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The Case for an American Babylon - 10/17/2009 11:52:16 AM
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gone2pot
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The Case for an American Babylon
Revelation chapter 18 details the judgment coming to Mystery Babylon. The timing of that judgment is not specific but since she must be destroyed before the antichrist sets up his power structure, mystery Babylon exists just prior the beginning of, and for a short time into Daniel’s 70th week.
This is not to argue or debate with scholarly opinion of who Babylon is and when Babylon will come about on the earth. This opinion suggests the identity of Babylon can be determined by looking at her judgments and the reasons for those judgments detailed in Revelation 18. It might be arguable that mystery Babylon is destroyed before the antichrist's power structure is set up, since the ten horns give their authority to the seventh head in exchange for ruling with him for one hour and they are on the head when the harlot is attacked. [Revelation 17: 12, 13]
There is also one very important principle that is assumed in the case for an American Babylon and that is the doctrine of dispensations. The author assumes the reader has a knowledge and understanding of this doctrine. Without it, none of the following is valid nor makes sense, especially in light of how the individual believer functions in God’s time periods (dispensations). For a good depiction of dispensations can be found at http://rbthieme.org/the1.htm.
Mystery Babylon is a hegemony; a world power with influences and the means to project influence throughout the world. Revelation 18:18(NKJV): “And the woman you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Hegemonies throughout world history have reigned by fear, intimidation, death and by conquering less powerful states to establish their power. Assyria, Rome and Great Britain are examples.
Mystery Babylon however does not use military force to intimidate or force other nations to submit to her. Her relationship and power influence with the world is like no other in world history. Mystery Babylon uses wealth and trade to rule over other nations. Revelation 18:3 (NKJV): “For all the nations have drunk the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.” The establishment and protection of trade and the absence of conquering or intimidating nations to project her power makes Babylon unique in world history. There is only one Mystery Babylon and no other nation is or will be like her.
Notice in Revelation 18:3a, “all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her.” The nations freely and willingly partake without fear and without being forced. They choose to have relations with her. Why?
Revelation 18:3b (NKJV): “and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.” Babylon is able to overflow her wealth, her riches and her ability to make bountiful international transactions so much so that all the nations of the earth become rich as well. Since “merchants of the earth” are described, some would also live in or be from Mystery Babylon. There is a wonderful wealth spreading party taking place throughout the world and for the first time in world history, all the people on earth are influenced and can partake of her wealth.
Mystery Babylon is a nation that lives luxuriously and glorifies not God for the blessings, but herself; her own abilities, strengths, commerce, trade, communications, transportation, and political leadership. In Babylon’s mind, she became great, not through the result of blessings from God, but through the results of her own abilities. Revelation 18:7b: “for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will see no sorrow.’”
Babylon is also a world trade hegemony. She buys goods and services from all over the world and the world relies on her as the source for their own wealth. Revelation 18:11b: “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore.” Babylon is the main source of the wealth of the nation’s merchants. Every nation’s merchants trade goods and services with Mystery Babylon.
What kind of merchandise and services does Babylon buy? Revelation 18:12 and 13 contains a list of the goods and services Babylon buys from merchants throughout the world. The list is most impressive and contains high end products. Basic staples are not listed. All items are high end, requiring lots of added value to produce them. This is what makes Babylon a “one off” in history.
Who produces “gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron and marble; and cinnamon and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men?” People do. Workers do. Employees in factories from all over the word do. Babylon creates jobs for people throughout the world, and thus providing a means of income.
It doesn’t mean those nations allow their people––workers––to keep the incomes of the labor they provide. Some may and some may not. Babylon however, is the reason why so many nations throughout the world have a higher standard of living; so much so that without Babylon in the world, “merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing.” Revelation 18:15.
Notice why the merchants are weeping and wailing in Revelation 18:19. “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’” They are sad, not because they care about Babylon but because their main buyer can no longer buy all the goods and services they have been producing. They throw dust on their heads, not because they are sad that people are dead and Babylon suffered a great destruction and judgment but because they have companies, banks, factories, workers and commerce that must come to an end. A lot of investments worldwide based on Babylon’s wealth have become instantly worthless.
What does Babylon do? Does she conquer? Does she spend her time absorbing other nations like all other hegemonies in history? Verses 18: 22 and 23 tell us how Babylon spends her time. Entertainment, non-essential items, and factories producing foods are named as activities in which Babylon partakes, “sounds of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters…craftsman…sound of a millstone.”
Babylon produces massive amounts of energy to light herself up; “light of a lamp.” She spends her time looking forward to the future. Marriage is one way to demonstrate confidence that tomorrow is going to come and “the voice of bridegroom and bride” depicts a normal flow of activity, celebration and lack of want. Babylon’s merchants were great men who created great commerce worldwide. However, something nefarious occurred in business relationships because “by your sorcery (deceptions and seductions of things pointing away from a knowledge and relationship with God) all the nations were deceived (led away into error and sin).
The above paragraphs list a set of conditions, all of which must be found in one nation or one state in order to determine the identity of Mystery Babylon. Revelation 18 makes the conditions quite clear. If a nation possesses some of them, most of them, or all but one of them, she cannot be Mystery Babylon. Find the nation who possess them all and you’ve found her.
It is critically important to keep in mind that the set of conditions are not things that can take place overnight, nor in just two or three decades. These kinds of conditions are established over several decades, not overnight, not even in seven years.
We aren’t told how Babylon got to where she is in Revelation 18 but we can see she is most certainly the greatest power on earth economically. She must also have great military defense capabilities since no other nation is strong enough to simply conquer her and steal her economic power.
How can we know with absolute certainty who Babylon is? Look at the landscape of history, find the nation that possesses all the conditions listed in Revelation 18 regarding why she is to be judged and you’ll have your Mystery Babylon. Keep in mind, Babylon is a set of conditions found in some nation that did not exist at the time John wrote Revelation. Find the conditions that exist before the judgments and therefore exist at the end of the Church Age, and you’ve found Mystery Babylon.
We can ask ourselves, how could a nation achieve such power without overthrowing other nations? The answer is to simply look at the United States; presently, the only hegemony in the world at this writing. So far the United States is the only nation-state in history who has become so without conquering or overthrowing other nations.
The United States’ beginnings are based on Scripture. It is not arguable that colonial pastors in the late 18th century wrote about freedom and free enterprise based on Scripture. Ayn Rand notwithstanding, the Founding Fathers used these writings of pastors, based on Scripture to write the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. These things were done openly, with purpose and clarity. One has only to read published sermons and published words of the Founding Fathers to know that we were founded a Judeo-Christian nation. The blessings of divinely established means of prosperity are based on God’s Word, not on an Atlas that is shrugging.
However, it does not take spiritual rocket science to figure out that at this time, the United States is anything but a Judeo-Christian nation. In fact for the past 50 years, the United States has turned away from God at exponential rates, so much so that it would not surprise me if God Himself wanted to have His name removed from the dollar. We, as a nation, most certainly do not trust in God. But how does this make the case for an American Babylon?
No where in Revelation 17 and 18 does God tell us specifically who Babylon is. Many scholars believe she is Jerusalem or Rome, or some nation in Europe or Europe itself or even the Catholic Church. The scholarship is good but two similar mistakes are made with all of them. One, they cross dispensational barriers. The Church Age that began most likely at Pentecost was not known by any Old Testament believers, not one.
When the Lord spoke, He did not reveal to anyone the Church Age or things that would happen in the Church Age until after Judas left the Upper Room and then He only hinted at the future new spiritual conditions; the coming of the Holy Spirit for example. Things spoken of in the Church Age in the New Testament (not including the Gospels) were never mentioned in the Old Testament. God said it was a mystery. If He said it was, then it was and no amount of pretzel twisting on our part is going to change that fact. The two ages are separate and distinct in function and in prophecy.
The second mistake is almost not a mistake. They claim that the United States is mentioned nowhere in prophecy. Except for the colors, dark blue (purple; there simply is no word in the ancient Greek for dark blue which is why purple is the closest color to it), red and white mentioned three times in Revelation 17 and 18, there is no hint of a nation located in the western hemisphere let alone the northern hemisphere. That’s true. They are correct.
After Revelation 3, after the Lord’s letters to the seven churches, John no longer speaks of things about the Church Age. Beginning in chapter 4, the Church is no longer part of human history with respect to things that happen on the earth. There is no more mention of the church on the earth because she has been Raptured, she is found in heaven, represented by the 24 elders surrounding Christ’s throne, [Revelation 4:4]. When John speaks of things occurring on earth from Revelation 4 until the end of the book, he only speaks about Daniel’s 70th week which includes the last 3 ½ years known as the Great Tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom.
Beginning with Revelation 4, anything John says about events happening on the earth, can only occur during the last seven years of human history or Daniel’s 70th week or the last seven years of the Age of Israel. The church is never mentioned again as being on the earth. She can’t be. She’s not there. Her earthly history is over and she is living in eternal realms.
So, how can Mystery Babylon be the United States if Church Age things are no longer spoken of by John? Because; the reasons she is to be judged are the things mentioned about her that are past tense and those reasons or set of conditions took place at the end of the Church Age. The present tense judgments happening in Revelation 18 occur in the 70th week or the Age of Israel. The set of conditions that would result in Babylon’s judgment took place before the 70th week and existed at the end of the Church Age.
Remember, it is impossible for the set of conditions to just pop up in a few short weeks or months at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. It had to take several decades to create the set of conditions that would result in God’s judgment of Babylon. So, the scholars are correct. The United States is not specifically mentioned in prophecy. But the historic set of conditions that only Mystery Babylon possesses and now the United States possesses is mentioned. What specific things has the United States done to meet the conditions necessary to deserve God’s judgment of her?
Starting with Revelation 18:2, she “has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird.” What in the world does that mean? Are birds good or bad? Are unclean and hated birds good or bad? Why do they dwell in Babylon? Why do foul spirits dwell in Babylon and what is a foul spirit? And why in the world do demons dwell in her? What would Babylon have to do to make it so comfy cozy for these three life things (demons; foul spirits; unclean and hated birds) to live in her? What kind of conditions must exist for those three bad things to feel at ease dwelling in or influencing us as believers?
According to “Connections: a guide to types and symbols in the Bible” by Glen Carpenter, Babylon’s unclean and hated birds refer to a mixture of demonic and human activity, the birds suggest the trappings of the souls of men (page 297). Drug addiction to alcoholism to pornography (sex outside of marriage) are trappings of the souls of men but anything that replaces God in our lives can be a trapping of our soul. Could a caged bird represent a television, movie or computer screen?
Video games, entertainment, television, sports, internet surfing can be wonderful things. However, if they become replacements for daily meditation, lead us to sin or keep us from learning and applying God’s Word, we are in danger of having trapped souls. One doesn’t have to think too hard to wonder whether or not a vast majority of Americans have trapped souls. My guess is the percentages of Americans with trapped souls would be in the low nineties at best.
Next in Revelation 18:3, we see the wine of the wrath of her fornications. What is fornication or in Greek porneia? It is breaking an oath, promise or contract whether or not all parties are aware that one or more parties did the breaking. Has the United States made oaths, promises and contracts with other nations? It has in very complex ways all having to do with commerce, banking and trading of currencies and debt investments. To go into the details of the recent banking crisis are beyond the scope of this reading. However, there are good resources available to understand it very clearly. The best overall is Dr. Thomas Sowell’s, The Housing Boom and Bust
From a recent New York Post article is the following:
quote:
There are, of course, many villains responsible for the financial implosion that occurred around this time last year — Stan O’Neal, Jimmy Cayne and Dick Fuld chief among them for their risk-taking folly. Rep. Barney Frank and the Housing secretaries of the Clinton and Bush years, of course, believed so fervently that “owning” a home was a right that they enabled Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to guarantee more and more risky loans for people who had no means to repay them.
And let us not forget the greedy investment bankers who sold the notion that the risk of default could be eliminated by packaging these loans into mortgage-backed securities — or the feckless bond-rating agencies that slapped all those Triple-A ratings on this debt while raking in huge fees and massive profits that have never been returned.
The second paragraph is most telling. To understand numerically the size and scope of the faithlessness, more accurately, the wanton deception; promise, oath and contract breaking, visit www.usdebtclock.org . You will see accurate amounts of debt that can never be repaid, no matter how much we think we can tax future generations. The unfunded mandates of 59 trillion dollars alone make it virtually impossible.
Yet, we continue to believe as a nation that going further and further into debt will somehow get us out of debt. We have taken other nations with us. In fact, we have led them into believing that we will make good on our promises while at the same time demonstrating otherwise. Proof of that is included in the estimated currency and credit derivatives number of 645 trillion dollars.
An estimated 50 trillion dollars worldwide was lost due to the sub-prime housing crisis of 2007 and 2008 according to a study done by the Asian Development Bank. There were not 50 trillion dollars in bad loans, only about one half to one trillion represent loans. However, the worldwide debt investment based on the sub-prime loans totaled 50 trillion in losses in global investment markets. The United States ruled over the nations, not with weapons but with a false sense of trust and economic might, just like Mystery Babylon.
Still, the nations of the earth are rich from the abundance of her luxury. And instead of coming clean with the worldwide deception, the United States and the rest of the world are continuing on the exact same path that brought on tens of trillions in global losses. In fact, the world’s “only hope” for recovery is not repentance and a return to God and biblical free enterprise. Their solution is doing everything possible to get the United States’ citizens to spend money on global products. Honesty and integrity are merely catch words. Luxury is the aim and intention as we answer, “God, who?” when He reveals Himself per Romans 1:18 and 19. Luxury has become the altar of the great temple of Me.
If the USA were Mystery Babylon, why would the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her? Why would sellers of goods weep if the United States were judged “in one hour?” [Revelation 18:11] The world sells most of its goods to the United States. Factories worldwide employ literally billions of people to make goods for US consumers. But that is not all.
The United States globally influences every purchase, every banking transaction, every investment; literally every transaction because the United States is the global reserve currency standard. In addition, several nations own our currency and our debt in trillions of dollars. If the United States were to vanish, it would be impossible for any nation to collect on the debt. Even if an enemy nation, perhaps China, had the intent to blackmail the United States for whatever reason because it owns so much US debt, that scheme would come to naught if America no longer existed.
The world depends on the Mystery Babylon as the world’s ruler. Just like Mystery Babylon, the United States rules the world and the world must allow her to do so. Without her, their suffering and loss is incomprehensible. The United States’ investment bankers, stock brokers, traders and especially political leaders all scoff at the thought of the United States becoming weak let alone non-existent. Their answer is always, “The United States economy will never fail. It is simply too strong and too big.” Remember Babylon just before her judgments? “I sit as queen, and am no widow and will see no sorrow.” Well, good for her.
What has become the fruit the soul of the United States longs for? [Revelation 18:14] Is it relationship with God for its Christian population? What is the fruit the individual believer should long for? Galatians 5:22 and 23 tell us. If a large enough group of individual believers longed for the fruit of the Spirit, would the United States glorify self and sin the way it does? Would demons, spirits and every foul and unclean bird have a nice cozy, warm place to live? What is the corporate fruit of most individuals including most believers in the United States? I would submit they are Galatians 5:19-21 along with vast quantities of the luxury items described in Revelation 18:12 and 13.
Lastly, what things do we do in this country that take up our time? Entertainment? Collecting things for ourselves, for our enjoyment and pleasure? Producing goods and services? Producing power? Carrying on with our lives and our families? Doing the things Daniel described as “going to a fro?” We do and we do it more so than any other nation in human history, past and present from the wealthiest to the poorest amongst us.
Mystery Babylon is revealed prophetically in Scripture not so much as a geographic location, or coming to power at a certain time, but more as a set of conditions found altogether occurring in one hegemony on earth. Several times in history some of the conditions have been found in sovereign states, but not all. The United States is the only nation in human history where every condition required to exist for judgment detailed in Revelation 18 is found. Until just a few years ago, that was not true. The massive global deception in America’s debt was recently discovered making all conditions valid and present in the United States. If that is the case, the command to “come out of her my people” [Revelation 18:4] which I believe is the Rapture of the Church is not far off.
If it’s true that the United States is in fact Mystery Babylon, for the believer, so what? What does God expect from us as believers? Is there any Scripture that commands us to “run in circles, scream and shout” or stand on our roofs if we figure out Mystery Babylon? Of course not. The command to the Christian is and will always be found summarized in Romans 12: 1 and 2.
And what do we do with Revelation chapter 18 when we “rightly divide” it? [2 Timothy 2:15] My pastor has a phrase about Scripture he uses relentlessly because it’s always valid for each individual believer: Observation, Interpretation, Application. If we have observed and interpreted any passage, ours is to ask God to be challenged to apply that passage to our own lives.
John is detailing events that occur in the Age of Israel and specifically the last seven years of the Age of Israel. How does that fit into our own lives? RB Thieme, Jr as well as many Biblical scholars see the nation of Israel as the individual Church Age believer. If that is the case, how much of our own personal life is like that of Mystery Babylon? How much do we replace God with entertainment; products, goods, stuff; careers, all of which by themselves can be wonderful things and blessings. One application for the believer is to examine our own lives being careful in this bountiful country not to lose sight of who we are and why we’re here.
Whether or not the United States is Mystery Babylon (I happen to believe it is), we have a responsibility as believers to ask God that the Holy Spirit challenge us so that learned Scripture can be applied to our lives on a personal level. Part of that application may mean upholding our responsibilities under the Constitution to vote or politely voice our opinions to our leaders, but there is always personal application of Scripture to our own lives so that we can have a closer relationship with God.
Ken Russell
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RE: The Case for an American Babylon - 10/17/2009 3:21:08 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 324
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
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Dude! That was a long post! LOL. Welcome to the forum. I need to read it again before I make any comments.
_____________________________
Until He Returns (Rev. 2:17),
Travis
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
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RE: The Case for an American Babylon - 10/17/2009 4:22:48 PM
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Ntech
Posts: 66
Joined: 5/3/2005
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Who is the Mystery Babylon? Here's my theory on the subject. A method of determining the intent of a difficult meaning or verse in the bible is using the "Let the bible interpret the bible method". Meaning the answer to this question is already contained in the bible. The trick is to find it. So after thinking about this subject for awhile here's my theories.
According to Daniel 2 and the dream of the statue in the end times there will be a empire of the 10 toes. The nations it consists of will be fractious and unsettled. That is the first clue to mystery Babylon.
Secondly, Daniel 7. The 4th beast, great and terrible with 10 horns. Then an 11th appears and 3 of the first horns are destroyed. Verses 24-27.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Third is Daniel 8. A ram with 2 horns gets the attention of a goat with one great horn. The goat attacks and eventually kills the ram in a battle. Then his horn is broken and 4 notable horns replace it. Then another horn appears and it goes after the south and the east and the pleasant land. Israel.
Then Daniel 9.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Then Daniel 11. A very detailed prophecy of the events of the 70th week. And to put it simply. Mystery Babylon is the kingdom of the north. Daniel 11 speaks of a war triggered by the kingdom of the south that is fought throughout the 70th week.
So then the question is "What nations are part of the kingdom of the north". Here's my theory on the toes. They are not nations. they're tribes. Why? In 725 to 700 BC the northern kingdom of Israel was conquered by Babylon and carried away as slaves. They never returned to rebuild Israel after they were freed. And a theory on the subject is that they migrated north and west out of Persia. Mingling with the local populations along the way. And then there is the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49. Stating that the descendants of the sons of Israel would be nations by the time of the end times. With Ephraim becoming a multitude of nations by the end times.
I would pose the toes are tribes. Not nations. And calling them the Whore of Babylon may actually be fitting.
< Message edited by Ntech -- 10/17/2009 4:31:35 PM >
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RE: The Case for an American Babylon - 11/1/2009 11:30:23 AM
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Wayfaring Stranger
Posts: 245
Joined: 11/24/2005
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Here is how my theory differs.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Who is the Mystery Babylon? Here's my theory on the subject. A method of determining the intent of a difficult meaning or verse in the bible is using the "Let the bible interpret the bible method". Meaning the answer to this question is already contained in the bible. The trick is to find it. So after thinking about this subject for awhile here's my theories.
Once the verses to all the given clues are found then you have a clear picture of the people that control a certain city after Satan and the Beast from the Pit and the False Prophet are in full control. That control doesn't last very long at all. 3 1/2 days is the time given between the death and resurrection of the two witnesses. The dating in Daniel should be days. Daniel wasn't given the same information as John in Revelation. In both instances the next event is the return of Christ.
Da:7:25:
And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Re:11:11:
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
According to Daniel 2 and the dream of the statue in the end times there will be a empire of the 10 toes. The nations it consists of will be fractious and unsettled. That is the first clue to mystery Babylon
That would only be if men made up both the iron and the clay. The 10 are given kingdoms that cover the whole Earth. The start of that is at the beginning of the Beast's 42 months. The 10 are represented by the clay. The iron is the one who gives them power and support. They also become servants to the Beast, do what it wants, such as building an image that is to be worshiped.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Secondly, Daniel 7. The 4th beast, great and terrible with 10 horns. Then an 11th appears and 3 of the first horns are destroyed. Verses 24-27.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
That is who the False Prophet is, the most powerful man in the world (just the clay), it is the beast and this man that try to form a relationship. It doesn't work all that well if it is said not to mix well. Regardless, the act of marking men and demanding worship is an authority only God has, when word of that sin being committed on the earth it brings swift response from above. The 3rd woe of Revelation, which takes up the second half of the day the two witnesses are resurrected. By evening all wrath and resurrection is complete. Things stay that same way until Satan is released 1,000 years later.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Third is Daniel 8. A ram with 2 horns gets the attention of a goat with one great horn. The goat attacks and eventually kills the ram in a battle. Then his horn is broken and 4 notable horns replace it. Then another horn appears and it goes after the south and the east and the pleasant land. Israel.
That was a prophecy about who would control the land Jesus was to be born into. God gave them the right to worship so the Messiah could complete the part that qualified Him to be our Shepherd. We are His property. The return as King makes it quite clear that the earth herself is also His property.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Then Daniel 9.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
He is God,
Da:9:4:
And I prayed unto the LORD my God,
and made my confession,
and said,
O Lord,
the great and dreadful God,
keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him,
and to them that keep his commandments;
The mid of the week was the cross, the ways in the temple did not change after the cross so the temple would be destroyed. It would stay that way until the return of the Messiah and all the prophecy that it entailed.Resurrection, immortal life, peace in the whole earth, no confusion by anybody alive about anything about God. Many more verses describe changes between this carnal world and the way things will be with Christ in charge. It is an abrupt change.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
Then Daniel 11. A very detailed prophecy of the events of the 70th week. And to put it simply. Mystery Babylon is the kingdom of the north. Daniel 11 speaks of a war triggered by the kingdom of the south that is fought throughout the 70th week.
In my version the full 70 was completed in one block of time. The last day of the 490 years was 3 1/2 years after the cross. It would not have gone past the time that Peter received the vision which made it possible to preach the good news to any/all Gentiles.
With just using the numbers given in Revelation, the time-frame for all those verse is just 3 1/2 years for the 1st 2 woes. The 3rd woe takes one day. This is the verse that marks the same time in both those books.
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.
Re:11:13:
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Re:11:14:
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
So then the question is "What nations are part of the kingdom of the north". Here's my theory on the toes. They are not nations. they're tribes. Why? In 725 to 700 BC the northern kingdom of Israel was conquered by Babylon and carried away as slaves. They never returned to rebuild Israel after they were freed. And a theory on the subject is that they migrated north and west out of Persia. Mingling with the local populations along the way. And then there is the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49. Stating that the descendants of the sons of Israel would be nations by the time of the end times. With Ephraim becoming a multitude of nations by the end times.
Ephriam is Christ's first act concerning resurrection back to being a complete people. The are the people the OT describes as being God's chosen people. That would mean they are residents to the land that Christ brings them to at the very beginning of His eternal reign. It is the survives of the Nations that live outside Israel for the 1,000 years. Egypt is considered a Gentile Nation in both OT and NT times. They are not immune from being taken over so they cannot be the aggressors against the Holy Land. This verse is the destruction of 2/3 of living Gentiles in the whole world.
Eze:39:6:
And I will send a fire on Magog,
and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles:
and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Small sentence for much destruction to the Gentiles, same as in this verse, all the cities in the whole world fall yet the main focus is the destruction of Satan's Babylon..
Re:16:19:
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
I take Jeremiah 25 as to the list of 'places' that are involved in being part of the 10 kingdoms that are aligned with Satan.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ntech
I would pose the toes are tribes. Not nations. And calling them the Whore of Babylon may actually be fitting.
They are the 10 divisions of men aligned with the Beast that ends up in the lake. The men all end up in hell for the 1,000 years.
America, China, Russia, France would all be included in this list. If not mentioned specifically then they would be in this one that covers the remaining ones.
Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,
and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:
and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
Jer:25:27:
Therefore thou shalt say unto them,
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
the God of Israel;
Drink ye,
and be drunken,
and spue,
and fall,
and rise no more,
because of the sword which I will send among you.
Jer:25:28:
And it shall be,
if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink,
then shalt thou say unto them,
Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
Ye shall certainly drink.
Jer:25:29:
For,
lo,
I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name,
and should ye be utterly unpunished?
Ye shall not be unpunished:
for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth,
saith the LORD of hosts.
Jer:25:30:
Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words,
and say unto them,
The LORD shall roar from on high,
and utter his voice from his holy habitation;
he shall mightily roar upon his habitation;
he shall give a shout,
as they that tread the grapes,
against all the inhabitants of the earth.
This is what the city will be like when that day arrives.
Jer:25:18:
To wit, Jerusalem,
and the cities of Judah,
and the kings thereof,
and the princes thereof,
to make them a desolation,
an astonishment,
an hissing,
and a curse;
as it is this day;
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RE: The Case for an American Babylon - 11/12/2009 7:35:07 PM
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JMiller
Posts: 123
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
Status: offline
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gone2pot You seem to have an impeccable understanding of end
times Prophecies. I am truely impressed. None but the Holy Spirit could have revealed this to you.
quote:
Mystery Babylon however does not use military force to
intimidate or force other nations to submit to her. Her
relationship and power influence with the world is like no
other in world history. Mystery Babylon uses wealth and
trade to rule over other nations.
This is absolutely true, we call this foreign aid. and
trillions of USD has gone out to the world over the past
years since we started foreign aid.
My bottom line.
Twelve Reasons Why America is Mystery Babylon
1 Mystery Babylon/America Spies on it's own citizens.
Quote Gen. Colin Powell
"Finding the Russian scientists may be a problem being that Russia does not have a Social Security System, as here in America, that allows us to MONITOR, TRACK DOWN and CAPTURE an AMERICAN CITIZEN."
http://www.webraydian.com/content/view/528/32/
United States Government Monitored All Americans: Faxes, Phone Calls, E-mails
http://tinyurl.com/snoops1
REAL ID Mark of the Beast 666
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxCERcgX9V8
2 Mystery Babylon/America Kills it own citizens, and finds perverted ways to justify killing them.
Kent State killing of unarmed peaceful protestors, the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, Terri
Schiavo, abortion etc.
Deuteronomy 19:10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land.
Isaiah 47:6 I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.
3 Mystery Babylon/America conducts medical experiments on It's own citizens, in most cases without their
knowledge nor consent. Tuskegee syphilis experiments, the Lynchburg eugenics program. LSD
experiments on military personnel in the 1960’s
Vets sue CIA, DoD over military experiments
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&sid=1566883
Then Mystery Babylon rigs the court against them so that they cannot get justice.
http://tinyurl.com/rigged01
4 Mystery Babylon/America denies the God of the Bible through the so-called science of evolution.
I can see the time coming when believers will be imprisoned in mental asylums and kept drugged
on psychotropic drugs just because they believe the Bible, as they will say all our scientists have said that evolution is factual, and the Bible is just myth. So your obviously insane because you believe the Bible.
1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain
babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
5 Mystery Babylon/America is openly hostile to Christianity, and Christians, just ask Judge Roy Moore.
Also Reference all the lawsuits against cities that put up crosses and manger scenes at
Christmas time. Matter of fact in some segments of our new society we can't even mention the
word Christmas, but rather we must say winter holiday.
6 Mystery Babylon/America jails Christians whenever they can.
Justice denied Philadelphia 11
http://tinyurl.com/ce6x5f
Law firms Like ACLJ, and Christian Law Association, and others are springing up to counter this.
7 Mystery Babylon/America violates it's own laws, The Duke Lacrosse case is just one of many examples of this. G. W. Bush has said the constitution is just a - - piece of paper.
8 Mystery Babylon/America prosecutes the innocent. Many convictions are being overturned on DNA evidence.
9 Mystery Babylon/America taxes it's citizens so exorbitantly till that they pay over half their income to the city, county, state and federal government in taxes. People that run afoul of the IRS are not even afforded due process. Oh by the way exorbitant taxation was one of the main reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire.
10 The judges of Mystery Babylon/America pass laws promoting homosexuality, such as homosexual adoption of children, and same sex marriage. They are also activist passing law from the bench. And are continually overturning measures passed through petition by the people, such as recently in California. One American judge can throw out the lawful vote of millions of citizens, so what ever happened to government of by and for the people?
Psalm 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a
law.
11 Mystery Babylon/America takes the lead role in dividing Israel.
Daniel 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Re: The forced evacuation from the Gaza stripe, Land For Peace, the Road Map to Peace, Oslo Accords, Annapolis, The Reagan Plan, and all the rest.
12 Mystery Babylon/America aborts babies in order to put makeup on our skin
Skin cream contains fetal proteins, Company's anti-aging
products built on cells harvested from aborted baby
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=114387
But do not take my word for it read it from the Lord himself.
"The fall of Babylon By Darren Smith"
"The Lord kept me up most of the night bringing a word for me to share and to share now. Many times I wait until I have prayed over what I hear in my spirit, but I can't wait to send this word ou Last night while praying before I went to bed, The Lord gave me a vision that really rattled me. In the vision I saw this land split into four parts with each one under its own flag. Each region had terrible destruction and many people were dead. As I looked over the destruction I was crying and the Lord asked me why are
you crying over the fall of Babylon? As a matter of fact, why have you been praying for the healing of Babylon? In this vision I didn't have an answer and the Lord opened a scroll and started reading of the
indictments against our country, but before each one he clearly called the USA Babylon."
Full article here
http://www.streetscapeministries.com/gpage3.html
Supplementary
Gematria of 1776 in Roman numerals MDCCLXXVI = 666
_____________________________
O Lord GOD, remember me
Callin it the way I see it
Are you drinking from the river Denial?
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RE: The Case for an American Babylon - 11/16/2009 3:02:00 AM
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CWHJrA
Posts: 5
Joined: 11/16/2009
Status: offline
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There are millions of Christians today that have no understanding of bible prophecy. There are others who have a desire to understand but don’t believe they can so they put very little effort to studying prophetic scripture. And then there are millions who study but because they do not have a revelation of the Hollow Earth that is proved on this site above, have it all mixed up. They are sincere in their search but they have missed the foundation of creation that is taught in Genesis. Many Christians have believed the lies taught by their mentors and have been blinded and even perhaps lost to the truth in Bible Prophecy. Many of these have believed the lie of a pre-tribulation rapture which now is impossible seeing as the last seven weeks started in Jan 1st 2007. These have also believed that the seven year covenant of Daniel 9:27 is a peace treaty and therefore, because we don’t have a peace treaty yet and the covenant signed is not a peace treaty, that it is still to come. Nowhere in Daniel does it state that we will have a peace treaty at the beginning of the last seven years. I intend to prove that the covenant signed in 2007 is the one we are looking for.
On this post I hope to clear up and to prove many of the miss-conceptions that pervade the church in the area of bible prophecy. Please have your Bible handy to follow along because I will not quote scripture but I will tell you where to find it. It is your calling to study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth.
If you are able to see that the earth is indeed hollow as is claimed on this blog above then understand that the wicked one who sits in the temple to show himself that he is god is the king that will come out of the pit just as Rev 17 claims and therefore we can ignore that scripture in 2nd Thessalonians 2:4 that speaks of him for now, while we attempt to understand the other scriptures pertaining to the other characters of the last days prophecies.
The first one that we need to understand is Babylon the great the Mother of Harlots in Rev 17. Now there is one Denomination today that teaches that this is the USA and New York in particular and they have built their whole understanding around this miss-conception. The Babylon in this chapter is dressed in scarlet and purple. The President and his advisers are usually dressed in black with white shirts. Babylon is decked out is precious jewels and rubies. The President might have a Rolex watch and a gold pen and a gold ring. Babylon worships the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus. The only time the saints are mentioned in the Whitehouse is probably by accident used as a curse word when it slips out. You have to wonder how these doctrines ever get conceived. Babylon sits on seven hills. The Pentagon is basically in a field from pictures I have seen. No, Babylon is not the USA but the USA is in prophetic scripture as a beast in other scriptures. This I hope to prove after we finish with Babylon.
Now it must be understood that the beast is not Babylon but the woman who rides the beast is Babylon. The Beast with ten horns is the European Union as I will soon prove.
So then who is this Babylon? Well to many it is obvious but for those who are not yet convinced I will give proof from scripture. I will attempt to prove to you beyond a shadow of doubt, that Babylon is the One World Religion that is about to be birthed and that the Catholic Monarchy is her head. The first clue in Revelations 17 tells us that Babylon sits on many waters. Waters are considered nations in prophecy. The Catholic Church is the largest religious organization in the world. It is the dominant religion in most countries around the world and therefore it sits on many waters.
In Rev 17 it is said that the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her. This is not the sexual fornication that we would normally relate to this word but it is spiritual fornication. Spiritual fornication is committed when someone of a particular religion studies the teachings of another religion and then combines the two to come out with a mixed, and confused, understanding. Hosea 4:11 in the old testament warns us that whoredom and wine and new wine takes away the heart. In other words we are no longer able to think clearly and hear the Lord because we have other beliefs mixed in with his teachings in our mind. The Catholic Church has slowly blended Christian doctrine with doctrines of many other religions over the years. Exodus 20:4 in the Ten Commandments tells us that we are not to make a graven image of anything in the heavens, in the earth or beneath the earth and we are not to bow down in worship to them. The Catholic Church is full of idols of several saints including Mary, Jesus mother, and of Jesus himself who is in heaven. They have broken this commandment and have even prayed to the saints as well which is an abomination to GOD. We have only one mediator between us and GOD and that is Jesus Christ the righteous according to 1st Timothy 2:5. As well they use prayer beads as a means of pennants which is adapted from another religion. Fear of past sin retribution has caused many to fall for this trap. It is not uncommon to see Muslims practice the same thing. There is much more if you are willing to research but I believe I have made my point.
Babylon rides a beast that is scarlet in color and has seven heads and ten horns. The ten horns I will soon prove to be the 10 original nations in the European Union. The seven heads are seven mountains in Rome where the Vatican is. However, I believe they may also represent seven of the world’s mainline religions whom the Catholic Church will head and will have many religions under their domination. There is a meeting in Australia this month of Nov 2007 with over 200 spiritual heads from many religions whose goal is to organize the first one world religion. We will have to watch and wait for the outcome of those meetings. This does not have to manifest to fulfill scripture. It is just my own thoughts.
Babylon is dressed in purple and scarlet color and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls. The Pope has a crown that is full of precious jewels. On his finger he wears a diamond that people would kill for. On his neck he wears a chain of peals the value of which I could not estimate. Is the picture coming any clearer? Get out of denial and wakeup. Wisdom is a tree of life to those who find her.
She has a golden cup in her hand full abominations and filthiness of her fornications. The abominations are the ungodly practices that she has adapted into the church because she has blended the doctrines of other religions with biblical teachings. If you will give them a stated amount of money they will pray and a wicked relative that was a drunkard and a thief can be bought out of an imaginary Purgatory into the presents of God so he won’t suffer damnation. Do they really think that God would take a bribe to release a devil from his just reward? That is insane. What does God care about earthly wealth compared to His righteousness? Have you ever read up on the Crusades. They burned Gods chosen people, the Jews at the stake if they would not convert to Christianity. Does that sound like Jesus? It is no wonder that so many people hate Jesus. This list could be expounded on but I don’t believe it necessary to prove my point. The atrocities that have been done by the Catholic Church over the decades are gross and to many to mention. From Priests molesting sisters and children, to murder. A righteous GOD cannot let this go unpunished.
It is not hard to understand how when God looks at her he sees Babylon the Great the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth written in her mind. But even still GOD is calling those who will hear to come out of her my people in Rev 18:4. In other words there are good Christian people in the Catholic Church but GOD says they should get out of it lest they partake of her sin.
She is drunk with the blood of the saints and with the martyrs of Jesus. In the Catholic Church they don’t pray to Jesus. Someone long ago did not get the answer to a prayer that he wanted so he thought to pray to Mary, Jesus mother. Surely she would intervene and Jesus could not resist the petition from his mother. I don’t know if he got his answer but this practice began the long slippery slope to idolatry of praying to many of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus and I have heard that they get answers to many of these prayers. However, judging from the obvious description of Babylon and her punishment, I would never recommend this practice as Timothy again tells us we have one mediator between us and God and that is the man Jesus Christ. If he does not answer your prayer then it is simply because you are lacking faith and might need to repent of some sin that is fogging up your conscience because if we know he hears us then we know we have the thing that we asked for. On the other hand if we pray out of the wrong spirit to get things we don’t need or that are not right, don’t expect a righteous God to answer. The devil might answer and take your soul, but God will never answer this type of prayer. Those who put God first will settle for no. Those who do not will lose their soul. They are drunk with the blood of the saints. Many children, citys, streets, schools and cathedrals are named after the saints and martyrs of Jesus.
Seems pretty clear to me.
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RE: The Case for an American Babylon - 11/19/2009 8:54:46 AM
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JMiller
Posts: 123
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
Status: offline
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Pastor David J Meyer
quote:
On May 1st, 2009, which happens to be the witches' high cross-quarter sabat of Beltaine, Reuters News Service featured the following headline: "Obama Reveling in U.S. Power Unseen in Decades." (1) It was no coincidence that the headline didn't say "power not seen" but rather "power unseen." Truly, there are unseen powers at work. Dr. Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Illuminati, referred to that unseen power as the controlling unknown.
The power of Obama intensified even more with the approaching of Beltaine when on April 29th Senator Arlen Specter, a Republican from Pennsylvania, became a Democrat and greatly shifted the power in the U.S. Senate in favor of Obama. (2) The people of Pennsylvania elected Specter because they wanted a Republican, and thus, he turned his back to the electorate of his state. This is exactly the kind of man that Obama likes to have around him.
The antichrist overtones and rank blasphemy that surround the Obama presidency is increasing in a sickening crescendo. To commemorate the 100th day of Obama in office, a painting entitled "The Truth" was to be placed on display at New York City's Union Square. The picture featured Obama in front of the presidential seal with arms in a crucifix position and wearing a crown of thorns. His head was bowed down as a suffering messiah. President Obama did not object to the painting, but thankfully, there was such a public outcry against this blasphemy that the event had to be cancelled!
Full article here
The Fall of the United States of Babylon!
http://lasttrumpetnewsletter.org/2009/06_09.html
Recommended extraneous reading.
"America, The Babylon: America's Destiny Foretold In Biblical Prophecy"
http://americathebabylon.com/
Also recommended these two award winning videos.
The New Atlantis - Secret Mysteries Of America's Beginning
And also Vol 2 "Riddles In Stone"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5839084912030464561
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=david+j+smith&sites
earch=video.google.com#q=david%20j%20smith&sitesearch=vid
eo.google.com&start=0
< Message edited by JMiller -- 11/19/2009 9:14:10 AM >
_____________________________
O Lord GOD, remember me
Callin it the way I see it
Are you drinking from the river Denial?
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