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Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/18/2009 8:48:19 PM
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CommonSense549
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If god really has complete power, why didn't he stop Jesus's suffering?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/18/2009 9:20:31 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Because Jesus took upon himself the punishment of our sins. He fulfilled the requirements of our punishment, so we don't have to.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/18/2009 9:26:27 PM
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LCannon
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'If'. Spoken like a true skeptic. A better question is Since God has absolute(complete)power why didn't he stop Jesus' suffering? 'Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses(the OT saints including Jesus as just sacrifice by virtue of his obedience to the Father thus his Victory is secure and unchallenged)let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God.'(Hebrews 12:1,2) The 'if' question' shows the limitation one's imagination.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 10/19/2009 11:38:21 AM >
_____________________________
'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' (Joshua 1:5)
''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/18/2009 9:59:32 PM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
Because Jesus took upon himself the punishment of our sins. He fulfilled the requirements of our punishment, so we don't have to.
SINCE god has full control, why didn't he just remove the punishment of our sins on his own rather than subjecting his son to such morbid, needless pain?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/18/2009 10:20:05 PM
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makarizo
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I think Isaiah 53 gives an adequate explanation for that question.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/18/2009 10:33:22 PM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
SINCE god has full control, why didn't he just remove the punishment of our sins on his own rather than subjecting his son to such morbid, needless pain?
Needless? If God did it, it wasn't needless. God is bigger and deeper than you think He is or I think He is - we're just finite creatures.
The Scriptures say God the Father poured out His wrath on Jesus (instead of on you and me), which had to be worse than the physical pain.
Sin needs death to forgive it - that's been the plan all along. The whole Old Testament sacrificial system was just to help us get the idea. Jesus was the Passover Lamb, slain for the world, and the only forgiveness for sin.
Here's another thing that rocks me back on my heels - not only could God the Father have stopped the crucifixion, but Jesus could have, too. But He didn't - He endured the pain voluntarily. Whoo!
He wanted to buy us out of the slave market of sin, and this was the only way. He volunteered for our benefit.
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/18/2009 10:46:50 PM
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meghahome
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god could never torture Jesus.
But God The Father permitted Him to suffer in your place so that you never perish but have life eternal.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/18/2009 10:56:32 PM
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sue244
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Because Justice demands a payment and Jesus who is God took the punishment for you and I so that justice could be satisfied
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 12:24:13 AM
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ATtheCROSS923
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Jesus could have stopped the whole process at any time, himself. God loves us so much that he allowed the sin inside the hearts of evil, prideful, greedy men to kill Jesus.
Jesus was the ultimate, perfect sacrifice. Since the blood of God was shed, we will never need another sacrifice if we believe in Jesus as Lord and savior...its done, Jesus finished it for us.
The fact that God let his son be sacrificed on my account, or your account should tell you how much God loves you. Gods ultimate goal is to bring us home to him, and he showed us how much mercy he has on his creation.
Jesus is the answer that we dont deserve. Jesus is the doorway for us to have a relationship with Daddy.
Most people think it is such a horrible thing that Jesus was beaten, spit on, whiped and crucified....but it is the greatest love story in all of creation cause he did it for you and me. Jesus wanted to do it. The thing that was the toughest for Jesus to go through was the seperation he felt when God was judging all the sin on him.
If you are a believer walking with Jesus, answer me this question.... Have you ever sinned and felt that seperation from God? Imagine that feeling (times 1 million). That is probably how Jesus felt.
He did it for us.
< Message edited by ATtheCROSS923 -- 10/19/2009 12:30:30 AM >
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 12:31:14 AM
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manhattan42
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"God' did not torture Jesus so...
"YOU" did...because of your sins!
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 12:37:51 AM
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Walker311
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There are few that can correctly wrap their minds around the reason why.
It was the only way. His death was what it would take for you and I to believe... nothing less. If Jesus had lived to be an old man, it would not have worked. If He had suffered but spared from dying on the cross, it would not have worked. In this situation, human beings require blood, suffering, and death. If God had not come in the flesh, He would have needed to create us as robots.
We have opportunity to contemplate all that Jesus did from birth to the cross and then we are allowed to choose. Grasping and accepting that our creator would willingly suffer to such an extent as this is incredible but it was necessary and a perfect design.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 2:53:34 AM
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kisstheson
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maybe you'll find the answer in this poem I wrote...
Jesus speaks:
Gently I carried My cross so close to My heart,
You must know beloved, of that would you were a part
Every shame, every sin,
Every hardship was etched within
Every tear that stained your face
Stained the cross upon My shoulder’s placed.
With every painful step, friend and foe alike,
As the soldiers hammered the sharpened spikes,
All besought Me…”lay the cross down! Let go! Let go!”
Ah…the strength of a lover’s passion they did not know.
I had vowed My love long before time was begun.
How I loved you with each rising sun!
I carved your face in redemption’s plan,
Long before a nail ever broke My hand.
The cross, My body pressing, pressed you.
All your sorrows I intimately knew.
And loving you beyond what mortals dare,
Boundless, limitless, My heart I did not spare.
Piercing My heart, a soldier’s spear,
I opened My side to hold you near!
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This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 3:07:18 AM
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CommonSense549
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quote:
Sin needs death to forgive it - that's been the plan all along.
Since god has complete control, why didn't he just forgive the sin himself?
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 5:54:02 AM
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Robin-again
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I believe God did it to show us He is Real. He is Love. He is the Light, and the way for us to become whole. He is our Father in Heaven.
Of all the deaths that God could have chosen to let us know we are Loved, and giving us Jesus as a Best Friend so that we'll not ever to feel alone, this was the death He had chosen to get our attention.
_____________________________
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If we don't feel close to Him we are the ones that walked away. He is still right beside us.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 7:25:56 AM
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leftwing
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Who can really know the mind of God; or His ways and/or thoughts? Man? No.
But we can look at Jesus' sacrifice from our perspective and read what the bible says. I think the latter has been discussed here. But what of the human perspective?
Jesus is King, correct? What is the most important quality of a King? To be respected. Who on God's earth couldn't respect a man who innocently gave up his life in a most terrible way for all of us?
If Jesus would have shortened the torture, flung himself down from the cross and declared himself king, would you have the respect for him as you do now?
I say no.
This is all just me jabbering. I'm not a theologian by any means and really not a very good Christian, but I love Jesus and what he did for me and you. And I pray daily. And I try to discern what Jesus wants us to do by what he did and what he was quoted as having said.
Jesus lives. 
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 8:28:10 AM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
Since god has complete control, why didn't he just forgive the sin himself?
Would he be a righteous and just God if he let sin go unpunished?
He's a holy God - perfect - who cannot endure the taint of sin. If He could, He wouldn't be holy and perfect and righteous.
God cannot do something that's contrary to His nature. Therefore, sin must be punished.
_____________________________
LibriVox: acoustical liberation of books in the public domain
(Avatar: Turkeys are all saying "Moo")
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 11:40:27 AM
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LCannon
Posts: 1133
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Because Jesus took upon himself the punishment of our sins. He fulfilled the requirements of our punishment, so we don't have to.
SINCE god has full control, why didn't he just remove the punishment of our sins on his own rather than subjecting his son to such morbid, needless pain?
Hebrews 9:24-'For[this]Christ Jesus did not enter a sanctuary made by human hands, a mere copy of the true one, but he entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year after year with blood that is not his own; 26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself.' 'In this you rejoice, even if now for a little while you have had to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith--being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire--may be found to result in praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.'(1Peter 1:6 ,7)
_____________________________
'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' (Joshua 1:5)
''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 1:22:39 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Sin needs death to forgive it - that's been the plan all along.
Since god has complete control, why didn't he just forgive the sin himself?
* the wages of sin is death
* Jesus had to die in order to bring about forgiveness in the first place
* God cannot go against His own character...if He already said something (i.e. wages of sin is death...), He cannot go against it.
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 2:00:54 PM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
quote:
Sin needs death to forgive it - that's been the plan all along.
Since god has complete control, why didn't he just forgive the sin himself?
Excellent question, CommonSense. There are a couple answers I know, and many I don't know but maybe you'll discover.
#1 - the Bible says Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world was created. That means, before there were any people around to sin. God had a plan, and executed it (pun intended) before there was ever a problem. There's something far deeper here I don't get, but the superficial stuff is enough picture.
#2 God set the cosmos up to run this way. Why, I dunno. We know God is everlasting - no beginning or end - and that He is totally moral, so maybe this is the only moral way a world can be. But whether that conclusion is true or not, it is how God set it up. <shrug> OK, He's God, it's His choice.
For some reason, the God who is three Persons but one God (figure that one out!  ) created mankind who is one person each - different from Him in that respect but like Him in the communicable attributes (things we can be like Him: morality, some of the creativity, loving others, etc.). He spent a couple millennia convincing us that we were sinners (because the first two people totally blew it) and sin separated us from God and only death would pay for it; but hey, death separated us from God, too. But we could substitute an innocent life for our own to pay for sin. In the Old Testament, it was a innocent sheep or goat or cow that died for the guilty person. In the NT, it was God become the perfect Man that died for the guilty world. The Kinsman Redeemer (more deep stuff) received all God's wrath that should have been poured out on us. It was the Great Switch - the innocent for the guilty, death for life.
It cost Him a lot. And you're right, Jesus was tortured to death. Awful, awful way to die. He said He could call 10,000 angels to rescue Him but He didn't do that - He died voluntarily. For love of you - He wants you back. 
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 3:05:50 PM
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CommonSense549
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Since god is in control, why did he allow sin to exist in the first place? Why didn't he just create man as perfect creatures who don't sin at all? Why did god even create the idea of pain, sadness, suffering etc. What good has all that done for the world? Why didn't god just create a perfect, happy world, instead of making it the complicated place it is?
I'm thinking about becoming a Christian right now, but I need a good reason to do it. I hear about a god who has watched all the terrible things that have happened to the world over the years without doing anything about those things when he could've easily fixed them. It's hard for me to follow someone like that.
< Message edited by CommonSense549 -- 10/19/2009 3:12:10 PM >
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 5:14:43 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
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quote:
Why didn't he just create man as perfect creatures who don't sin at all? Why did god even create the idea of pain, sadness, suffering etc. What good has all that done for the world? Why didn't god just create a perfect, happy world, instead of making it the complicated place it is?
And He did...but the devil tempted Adam and Eve and they chose to sin against God. And now we live in a fallen world with death, disease, lots of sin, etc. I don't think it's really that complicated.
quote:
'm thinking about becoming a Christian right now, but I need a good reason to do it.
Just off the top of my head...NOT spending eternity in hell seems to be a good reason.
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 6:02:23 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 2216
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
Why didn't he just create man as perfect creatures who don't sin at all? Why did god even create the idea of pain, sadness, suffering etc. What good has all that done for the world? Why didn't god just create a perfect, happy world, instead of making it the complicated place it is?
And He did...but the devil tempted Adam and Eve and they chose to sin against God. And now we live in a fallen world with death, disease, lots of sin, etc. I don't think it's really that complicated.
quote:
'm thinking about becoming a Christian right now, but I need a good reason to do it.
Just off the top of my head...NOT spending eternity in hell seems to be a good reason.
Doinkdom's reply is hard to beat.
Here's what's weird about the whole thing, CommonSense: God didn't tell us everything. He told us some things, like, death pays for sin and a substitute works fine if it's perfect. He didn't tell us other things, like, how did evil first get into His perfect creation? The Bible doesn't say, and that's the only authoritative source of information we've got. So if the Bible doesn't say, we don't know. <shrug> We've got plenty to work with with the stuff He did tell us.
Why did we become Christians? Different reasons for different people (because God meets people where they are). A really good book (small paperback) if you want to look at the logical reasons is "More Than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. You could get it though interlibrary loan; maybe for free or maybe a couple of bucks.
quote:
I hear about a god who has watched all the terrible things that have happened to the world over the years without doing anything about those things when he could've easily fixed them. It's hard for me to follow someone like that.
Turn this around for another POV: how could God know all the cruelty and pain and not blast the whole earth and shelve the human thing boggles my mind. He'd have to be God to do that. I sure couldn't.
He wanted to save the world as it was literally going to hell. How did He do it? Legions of angels with SCUD missles and hydrogen bombs? No... He became a man and died in substitution for the world. For love. Wow. It's still going on... love changes things.
I used to have a pastor who taught a Bible study on a military base in the Philippines. When there was an uprising against the government, the president of the Philippines sent a bunch of tanks to kill the crowd and put the uprising down. The tank guys talked it over and did nothing. They had been in that Bible study and knew they couldn't mow down citizens, and a whole regime change resulted. It wasn't the whole battle, but it was a pivotal part. The pastor's name was Anada Perera, and he's in heaven now, and he knew first hand love makes a difference in this world.
I miss his jokes, too. :*)
This was part of the whole regime change of Feb. 1986. You can read about it here: http://www.fragmentsweb.org/TXT2/philiptx.html
< Message edited by deermousie -- 10/19/2009 6:43:27 PM >
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 6:13:02 PM
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mvic
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No doubt we can try to fathom out God's reasons for Christ's Birth, death and Resurrection; and all we'd be doing is second guess Him. We can't possibly know and understand His divine plan. We're not meant to.
Let's consider what we know from the Bible.
Originally God spoke to people through the prophets, through Abraham, Moses, etc ... but generally people did not listen.
So God came Himself on earth so that we may see Him, live with Him, speak and listen to Him. He came as a vulnerable baby and grew up amongst people like you and me until He was ready for His mission of teaching us personally.
Let's look at the alternative. Jesus could have come as a Superman. Already grown up, powerful, omnipotent and ready to make us submit to His teachings by threats and punishments - like in the Old Testamnet but this time it's Him in person. No need for a spokesman like Moses !!!
The people would have been in awe and sure enough they would have believed through fear. Hardly Free Will - is it?
Instead God chose the loving way - a vulnerable baby, growing amongst us, teaching us God's Word yet at all times a human, as well as God.
Being human He shared our emotions, our feelings, our pains and our death.
And when death was complete - as it will happen to all of us one day - God showed and proved His power and glory by raising Him up again. As He will do to us one day.
That's why He had to suffer torture and die. In order to be human like us. In order to share our feelings and pain. In order to die like us. And for God to raise Him again.
The alternative of an un-dying superman would not have brought Christ to our human level.
And through His human death He paid for our sins to be forgiven.
I hope this helps, just a little.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 6:19:20 PM
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ATtheCROSS923
Posts: 134
Joined: 2/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CommonSense549
Since god is in control, why did he allow sin to exist in the first place? Why didn't he just create man as perfect creatures who don't sin at all? Why did god even create the idea of pain, sadness, suffering etc. What good has all that done for the world? Why didn't god just create a perfect, happy world, instead of making it the complicated place it is?
I'm thinking about becoming a Christian right now, but I need a good reason to do it. I hear about a god who has watched all the terrible things that have happened to the world over the years without doing anything about those things when he could've easily fixed them. It's hard for me to follow someone like that.
God is in control.
He created Angels before all of us and one of them named Lucifer thought that he could be like God. God cast Lucifer out of Heaven, and Lucifer took alot of Gods Angels with him who were also Evil. God gives his creation free will to worship him or not to worship him, freedom to be obedient or to not be obedient. Thank God that he didnt make you like a robot because then you would be forced to worship him. I worship him willingly but you know what I am saying.
Adam and Eve took the bait from Lucifer and the rest is history. God wants us to return to him and do it by our own free will.
The birth of Jesus has been protected and planned from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, The 12 tribes, King David, and on to Mary.
When someone from the Old Testament sinned, they had to give an offering, something of value to them.
God offered Jesus as the payment for all sin. He gave something of tremendous value to Him(the second person of the trinity).
Just because God is in control doesnt mean bad things wont happen. Evil is still in the world. Humans have a choice, to follow Gods ways or the worlds ways(the world is the devils playground, which Im sure you already know).
A very powerful storm came upon the boat the disciples and Jesus were in one day. The storm was so powerful that the disciples thought they were gonna drown.*** The funny thing about this story is that our Lord and Savior was asleep on a pillow. That storm certainly wouldnt disturb the creator of everything. I think Jesus wanted to see how the faith of his disciples was growing....it wasnt growing to much cause they woke him and spoke their concerns about drowning.
My point is this, just because the God of all creation is sitting in your boat doesnt mean storms wont come your way.
The disciples saw Jesus, they could have touched him and they still had a storm that scared the heck out of them...they thought they were gonna die....but Jesus woke up and calmed the storm.
God didnt create pain, suffering, sadness etc.... Try to find any pain, sadness, suffering etc in the garden before the fall. God had planned humans to live a life were we were living dependent on him and obedient to him because we love him. God is perfect and just in every sense of the word. He cannot have anything to do with sin, its completely against his nature. All of us fall very, very short of the glory of God.
That is were our lovely, beautiful, awesome savior Jesus comes in. God wants us to come home and the only way he can look at us is through the righteousness of Jesus. We are righteous to God when we are holding the hand of Jesus. Isnt that awesome I love you Jesus.
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RE: Why did god torture jesus so? - 10/19/2009 6:22:30 PM
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roxiesgarden
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The answer is the scripture:John 3:16 teaches us: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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roxie
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