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salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 11:10:47 AM
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sept0409
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Should repentance be immediate when one is born again in Christ Jesus? Let's say I accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and I give my life to Him, but I choose to repent only of certain sins and not all of my sins. Example, I give up alcohol and smoking and lying but I choose not to give up pornography and fornication for a long time. Was I never born again? Was I ever saved at all?
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 11:45:17 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sept0409
Should repentance be immediate when one is born again in Christ Jesus? Let's say I accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and I give my life to Him, but I choose to repent only of certain sins and not all of my sins. Example, I give up alcohol and smoking and lying but I choose not to give up pornography and fornication for a long time. Was I never born again? Was I ever saved at all?
In all honesty my friend you are contradicting yourself in the question. You cannot accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and only give him part of your heart. It is all or nothing.
He is not really Lord if you are still ruling parts of your life.....Christianity does not work that way.
Jesus says you MUST deny yourself!!!
Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Also Paul tells us that if we live according to the sinful nature you will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 11:58:25 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
You were saved when you believed. However your relationship with your new Master will not be a good one if you choose to hold on to sins the Holy Spirit is telling you to give up.  In other words, you`ll be the most miserable Christian on planet earth. You will not have the joy nor the assurance of your salvation.
Someone is not saved by mental assent or intellectual belief alone.
John 8:31-32 31 Jesus spoke to the Jews who had believed him. "If you obey my teaching," he said, "you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth. And the truth will set you free."
It is plain in the text that the Jews believed in Jesus however Jesus says that is not enough! You are not really a disciple until you obey Jesus then after obeying you know the truth and are set free! Free from what? SIN!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 1:40:39 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL jjbird
He is not really Lord if you are still ruling parts of your life.....Christianity does not work that way.
Jesus says you MUST deny yourself!!!
Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Someone is not saved by mental assent or intellectual belief alone.
John 8:31-32 31 Jesus spoke to the Jews who had believed him. "If you obey my teaching," he said, "you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth. And the truth will set you free."
It is plain in the text that the Jews believed in Jesus however Jesus says that is not enough! You are not really a disciple until you obey Jesus then after obeying you know the truth and are set free! Free from what? SIN!
Hmmm. Looks like this is going to be a discussion about Lordship salvation. Do we make the terms of discipleship as conditions for salvation? Do we redefine belief as meaning discipleship? Denying yourself as a condition for eternal life?j Isn't that a works based salvation, at least in part?
I will grant that intellectual belief is not biblical faith for salvation. But where does Luke 9:23 say that?
Passages like John 3:16 are pretty clear that faith is the condition for salvation.
quote:
ORINAL sep0409
Should repentance be immediate when one is born again in Christ Jesus? Let's say I accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and I give my life to Him, but I choose to repent only of certain sins and not all of my sins. Example, I give up alcohol and smoking and lying but I choose not to give up pornography and fornication for a long time. Was I never born again? Was I ever saved at all?
You are saved when you repent and accept Christ. If your repentance is only partial, your faith suggests reservations and not wholly unto Christ. However, if you renege on your intent to give up certain sins, I wouldn't suggest that you were never really saved. It's certainly going to cause problems with your relationship with God.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 2:28:45 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Hmmm. Looks like this is going to be a discussion about Lordship salvation. Do we make the terms of discipleship as conditions for salvation? Do we redefine belief as meaning discipleship? Denying yourself as a condition for eternal life?j Isn't that a works based salvation, at least in part?
I will grant that intellectual belief is not biblical faith for salvation. But where does Luke 9:23 say that?
We do not make the conditions or terms of salvation God does. God says if we want to follow him we must deny ourselves. I included Luke 9:23 as a reference to repentance......we must deny the sin in our lives and live for God in order to be a disciple of Jesus.
quote:
Passages like John 3:16 are pretty clear that faith is the condition for salvation.
The context of John 3 is showing you where salvation comes from not how someone is initially saved. We must look to up to Jesus on the cross! John 3:14. I agree that faith is the condition however faith and obedience are not mutually exclusive. Never has been!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 2:41:26 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
We do not make the conditions or terms of salvation God does. God says if we want to follow him we must deny ourselves. I included Luke 9:23 as a reference to repentance......we must deny the sin in our lives and live for God in order to be a disciple of Jesus.
Would you care to explain why you included Luke 9:23 as a reference to repentance? The word "sin" isn't mentioned and neither is the word "repentance." The word eternal life isn't mentioned either.
Further, it is talking about what a person has to do every day (deny himself and take up one's cross ). That would suggest, then, a continual process. If such is a condition for salvation, then one can never say they are saved because the process at that point is unfinished.
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quote:
Passages like John 3:16 are pretty clear that faith is the condition for salvation.
The context of John 3 is showing you where salvation comes from not how someone is initially saved. We must look to up to Jesus on the cross! John 3:14. I agree that faith is the condition however faith and obedience are not mutually exclusive. Never has been!
Really? Whoever (subject of the sentence)...believes (verb)...in Him (object)...has eternal life (result). How do you figure?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/18/2009 8:54:38 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 3:22:46 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Would you care to explain why you included Luke 9:23 as a reference to repentance? The word "sin" isn't mentioned and neither is the word "repentance." The word eternal life isn't mentioned either.
Sure! Good question! 
If someone is in sin do they not need to deny themselves that sin in order to follow Jesus? Isn't that what repentance is. Changing your mind and action and turning the other way. In this case away from your desires and obeying Jesus commands.
No eternal life is not mentioned explicitly in this passage however it is definitely a matter of salvation according to Jesus.
Read the next verse!
Luke 9:23-24 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
quote:
Further, it is talking about what a person has to do every day (deny himself and take up one's cross ). That would suggest, then, a continual process.
You are right that it is talking about what disciples of Jesus need to do everyday however it is also something people need to do in order to begin their walk with Jesus as well.
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If such is a condition for salvation, then one can never say they are saved because the process at that point is unfinished.
This statement leads me to believe that you might not have a full understanding of the nature of salvation.
Salvation is past, present & future.
Salvation still has a future aspect too. Hebrews 9:28, 1 Peter 1:5.
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Passages like John 3:16 are pretty clear that faith is the condition for salvation.
The context of John 3 is showing you where salvation comes from not how someone is initially saved. We must look to up to Jesus on the cross! John 3:14. I agree that faith is the condition however faith and obedience are not mutually exclusive. Never has been!
Really? Whoever (subject of the sentence)...believes (verb)...in Him (object)...has eternal life (result). How do you figure?
Again the context defines it.
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 3:39:52 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
If someone is in sin do they not need to deny themselves that sin in order to follow Jesus? Isn't that what repentance is. Changing your mind and action and turning the other way. In this case away from your desires and obeying Jesus commands.
Repentance is not about "denying yourself." Discipleship is about denying yourself. Repentance is about turning away from sin and placing our trust/dependence upon Christ.
quote:
No eternal life is not mentioned explicitly in this passage however it is definitely a matter of salvation according to Jesus.
Read the next verse!
Luke 9:23-24 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
Without eisegesis, where do you get eternal life in this passage?
quote:
You are right that it is talking about what disciples of Jesus need to do everyday however it is also something people need to do in order to begin their walk with Jesus as well.
Well, then. According to that interpretation, a person never really comes to the point where they have been saved, do they?
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This statement leads me to believe that you might not have a full understanding of the nature of salvation.
Salvation is past, present & future.
Your previous statement leads me to believe you are unwilling to read a straightforward sentence.
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Salvation still has a future aspect too. Hebrews 9:28, 1 Peter 1:5.
It does. But in reference to our current state of justification/salvation, we can never say we have it? Is that what you're saying?
quote:
The context of John 3 is showing you where salvation comes from not how someone is initially saved. We must look to up to Jesus on the cross! John 3:14. I agree that faith is the condition however faith and obedience are not mutually exclusive. Never has been!
Context is not a magic word that you can use to conjure up whatever doctrine you want. I am quite aware of what context is. Would you care to demonstrate your "context" and how you came to your conclusion?
quote:
I agree that faith is the condition however faith and obedience are not mutually exclusive. Never has been!
I never said they were. But you have some fuzzy thinking going on here. They are not synonymous. Let's start there.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 3:54:02 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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Welcome to the Forums, sept0409! Looks like the other two are going off in ways you probably did not expect. A lot of that goes on here, so don't be bashful about clarifying your OP and requesting on-topic responses.
quote:
Should repentance be immediate when one is born again in Christ Jesus? First of all, I think you need to define your understanding of repentance. It seems to me that you may be asking about the so-called ordo salutis which describes the sequential mechanism of salvation, if you will. I personally hold to the following: prevenient grace-> faith-> repentance-> salvation.
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Let's say I accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and I give my life to Him, but I choose to repent only of certain sins and not all of my sins. In this hypothetical, how does one "accept Jesus as Lord" but choose to repent of only some sins? Have you heard the saying "Jesus is Lord of all or He is not Lord at all"? Why would any Christian want to hold on to any sins?
quote:
Was I never born again? Was I ever saved at all? So hypothetically, would a sinning Believer go to heaven if s/he dies while persisting in certain sins? Is that what you're asking, sept?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 4:16:56 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Repentance is not about "denying yourself." Discipleship is about denying yourself. Repentance is about turning away from sin and placing our trust/dependence upon Christ.
Repentance is an element of discipleship. They are tied together my friend. That is my point.
quote:
No eternal life is not mentioned explicitly in this passage however it is definitely a matter of salvation according to Jesus.Read the next verse!
Luke 9:23-24 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
Without eisegesis, where do you get eternal life in this passage?
Keep reading the rest of the paragraph.....I wonder what life Jesus is talking about? 
quote:
You are right that it is talking about what disciples of Jesus need to do everyday however it is also something people need to do in order to begin their walk with Jesus as well.
Well, then. According to that interpretation, a person never really comes to the point where they have been saved, do they?
That is not what I said. Biblical scholars do have a theology called Already Not Yet......meaning you are saved but not yet.
We still got to finish the race!
1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
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Salvation still has a future aspect too. Hebrews 9:28, 1 Peter 1:5.
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It does. But in reference to our current state of justification/salvation, we can never say we have it? Is that what you're saying?
No we know we are saved if we are believing in Christ....faithfully obeying Him.
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Context is not a magic word that you can use to conjure up whatever doctrine you want. I am quite aware of what context is. Would you care to demonstrate your "context" and how you came to your conclusion?
Read it! The whole chapter not just vs 16
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I agree that faith is the condition however faith and obedience are not mutually exclusive. Never has been!
I never said they were. But you have some fuzzy thinking going on here. They are not synonymous. Let's start there.
Faith means firm persuasion, trust, reliance upon.
If you are firmly persuaded to trust someone you will obey them.
Oddly enough the greek word for disobedience also means unbelief!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 4:58:24 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Repentance is an element of discipleship. They are tied together my friend. That is my point.
No. Discipleship involves a lifetime commitment to something. The meaning of repentence is "turning around," so to speak.quote:
quote:
Without eisegesis, where do you get eternal life in this passage?
Keep reading the rest of the paragraph.....I wonder what life Jesus is talking about?
Oh, no you don't. You are the one who cited "context" as your reason. You spell it out for me if you think it is there. I don't think it is there. If I don't think it is there, for me to reread or read further won't put it there.
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That is not what I said. Biblical scholars do have a theology called Already Not Yet......meaning you are saved but not yet.
We still got to finish the race!
1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Yes or no? Are we fully justified from sin or not? Are we fully saved from sin when we believe or not? You think the prize Paul is talking about is salvation? Really?
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No we know we are saved if we are believing in Christ....faithfully obeying Him.
How we know we are saved is not the question here. How we are saved is. You apparently don't think that faith is enough but that we also have to actively obey him before we can be saved.
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Faith means firm persuasion, trust, reliance upon.
If you are firmly persuaded to trust someone you will obey them.
Really? Then why do Christians in the NT sometimes disobey Christ?
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Oddly enough the greek word for disobedience also means unbelief!
Sometimes it is translated that way. Disobedience regarding what object?
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 5:20:53 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
No. Discipleship involves a lifetime commitment to something. The meaning of repentence is "turning around," so to speak.
I agree that discipleship involves a lifetime commitment to something. Repentance is included in that discipleship commitment to Christ! Repentance is not just a one time thing! It is something we must continue to do.
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Oh, no you don't. You are the one who cited "context" as your reason. You spell it out for me if you think it is there. I don't think it is there. If I don't think it is there, for me to reread or read further won't put it there.
LOL!!! "Oh, no you don't" That's funny!
If you want to start another thread on the context of John 3 you are welcome to do so and I will be glad to participate.
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Yes or no? Are we fully justified from sin or not? Are we fully saved from sin when we believe or not? You think the prize Paul is talking about is salvation? Really?
There is no such thing as partial justification.....either you are or you aren't!
If someone becomes a disciple of Jesus they are saved and justified.
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How we know we are saved is not the question here. How we are saved is. You apparently don't think that faith is enough but that we also have to actively obey him before we can be saved.
Well biblical faith includes obedience read Hebrews 11.
Yes of course we have to obey Jesus in order to be saved.
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
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Really? Then why do Christians in the NT sometimes disobey Christ?
Why do you or I disobey Christ? We are sinners! Grace covers our shortfall. We cannot perfectly obey the Law like Jesus did however we must strive making every effort!
Hebrews 4:11
Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 8:01:33 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
I agree that discipleship involves a lifetime commitment to something. Repentance is included in that discipleship commitment to Christ! Repentance is not just a one time thing! It is something we must continue to do.
"Continue to do" for what result, salvation? We have to continue repenting in order to be saved?
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LOL!!! "Oh, no you don't" That's funny!
If you want to start another thread on the context of John 3 you are welcome to do so and I will be glad to participate.
Okaaaayyyy. Apparently you don't have anything in the context of John 3 that supports your view.
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There is no such thing as partial justification.....either you are or you aren't! Agreed. So what was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 9? It certainly wasn't salvation.
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If someone becomes a disciple of Jesus they are saved and justified. Judas Iscariot too? Wasn't he a disciple of Christ?
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Why do you or I disobey Christ? We are sinners! Grace covers our shortfall. We cannot perfectly obey the Law like Jesus did however we must strive making every effort!
To what degree is obedience a requirement for salvation?
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 8:16:59 PM
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Concerto
Posts: 128
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A very lively discussion. Amazing how each person thinks they are 100%, without error, without any potential for incorrect Bible interpretation, in other words, infallible in their statements. So many verses can be given to support many thoughts on the concept of salvation.
"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." There are some things about salvation that we simply do not understand.
C
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 8:35:36 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
I agree that discipleship involves a lifetime commitment to something. Repentance is included in that discipleship commitment to Christ! Repentance is not just a one time thing! It is something we must continue to do.
"Continue to do" for what result, salvation? We have to continue repenting in order to be saved?
Of course! Read the book of Hebrews.....it is a whole urging not to give up on following Jesus.
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LOL!!! "Oh, no you don't" That's funny!
If you want to start another thread on the context of John 3 you are welcome to do so and I will be glad to participate.
quote:
Okaaaayyyy. Apparently you don't have anything in the context of John 3 that supports your view.
Part of having a good discussion is listening. You obviously are not.....if you want to start a discussion on it lets do in its proper place. Did you hear me this time? START A THREAD AND I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO DISCUSS THE CONTEXT OF JOHN 3!!!!!
OK? Can you acknowledge that?
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There is no such thing as partial justification.....either you are or you aren't! Agreed. So what was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 9? It certainly wasn't salvation.
Paul is speaking of eternal life! Which is only given to those who are saved.
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If someone becomes a disciple of Jesus they are saved and justified. Judas Iscariot too? Wasn't he a disciple of Christ?
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Why do you or I disobey Christ? We are sinners! Grace covers our shortfall. We cannot perfectly obey the Law like Jesus did however we must strive making every effort!
To what degree is obedience a requirement for salvation?
To what degree? I don't understand your question. Can you be more specific?
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 9:00:49 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
"Continue to do" for what result, salvation? We have to continue repenting in order to be saved?
Of course! Read the book of Hebrews.....it is a whole urging not to give up on following Jesus.
If we have to continue repenting in order to be saved, then you don't believe that salvation is by faith alone. Apparently, you believe as Arminians do that we assist in our salvation?
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Part of having a good discussion is listening. You obviously are not.....if you want to start a discussion on it lets do in its proper place. Did you hear me this time? START A THREAD AND I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO DISCUSS THE CONTEXT OF JOHN 3!!!!!
OK? Can you acknowledge that?
Oh, I heard you alright. I am quite familiar with John chapter 3. As many times as I have read it, I have never seen anything in it such as you are saying. I have never read any commentary which said the same thing that you have said. It is clear that salvation is by faith in Christ and John 3 says that, I thought perhaps you would tell me how you got that out of it.
Your obvious attempts to avoid that conclusion tells me that you know your thesis is without support in the text.quote:
quote:
Agreed. So what was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 9? It certainly wasn't salvation.
Paul is speaking of eternal life! Which is only given to those who are saved.
That is not what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 9.
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quote:
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Why do you or I disobey Christ? We are sinners! Grace covers our shortfall. We cannot perfectly obey the Law like Jesus did however we must strive making every effort!
To what degree is obedience a requirement for salvation?
To what degree? I don't understand your question. Can you be more specific?
If we must obey to be saved, and we do not obey perfectly, your interpretation requires that imperfect obedience we cannot be saved in this life.
If we must keep striving for obedience, our obedience is not complete and therefore our salvation is not complete. I started to think that you believe people can be saved in this life. The only other conclusion is that there are degrees of obedience. Somewhere along there people get saved, i.e. some degree of obedience results in salvation. Until such a time, they are not saved. Is that what you are saying?
The disconnects how you got that out of scripture makes me ask the question.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 9:02:09 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Concerto
A very lively discussion. Amazing how each person thinks they are 100%, without error, without any potential for incorrect Bible interpretation, in other words, infallible in their statements. So many verses can be given to support many thoughts on the concept of salvation.
Nope. I never said that and I don't think that. I believe that most of us understand imperfectly. But to make sense out of it we discuss it.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 9:35:13 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
"Continue to do" for what result, salvation? We have to continue repenting in order to be saved?
Of course! Read the book of Hebrews.....it is a whole urging not to give up on following Jesus.
If we have to continue repenting in order to be saved, then you don't believe that salvation is by faith alone. Apparently, you believe as Arminians do that we assist in our salvation?
Assist in salvation? Nope...not at all. Salvation comes only from God. Christ provides it and we either accept or decline the free gift.
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Part of having a good discussion is listening. You obviously are not.....if you want to start a discussion on it lets do in its proper place. Did you hear me this time? START A THREAD AND I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO DISCUSS THE CONTEXT OF JOHN 3!!!!!
OK? Can you acknowledge that?
Oh, I heard you alright. I am quite familiar with John chapter 3. As many times as I have read it, I have never seen anything in it such as you are saying. I have never read any commentary which said the same thing that you have said. It is clear that salvation is by faith in Christ and John 3 says that, I thought perhaps you would tell me how you got that out of it.
Your obvious attempts to avoid that conclusion tells me that you know your thesis is without support in the text.quote:
Ok now you are just being plain old rude! I asked you nicely to start a thread on John 3 and I will be more than happy to talk about it.
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Agreed. So what was Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 9? It certainly wasn't salvation.
Paul is speaking of eternal life! Which is only given to those who are saved.
That is not what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 9.
So the prize is not eternal life? Is it not salvation?
The same Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 9 also wrote Philippians 3!!
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
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Why do you or I disobey Christ? We are sinners! Grace covers our shortfall. We cannot perfectly obey the Law like Jesus did however we must strive making every effort!
To what degree is obedience a requirement for salvation?
To what degree? I don't understand your question. Can you be more specific?
If we must obey to be saved, and we do not obey perfectly, your interpretation requires that imperfect obedience we cannot be saved in this life.
Not at all. We know exactly what Jesus told us to do in order to be saved. Beleive, repent & be baptized. All these three things he saved do and you will be saved.
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 10:14:25 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
If we have to continue repenting in order to be saved, then you don't believe that salvation is by faith alone. Apparently, you believe as Arminians do that we assist in our salvation?
Assist in salvation? Nope...not at all. Salvation comes only from God. Christ provides it and we either accept or decline the free gift.
Then how do we have to keep on repenting in order to get it?
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Your obvious attempts to avoid that conclusion tells me that you know your thesis is without support in the text.
Ok now you are just being plain old rude! I asked you nicely to start a thread on John 3 and I will be more than happy to talk about it.
And I declined. What we are discussing is the condition(s) of everlasting life. I offered John 3:16 and surrounding verses as support for my belief and you told me context did not support my thesis. I see no reason to start another thread.quote:
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That is not what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 9.
So the prize is not eternal life? Is it not salvation?
No, it is not. It is a crown/prize, i.e. rewards for faithful service. See 1 Cor 9:24.
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12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal ... by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
There are a couple of interpretive options for the "salvation" mentioned in Phil. 1. Most likely, it refers to Paul's release from prison in some sense: release from prison by his physical death being my preferred option.
Salvation, in the NT, need not refer to getting to heaven or anything like that. Several scriptures demonstrate that it cannot always refer to that.
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Not at all. We know exactly what Jesus told us to do in order to be saved. Beleive, repent & be baptized. All these three things he saved do and you will be saved.
In that case you are an Arminian. And you don't believe in salvation by faith apart from works.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/17/2009 10:38:19 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
If we have to continue repenting in order to be saved, then you don't believe that salvation is by faith alone. Apparently, you believe as Arminians do that we assist in our salvation?
Assist in salvation? Nope...not at all. Salvation comes only from God. Christ provides it and we either accept or decline the free gift.
Then how do we have to keep on repenting in order to get it?
Because Jesus commanded it! Why else?
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Your obvious attempts to avoid that conclusion tells me that you know your thesis is without support in the text.
Ok now you are just being plain old rude! I asked you nicely to start a thread on John 3 and I will be more than happy to talk about it.
And I declined. What we are discussing is the condition(s) of everlasting life. I offered John 3:16 and surrounding verses as support for my belief and you told me context did not support my thesis. I see no reason to start another thread.
Well now you are changing the subject. I also agree that John 3:16 is a condition for everlasting life. That is not what we were discussing.
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That is not what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 9.
So the prize is not eternal life? Is it not salvation?
No, it is not. It is a crown/prize, i.e. rewards for faithful service. See 1 Cor 9:24.
Ok...well you have the weight of scholarship completely against you. Even scholars I disagree with on many issues agree that this is speaking about salvation/eternal life.
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12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal ... by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
There are a couple of interpretive options for the "salvation" mentioned in Phil. 1. Most likely, it refers to Paul's release from prison in some sense: release from prison by his physical death being my preferred option.
Salvation, in the NT, need not refer to getting to heaven or anything like that. Several scriptures demonstrate that it cannot always refer to that.
See my last point!
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Not at all. We know exactly what Jesus told us to do in order to be saved. Beleive, repent & be baptized. All these three things he saved do and you will be saved.
In that case you are an Arminian. And you don't believe in salvation by faith apart from works.
Oh ok.....well I guess you are Catholic since you believe Jesus is the Son of God.
Please define works
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/18/2009 8:17:00 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Apparently, you believe as Arminians do that we assist in our salvation?
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In that case you are an Arminian. And you don't believe in salvation by faith apart from works. Sorry, Larry, but your understanding of Arminiam doctrine is nowhere near your understanding of sound Biblical hermeneutics! You demonstrate exactly why I will waste no time on the C&A thread when it is loaded with your brand of misrepresentations and undeserved accusations of Arminian theology. Real Arminians know exactly what saving grace means and how we appropriate it not by works but faith!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/18/2009 9:11:41 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
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In that case you are an Arminian. And you don't believe in salvation by faith apart from works. Sorry, Larry, but your understanding of Arminiam doctrine is nowhere near your understanding of sound Biblical hermeneutics! You demonstrate exactly why I will waste no time on the C&A thread when it is loaded with your brand of misrepresentations and undeserved accusations of Arminian theology. Real Arminians know exactly what saving grace means and how we appropriate it not by works but faith!
I will take that under advisement. You may be entirely correct on that matter. However, I don't have time to respond further at this moment. Besides, this may not be the place for it.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/18/2009 10:33:49 AM
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leftwing
Posts: 213
Joined: 5/25/2009
Status: offline
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Through the years of our lives we become very comfortable about sinning. We grow desensitized to it. Our pop culture worships sin; it is accepted behavior.
No wonder so many people have trouble with this issue. I'm no exception.
I think it is everyone's responsibility to discover what is meant by repentence. I think Jesus said it pretty well when he said, (paraphrasing) confess your sins, ask for forgiveness and turn away from sinning.
We are people. We are sinners. We are capable of great evil or great good. It is our job to develop the spirit God gave us at birth and grow away from sin and toward Him.
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RE: salvation and repentance - 10/18/2009 1:09:10 PM
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Jabez.cd
Posts: 31
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline
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Sept0409,
After reading through the posts on this thread, I can ceratinly understand why you might be confused. Allow me to suggest to you that when we are born again, we start on a journey to become more like Christ. Just as a baby takes many years to become an adult. Our sanctification is not an immediate zapped upon us change but a process of growth. Your raising questions and concerns about several sins that you continue to struggle with is evidence of the Holy Spirit still working within you.
When tempted, Jesus used Scritpure to resit Satan. I find that to overcome sins requires FOCUS--Focus On Christ Using Scripture. In Him and what he has done and not in your efforts, you will find the answer to the question have you been saved. I believe you will also find that such a FOCUS will over time simply push out of your life the desire to remain in those sins you currently haven't left behind.
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