Message edited by CommonSense549 -- 10/20/2009 6:16:53 PM >
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 6:32:43 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549.
The fundamental point remains. God creates souls. He's responsible for what kinds of qualities those souls have: good, bad, evil, greedy, compassionate, generous, deceitful, honest, etc. The choices that the souls make during their life are a result of the qualities god instills in the souls at their birth. Therefore, by simple logic, god has complete control over what a person does over the course of their life. It may be indirect control, but it still counts as control nonetheless.
If God left us to ourselves, then yes, I would say we would all be in a pickle. But we don't have to be in a pickle. When Jesus ascended to Heaven, He said He wouldn't leave us alone. He would send us the helper. So, we are not required to succumb to the personality or abilities we were born with. We can overcome anything--even an evil bent should we have one. Left to our own devices, we may never tap into this source of strength that God provides to us. So, as the saying goes, God can do all things. He can change you and me and everyone else--but He wont force us to change. We must be willing to allow Him to work in and through us. A lot of people don't want to give up their own control to God. They are proud of their own abilities and not willing to share control with God. It's IMO a pride issue.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 6:40:38 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 388
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 52
But anyone who has been in authority knows how a thing can be in accordance with your will in one way and not in another. It may be quite sensible for a mother to say to the children, "I'm not going to go and make you tidy the schoolroom every night. You've got to learn to keep it tidy on your own." Then she goes up one night and finds the Teddy bear and the ink and the French Grammar all lying in the grate. That is against her will. She would prefer the children to be tidy. But on the other hand, it is her will which has left the children free to be untidy. The same thing arises in any regiment, or trade union, or school. You make a thing voluntary and then half the people do not do it. That is not what you willed, but your will made it possible.
That example is fundametally flawed and illogical. A mother doesn't decide what kind of personality her child will have at birth the way god does. Therefore, she can't be compared with god. There is no comparison.
My point was that though the mother had expressed her will to her children (as God does with us), she did not force her children to comply. That is very similar to how God expresses His will to us. Sometimes we obey, sometimes we don't, but we can't say we were forced to obey as sometimes we do and sometimes we don't. I bet, though, that she does have a pretty good idea what the outcome will be from observing her children from birth. Parents do carry a lot of responsibility in how their kids turn out in life. The apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 8:00:53 PM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
Joined: 9/28/2009
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quote:
My point was that though the mother had expressed her will to her children (as God does with us), she did not force her children to comply. That is very similar to how God expresses His will to us. Sometimes we obey, sometimes we don't, but we can't say we were forced to obey as sometimes we do and sometimes we don't. I bet, though, that she does have a pretty good idea what the outcome will be from observing her children from birth. Parents do carry a lot of responsibility in how their kids turn out in life. The apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree.
I'll have to sort out these disagreements on my own, but I just oughtta thank you and everyone else here for being so patient and gracious with a brother like me. It touches me, no matter how rude I may have seemed here. The point is that I've still got some work to do before I can properly accept god and join everyone here.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 10:13:48 PM
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Robin-again
Posts: 239
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
While I was typing this it made me think of the song "The love of God" Bless you child for sharing this.
(((HUGs)))
_____________________________
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If we don't feel close to Him we are the ones that walked away. He is still right beside us.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 10:18:24 PM
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Robin-again
Posts: 239
Joined: 8/2/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
When you love someone do you force them to think/act/talk/believe a certain way?
That's exactly what god has done. He instilled in me a certain personality. The nature of that personality dictates all the choices I make.
So, yes, god controls me.
amen.
God controls me to.
I'm glad He allows me to make decisions and are given choices so that I can live and grow toward Him.
_____________________________
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If we don't feel close to Him we are the ones that walked away. He is still right beside us.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 11:53:45 PM
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ATtheCROSS923
Posts: 134
Joined: 2/9/2009
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quote:
God created the soul. He created that person's personality. At that person's birth, god said "I will create this person as someone who will one day be evil. Someone whose evil qualities will cause them to shoot people." Whoever this person is, they can't control that god created them this way. They can't control the fact that god gave them an evil personality at birth. So, yes, god is indeed 100% responsible for that person's actions, because the choice that the person made is a result of the evil god instilled him at birth. Or maybe that evil wasn't given at birth. Maybe god instilled the evil in that person at some other point in his life. The time doesn't matter, though. What matters is that god either created that soul as evil, or transformed it into something evil some time during its life, so god is responsible for all the evil things that soul does.
I dont understand how you can think the God of all creation would make you an Evil person from birth.
God is love. God is good. God is Holy. God is so Holy that he cant even look at sin, so why would he intentionally make you Evil?
Your environment forms your personality. God gives you abilities.
Whenever you have a CHOICE to do right or wrong...that is a free-will decision. That is why it is a CHOICE. Think about that for a minute....you have the OPTION of choosing Good or Evil.
Why do you think that there is an Evil way and a Good way? If God was forcing you to do Evil things, their wouldnt be a right or wrong way. Their is Good and Evil in the world. God cant control you to do both of them. He has to be on either the Good side or the Bad side, and the Bible says God is on the Good side. The bible says that God is Love, God is good...and I believe it.
God cannot be controling both the Evil side and the Righteous side. That makes no sense at all.
Your true nature is to be Holy and righteous. The fallen nature of man has put a wedge between you and God.
We as humans were not created to be sinful, it is just the nature of our flesh(the world we live in)....its not our true nature though. Our true nature was in the garden before the fall. God wants to take that wedge away, and Jesus is the only way to do it.
Im still prayin for you my friend 
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/21/2009 6:15:43 AM
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mariamaria
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I have never been able to understand why God can't just say I forgive you when we have messed up with out Jesus having to die, after all when some one does me wrong I don't need a sacrifice or have some one pay a price to show that they mean it and for me to give forgiveness.
BUT, if that's what God says had to happen in order for forgiveness then I will take it as truth...so as I understand it, some one had to pay the price for our sins and Jesus was the one, God had no choice but to send his son for this because he didn't want us to pay the price. true love..x
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/21/2009 1:01:06 PM
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Robin-again
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ATtheCROSS923
God is love. God is good. God is Holy.
Im still prayin for you my friend[:)
amen.
I'm praying also.
_____________________________
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If we don't feel close to Him we are the ones that walked away. He is still right beside us.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/21/2009 1:24:05 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Knowing those things is not the same as controlling them with a remote.
He created me. He decided what kind of person I would be, and the choices I made over the years are a direct result of that person he created me as. If he created me as a good person, then I made good choices. If he created me as a bad person, then I made bad choices. If he created me as greedy, then I made greedy choices. He controlled what kind of person I was born as. So he's responsible for the choices I made.
wow...well, then good luck with your current choices.
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/21/2009 1:51:07 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
And what is the mother's punishment for this?
Do you see that there would be a punishment for the mother?
I meant, What is the punishment the child receives from the mother?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/21/2009 5:35:45 PM
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jmjphe
Posts: 74
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quote:
I have never been able to understand why God can't just say I forgive you when we have messed up with out Jesus having to die
That is how serious sin and evil are. They literally and ultimatley always conclude in death. We also see how utterly serious God is about his love for us. Its one thing to say "hey, its forgiven, now go about your business". That in itself does not hold much power does it?. However, Christ, the visible image of the invisible God, died and suffered, he took our burden..now we can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God is absolutley serious about sin, evil, love, and redemption. God became flesh and lived the human experience. What sheer sincereity and aboslute love, for God, to be born like a human, and die, like a human, thats about as real as it gets, as extreme as it can get.
Let me ask you this...If I met you in person for the first time and said, you know what, I like you, I'd take a bullet for you if you were shot at. What would you honestly think? Would you beleive me at all? What kind of conclusions would you draw about my personality? Do you think I really liked you as I said I did? Now, what if I did actually take a bullet for you, died, and saved your life that day? What would you think than?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/21/2009 6:25:25 PM
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kmangel
Posts: 388
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
And what is the mother's punishment for this?
Do you see that there would be a punishment for the mother?
I meant, What is the punishment the child receives from the mother?
Oh, I thought from what you wrote that you thought the mother would be punished and that didn't make any sense to me. The paragraph does not speak of punishment.
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/21/2009 10:32:51 PM
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Robin-again
Posts: 239
Joined: 8/2/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Knowing those things is not the same as controlling them with a remote.
He created me. He decided what kind of person I would be, and the choices I made over the years are a direct result of that person he created me as. If he created me as a good person, then I made good choices. If he created me as a bad person, then I made bad choices. If he created me as greedy, then I made greedy choices. He controlled what kind of person I was born as. So he's responsible for the choices I made.
wow...well, then good luck with your current choices.
Let's all pray for this Child of Gods.
_____________________________
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If we don't feel close to Him we are the ones that walked away. He is still right beside us.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/22/2009 8:59:59 AM
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Knight_Of_God
Posts: 37
Joined: 10/21/2009
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god the most important being on the face of the universe sent his one and only child to die for our sins so we could all be forgiven, Its crazy to think about but in the end Jesus stands with his father now, im sure god cried when it happened im sure god was mad when it happened but he has a purpose for every one and that was Jesus purpose
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/22/2009 9:35:07 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
Oh, I thought from what you wrote that you thought the mother would be punished and that didn't make any sense to me. The paragraph does not speak of punishment.
No but to keep the analogy on track we can infer that she would lock her children in the basement for 20 years, or put them through waterboarding, or some such similar punishment. It would still fall short of God's punishment for us if we mess up, but at least it's in a similar ballpark.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/22/2009 6:28:47 PM
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Knight_Of_God
Posts: 37
Joined: 10/21/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mariamaria
I have never been able to understand why God can't just say I forgive you when we have messed up with out Jesus having to die, after all when some one does me wrong I don't need a sacrifice or have some one pay a price to show that they mean it and for me to give forgiveness.
BUT, if that's what God says had to happen in order for forgiveness then I will take it as truth...so as I understand it, some one had to pay the price for our sins and Jesus was the one, God had no choice but to send his son for this because he didn't want us to pay the price. true love..x
I understand what your saying but Jesus was somthing we could never be, he was the son of god, in a way he was god he came here to warn us and do what no 1 would do give his life to save the world,its not a meaning of sacrifice its a meaning to show that he will from now on forgive us and that god does exist for dont we all remember Jesus rose yet again from the dead on easter sunday?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/23/2009 5:47:33 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 839
Joined: 1/15/2006
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God cannot forgive sin. Thats why.
God is perfectly righteous, God is perfectly holy, perfectly just in all his works. His ways are all righteousness.
God is not like us, He doesnt just..give a pass, grade on a curve, let'er go, turn his head or any other such things we sinful humans do with sin.
God will not acquit the wicked.
For God to maintain his perfect righteousness and remain untouched by ungodly men, God undertook to do what we could not do.
God Provided a payment for sins, a ransom, a sacrifice that would clear off all the debt we owed God in perfect obedience to His person and His word.
It is impossible to approach the Creator God as sinful uncovenanted humans on our own terms. All we had to look forward to is death and hell.
Adam blew it for everyone, like it or not, youre now reaping what he sowed. The curse came upon the world. Sin entered the world, death came with it and now sin is so normal, so everyday, so present that many folks cannot imagine a God that is just, holy and good. They can only imagine a god like themselves that have no absolutes and like themselves love only themselves.
Jesus Christ was crucified because of the Father, Crushed, beaten, pierced because God wanted it that way. I for one, am responsible for God having to go to such an extent in pouring out his wrath on his own Son. Jesus Christ took my place. If he didnt redeem me by his own blood, I would have to stand before the great white throne of God and give account for all of my sins, all of them written in the books. I would then be thrown into the Lake of fire to exact the punishment due to me for sinning against so great a God in the face of so great warnings and threatenings. I would have to pay with my own blood, a debt that is so vast I must pay it every day through out eternity. Its inconceiveable the extent to which our sins have carried us away from God. But they have.
No, Jesus Christ undertook to do for me what was an utter impossibility, Jesus Christ took my sins upon himself, so that God could justly acquit this sinner and at the same time show Gods righteousness in doing so. Praise the glorious grace and mercy of God. Jesus Christ, deserves all glory and honor, praise and thanksgiving for he is worthy.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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