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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 6:31:02 PM
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ATtheCROSS923
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quote:
ORIGINAL: roxiesgarden
The answer is the scripture:John 3:16 teaches us: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The wonderful mercy of our father.
He created the world, he created us, we turned on him, and he still gives us Jesus so we can come home.
It still boggles my mind how much he loves us. God is love and forgiveness.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 6:39:37 PM
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CommonSense549
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If god is in control, then he can take those who are sinful and remove the sinfulness from them.
Take Lucifer for example. He did something bad. Why didn't god just change Lucifer into someone better, rather than casting him from heaven?
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Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 6:45:26 PM
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PinkCarnations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
If god is in control, then he can take those who are sinful and remove the sinfulness from them.
Take Lucifer for example. He did something bad. Why didn't god just change Lucifer into someone better, rather than casting him from heaven?
Satan chose not to be changed by God. There are many people who choose not to be changed by God too. God doesn't force Himself on anyone. It wouldn't be true love if He did.
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 6:52:57 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Because Jesus took upon himself the punishment of our sins. He fulfilled the requirements of our punishment, so we don't have to.
SINCE god has full control, why didn't he just remove the punishment of our sins on his own rather than subjecting his son to such morbid, needless pain?
Greetings
quote:
why didn't he just remove the punishment of our sins on his own rather than subjecting his son to such morbid, needless pain?
Let’s put it like this... because He endured the suffering, therefore the suffering becomes the witness to all those who are going to the eternal lake of fire, which means God will by no means punish those who have not accepted His Son Jesus Christ more than what Jesus endured.
Think of it as … justification.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 6:59:33 PM
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ATtheCROSS923
Posts: 134
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
If god is in control, then he can take those who are sinful and remove the sinfulness from them.
Take Lucifer for example. He did something bad. Why didn't god just change Lucifer into someone better, rather than casting him from heaven?
When we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior and become a knew creation in Christ, the Holy Spirit will help us to become more righteous...thus recognizing and removing sin from our lives. The problem is that most people will not admit that they are sinners and ruining their lives by living outside of Gods ways.
Lucifer is not the only one to ever do a bad thing, but he represents rebelion against God. Your choice is God or Lucifer. God wants us to have choice. It shows that we truly love him if we choose him over our other choice.
Like the story of the rebelious son.
The father let his son leave and experience the world, but when the boy returned home after he lost everything his father gave him, the father knew that his sons love for him had gone to a new level. He knew his son truly knew how good of a father he was.
I pray for you brother, that the seed all of us are planting in your heart starts to grow. That you see Jesus with his hand out, asking you if you want to finally come home.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 9:04:27 PM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
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quote:
When we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior and become a knew creation in Christ, the Holy Spirit will help us to become more righteous...thus recognizing and removing sin from our lives
The Lord has complete control. He has the ability to directly influence all of our minds so that we all believe in him. He can force that in us. Why doesn't he do it?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 9:12:51 PM
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ATtheCROSS923
Posts: 134
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
When we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior and become a knew creation in Christ, the Holy Spirit will help us to become more righteous...thus recognizing and removing sin from our lives
The Lord has complete control. He has the ability to directly influence all of our minds so that we all believe in him. He can force that in us. Why doesn't he do it?
Because we have to accept the calling God has put on us. God is calling us using Jesus. You can answer Gods call or you can ignore it and stay wrapped up in the world, its your choice. I will tell you one thing though, it is much more peaceful and joyfull walking with Jesus. The world is full of way to many sinful opportunities that cause way to much stress that I dont need. Eventually that stuff will destroy a human.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 9:27:42 PM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
Because we have to accept the calling God has put on us. God is calling us using Jesus. You can answer Gods call or you can ignore it and stay wrapped up in the world, its your choice.
I know that. What I'm wondering is why does it have to be that complicated? If god uses that method, not everyone will go along with it. Not everyone will believe the call. Lots of good, righteous, beautiful people will one day become poor souls burning in hell.
Why does god have to call us through Jesus? Why not just use his powers to save everyone in the world?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 9:55:37 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10995
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quote:
Why does god have to call us through Jesus? Why not just use his powers to save everyone in the world?
Did you not read the other posts?
_____________________________
LibriVox: acoustical liberation of books in the public domain
(Avatar: Turkeys are all saying "Moo")
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 9:56:08 PM
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ATtheCROSS923
Posts: 134
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Because we have to accept the calling God has put on us. God is calling us using Jesus. You can answer Gods call or you can ignore it and stay wrapped up in the world, its your choice.
I know that. What I'm wondering is why does it have to be that complicated? If god uses that method, not everyone will go along with it. Not everyone will believe the call. Lots of good, righteous, beautiful people will one day become poor souls burning in hell.
Why does god have to call us through Jesus? Why not just use his powers to save everyone in the world?
Why do you think it is so complicated? I think it is pretty simple myself. Dont try to make it to complicated. I believe that is the problem that most people have is that they try to make it to complicated. God said that his thoughts are above our thoughts. Do you really think you can figure out the mind of God.
Do you know why everyone wont "go along with it"? Because most people are self centered and think they are their own God. They trust and believe the "science of man".
God would love for everyone on the planet to be saved but it is just not possible(in my opinion) because humans are addicted to Pride, Lust, Greed, Hate etc. etc. Most humans have absolutely no self-control of their body's. They are controlled by the sinful desires of their flesh.
I dont know exactly how God will judge humans on that marvelous day.
All I really know is that my relationship with Jesus is the most important thing in my life. I have put my whole life in his hands and I am excited about my future.
Do you believe Jesus walked this earth? What do you believe about Jesus?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 10:43:24 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 2218
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
If god is in control, then he can take those who are sinful and remove the sinfulness from them.
Well... He... did. It's a legal thing: He declared us "not guilty" because our sins were substituted onto Christ, who then died to pay them off. We still have a part of us that sins but we confess it ("God, I sinned"), repent of it ("I turn away and don't want to do it anymore") and thank God that He forgave it. Then we're back in right relationship with God again. Most of us have to do this over and over; the rest are lying. 
BTW, sin is an archery term that means the bull's eye was missed. We miss the bull's eye of God's moral perfection.
God won't force you to do anything. When Adam and Eve sinned, they cast the whole human race into sin. There goes the neighborhood. God says we don't have to go to hell but He offers a way for us to go to heaven - through Jesus' sacrifice (sin can't go to heaven). We can take it or refuse it. The odd thing is, we don't want to take it unless God works in the dead part and makes us alive; then we can respond and want Him.
quote:
Take Lucifer for example. He did something bad. Why didn't god just change Lucifer into someone better, rather than casting him from heaven?
Because God doesn't force anyone to do anything - He wanted people, not robots. But He knows Satan's future, and He knows Satan/the devil will never turn back to God. Satan knows all about God but his morals are totally shot. So it's not knowledge that gets us to God but being spiritually alive. The spirit is the part of us that talks and responds positively to God.
If you look at the story of Satan falling from heaven, you see the five "I wills":
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Satan did what he wanted to do, and God didn't stop him. Read the whole story in Isaiah 14. Satan wanted to be God (idolatry - big sin) when he was just a created being (a fallen angel).
Here's something interesting: when we resist the devil, he has to flee. Cool! James 4:7 (so you can look it up yourself; people sometimes are wrong but the Bible isn't). If the devil bugs me and whispers attractive lies in my ear, I can tell him to buzz off in Jesus' name and he has to go.
If you want an inside look on how the devil works on people, C.S. Lewis wrote "The Screwtape Letters." Short, and pretty amusing, and right on. It's a fictionalized account of a demon teaching his nephew how to "manage" a human.  And yes, it's Christian.
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 7:13:00 AM
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cposey
Posts: 298
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Because we have to accept the calling God has put on us. God is calling us using Jesus. You can answer Gods call or you can ignore it and stay wrapped up in the world, its your choice.
I know that. What I'm wondering is why does it have to be that complicated? If god uses that method, not everyone will go along with it. Not everyone will believe the call. Lots of good, righteous, beautiful people will one day become poor souls burning in hell.
Why does god have to call us through Jesus? Why not just use his powers to save everyone in the world?
Try and look at it this way. God is perfect in all he does. From the forming of the world to forming of you. God has put into place a perfect law to try and keep his children near to HIS heart. However our hearts are deceitful to us. They will lead us to self indulge. You have to realize that God's powers are limitless, but as a great leader does, those powers are not forced onto anyone. God choose HIS own Son to become one of us and defeat, or overcome, the penalty for not following the perfect law that HE created. Jesus lived HIS entire life without sin. By choosing to die on the cross, Jesus took the place of the judgement of our sins against that law. HE sacrificed HIS perfect life so that we would have a way to spend eternity with God. HE then arose from the dead three days later, overcoming death itself. All that God asks anyone to do is believe this is true. To believe that someone(Jesus) who was absolutely perfect(the only person to follow the law perfectly) sacrificed his life so that we could be in fellowship and right standing with God by faith in Jesus. If God wanted to create robots, than HE would have created robots. However God created each of us uniquely. God wants nothing more than for you to have faith that HE loves us so much, that HE would sacrifice HIS Son to take the place of every bad thing we have ever done, without any strings attached. Hope this might give you some insight.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 7:36:06 AM
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adamnerin2
Posts: 5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Because we have to accept the calling God has put on us. God is calling us using Jesus. You can answer Gods call or you can ignore it and stay wrapped up in the world, its your choice.
I know that. What I'm wondering is why does it have to be that complicated? If god uses that method, not everyone will go along with it. Not everyone will believe the call. Lots of good, righteous, beautiful people will one day become poor souls burning in hell.
Why does god have to call us through Jesus? Why not just use his powers to save everyone in the world?
Sin seperates us from God. God hates sin, but not the sinner. God allowed Jesus to go through what he went through for a reason, and Jesus knew that he had to be crucified because that was the only way that we would ever be able to get back to God. But it's not just that, he covered everything. God lost a child, Jesus suffered, Jesus was mocked, and all of this was to show us that Jesus has already faced everything, and God is the answer. Look at it this way, God could save us all in an instant, but he gave us free will, and He is not going to force anyone to come to him. After all, he paid the ultimate price by giving His Son, what else should we want him to do?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 7:53:12 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
If god really has complete power, why didn't he stop Jesus's suffering?
God did not torture Jesus. Have you read the New Testament? If you have not read the New Testament or the Bible,
you cannot understand the nature of God or sin. Your question starts with the word 'if' which indicates a lack of belief
in God's attributes.
quote:
SINCE god has full control, why didn't he just remove the punishment of our sins on his own rather than subjecting his son to such morbid, needless pain?
You apparently already have your mind made up about God.....if God is God, do you really think you know better?
After reading your half dozen or so questions, it seems you question whether God actually is God...
I would like to ask you: What does the phrase 'in control' actually mean to you?
< Message edited by solarflare -- 10/20/2009 8:01:23 AM >
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Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 8:07:15 AM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10787
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
When we accept Jesus as our Lord and savior and become a knew creation in Christ, the Holy Spirit will help us to become more righteous...thus recognizing and removing sin from our lives
The Lord has complete control. He has the ability to directly influence all of our minds so that we all believe in him. He can force that in us. Why doesn't he do it?
When you love someone do you force them to think/act/talk/believe a certain way?
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 8:12:54 AM
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kmangel
Posts: 388
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
Why does god have to call us through Jesus? Why not just use his powers to save everyone in the world? What I'm wondering is why does it have to be that complicated? If god uses that method, not everyone will go along with it. Not everyone will believe the call.
Imagine there is someone who loves you and wants that you love them back. Can that person force you to love him/herself? No, of course not. God is the same. He wants people to willingly come to love Him. Otherwise we would all be like those dolls of yesterday--Chatty Cathy. Pull the string and the doll says "I love you." That's not real love. To truly love another person, including God, must be a free act on the part of the person and God.
God loves us regardless of what we have done--or haven't done. His love for us is not based on what we do but who we are. He wants us to come to that place where we both love Him and know Him, but He is not going to force us to love and know Him.
The Christian faith is not a denomination or a creed. It is not a set of do's and don'ts. It is a personal relationship with God. Religion says that to become acceptable to God we have to prove to Him our goodness--by living a good life, keeping certain rules or obeying the ten commandments. Some religions teach that this cannot be accomplished in one lifetime, so we have to live many lives until we are finally good enough to make it into Heaven. The problem with religion is that the Bible says if we are ever to become acceptable to God, we must be absolutely perfect. The Bible says "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) I know I'm not perfect. I assume you realize you're not perfect, too. So with knowing that, God has devised a plan to save us even though we are not perfect. That way is Jesus.
quote:
Lots of good, righteous, beautiful people will one day become poor souls burning in hell.
Freedom to choose to know and love God--or not-- is why all those good, righteous, beautiful people you are concerned about don't automatically gain access to Heaven. If religion is not the answer to this conundrum, then there has to be another way. If people are to come to know God here and now and live with Him in Heaven forever, there has to be some other way. That's why God calls us through Jesus.
< Message edited by kmangel -- 10/20/2009 8:20:13 AM >
_____________________________
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
--Mark Twain
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 8:16:17 AM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1546
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
Since god is in control, why did he allow sin to exist in the first place? Why didn't he just create man as perfect creatures who don't sin at all? Why did god even create the idea of pain, sadness, suffering etc. What good has all that done for the world? Why didn't god just create a perfect, happy world, instead of making it the complicated place it is?
I'm thinking about becoming a Christian right now, but I need a good reason to do it. I hear about a god who has watched all the terrible things that have happened to the world over the years without doing anything about those things when he could've easily fixed them. It's hard for me to follow someone like that.
If you want to understand the processes that seem confusing to you, you need to think in much longer terms and on a grander scale than your current thinking. You have to think in eternal terms and beyond the vastness of the existing universe. God does.
You sound like you view the God of eternity like the Romans viewed their gods... super humans. And, that is NOT the case.
You are in the midst of an eternal lesson on the stupidity and consequences of rebelling against God. At some point this demonstration will be completed and from that point on not a single being will EVER rebel against God again.
In our short lives there are many times when we choose to accept pain for the greater good of the long term. It can be the pain of removing a splinter. Or, the pain of an operation. It can even be the pain of enduring being jailed in a horrible place that results in changing the rest of your life. That is exactly where we, as humans, are now in the long term, eternal plans of God.
It would do us no good to be taken up to be with God forever if, in the future, that peaceful existence were to be threatened by rebellion against God as has happened in the past. So, God is letting the whole sordid results of rebellion play out to its logical and innevitable conclusion so that NO ONE... EVER... IN ALL ETERNITY... will make that terrible mistake again. Short term pain (and by short term I mean thousands of years) will result in billions upon billions of years of peace for God's creatures.
I urge you to start thinking on a grander scale when it comes to trying to consider God's motives and workings. Taking a splinter out hurts. But, it's only a few seconds or a minute in a lifetime of minutes. That is the kind of perspective you need to develope.
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 8:36:55 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 269
Joined: 4/28/2008
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I think it shows how much God hates sin and how much He loves us. Even as believers we never trully understand just how evil and nasty sin is. God hates sin. God is just and holy and he delcared that the payment for sin is death. And we sinned and He loved us even while we were in our sins. He loved us so much that He sent His Son to pay that debt we owed. Oh the love of God, THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU LORD!!!!!! "How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!" - Psalm 32:1-2
While I was typing this it made me think of the song "The love of God"
The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell;
It goes beyond the highest star,
And reaches to the lowest hell;
The guilty pair, bowed down with care,
God gave His Son to win;
His erring child He reconciled,
And pardoned from his sin.
Refrain:
Oh, love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!
It shall forevermore endure—
The saints’ and angels’ song.
When hoary time shall pass away,
And earthly thrones and kingdoms fall,
When men who here refuse to pray,
On rocks and hills and mountains call,
God’s love so sure, shall still endure,
All measureless and strong;
Redeeming grace to Adam’s race—
The saints’ and angels’ song.
Could we with ink the ocean fill,
And were the skies of parchment made,
Were every stalk on earth a quill,
And every man a scribe by trade;
To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry;
Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
Though stretched from sky to sky.
_____________________________
Some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell; I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell."
- C.L. Studd
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 9:09:58 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
After reading your half dozen or so questions, it seems you question whether God actually is God...
I would like to ask you: What does the phrase 'in control' actually mean to you? I think "in control" means to this person a micromanaging of every infinitesimal detail.
He questions WHY God has chosen what he sees as a circuitous and inefficient method of free will and believing in Jesus for salvation rather that what he sees as the more efficient method of just forcing everyone into obedience. By doing that, everyone would be saved.
He is not qestioning if God is God, but rather if God is God, why does He not act like a despot?
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 10:27:52 AM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
Joined: 9/28/2009
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quote:
When you love someone do you force them to think/act/talk/believe a certain way?
That's exactly what god has done. He instilled in me a certain personality. The nature of that personality dictates all the choices I make.
So, yes, god controls me. In a few minutes, I'm going to go and order a white chocolate mocha from Starbuck's. God has complete control over the fact that I'm going to make that choice. You want to know how? When god created me, he gave me taste buds that favored white chocolate mochas over any other drink. By giving me taste buds with a preference for white mocha, god controlled the fact that I've been spending my whole life up to this point drinking white mocha.
So, yes, god controls me.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 10:59:23 AM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2105
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
When you love someone do you force them to think/act/talk/believe a certain way?
That's exactly what god has done. He instilled in me a certain personality. The nature of that personality dictates all the choices I make.
So, yes, god controls me. In a few minutes, I'm going to go and order a white chocolate mocha from Starbuck's. God has complete control over the fact that I'm going to make that choice. You want to know how? When god created me, he gave me taste buds that favored white chocolate mochas over any other drink. By giving me taste buds with a preference for white mocha, god controlled the fact that I've been spending my whole life up to this point drinking white mocha.
So, yes, god controls me.
I hear what you're saying. Before I accepted Christ as Savior and Lord, many things about God I tried to reason out. Probably gave myself many a headache! 
At some point, faith will have to take over for you to understand more about who God is -- His character. Some (if not many) things about Him seem to defy logic.
I'm not where you are in the journey of faith, but hey, you've got great taste in coffee!! I'd join ya in a Venti White Chocolate Mocha if I were there. <insert happy java junkie smace here>
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 11:47:24 AM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
Joined: 9/28/2009
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quote:
Yet you have the choice not to go to Starbuck's. You don't HAVE to go. What if you lived in a country without Starbucks? Then God wouldn't be "controlling you" in how you get that coffee
A. God would've controlled, either directly or indirectly, the fact that this country you're talking about doesn't have coffee. So, yes, god would indeed be in control of whatever course of action I took if I lived in that country.
B. Read my posts more carefully. I said it before, and I'll expand on it now. Every choice I make is a product of the personality god instilled in me when I was born, and the factors around me that god controls. That means that god is responsible for every choice I make. So, if I choose not to go to Starbuck's, god is responsible for that decision.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 11:50:52 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10995
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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So, interpolating, you're suggesting that God is controlling you such that He makes you sin, so it's unfair He should punish you?
Please tell me that's not what you're suggesting.
_____________________________
LibriVox: acoustical liberation of books in the public domain
(Avatar: Turkeys are all saying "Moo")
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/20/2009 12:06:04 PM
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CommonSense549
Posts: 92
Joined: 9/28/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
So, interpolating, you're suggesting that God is controlling you such that He makes you sin
I would think it's quite obvious that's what I've been suggesting. Now, can you give me any logical points to refute what I've said, rather than relying on phrases such as "Please tell me that's not what you're suggesting" to make up for your lack of an argument?
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You don't HAVE to go. What if you lived in a country without Starbucks? Then God wouldn't be "controlling you" in how you get that coffee.