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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/22/2009 7:13:08 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Yes the word have itself is present tense! However the context defines the word meanings.
Notice that this is not a passage about how to become a Christian, but about God´s initiative to save sinful mankind. Read John 3 altogether!
Jesus was lifted up, just as the snake (!) was lifted up. We must look at/to him, not to ourselves, if we want to be saved.
So you admit that you were in error to say that it is in the future tense? Please know that if you make any claims about Greek, I have the resources to check you. I tend to rely mostly upon English except when the English meanings may be unclear.
Back to the discussion. Did Jesus say that we must "look at/to him"? Or did He say that we must believe in Him? Reference verses 15-16? At least 3-4 times Jesus says directly that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
In post #11, you said: "Faith means firm persuasion, trust, reliance upon." If that is how you define faith, then I agree.
quote:
Ritual or not believe is something someone must do in order to be saved. And yet many religious folks say you don't do anything to be saved. It is all done by Christ.
Therefore you have a problem with your theology do you not?
No, I don't have a problem with my theology. You have a problem with what you think my theology is or with what you hope my theology is. You would like to interpret my theology in such a way as to make certain parts internally inconsistent. I think my theology is as internally consistent as I understand the Bible.
Let me back up. It sounds like you are asking me for a scripture that says, "works is/are such and such." No scripture defines it as such. I never claimed it did. Are we clear on that?
I can certainly present scripture that is consistent with the definition I gave. Of course, I suppose I could refine my definition or elaborate further on it.
Paul treats circumcision as a work in Romans 4. James treats Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac as a work in chapter 2 of the same book. James treats Rahab's aid to the Israelite spies as a work. None of those, strictly speaking, are works that must be confined within the Mosaic system. Circumcision is ritual, of a sort. The sacrifice of Isaac (or attempt) is ritual as well. Rahab's aid to the Israelite spies is neither ritual nor within the Mosaic system. It is simply an outward display of active behavior that the spies could observe.
quote:
So you don't have a definition of works? Most religious people say it is anything you do. Is this what you believe?
"Do" has such a wide range of meanings in the English language that if two people are using the same word, they may blur the meaning of the word within their discussion. You believe, basically, that the English word "do" must inherently imply physical actions like baptism or some/any good deed. I am excluding that meaning as per the exclusion of "deeds" or "works" in the formula of the NT.
I allow the English word "do" to encapsulate belief/faith as a precondition for salvation. Insofar as repentance, I believe the Greek word for repentance has a wide range of meanings but does not necessarily imply deeds or actions. It implies a complete change of attitude however. It leads to actions if the attitude of repentance is maintained.
quote:
There is nothing fallacious about it. I am trying us to all think through this logically.
What I felt was fallacious was my understanding of your words. If you are asking me to present a scripture that expressly says, "works is or works are such and such," no such scripture exists. If you are asking me to present scriptural examples, in context, of works that are consistent with the definition I gave, I hope one of the earlier comments in this post will help.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/22/2009 7:53:50 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 11/5/2009 12:07:22 PM
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mysteryofgospel
Posts: 63
Joined: 8/12/2009
Status: offline
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sept0409,
Isaiah writes God's words in 55:8, "For My thoughts are higher than your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
We don't know how God calls us or chooses us in Him but He does. Not only that but He holds us close to Him until we are redeemed.
How can repentance be immediate when we are born again in Christ when we don't even understand yet what those sins are? Most, if not all of us, think we need to repent of one or two things instead of the actual reality of being in total depravity.
I came crawling to Jesus 28 years ago after a second failed marriage and asked Him into my heart. Such a wondrous day it was. So good in fact that I thought that I could go on sinning so that grace could abound. I went to church and was being fed but I was so overjoyed of having Christ in my life, I never realized I needed to repent. Please do not blame the pastor for this, I believe I was kept in blindness for my future benefit. No, no one failed me.
It was one more party and one more girlfriend for several years but I attended church three times a week. I enthusiastically testified in church and to others about the saving grace of Jesus Christ. I was so enthused I told one person that God would protect us in all ways, and demonstrated this by passing on a blind curve on Lookout Mountain Road west of Golden, Co. We narrowly missed hitting someone head-on. I missed the scripture about tempting God.
I could say much more of descending into sexual immorality but at some point the Holy Spirit impressed upon me that I was sinning and needed to come out of it. I suppose if Christ was going to give up on me, He would have done so many years ago, but He did not.
He said, "My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
28 years later I am now speaking for Christ, never perfect, but still forgiven and held tight.
If you have claimed Christ, He will claim you.
< Message edited by mysteryofgospel -- 11/5/2009 12:13:34 PM >
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