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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 2:50:04 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1780
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Hmm... interesting.
That's not how I understand Genesis 1–3. God created them as humans, from the beginning. He didn't wait to give them skin until after the fall.
He clothed them with animal skins, not human skins.
I'm curious as to how you came to understand the passages as you have described in the text I quoted. Pray tell!
Why would you say animal skins? The scriptures don't tell us that.
Gen 3:21
The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
But, let's back up for a minute, look at what vs 19 says:
Gen 3:19
By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
I think we get these ideas into our heads of how things were because of picture books and artwork. If we look at what it really says--we see a very different picture. So, that's why I said what I did. 
Do you have a scripture that says clothing was made from animal skins in the Garden that I missed?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 3:04:16 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2105
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Hmm... interesting.
That's not how I understand Genesis 1–3. God created them as humans, from the beginning. He didn't wait to give them skin until after the fall.
He clothed them with animal skins, not human skins.
I'm curious as to how you came to understand the passages as you have described in the text I quoted. Pray tell!
Why would you say animal skins? The scriptures don't tell us that.
Gen 3:21
The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
But, let's back up for a minute, look at what vs 19 says:
Gen 3:19
By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
I think we get these ideas into our heads of how things were because of picture books and artwork. If we look at what it really says--we see a very different picture. So, that's why I said what I did.
Do you have a scripture that says clothing was made from animal skins in the Garden that I missed?
Well, I thought it was in one translation, but I cannot find it. So... I guess it's just what I've been taught since I was child and what I understand now. And seeing illustrations of Adam and Eve before the fall may have some influence on that, but it's hard to know... since their having human flesh was how I understood the story from the very first time I heard it or read it.
And your comment was the first time I had ever heard or read such a concept.
I have heard the teaching that God's making animal-skin clothes for Adam and Eve was the first shedding of blood and foreshadowed Christ's sacrifice -- and was the reason that blood sacrfice was part of the sacrificial system in the Old Testament.
And I don't want to derail the thread, but since I work with this story every year, my curiosity definitely was piqued.
_____________________________
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 4:46:59 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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And the Lord God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.
-Genesis 3:21 (New Living Translation)
Then the LORD God made clothes out of animal skins for the man and his wife.
-Genesis 3:21 (Contemporary English Version)
God made leather clothing for Adam and his wife and dressed them.
-Genesis 3:21 (The Message)
And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them.
-Genesis 3:21 (Young's Literal Translation)
For Adam also and for his wife the Lord God made long coats (tunics) of skins and clothed them.
-Genesis 3:21 (Amplified Bible)
Innocent blood was shed for their sin, just as it was for us on the cross.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 9:17:12 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 940
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
'and so death passed upon all...' Whether we like to believe this, death of the physical body is a result of sin. Yes, Adam was cut off from the Tree of Life, now all mankind will die physically.
quote:
Also see verse 15, 18 and 19 of Romans 5, where Paul compares Adam and Christ. It clearly tells us that by Adam sin and subsequent judgment was imparted or imputed to all or many. Romans 5:15 So also is the free gift not like the offense. For if through the offense of one many are dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto many.
We must remember that Paul's argument is still defending justification by obedience of faith.
Paul is telling us that the two are not comparative.
So also the free gift of justification/righteousness is not like the offense of sin.
For, if through the offense of Adam many are dead, because the way of the tree of life was cut off;
how much more potent, by faith, is the grace of God, and the gift by grace which is by one Man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto many, for the path to Jesus is not cut off.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Lets follow the analogy:
"as by"
"even so by"
1.
by the offence
by the righteousness
2.
of one (Adam)
of one (Jesus)
3.
judgment came
the free gift came
4.
upon all men
upon all men
5.
to condemnation (with no repenting)
unto justification of life (with repenting)
Therefore, in whatever way that judgment cam upon all men, so also justification came upon all men; by choice of reacting to something.
If Justification is not forced upon all men, then is condemnation not forced upon all men.
However, both have come upon all men: condemnation through the choice which Adam made, and justification through Jesus, which comes through a choice on our part of obedience to repent in faith.
It is the individual's choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.
If you live in sin, which all men have chosen to do starting with Adam, you will be condemned.
If you live in God, which some men will choose to do by Jesus, you will be justified.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
We must remember that Paul's argument is still defending justification by obedience of faith.
notice the word ''as by'' & "so by"
This is a comparison of the two.
I put brackets to for better understanding;
Just as through the one mans disobedience, [in like manner of disobedience] the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, [in like manner of obedience] so shall the many be made righteous.
It must be this way, otherwise you get universal salvation.
If the many were made sinners involuntarily without choice, the many must be made righteous involuntarily without choice.
quote:
Romans 3:23 clearly tells us that we all have sinned...
Read this for understanding on Romans 3:23
quote:
In Hebrews 7:9-10, if Levi could pay tithes while he was yet in Abraham's loins, not even been born, how much more us who were in Adam's loins when he sinned, receive a fallen sinful nature? We may not have sinned after the same manner but nevertheless we sinned. Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.
"as I may so say..." This is an idiom.
Do not make doctrines from idioms.
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Jesus was of the seed of God No, Jesus was the Seed of Abraham (Gal 3:16).
quote:
and as such came in the likeness of man in order to condemn sin in the flesh and satisfy the sin debt. Yep, Jesus was as human as you & I, but He is also God.
Jesus did not use any of His "Godness" to conquer the world and sin.
God defeated Sin, Death and Satan in Satan's own turf, stripping Himself of His divine authority and taking on the form of a servant. God exposed Himself to all the elements, poverty, hunger and sufferings of this world.
1Corinth 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
“Sinful flesh” means “flesh which is able to sin”, not that flesh is sinful in & of it’s self, which is a Gnostic belief.
This verse is telling us that Jesus was made human as we are, just as the following Scriptures.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God:
:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, came out of a woman, made under the law,
Hebrews 2:14 Since then the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the nature of Abraham.
:17 Therefore in all things he had to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
:18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help them that are tempted.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.
quote:
He had to be God in order to take His life back again from the grave. No, All He had to do is not sin.
quote:
The temptation served to prove His sinlessness. No, His resurrection proved His sinlessness
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 9:30:17 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 940
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
Just a thought.
(Psalms 51:5) - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Yep, David was conceived in sin.
So was my nephew, his mam, my sister was not maried at the time of his conception.
therefore, my nephew can say that along with David; he was conceiven in sin.
But those who were not conceived in any sin can not say what Davis said about his birth.
Read this for better understandin of this verse.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 9:34:17 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
Status: offline
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I'm sure someone posted this verse already, but ... Rom. 5:12 is pretty clear to me when sin entered the world.
_____________________________
Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 9:36:52 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 940
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It did away with original sin, if there was ever any original sin in the first place So why do people sin if there is no longer any sinful nature from original sin? Because they choose to just as Adam & Eve with out sin nature.
Furthermore, Lucifer chose to sin with out a sin nature.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 9:44:02 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 940
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychusquote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46quote:
ORIGINAL: drmarkquote:
It did away with original sin, if there was ever any original sin in the first place So why do people sin if there is no longer any sinful nature from original sin? Probably for the same reason the Adam and Eve sinned. They certainly had no original sin, nor even a sin nature. Nevertheless, they sinned, for whatever reason. But, until the incarnation of Christ, they were the last humans to enter life with the ability to choose NOT to sin. How is sin condemnable if there is no ability to avoid it?
Anything condemnable must be justified by the choice to do such to deserve it.
If mankind is condemned because the can not do anything else, then they are victims of condemnation and not criminals deserving it.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 9:56:02 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 940
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorSteveMT
If original sin is gone, that means that theoretically, a person could be born in the smallest village in the most remote place on earth without any outside influence of sin and live a sinless life. Which would basically negate the death of Christ seeing as how this person would no longer need Christ's sacrifice for their sins Gee, you make obaying God sound criminal.
You think that a man who would love God all his life and never sin against God sound like it's the worst thing which could posibly happen.
quote:
...andd could therefore get to Heaven without Christ. This would be wrong.
If theere aver was such a great man who loves God enough to never sin against HIM, that man would still need to call Jesus Lord.
Sinnlessness does not negate faith, it magnifies faith.
quote:
Of course this is decidedly unscriptural. What?
Obediance to God is never unscriptural!!!
What Bible are you reading?
quote:
"no one comes to the Father but by me" That would be Jesus's words. Being sinnless, one must have Jesus aa Lord, He still comes to the Father through faith; great faith.
quote:
"There are none righteous, no not one" Please read this.
It is a very easy read, & interesting.
quote:
"ALL (I'll say it again for my own emphasis) ALL ALL ALL have sinned and fallen short" All races, nations, etc. “both Jews and Gentiles”
There is no difficulty here if a single individual was sinless because it would not nullify righteousness by faith. Sinlessness would include faith in everything one understood about God anyway. Since this individual's obedience would not be INHERITABLE or TRANSFERRABLE by physical reproduction or by partaking in circumcision or any religious ceremony, there would not be any group who could say "We are better than they." (vs. 9). As long as no one can say that they are better than someone else because of their race, knowledge of the torah, etc. then Paul has made his point successfully and righteousness by faith can be established on this level ground.
quote:
"If we say we have no sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us" If we say that we have no sin ON OUR RECORD we are a liar and the truth is not in us.
1. This passage must always be looked at in context. The entire book of John must be consulted, especially verses 1:7-10, 2:1. Those who isolate this passage usually twist its meaning to be contrary to the rest of the epistle which is about moral perfection. The meaning of a verse is always lost or misunderstood when scripture isolation is practiced. The immediately surrounding context gives us much clarity into this verse.
2. The phrase, "have no sin" in verse 8 could mean two things. It could mean "have no sin" in your present conduct, or it could mean "have no sin" on your record. Verse 10 is very clear that John is talking about those who deny having any disobedience on their record by saying "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." None can deny that they have sinned or disobeyed in the past, but Christians can say that they presently obey God.
3. Verse 7 and 9 promise, not merely the pardon of sin, but also cleansing from sin. There is a proper distinction made between forgiveness and cleansing, “to forgive us our sins, AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” These passages promise not only forgiveness of sin but also freedom from sin. They promise freedom, not merely from some sins, but freedom from "all" sins, "to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness".
4. The man spoken of in verse 8 is the man who had not yet experienced verse 9. That is, the deceived man who denies having any sin is the one who has not yet confessed their sins, been forgiven of their sins, and has had their sins cleansed out of their life. Verse 8 is directed to, or specifically talking about, the man who has not yet been forgiven and cleansed as described in verse 9. Verse 9 is written as the solution to the sin described in verse 8.
5. If 1:8 means that nobody can state that Jesus Christ has cleansed them from all sin, then saying that you have experienced 1:9 makes you a liar. This interpretation of 1:8 would mean that believing 1:9 would make you “deceived”.
6. If "have no sin" means that no Christian can state as Paul did that we are presently "free from sin" (Romans 6:22), then John immediately contradicts his purpose as stated in 2:1, "these things write I unto you, that ye sin not." This interpretation would mean that John was writing this epistle so that we would “deceive ourselves” and so that “the truth” would not be “in us”. Why would John write them so that they “sin not” if when they believe that they “sin not” they are simply “deceived” without “the truth”?
7. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you claim to presently keep God's commandments, then 2:3-4 is a total contradiction. These passages state that "we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Such an interpretation would amount to this: if you claim to keep God's commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (1:8), but if you claim to know God but do not keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (2:4). So the truth would not be in the one who claims to keep God's commandments, and the truth would not be in the one who says they know God yet breaks His commandments. Then the only logical conclusion would be that nobody knows God, if the Bible teaches that everyone presently breaks God’s commandments and you cannot know God if you presently break His commandments.
8. If 1:8 means that we all always have sin in our lives, then we do not "abideth in him" and have "not seen him, neither known him" according to 3:6, we are all "of the devil" according to 3:8, and we have not been born of God according to 3:9.
9. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you state that you no longer break God's commandments, then the Apostle John is a liar because he says "we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight" in 3:22. According to the popular interpretation of 1:8, this would make the Apostle “deceived”, it would mean that the Apostle was without “the truth” because he claimed to “keep his commandments”.
10. The difference between the children of God and the children of the devil, is that the children of God do what is righteous, but the children of the devil commit sin, according to 3:8-10. This could not be a proper or accurate distinction if 1:8 means that everyone converted or not has present disobedience in their life.
11. The meaning of this passage is clear: If a man claims that they have never sinned, that they have no sin on their record, they are deceived. But if they confess that they have sinned, their sin can be both forgiven and cleansed out of their lives, so that they will walk in holiness and righteousness.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 11:05:45 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 801
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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You forgot one point in Romans... 'the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners' as long as this verse in Romans 5 states such, I am inclined to believe that we inherited a sin nature from Adam. Coupled with David stating that he was shaped in iniquity.
No one in this thread or in this world can say that they walk or walked this walk of faith without failure. Nobody! Most of you who hold to the sinless perfection dogma just revealed that you are arrogant because no one is perfect. Why would the God, in Exodus, I John...say that He has mercy on thousands who love Him and keep His commandments if we are absolutely perfect?
According to Psalm 119 Torah is truth and to keep YHWH commandments is to hold dear to guard or be in favor of God's commandments. You may not always live up to Yah's righteousness, however you allow God's word to convict you to walk this walk of faith knowing that greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. I can say so much on this.
What is sin according to the Scriptures?
It's in I John...If sin is transgression of the law (Torah) then righteousness means one who keeps Torah. It's the righteousness of God because it came from God and not man.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 11:28:37 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
You forgot one point in Romans... 'the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners' as long as this verse in Romans 5 states such, I am inclined to believe that we inherited a sin nature from Adam. Coupled with David stating that he was shaped in iniquity.
And the rest of that verse states, ". . . so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.." As long as this verse in Romans 5 states such, I'm inclined to believe that anything we would have inherited from Adam was canceled, negated, nullified by the atonement of Christ.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 11:46:25 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 613
Joined: 7/21/2009
From: The South, In The Good Ol' U.S. of A.
Status: offline
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This post is to Mister Chuck Finney:
The doctrine of original sin is false because:
1. It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.
How so, sir?
2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than blame for his sins.
How so?
3. It excuses the sinner.
How so?
4. It makes God responsible for sin.
How?
5. It dishonors God. It makes him arbitrary, cruel, and unjust.
How?
6. It causes ministers to wink at and excuse sin.
How?
7. It begets complacency and a low standard of religion among Christians.
How?
8. It is a stumbling-block to the unsaved.
How?
9. It makes Jesus a sinner or it must deny his humanity.
How? There is a very good explanation as to why Christ was not born with original sin.
10. It contradicts the Bible.
How?
11. It "adds to" and "takes from" the Bible. God warns against this in Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18, 19.
How?
12. It begets false doctrines and false interpretations of the Scriptures.
How?
13. It is ridiculous, absurd, and unreasonable. It contradicts the necessary and irresistible affirmations of every man's consciousness and reason, which is something that no true doctrine of the Word of God could do.
How?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 11:49:08 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 613
Joined: 7/21/2009
From: The South, In The Good Ol' U.S. of A.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
Just a thought.
(Psalms 51:5) - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Yep, David was conceived in sin.
So was my nephew, his mam, my sister was not maried at the time of his conception.
therefore, my nephew can say that along with David; he was conceiven in sin.
But those who were not conceived in any sin can not say what Davis said about his birth.
Read this for better understandin of this verse.
Sir,
That view is not valid or logical. If David was born out of wedlock (emphasis on "if", as you're taking some liberties in saying such), that would have no bearing upon whether or not he was, quote, "wicked".
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 11:52:37 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 613
Joined: 7/21/2009
From: The South, In The Good Ol' U.S. of A.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
"There are none righteous, no not one" Please read this.
It is a very easy read, & interesting.
Sir,
Their explanation was utterly absurd. Those men were righteous because of His, God's righteousness! NO MAN is righteous on His own! God calls our good works "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). No one is righteous through their own doings. No one.
Look at this verse:
(Romans 7:18 ) - "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
I could provide many other verses like this.
The flesh, sir, has no good in it. Humans are utterly evil. We are born that way, we act that way. He have a bad heritage. We've got original sin.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/15/2009 9:57:22 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
But, until the incarnation of Christ, they were the last humans to enter life with the ability to choose NOT to sin. Very interesting comment, Eutychus. Why would it not be until the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost that people were then able to choose NOT to sin? That makes more sense to me than pinpointing the moment of Mary's conception.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/15/2009 11:20:45 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
But, until the incarnation of Christ, they were the last humans to enter life with the ability to choose NOT to sin. Very interesting comment, Eutychus. Why would it not be until the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost that people were then able to choose NOT to sin? That makes more sense to me than pinpointing the moment of Mary's conception.
You are correct as far as humans are concerned. I was thinking more in terms of Christ Himself. He, like Adam, entered life in human form with the ability to NOT sin because His nature was not corrupted by inheriting Adam's sin-flawed nature.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/15/2009 2:53:37 PM
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ChuckFinney
Posts: 42
Joined: 10/12/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
This post is to Mister Chuck Finney:
The doctrine of original sin is false because:
1. It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.
How so, sir?
2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than blame for his sins.
How so?
3. It excuses the sinner.
How so?
4. It makes God responsible for sin.
How?
5. It dishonors God. It makes him arbitrary, cruel, and unjust.
How?
6. It causes ministers to wink at and excuse sin.
How?
7. It begets complacency and a low standard of religion among Christians.
How?
8. It is a stumbling-block to the unsaved.
How?
9. It makes Jesus a sinner or it must deny his humanity.
How? There is a very good explanation as to why Christ was not born with original sin.
10. It contradicts the Bible.
How?
11. It "adds to" and "takes from" the Bible. God warns against this in Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18, 19.
How?
12. It begets false doctrines and false interpretations of the Scriptures.
How?
13. It is ridiculous, absurd, and unreasonable. It contradicts the necessary and irresistible affirmations of every man's consciousness and reason, which is something that no true doctrine of the Word of God could do.
How?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
Hi Crush,
The answers to your questions can be found here http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs07.htm
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/15/2009 6:34:59 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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As humans do we inherit Adam's sin-flawed nature?
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/15/2009 11:21:12 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 801
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Had a chance to fully read you post, Diocletic.
The phrase 'Seed of' simply mean offspring or descendent...Jesus is the Son of God. Period.
If Jesus was not tempted in all points He could not be found without sin. The proof is found in Him overcoming temptation. Without a test their can be no true testimony, which in His case His claim to be without sin.
I will agree with you, man does have the ability before and after Calvary to choose to live upright. Jesus told individuals to 'Go and sin no more.'
Deut says something to the effect, 'I stand before this day life and death...choice life.'
Abraham was told to walk upright and be perfect...
And the list goes on and on.
I've enjoyed reading the posts and am learning more. I know that we will judged upon our actions... I cam certainly see your point. My thing is this, we all have to stand before the righteous judge and we all had made choices that have gone contrary to His will. Otherwise we would have no need of a Saviour.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/16/2009 8:39:14 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
You are correct as far as humans are concerned. Okay, Euty, I see where you were coming from. But don't forget, the Incarnate Christ was just as fully human as Adam or us!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/16/2009 9:55:57 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
As humans do we inherit Adam's sin-flawed nature?
Just for clarity:
Are you implying that you inherited an unflawed nature fully capable of choosing to obey God in everything, even from the crib?
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/16/2009 10:44:32 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 6317
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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Genesis 1:
26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
In reading the above verses from Genesis 1, I believe we learn that God created man sinless and perfect or else He would not have called all that He made very good
Genesis 2:
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
God has commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 3:
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
Adam and Eve have both now eaten of the forbidden fruit. They have both disobeyed God and have committed the first sin. This is, or at least can be classified as the “Original Sin”. The term original sin does not appear in my Bible, but I have no problem with it’s existence based on the above verses.
Does that original sin follow us and are we held accountable for it? I do not believe we are. I believe we are held accountable only for our own actions.
However, there is still that “sin nature” thing we have to deal with. To determine if we have a sin nature, first one has to define what a sin nature is. In reading further in Genesis I find that God put a curse on the serpent and mankind. Although it is not spelled out I believe one or part of that curse is what some people refer to as a sin nature. To me this simply means we as human have a propensity to sin. In other words we are prone to yield to the temptations and desires of the flesh. Given that meaning I have to agree we have a “sin nature.”
I will stop at this point because I do not wish to spark any other discussion that would be off topic. Beside this is probably the longest post I have made.
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At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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