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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/18/2009 4:17:41 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
Then how do we have to keep on repenting in order to get it?
Because Jesus commanded it! Why else?
I did not ask "why?" I asked "how?" It was "how?", meaning "in what manner?," not "how come?"
quote:
Well now you are changing the subject. I also agree that John 3:16 is a condition for everlasting life. That is not what we were discussing.
Maybe it isn't what you were discussing. However, it is what I was discussing.
In post #6 you said: "The context of John 3 is showing you where salvation comes from not how someone is initially saved..." I took that to mean you objected to my point that faith is the condition for salvation. One of the usual meanings of "how" refers to a condition or conditions. IOW, how someone is saved meant, "What are the precondition(s) for someone to be saved."
Your next statement in that post was unclear to me in light of your former statement: "We must look to up to Jesus on the cross! John 3:14. I agree that faith is the condition however faith and obedience are not mutually exclusive. Never has been!"
Therefore, I tried to make clear that John 3:16 spelled out in unambiguous terms that we receive salvation when we believe. Let me add that if faith is not enough, then John 3:16 is untrue. IOW, if faith is not enough then one may believe and not have eternal life.
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quote:
No, it is not. It is a crown/prize, i.e. rewards for faithful service. See 1 Cor 9:24. Ok...well you have the weight of scholarship completely against you. Even scholars I disagree with on many issues agree that this is speaking about salvation/eternal life.
Context:
1)Whether or not most people or "weight of scholarship" is against me, I don't know. If the weight of scholarship were with me on some particular issue, I don't think you would find that compelling. Therefore, I don't know why you think I would find that compelling.
2) It seems to me that the "weight of scholarship" is a more sophisticated version of a logical fallacy called "ad populum."
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
3) Since you will probably bring up the Greek word "adokimos" pretty soon anyway, here it is. It means disapproved/disqualified, and not lost. Paul was concerned about being rejected with regard to his personal services (work, office, that sort of thing), not salvation. The context is not about losing salvation. The context is about losing effectiveness (that I might save some, verse 22). And, he wanted to preach the gospel freely, without charge--that it may make him more effective (verse 18).
quote:
quote:
Salvation, in the NT, need not refer to getting to heaven or anything like that. Several scriptures demonstrate that it cannot always refer to that.
See my last point!
The Greek word sozo is translated heal (John 11:12, Matt 9:22), preserve (1 Tim. 2:15), and save (with reference to saving of physical life, Matt. 8:25). Soterion is the noun form of the verb sozo. I can get you some dozen or more occurrences of the word "sozo" in the NT where it clearly refers to something other than the heaven/hell meaning. If you believe that sozo/soterion inherently refers to salvation in the heaven/hell sense, then its usage in other scriptures tends to argue against that notion.
quote:
In that case you are an Arminian. And you don't believe in salvation by faith apart from works.
Oh ok.....well I guess you are Catholic since you believe Jesus is the Son of God.
Please define works
Disclaimer: drmark tells me that I am quite uninformed on the characteristics of Arminianism. I withdraw the remark.
Works: In referring to works, I mean that anything we are actively doing in order to curry favor with God. Examples would be things like good deeds, baptism, rituals, etc. Whether or not God commands them is beside the point. Just because God commands them does not make them conditions for salvation.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/18/2009 6:22:02 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/18/2009 7:39:37 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6726
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
If we have to continue repenting in order to be saved, then you don't believe that salvation is by faith alone. Apparently, you believe as Arminians do that we assist in our salvation?
Larry, I think I am with you on this thread, as discombabulated as this thread is; the question I ask is how one can continue or not continue to repent. Repent means to change one's mind, to stop sin; so if they do continue in that sin; there is no repentance.
And I would say no salvation because there was no repentance.
Peter was really plain in Acts;
(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
No repentance; no salvation, at least in my humble opinion.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/18/2009 8:15:16 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
If we have to continue repenting in order to be saved, then you don't believe that salvation is by faith alone. Apparently, you believe as Arminians do that we assist in our salvation?
Larry, I think I am with you on this thread, as discombabulated as this thread is; the question I ask is how one can continue or not continue to repent. Repent means to change one's mind, to stop sin; so if they do continue in that sin; there is no repentance.
And I would say no salvation because there was no repentance.
Peter was really plain in Acts;
(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
No repentance; no salvation, at least in my humble opinion.
Thanks
RC
RC,
Thanks. It is discombobulated indeed. I believe that repentance and faith have some overlap semantically. That would explain why there are scriptures using one or the other and not both together. (There are scriptures using them both together but probably there are more using them separately.)
Repentance, in its broadest meaning, is turning to God or turning back to God; depending on one's starting place. Faith (in the sense of dependence on Christ) implies repentance I believe.
However, I think one of the OP's questions leads to the inevitable issue: What happens when one returns to sin? That's not the same thing as not repenting.
PS. I almost said that I love the word discombobulate even though it is not in the dictionary. However, it IS in the dictionary.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/18/2009 8:21:36 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/18/2009 9:35:57 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Works: In referring to works, I mean that anything we are actively doing in order to curry favor with God. Examples would be things like good deeds, baptism, rituals, etc. Whether or not God commands them is beside the point. Just because God commands them does not make them conditions for salvation.
So, does the fact that God commands us to do something make it a work, or are there things that God commands us to do that should not be considered works?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 6:55:41 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Works: In referring to works, I mean that anything we are actively doing in order to curry favor with God. Examples would be things like good deeds, baptism, rituals, etc. Whether or not God commands them is beside the point. Just because God commands them does not make them conditions for salvation.
So, does the fact that God commands us to do something make it a work, or are there things that God commands us to do that should not be considered works?
It may still be a work even though God commands it. Think about it. In Romans chapter four, circumcision is regarded as a work even though God clearly commanded it way back in the OT book of Genesis.
Where people violate the instruction of Eph. 2:8-9 is when they make human works one of the preconditions for salvation.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 8:11:39 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
It may still be a work even though God commands it. Think about it. In Romans chapter four, circumcision is regarded as a work even though God clearly commanded it way back in the OT book of Genesis.
Where people violate the instruction of Eph. 2:8-9 is when they make human works one of the preconditions for salvation.
OK, so were people in the Old Testament saved by works or is circumcision not necessary for their salvation? Could they have foregone circumcision and still be considered a child of God?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 8:50:28 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Could they have foregone circumcision and still be considered a child of God? Umm, you do realize that about one half of the world's population cannot physically be circumcised! Are they unable to become daughters of God?
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 8:54:51 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
Then how do we have to keep on repenting in order to get it?
Because Jesus commanded it! Why else?
I did not ask "why?" I asked "how?" It was "how?", meaning "in what manner?," not "how come?"
How? How did you repent when you first became a christian? What did you repent of? What do you repent of now? You don't have to answer that to me but just something to think about.
We pray for God to grant repentance and at the same time we quit doing the things we know that are not spiritually fruitful. Read Galatians 5:19-20. If I am in sin lusting after a woman.....then I stop! I turn my head and look the other way! Same with any other sin. You just stop doing it and act like Jesus.
quote:
Well now you are changing the subject. I also agree that John 3:16 is a condition for everlasting life. That is not what we were discussing.
Maybe it isn't what you were discussing. However, it is what I was discussing.
In post #6 you said: "The context of John 3 is showing you where salvation comes from not how someone is initially saved..." I took that to mean you objected to my point that faith is the condition for salvation. One of the usual meanings of "how" refers to a condition or conditions. IOW, how someone is saved meant, "What are the precondition(s) for someone to be saved."
Oh no....I apologize that was not my intention. My point is that faith is MOST definitely a condition for salvation but that John 3:16 is not a specific formula of how someone goes from unsaved to saved. The context is describing the source of salvation. The source is Jesus Christ. Jesus is speaking to a Pharisee.....their biggest issue was believing Jesus was the Messiah. That is why Jesus is telling Nicodemus that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved.
quote:
Your next statement in that post was unclear to me in light of your former statement: "We must look to up to Jesus on the cross! John 3:14. I agree that faith is the condition however faith and obedience are not mutually exclusive. Never has been!"
Therefore, I tried to make clear that John 3:16 spelled out in unambiguous terms that we receive salvation when we believe. Let me add that if faith is not enough, then John 3:16 is untrue. IOW, if faith is not enough then one may believe and not have eternal life.
Yeah but you are ignoring the whole conversion narrative. John 3:16 leaves out repentance so if you are going to be consistent in your line of thought then you would have to say that repentance isn't necessary for salvation either which is completely false wouldn't you agree? You get my point?
quote:
quote:
No, it is not. It is a crown/prize, i.e. rewards for faithful service. See 1 Cor 9:24. Ok...well you have the weight of scholarship completely against you. Even scholars I disagree with on many issues agree that this is speaking about salvation/eternal life.
Context:
1)Whether or not most people or "weight of scholarship" is against me, I don't know. If the weight of scholarship were with me on some particular issue, I don't think you would find that compelling. Therefore, I don't know why you think I would find that compelling.
2) It seems to me that the "weight of scholarship" is a more sophisticated version of a logical fallacy called "ad populum."
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
3) Since you will probably bring up the Greek word "adokimos" pretty soon anyway, here it is. It means disapproved/disqualified, and not lost. Paul was concerned about being rejected with regard to his personal services (work, office, that sort of thing), not salvation. The context is not about losing salvation. The context is about losing effectiveness (that I might save some, verse 22). And, he wanted to preach the gospel freely, without charge--that it may make him more effective (verse 18).
Sorry my friend but I am not going to argue this point any longer.......we disagree.
quote:
quote:
Salvation, in the NT, need not refer to getting to heaven or anything like that. Several scriptures demonstrate that it cannot always refer to that.
See my last point!
quote:
The Greek word sozo is translated heal (John 11:12, Matt 9:22), preserve (1 Tim. 2:15), and save (with reference to saving of physical life, Matt. 8:25). Soterion is the noun form of the verb sozo. I can get you some dozen or more occurrences of the word "sozo" in the NT where it clearly refers to something other than the heaven/hell meaning. If you believe that sozo/soterion inherently refers to salvation in the heaven/hell sense, then its usage in other scriptures tends to argue against that notion.
quote:
In that case you are an Arminian. And you don't believe in salvation by faith apart from works.
You can call me what ever names you want......I don't believe you have a grasp of what biblical works are and that is clear by your statement here.
Oh ok.....well I guess you are Catholic since you believe Jesus is the Son of God.
Please define works
quote:
Disclaimer: drmark tells me that I am quite uninformed on the characteristics of Arminianism. I withdraw the remark.
Works: In referring to works, I mean that anything we are actively doing in order to curry favor with God. Examples would be things like good deeds, baptism, rituals, etc. Whether or not God commands them is beside the point. Just because God commands them does not make them conditions for salvation.
Ok....I appreciate you retracting the statement however now you are contradicting yourself with your definition of works.
This is a common mistake and why you need to learn how to discern biblical context because without it you end doing this! Contradicting yourself and coming up with false definitions that are found nowhere in the bible.
There is nothing wrong with actively doing things to win God's favor. Don't you want to please God? Don't you want to do things to make him happy?
Show me where works is defined as anything we actively do in order to win favor with God?
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 11:17:08 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Show me where works is defined as anything we actively do in order to win favor with God? I think this is a terribly important question and seems to be the basis for much of the disagreement between theoligical positions on salvation by grace. If we correctly define grace as "unmerited favor" then can we correctly define works as anything done ion order to merit favor? But this may not account for the individual person's motive if they were performing the act for reasons other than meriting God's favor. Does that make sense?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 11:21:03 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Show me where works is defined as anything we actively do in order to win favor with God? I think this is a terribly important question and seems to be the basis for much of the disagreement between theoligical positions on salvation by grace. If we correctly define grace as "unmerited favor" then can we correctly define works as anything done ion order to merit favor? But this may not account for the individual person's motive if they were performing the act for reasons other than meriting God's favor. Does that make sense?
Yes that makes sense. So the whole issue is one of motif.
If we do things out of love and reliance on God trusting him then that is righteous and good.
If we do things relying on self trusting the action or thing done then it means nothing to God right?
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 11:27:36 AM
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drmark
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quote:
So the whole issue is one of motif. Do you mean "motive" as in purpose or intention? Or do you mean "motif" as in recurrent theme or feature?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 11:51:11 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So the whole issue is one of motif. Do you mean "motive" as in purpose or intention? Or do you mean "motif" as in recurrent theme or feature?
Hilarious! I feel like an idiot!
Motive! That's what I get for typing to fast! Plus being a musician I used to have a keyboard called Motif!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 11:54:47 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
Hilarious! I feel like an idiot! No need, jj! The word "motif" comes from the original French "motive" and could be somewhat applied to this discussion on theological definitions of "works". That's why I asked you to clarify.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 2:09:51 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Could they have foregone circumcision and still be considered a child of God? Umm, you do realize that about one half of the world's population cannot physically be circumcised! Are they unable to become daughters of God?
So does that mean circumcision was not required to be a member of God's chosen people?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 2:20:48 PM
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drmark
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Apparently not for female Jews!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 4:38:40 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
How? How did you repent when you first became a christian? What did you repent of? What do you repent of now? You don't have to answer that to me but just something to think about.
We pray for God to grant repentance and at the same time we quit doing the things we know that are not spiritually fruitful. Read Galatians 5:19-20. If I am in sin lusting after a woman.....then I stop! I turn my head and look the other way! Same with any other sin. You just stop doing it and act like Jesus.
quote:
Oh no....I apologize that was not my intention. My point is that faith is MOST definitely a condition for salvation but that John 3:16 is not a specific formula of how someone goes from unsaved to saved. The context is describing the source of salvation. The source is Jesus Christ. Jesus is speaking to a Pharisee.....their biggest issue was believing Jesus was the Messiah. That is why Jesus is telling Nicodemus that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved.
Sorry, but John 3:16 is pretty straightforward. If one believes in Christ, they have eternal life. Case closed!!
quote:
Yeah but you are ignoring the whole conversion narrative. John 3:16 leaves out repentance so if you are going to be consistent in your line of thought then you would have to say that repentance isn't necessary for salvation either which is completely false wouldn't you agree? You get my point?
I'm not ignoring anything. I guess it depends on how one defines repentance. Repentance is a change of perspective with regard to sin and Christ. When we trust Christ (faith) in the sense that the Bible means, we are turning our back on sin. One cannot trust in Christ biblically without rejecting sin.
quote:
Sorry my friend but I am not going to argue this point any longer.......we disagree.
Okay.
quote:
This is a common mistake and why you need to learn how to discern biblical context because without it you end doing this! Contradicting yourself and coming up with false definitions that are found nowhere in the bible.
I suppose you have a definition that is found in the Bible?
quote:
There is nothing wrong with actively doing things to win God's favor. Don't you want to please God? Don't you want to do things to make him happy?
No, there is nothing wrong with seeking to please God. But there are two issues here.
1) One is whether or not works are a condition for our salvation.
2) The other is whether or not God wants His people to please Him with works.
The answer to the first one is no. The answer to the second one is yes.
quote:
Show me where works is defined as anything we actively do in order to win favor with God?
Do you have a definition for works? You must believe in the concept. If you think my definition is wrong, do you have a definition? Or, do you just assume something?
quote:
You can call me what ever names you want......I don't believe you have a grasp of what biblical works are and that is clear by your statement here.
Name calling? Is that what you think I was doing? It was an attempt to classify you by your views. There was nothing malicious about it. In fact, I appreciate it when someone owns up to labels that tell me something about what they believe. Me? I used to be a Baptist but now I attend a Bible church in Dallas, Texas.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/19/2009 5:03:45 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 8:20:06 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
Why not claim it? Even better, sept0409, why not live it? 1 Thess 4:3-7 is quite clear, don't you think?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 9:03:38 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Why not claim it? Even better, sept0409, why not live it? 1 Thess 4:3-7 is quite clear, don't you think?
I guess it depends on whether or not someone has presuppositions about what it should say.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/19/2009 9:10:36 PM
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drmark
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Nice try at obfuscation, Larry, but the text means what the text says! God wants us to avoid sexual immorality, period. He will punish us for uncontrolled worldly lusts, period. No amount of "presuppositions" can obfuscate the truth!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/20/2009 6:39:06 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Nice try at obfuscation, Larry, but the text means what the text says! God wants us to avoid sexual immorality, period. He will punish us for uncontrolled worldly lusts, period. No amount of "presuppositions" can obfuscate the truth!
drmark,
Come on! There was no attempt at obfuscation on my part. I had no idea whether or not you had any deeper meaning like "entire sanctification" in mind. I was trying to avoid that. Yes, or course, I agree that the text is rather clear in that sense. I was merely avoiding controversy.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/20/2009 8:56:32 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
I was merely avoiding controversy. Not very well, it appears... 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/20/2009 9:06:50 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
How? How did you repent when you first became a christian? What did you repent of? What do you repent of now? You don't have to answer that to me but just something to think about.
We pray for God to grant repentance and at the same time we quit doing the things we know that are not spiritually fruitful. Read Galatians 5:19-20. If I am in sin lusting after a woman.....then I stop! I turn my head and look the other way! Same with any other sin. You just stop doing it and act like Jesus.
quote:
Oh no....I apologize that was not my intention. My point is that faith is MOST definitely a condition for salvation but that John 3:16 is not a specific formula of how someone goes from unsaved to saved. The context is describing the source of salvation. The source is Jesus Christ. Jesus is speaking to a Pharisee.....their biggest issue was believing Jesus was the Messiah. That is why Jesus is telling Nicodemus that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved.
Sorry, but John 3:16 is pretty straightforward. If one believes in Christ, they have eternal life. Case closed!!
Case not closed....you just misquoted John 3:16....It does not say there that if one believes they have eternal life.....it says if one believes they will have eternal life....future tense. It doesn't they then at that moment have it. There are other scriptures that speak to this but they were written to Christians encouraging them to continue believing in Jesus defending them against the heretical gnostics.
quote:
Yeah but you are ignoring the whole conversion narrative. John 3:16 leaves out repentance so if you are going to be consistent in your line of thought then you would have to say that repentance isn't necessary for salvation either which is completely false wouldn't you agree? You get my point?
I'm not ignoring anything. I guess it depends on how one defines repentance. Repentance is a change of perspective with regard to sin and Christ. When we trust Christ (faith) in the sense that the Bible means, we are turning our back on sin. One cannot trust in Christ biblically without rejecting sin.
quote:
Sorry my friend but I am not going to argue this point any longer.......we disagree.
Okay.
quote:
This is a common mistake and why you need to learn how to discern biblical context because without it you end doing this! Contradicting yourself and coming up with false definitions that are found nowhere in the bible.
I suppose you have a definition that is found in the Bible?
quote:
There is nothing wrong with actively doing things to win God's favor. Don't you want to please God? Don't you want to do things to make him happy?
No, there is nothing wrong with seeking to please God. But there are two issues here.
1) One is whether or not works are a condition for our salvation.
2) The other is whether or not God wants His people to please Him with works.
The answer to the first one is no. The answer to the second one is yes.
And yet we still must do things in order to be saved! So you your statement is false.
We still must believe! That is something we must do. So according to you that is a work.
We still must repent! That is something we must do. So according to you that is a work.
etc
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Show me where works is defined as anything we actively do in order to win favor with God?
Do you have a definition for works? You must believe in the concept. If you think my definition is wrong, do you have a definition? Or, do you just assume something?
So you cannot show me?
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You can call me what ever names you want......I don't believe you have a grasp of what biblical works are and that is clear by your statement here.
Name calling? Is that what you think I was doing? It was an attempt to classify you by your views. There was nothing malicious about it. In fact, I appreciate it when someone owns up to labels that tell me something about what they believe. Me? I used to be a Baptist but now I attend a Bible church in Dallas, Texas.
Ok...cool 
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/20/2009 5:47:00 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Case not closed....you just misquoted John 3:16....It does not say there that if one believes they have eternal life.....it says if one believes they will have eternal life....future tense. It doesn't they then at that moment have it. There are other scriptures that speak to this but they were written to Christians encouraging them to continue believing in Jesus defending them against the heretical gnostics.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am not an expert Greek but I know a little bit of Greek. And I have some consultants here at CW and at my church who can help me get the finer technical aspects correct. Anyway, I have enough library sources to tell you that it is not future tense. I don't know where you got your information. You are mistaken. The word translated "have" in my English translations is NOT "will have" (future). I checked Zodhiates Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible. If you want to get technical, it is present tense, subjunctive, aorist. Now, the subjunctive and aorist are little tricky for novices like me. If you want further information as to what they mean I can get it in a few days. And if you want I can ask a few people to correct me if you wish.
Now, with regard to whether or not I misquoted the verse. I checked several versions on line. The only mistake I can find is a subject-verb agreement with the words "have" and "has." I inserted ellipses to indicate additional words that I did not wish to emphasize.
quote:
And yet we still must do things in order to be saved! So you your statement is false.
We still must believe! That is something we must do. So according to you that is a work.
We still must repent! That is something we must do. So according to you that is a work.
Believing is a "do" thing that must indicate action? You cannot think of a single internal idea or concept that is inherently internal, devoid of outside physical actions? If I say "I do believe" or "I do think so," neither of those statements have to mean some outside activity on my part. I can even say "I do feel."
"Do" is an English verb. But, it is not necessarily a verb implying physical activity or action in the outward sense. Believe is something we do but that "act" of faith is internal, nonritualistic.
quote:
quote:
Do you have a definition for works? You must believe in the concept. If you think my definition is wrong, do you have a definition? Or, do you just assume something? So you cannot show me?
It's really an unfair question. Your question is fallacious, like "When did you stop beating your wife?". It is a question designed so as to manipulate me. I am frankly surprised that you think I cannot see through it. And, I have to call you out on it. If I give you the kind of answer answer you are requesting, it would have to be a made up one. If I do not answer it, then you will accuse me of making up a definition.
I'll make you a deal. If you can present a legitimate biblical definition of "work" of your own, expressly defined by the Bible, and then I will concede the point. If you cannot present a definition of "work" from your point of view, you must concede the point to me.
If you do not agree to either of those two choices, you must withdraw your question. I expect that you will reject all three choices. But frankly, I will not be manipulated into such a fallacious dilemma.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/20/2009 10:16:11 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/22/2009 2:29:11 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Case not closed....you just misquoted John 3:16....It does not say there that if one believes they have eternal life.....it says if one believes they will have eternal life....future tense. It doesn't they then at that moment have it. There are other scriptures that speak to this but they were written to Christians encouraging them to continue believing in Jesus defending them against the heretical gnostics.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am not an expert Greek but I know a little bit of Greek. And I have some consultants here at CW and at my church who can help me get the finer technical aspects correct. Anyway, I have enough library sources to tell you that it is not future tense. I don't know where you got your information. You are mistaken. The word translated "have" in my English translations is NOT "will have" (future). I checked Zodhiates Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible. If you want to get technical, it is present tense, subjunctive, aorist. Now, the subjunctive and aorist are little tricky for novices like me. If you want further information as to what they mean I can get it in a few days. And if you want I can ask a few people to correct me if you wish.
Now, with regard to whether or not I misquoted the verse. I checked several versions on line. The only mistake I can find is a subject-verb agreement with the words "have" and "has." I inserted ellipses to indicate additional words that I did not wish to emphasize.
Yes the word have itself is present tense! However the context defines the word meanings.
Notice that this is not a passage about how to become a Christian, but about God´s initiative to save sinful mankind. Read John 3 altogether!
Jesus was lifted up, just as the snake (!) was lifted up. We must look at/to him, not to ourselves, if we want to be saved.
quote:
And yet we still must do things in order to be saved! So you your statement is false.
We still must believe! That is something we must do. So according to you that is a work.
We still must repent! That is something we must do. So according to you that is a work.
Believing is a "do" thing that must indicate action? You cannot think of a single internal idea or concept that is inherently internal, devoid of outside physical actions? If I say "I do believe" or "I do think so," neither of those statements have to mean some outside activity on my part. I can even say "I do feel."
"Do" is an English verb. But, it is not necessarily a verb implying physical activity or action in the outward sense. Believe is something we do but that "act" of faith is internal, nonritualistic.
Ritual or not believe is something someone must do in order to be saved. And yet many religious folks say you don't do anything to be saved. It is all done by Christ.
Therefore you have a problem with your theology do you not?
quote:
quote:
Do you have a definition for works? You must believe in the concept. If you think my definition is wrong, do you have a definition? Or, do you just assume something? So you cannot show me?
It's really an unfair question. Your question is fallacious, like "When did you stop beating your wife?". It is a question designed so as to manipulate me. I am frankly surprised that you think I cannot see through it. And, I have to call you out on it. If I give you the kind of answer answer you are requesting, it would have to be a made up one. If I do not answer it, then you will accuse me of making up a definition.
So you don't have a definition of works? Most religious people say it is anything you do. Is this what you believe?
quote:
I'll make you a deal. If you can present a legitimate biblical definition of "work" of your own, expressly defined by the Bible, and then I will concede the point. If you cannot present a definition of "work" from your point of view, you must concede the point to me.
If you do not agree to either of those two choices, you must withdraw your question. I expect that you will reject all three choices. But frankly, I will not be manipulated into such a fallacious dilemma.
There is nothing fallacious about it. I am trying us to all think through this logically.
I will be glad to give you biblical definitions of works but I asked you first.
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So once your saved your saved from what? Hell is a good answer. The consequences of our past sins also sounds good. However the answer as to why Jesus saved you is found in Matt.1:21. "She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins." Jesus came to save you from your sins. So "sept0409" remember, Jesus did not only come to save your soul from the fryingpen, but also from the consequences of the sins of pornography, fornication or whatever else your hanging on to. Why not claim the power that is available to us through Christ? Yes; we can be free from the practice of sin. Acts 3:26 states "When God raised up His Servant, He sent Him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways." To claim God`s freedom of turning away from our sins as a result of our salvation is described as a blessing.