|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 3:40:14 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4622
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
We have a treasure in vessels of clay. We still retain our sin nature.
The effects of the Fall will be in us until we are glorified. "Vessels of clay" refers to the frail, weak, and imperfect physical bodies we operate in while living in this fallen world. It has nothing to do with the sinful nature as a spiritual aspect of our being. Any Believer can be cleansed from the sinful nature by grace through faith and live victoriously over willful sin while still occupying our vessels of clay!
(I don't agree with all of your thoughts on this, rwe.  )
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 3:51:28 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
gd46, are you actually reading what you're posting here? Sin is not "effectual" for anything - it is the "default setting"! The Atonement is the effectual means by which any sinner who believes in Christ receives eternal life despite their sins. This is the simple concept called "unlimited Atonement and conditional election". If the Atonement did away with sin, then why do people continue to sin and be lost in hell 1980 years after the Cross? Your reasoning about the "power of original sin" is completely illogical!
The atonement did not do away with sin. It did away with original sin, if there was ever any original sin in the first place (which I'm not completely convinced of at this point).
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 3:56:21 PM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Original sin may have existed prior to the resurrection of Christ but the atonement canceled out any and all the effects of any so-called original sin.
If there are no longer any effects of the Fall, what is sanctification for?
For the perfection of the imperfect, that what.
Absolutely. But are people imperfect because of Adam's sin or because of their own? I submit that it's because of their own sin, not the effects of the Fall which have been canceled out by the atonement.
quote:
quote:
The the Bible says it. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22). If all will be made alive in Christ then all are no long dying in Adam. Unless, of course, one thinks that sin overpowers the atonement. I don't. The Bible says no such thing.
Well, I'll disagree with you there. I even gave the reference for the verse. I don't know how anyone can boldly state that the Bible says no such thing when its staring them right in the face.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 4:08:43 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 4622
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
It did away with original sin, if there was ever any original sin in the first place So why do people sin if there is no longer any sinful nature from original sin?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/13/2009 7:10:10 PM
|
|
|
ChuckFinney
Posts: 42
Joined: 10/12/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
'and so death passed upon all...' Whether we like to believe this, death of the physical body is a result of sin.
Also see verse 15, 18 and 19 of Romans 5, where Paul compares Adam and Christ. It clearly tells us that by Adam sin and subsequent juggment was mparted or imputed to all or many.
Romans 3:23 clearly tells us that we all have sinned...
In Hebrews 7:9-10, if Levi could pay tithes while he was yet in Abraham's loins, not even been born, how much more us who were in Adam's loins when he sinned, receive a fallen sinfull nature? We may not have sinned after the same manner but nevertheless we sinned.
Jesus was of the seed of God and as such came in the likeness of man in order to condemn sin in the flesh and satisfy the sin debt. He had to be God in order to take His life back again from the grave. The temptation served to prove His sinlessness.
Hello LBolt,
I see you felt compelled to start a thread after my orignial thread.
The theory of original sin is not in the Bible. Let's address your proof texts.
Eternal death passes on all... who sin... not physical death... Physical death is a result of the curse.
As far as Romans 5 goes:
VI. Rom. 5:12, 18, 19 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
This passage does not teach the doctrine of original sin. It does not teach that men are born sinners. It does not teach that sin is transmitted physically or any other way from Adam to his descendants. It does not teach that the sin of Adam was imputed to his descendants. It does not teach that men have sinned "in Adam." On the contrary, Romans 5:14 teaches that Adam's sin was not the sin of his descendants: "Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." (Those that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression were certainly sinners. But their sin was different from the sin of Adam. They had sinned before Moses gave the law, and had only sinned against the law of their conscience, and not against a positive precept, as had Adam. Rom. 5:13-14. And the fact that Paul says they "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression" shows that Paul did not consider the sin of Adam to be their sin.)
Rom. 5:12-19 does not in any way teach the doctrine of original sin. Sheldon tells us what it does teach:
The Apostle here draws a comparison between the evil potency in the sinning Adam and the beneficent or saving potency in the righteous Christ...Both are pictured rather according to their tendency than according to literal fact. Surely the potency of grace in Christ does not actually come upon all men unto justification of life, but it tends to that end, and hence is so described. In like manner the evil potency in the sinning Adam is characterized according to its tendency.
To interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage; for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So, for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force and physical necessity when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning to them when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is once again an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin.
Paul does not affirm an involuntary, necessary, or irresistible connection between either the sin of Adam and mankind, or the righteousness of Christ and mankind. Otherwise, verse 18 would teach the universal salvation of mankind: "The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." We know that universal salvation is not taught in the Bible. Men are not saved involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the obedience of Christ. Nor are they "made sinners" involuntarily, automatically, and necessarily because of the transgression of Adam. But the context shows that men are "made sinners" in the same way that they are "made righteous," that is, voluntarily or willingly. Rom. 5:18, 19, 21. In verse 18, Paul compares the judgment that came upon all men because of Adam with the free gift of life that came upon all men because of Christ, and says "as" the one, "even so" the other. In verse 19, he compares the way the many were "made sinners" with the way the many were "made righteous," and says "as" the one, "so" the other. And in verse 21, he compares the reign of sin through Adam's transgression with the reign of grace through Christ's righteousness, and says "as" the one, "even so" the other. The context and language of this passage require that we understand the connection between Adam's sin and the sins of the rest of mankind to be moral and voluntary instead of physical and involuntary.
Paul did not teach that men are "made righteous" involuntarily through Christ, nor did he teach that men are "made sinners" involuntarily through Adam. He did not teach that sin is a substance that dwells in the flesh. He did not teach that sin is inherited from Adam through "natural generation." He did not teach that we receive a sinful nature from Adam that is the "fountain and cause" of all our "actual" sins. He did not teach that men are born sinners or that sin is transmitted physically from Adam to his descendants. All of this has been the fabrication of man's imagination. Paul's whole message, and only message, in this passage is the message that the power of Adam's transgression to bring sin, death, and condemnation upon all men has been transcended by a much greater power the glorious, liberating power of God's grace in Christ Jesus, which breaks the power of sin and brings justification, righteousness, and life upon all men. Rom. 5:15-21. - Tom Overstreet - Are men born sinners.
Romans 3:23 tellls us all haved sinned. Doesn't say we have a sinful nature. In the same way doing acts of righteousness doesn't mean we have an inherent righteous nature.
Hebrews 7:
But in what sense did Levi pay tithes while yet in the loins of his father Abraham? It was not in an absolute sense, which would have been impossible, because Levi had no personal existence at the time, but only in a typical sense. The point that the writer to the Hebrews wanted to make was that the Levitical priesthood was inferior to, and superseded by, the priesthood of Christ, who had an unending priesthood "after the order of Melchisedec," and to prove that the Levitical priesthood was inferior to that of Christ, he points out that Levi had descended from Abraham, who, as great as he was, had still paid tithes to Melchisedec, so that Levi also, as a descendant of Abraham (yet in the loins of Abraham when he paid tithes), was also inferior and subservient to Melchisedec and his priesthood. And in this typical sense only, as a descendant of one who had shown he was inferior and subservient to Melchisedec by paying tithes to him, had Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec.
The writer to the Hebrews shows that he is speaking of Levi paying tithes in Abraham in a typical sense by the language he uses. He says, "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham." Heb. 7:19. The phrase "as I may so say" is a limiting or qualifying phrase, which means "I could say," or "I might say." The writer to the Hebrews never gave to his statement about Levi any other than a typical sense, otherwise he would not have limited his statement with the words, "And as I may so say..." Heb. 7:19.
To teach from this passage that either the good or the evil that our ancestors have done is actually done by us is to wrest this passage from its context and to torture it into teaching utter nonsense...
But the whole idea of sinning in Adam is a theological fiction that has been perpetuated to a large extent by Jerome's erroneous translation in the Latin Vulgate of Romans 5:12. He translated the Greek phrase eph o pantes hemarton by the Latin phrase in quo omnes peccaverunt, which means in whom all have sinned. This translation was in error, and Greek students agree that it was. Nevertheless, this error has helped to form and perpetuate the false doctrine that men actually sinned in Adam when he sinned.
The teaching that men sinned in Adam directly contradicts the Bible's plain teaching that men sin in themselves and not in someone else, and there is no other way that men can sin. Paul spoke in Romans 5:14 of "them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." Paul referred here to those who had sinned before the giving of the law and so had not sinned against a positive precept as Adam had, but only against the law of conscience and reason. Paul said they were sinners, but the fact that he said they had "not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression" shows that Paul did not consider the sin of Adam to be their sin... Tom Overstreet - Are men born sinners
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 12:07:39 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It did away with original sin, if there was ever any original sin in the first place So why do people sin if there is no longer any sinful nature from original sin?
Probably for the same reason the Adam and Eve sinned. They certainly had no original sin, nor even a sin nature. Nevertheless, they sinned, for whatever reason.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 9:01:06 AM
|
|
|
Eutychus
Posts: 6340
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It did away with original sin, if there was ever any original sin in the first place So why do people sin if there is no longer any sinful nature from original sin?
Probably for the same reason the Adam and Eve sinned. They certainly had no original sin, nor even a sin nature. Nevertheless, they sinned, for whatever reason.
But, until the incarnation of Christ, they were the last humans to enter life with the ability to choose NOT to sin.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 10:06:39 AM
|
|
|
PastorSteveMT
Posts: 109
Joined: 5/27/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorSteveMT
Christ's death doesn't negate original sin
It's a shame that people actually believe that original sin is more effectual than the atonement of Christ. Paul's whole point in Romans 5 is that the atonement cancels, negates, does away with original sin. To say otherwise is to say the original sin is more powerful than the atonement of Christ.
If original sin is gone, that means that theoretically, a person could be born in the smallest village in the most remote place on earth without any outside influence of sin and live a sinless life. Which would basically negate the death of Christ seeing as how this person would no longer need Christ's sacrifice for their sins and could therefore get to Heaven without Christ. Of course this is decidedly unscriptural.
"no one comes to the Father but by me" That would be Jesus's words.
"There are none righteous, no not one"
"ALL (I'll say it again for my own emphasis) ALL ALL ALL have sinned and fallen short"
"If we say we have no sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us"
And of course Christs atonement is more powerful than sin. That is the only reason a person who is dead in their trespasses and sins can know that they have eternal life. It is through the gift of salvation that was offered to us through Christs death. Christ has power over sin and death. But again, we MUST BE BORN AGAIN in order to actually recieve it.
Christs atonement does not cover me if I refuse to accept it in this life. Christ's atonement does not negate my free will.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 10:09:24 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It did away with original sin, if there was ever any original sin in the first place So why do people sin if there is no longer any sinful nature from original sin?
Probably for the same reason the Adam and Eve sinned. They certainly had no original sin, nor even a sin nature. Nevertheless, they sinned, for whatever reason.
But, until the incarnation of Christ, they were the last humans to enter life with the ability to choose NOT to sin.
True
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 10:16:22 AM
|
|
|
greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorSteveMT
If original sin is gone, that means that theoretically, a person could be born in the smallest village in the most remote place on earth without any outside influence of sin and live a sinless life. Which would basically negate the death of Christ seeing as how this person would no longer need Christ's sacrifice for their sins and could therefore get to Heaven without Christ. Of course this is decidedly unscriptural.
"no one comes to the Father but by me" That would be Jesus's words.
"There are none righteous, no not one"
"ALL (I'll say it again for my own emphasis) ALL ALL ALL have sinned and fallen short"
"If we say we have no sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us"
If it's true that "all have sinned and fallen short" (and I believe it is), that kinda takes away the theoretical argument concerning a hypothetical, primitive villager. "All have sinned and fallen short" regardless of whether there's such a thing as original sin or not.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 10:35:10 AM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorSteveMT
If original sin is gone, that means that theoretically, a person could be born in the smallest village in the most remote place on earth without any outside influence of sin and live a sinless life. Which would basically negate the death of Christ seeing as how this person would no longer need Christ's sacrifice for their sins and could therefore get to Heaven without Christ. Of course this is decidedly unscriptural.
"no one comes to the Father but by me" That would be Jesus's words.
"There are none righteous, no not one"
"ALL (I'll say it again for my own emphasis) ALL ALL ALL have sinned and fallen short"
"If we say we have no sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us"
If it's true that "all have sinned and fallen short" (and I believe it is), that kinda takes away the theoretical argument concerning a hypothetical, primitive villager. "All have sinned and fallen short" regardless of whether there's such a thing as original sin or not.
I love it when people come up with the wildest most impossible hypothetical situations that absolutely NEVER occur in order to disprove a point! Cracks me up everytime!
People got to remember that just like Adam and Eve we are tempted externally by satan.
He is constantly tempted us!
Also sin nature biblically I believe does not refer to our chemical make up as human beings but what we practice!
If someone decides to rob banks by nature he is a bank robber.
The same with sin. By what we decide to do becomes our nature.
If the theory were true of Original Sin then there would be no way for it NOT to be passed on to Jesus through Mary!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 10:40:38 AM
|
|
|
LBolt
Posts: 801
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
|
Chuck Finney,
Thanks for your explanation, I appreciate the dialogue. Although I believe this is a big non essential as I stated before, because when we stand before a holy and righteous God we will not be able to blame Adam, we'll have to answer for ourselves.
I in no wise desire to shift the blame to Adam, we do have the right to choose to walk in YHWH ways. some of them or all of them.
In the Complete Jewish Bible, Romans 5:12 reads like this: Here's is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned.6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time, the Messiah died on behalf of ungodly people. 7 Now it is a rare event when someone gives up his life even for the sake of somebody righteous, although possibly for a truly good person one might have the courage to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in that the Messiah died on our behalf while we were still sinners. 9 Therefore, since we have now come to be considered righteous by means of his bloody sacrificial death, how much more will we be delivered through him from the anger of God's judgment! 10 For if we were reconciled with God through his Son's death when we were enemies, how much more will we be delivered by his life, now that we are reconciled! 11 And not only will we be delivered in the future, but we are boasting about God right now, because he has acted through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, through whom we have already received that reconciliation. 12 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned. 13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah. 14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam's violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offence. For if, because of one man's offence, many died, then how much more has God's grace, that is, the gracious gift of one man, Yeshua the Messiah, overflowed to many! 16 No, the free gift is not like what resulted from one man's sinning; for from one sinner came judgment that brought condemnation; but the free gift came after many offences and brought acquittal. 17 For if, because of the offence of one man, death ruled through that one man; how much more will those receiving the overflowing grace, that is, the gift of being considered righteous, rule in life through the one man Yeshua the Messiah! 18 In other words, just as it was through one offence that all people came under condemnation, so also it is through one righteous act that all people come to be considered righteous. 19 F death, so also grace might rule through causing people to be considered righteous, so that they might have eternal life, through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord. or just as through the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the other man, many will be made righteous. 20 And the Torah came into the picture so that the offence would proliferate; but where sin proliferated, grace proliferated even more. 21 All this happened so that just as sin ruled by means of death, so also grace might rule through causing people to be considered righteous, so that they might have eternal life, through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.
In the Holy Bible from the Ancient Eastern Text, George Lamsa's translation from the Aramaic of the Peshitta reads:
Just as sin entered the world by one man, and death by means of sin, so death was imposed upon all men, inasmuch as they all have sinned...For by one man's disobedience many were made sinners...
This is a rather difficult subject to grasp because as you pointed in your post in the Aramian thread, men who made up there mind to humble their ownselves and obey God's word and have been punished for the choices that they made.
However, this says clearly that by one man's disobedience many were made sinners... It doesn't get any clearer as far as I can see.
The whole point of Hebrews is to illustrate the fact that of Levi being identified with Abraham as paying tithes in Abraham's loins...
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 10:52:16 AM
|
|
|
tdd1975
Posts: 748
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Also sin nature biblically I believe does not refer to our chemical make up as human beings but what we practice!
If someone decides to rob banks by nature he is a bank robber.
The same with sin. By what we decide to do becomes our nature.
That is the silliest thing I have read on these threads in a long time.
Our nature refers to who we are. We do what we do because of who we are not the other way around.
If this isn't true then why does God give us new hearts? If what you are saying is true then we could just start doing good things and give ourselves a new heart. But the bible is clear that we are corrupt to the core. The heart is desperately sick. We are shapen in iniquity and children of wrath by nature.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 10:59:01 AM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Also sin nature biblically I believe does not refer to our chemical make up as human beings but what we practice!
If someone decides to rob banks by nature he is a bank robber.
The same with sin. By what we decide to do becomes our nature.
That is the silliest thing I have read on these threads in a long time.
Our nature refers to who we are. We do what we do because of who we are not the other way around.
If this isn't true then why does God give us new hearts? If what you are saying is true then we could just start doing good things and give ourselves a new heart. But the bible is clear that we are corrupt to the core. The heart is desperately sick. We are shapen in iniquity and children of wrath by nature.
You are referring to today's modern day definition of nature.....you have to remember that works had different meanings in ancient times.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 11:00:08 AM
|
|
|
Eutychus
Posts: 6340
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
People got to remember that just like Adam and Eve we are tempted externally by satan.
He is constantly tempted us!
Satan, a finite being, gets blamed for a lot of things that he doesn't do. James tells us that we are our own source of most of our temptation and sin:
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
-James 1:14-16
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 11:07:11 AM
|
|
|
jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Satan, a finite being, gets blamed for a lot of things that he doesn't do. James tells us that we are our own source of most of our temptation and sin:
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
-James 1:14-16
I knew someone was gonna come right back with this exact passage.....I was going to include in my post but decided not too.
Yes both are true....that is a given
< Message edited by jjbird -- 10/14/2009 11:58:01 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 11:20:54 AM
|
|
|
DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1780
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
If you are going to talk about original sin, then wouldn't it be prudent to look at the text where it occurred?
Gen Chapter 3.
The original sin was disobedience. The serpent convinced them they would not die and they didn't. Not physically from having eaten the fruit. They died spiritually that day and were separated from God because of their disobedience. Their heavenly bodies ceased to exist when He clothed them with skin. Now they were human and were capable of physical death.
Focus, with me on the word disobedience, for a moment. Because of it, Adam and Eve received a "reward" for it vs 16-19. They had ir made before they ate. After, they ate, they were made to endure, toil in hardship, sweat and have painful childbirth. ALL because of their disobedience. From that point on, atonement and blood sacrifice had to be made for their sins.
For the wages of sin are death. A sacrifice had to be made in order to receive eternal life. Adam brought death into the world and Christ's sacrifice atoned for it all-NOT REMOVED IT. The cross is the saving bridge from a sinful life.
Only partakers will be washed clean by the blood of Christ.
We are born into a fallen world, not born with the Word of God written on our hearts. We aren't born knowing Him. We are born with Him knowing us.
He has given us as He gave Adam and Eve- a choice. Being deceived obviously is no excuse for disobedience.
We disobey today. Thank God we have Jesus to run too!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 11:54:04 AM
|
|
|
ChuckFinney
Posts: 42
Joined: 10/12/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It did away with original sin, if there was ever any original sin in the first place So why do people sin if there is no longer any sinful nature from original sin?
Probably for the same reason the Adam and Eve sinned. They certainly had no original sin, nor even a sin nature. Nevertheless, they sinned, for whatever reason.
But, until the incarnation of Christ, they were the last humans to enter life with the ability to choose NOT to sin.
True
That is false.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 12:49:04 PM
|
|
|
ChuckFinney
Posts: 42
Joined: 10/12/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
'and so death passed upon all...' Whether we like to believe this, death of the physical body is a result of sin.
Also see verse 15, 18 and 19 of Romans 5, where Paul compares Adam and Christ. It clearly tells us that by Adam sin and subsequent juggment was mparted or imputed to all or many.
Romans 3:23 clearly tells us that we all have sinned...
In Hebrews 7:9-10, if Levi could pay tithes while he was yet in Abraham's loins, not even been born, how much more us who were in Adam's loins when he sinned, receive a fallen sinfull nature? We may not have sinned after the same manner but nevertheless we sinned.
Jesus was of the seed of God and as such came in the likeness of man in order to condemn sin in the flesh and satisfy the sin debt. He had to be God in order to take His life back again from the grave. The temptation served to prove His sinlessness.
The doctrine of original sin is false because:
1. It makes sin a misfortune and a calamity rather than a crime.
2. It makes the sinner deserve pity and compassion rather than blame for his sins.
3. It excuses the sinner.
4. It makes God responsible for sin.
5. It dishonors God. It makes him arbitrary, cruel, and unjust.
6. It causes ministers to wink at and excuse sin.
7. It begets complacency and a low standard of religion among Christians.
8. It is a stumbling-block to the unsaved.
9. It makes Jesus a sinner or it must deny his humanity.
10. It contradicts the Bible.
11. It "adds to" and "takes from" the Bible. God warns against this in Deut. 4:2 and Rev. 22:18, 19.
12. It begets false doctrines and false interpretations of the Scriptures.
13. It is ridiculous, absurd, and unreasonable. It contradicts the necessary and irresistible affirmations of every man's consciousness and reason, which is something that no true doctrine of the Word of God could do.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 12:53:16 PM
|
|
|
ChuckFinney
Posts: 42
Joined: 10/12/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I just realized this at devontions the other night. Adam and Eve were the only ones who had a choice to sin or not to sin. 
That is false. There are plenty of examples in the OT and NT of unregenerate men not sinning (repenting, humbling themselves, doing good, seeking God, etc). Men don't sin necessarily 100% of the time. Therefore, they have the ability not to sin.
Would you like scriptural examples?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Original sin is in the Bible!!! - 10/14/2009 1:22:26 PM
|
|
|
ChuckFinney
Posts: 42
Joined: 10/12/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
Would you like scriptural examples?
Please do unless you've already posted them somewhere else. 
Yep. Already posted a small list here http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_3701702/mpage_610/tm.htm
Post #: 15230
I have many, many more.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
