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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 10:56:00 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
quote:
I am not aware of anything here that I have said is factually incorrect. Opinion or not, the facts are true.
Absolutely, facts are indeed true. I'm not entirely certain that facts and opinion are synonymous, but opinions can be factual I suppose.
What I meant was that it is a fact that a whole host of people understand terms to mean certain things. The majority opinion may be wrong, but the majority opinion is still the majority opinion.
Anyway, I went to Wikipedia to read up on the matter. It is the only objective article that I could find on the subject.
Baptismal regeneration, the literal meaning of which is "being generated again" (regeneration) "through baptism" (baptismal), is the doctrine within some Christian denominations that holds that salvation is dependent upon, or more precisely, mediated through, the act of baptism; in other words, baptismal regenerationists believe that it is ordinarily necessary for one to be baptized in order to be saved. Not as a denial that faith alone saves, but as a confession of a divinely-ordained means by which the Gospel comes and creates faith. Critics of the concept frequently allege that the concept of baptismal regeneration tends to emphasize form (including the role of water) instead of meaning; supporters of the concept may identify meaning with form and cite biblical passages such as Luke 6:46....
Churches associated with the Restoration movement, which includes the Churches of Christ, are sometimes alleged to support the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, a contention which the Restoration Movement churches themselves deny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptismal_regeneration
If you believe that the doctrine of baptismal regeneration holds that baptism alone saves without regard to any other cause (faith, works, etc), it isn't what this article says. And it isn't any view that I have put forth nor accused you of.
According to the article, the doctrine holds that baptism leads to faith and therefore the gospel or that baptism is a means of creating faith, as a confession of the gospel. To be really honest, it's hard to see a much of difference between the views you have espoused and what is cited in the article. One difference is that the article states that baptism creates faith. I can see how that applies to infants. In Roman Catholicism, the infant is baptized and then later believes. Some Catholics believe that infants who are baptized go to heaven (and I suppose are saved but I don't think they call it salvation) but unbaptized infants do not.
In the Restoration Movement, baptism is the final step in a series of four necessary steps. If you want to split hairs on that basis of both order and what is necessary to precede salvation, I suppose I can see your point. Bear with me for a few days to mull this over. If you can explain a critical difference that makes sense to me then I will apologize.
I absolutely you are saved at baptism however I believe that faith is what saves us when we are baptized. I believe baptism is an instrument of faith receiving God's grace.
Can God save outside of baptism of course He can because God is God and He is not confined to a little box. That being said God explicitly says how to enter into Christ and explicitly says when we receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
After believing and repenting when we are baptized our sins are washed away.
No where in the entire bible does it say that baptism is just a sign. An outward sign of an inward grace.
We are made alive at baptism! Colossians 2:13, Romans 6:11, Ephesians 2:4
We are raised to a new life at baptism! Romans 6:4
Baptism is how we get into Christ! Galatians 3:27
Baptism is when we are born again! John 3:5
Baptism is when we are regenerated! Titus 3:5
Baptism is when our sins are forgiven and when we are given the Holy Spirit! Acts 2:38
Baptism now saves you! 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16
Baptism is when your sins are washed away! Acts 22:16
Baptism is when you call on the name of the Lord! Acts 22:16
Baptism is when we enter God's kingdom! John 3:5
Baptism is when we are united with Christ in His death, burial & resurrection! Romans 6:1-6
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 10:59:50 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
If you are trying to say that Eph. 2:8-9 is not exhaustive enough to eliminate baptism as a precondition, I would say that you are mistaken. I will stand behind that.
I really wish that when folks try to use Eph 2:8,9 as the do all, end all passage on salvation;
(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
That they would include the very next verse that does speak to the part good works plays in the salvation of a Bliever;
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
It seems to me that if there is no good works then there was no salvation.
Thanks
RC
People certainly apply the two verses too broadly. In that I am in agreement. When I use the verse, I use it for the particular reason that I am excluding works as a precondition for salvation. As I think I made clear, I have never intended to use it as a comprehensive proof text as to what was needed for salvation.
The two verses, isolated, tell us nothing about what to place our faith in. Contextually, in the NT, biblically literate Christians hold that it is faith in Christ that is necessary, not faith in faith, or faith in Buddha, Mohammed, etc.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 11:05:13 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
I absolutely you are saved at baptism however I believe that faith is what saves us when we are baptized. I believe baptism is an instrument of faith receiving God's grace.
Can God save outside of baptism of course He can because God is God and He is not confined to a little box. That being said God explicitly says how to enter into Christ and explicitly says when we receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
After believing and repenting when we are baptized our sins are washed away.
No where in the entire bible does it say that baptism is just a sign. An outward sign of an inward grace.
jjbird,
Let me say at the outset, that if you plaster several proof-texts without regard to context in hopes that it addresses my objections properly, you are mistaken. You are about the 500th person to come here and other forums doing exactly that. Proof-texting usually comes across as rather "preachy." And I will tell you right now that doing so, it will roll off my back like a ducks back.
I am quite familiar with the verses, having heard them and seen them dozens of times before.
Insorfar as baptism being merely a sign, gee I cannot remember ever saying that.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 11:19:32 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
I absolutely you are saved at baptism however I believe that faith is what saves us when we are baptized. I believe baptism is an instrument of faith receiving God's grace.
Can God save outside of baptism of course He can because God is God and He is not confined to a little box. That being said God explicitly says how to enter into Christ and explicitly says when we receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
After believing and repenting when we are baptized our sins are washed away.
No where in the entire bible does it say that baptism is just a sign. An outward sign of an inward grace.
jjbird,
Let me say at the outset, that if you plaster several proof-texts without regard to context in hopes that it addresses my objections properly, you are mistaken.
It is not just for you and context is always regarded.
[quote}
You are about the 500th person to come here and other forums doing exactly that. Proof-texting usually comes across as rather "preachy." And I will tell you right now that doing so, it will roll off my back like a ducks back.
I was just sharing scriptures so you can see the continuity and commonality between them concerning the conversion narrative. There is nothing preachy about it.....just studying the bible.
quote:
I am quite familiar with the verses, having heard them and seen them dozens of times before.
Insorfar as baptism being merely a sign, gee I cannot remember ever saying that.
Maybe not but that is not the point. The point is a huge portion of the religious world who believes baptism is not necessary believes that it is just a sign and that is why I said what I said.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 11:39:21 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
jjbird,
quote:
Let me say at the outset, that if you plaster several proof-texts without regard to context in hopes that it addresses my objections properly, you are mistaken.
It is not just for you and context is always regarded.
I'm sure you believe that. But, to be really honest, when I have discussions with CoC, many, many of them don't want to discuss context. They certainly give the concept lip service. I can show context on any number of verses and when they have inadequate responses they return to them [earlier refuted proof texts] as if they never really heard what I said earlier. That is the reason that I seldom post on the other baptism thread.
quote:
I was just sharing scriptures so you can see the continuity and commonality between them concerning the conversion narrative. There is nothing preachy about it.....just studying the bible.
Please understand that if you really want to do something unique and helpful from your perspective, you will not try to get me to chase proof texts. That, basically, is like the proverbial dog chasing his tale.
quote:
Maybe not but that is not the point. The point is a huge portion of the religious world who believes baptism is not necessary believes that it is just a sign and that is why I said what I said.
I don't know how you show that a huge portion of the religious world believes it. Frankly, I would suggest that most people professing themselves to be Christians believe that it is much much more. Baptists comprise the majority protestant group in the US and they certainly teach that it is a sign. Mr Average Joe Baptist Church Member could not tell you anything more about it than that but I am pretty sure they are taught more than that from the pulpit.
BTW, I do believe that baptism is a sign, but I do not believe it is "merely" a sign. Obviously, no scripture says "baptism is a sign" but I believe that I can support the concept biblically. And I do not know why you would disagree with that statement as I stated.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/24/2009 12:09:56 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 12:11:40 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
jjbird,
quote:
Let me say at the outset, that if you plaster several proof-texts without regard to context in hopes that it addresses my objections properly, you are mistaken.
It is not just for you and context is always regarded.
I'm sure you believe that. But, to be really honest, when I have discussions with CoC, many, many of them don't want to discuss context. They certainly give the concept lip service. I can show context on any number of verses and when they have inadequate responses they return to them [earlier refuted proof texts] as if they never really heard what I said earlier. That is the reason that I seldom post on the other baptism thread.
Well that's a shame my friend. I absolutely love discussing context and have many many commentaries of different points of view to consider regarding context.
quote:
I was just sharing scriptures so you can see the continuity and commonality between them concerning the conversion narrative. There is nothing preachy about it.....just studying the bible.
quote:
Please understand that if you really want to do something unique and helpful from your perspective, you will not try to get me to chase proof texts. That, basically, is like the proverbial dog chasing his tale.
And dogs that chase their tails end up looking a little coo coo! 
quote:
Maybe not but that is not the point. The point is a huge portion of the religious world who believes baptism is not necessary believes that it is just a sign and that is why I said what I said.
quote:
I don't know how you show that a huge portion of the religious world believes it. Frankly, I would suggest that most people professing themselves to be Christians believe that it is much much more. Baptists comprise the majority protestant group in the US and they certainly teach that it is a sign. Mr Average Joe Baptist Church Member could not tell you anything more about it than that but I am pretty sure they are taught more than that from the pulpit.
I was speaking from experience of the past 11 yrs in the bible belt discussing the topic with all kinds of religious people. So I was just generalizing basically.
quote:
BTW, I do believe that baptism is a sign, but I do not believe it is "merely" a sign. Obviously, no scripture says "baptism is a sign" but I believe that I can support the concept biblically. And I do not know why you would disagree with that statement as I stated.
I believe it is a sign as well however I also believe it is much more obviously!
< Message edited by jjbird -- 10/24/2009 12:49:22 PM >
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 12:30:12 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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I don't have much more to add to your just finished post except that we pretty much have some common starting points.
Maybe you would like some help posting your comments? Quoted text is supposed to appear in a white box. White boxes within white boxes displayquote previous posts. I put quotes within quotes when the person I am replying to doesn't give enough detail in his response. But I delete as much as possible for brevity's sake.
I generally use Windows' notebook for setting up my response/replies. I do that in case the program stalls or the web site goes out. And I can go back to previous pages if I want to quote something from several days ago.
If I want to quote myself and my opponent, I use this format (altered for clarity's sake):
[ quote ][ quote ] My earlier statement [ /quote ]
Person I am replying to.[ /quote ]
My new reply goes here. If you close up those spaces in the brackets, they will format as quotes within quotes. My explanation here is intended to help you make your replies clear so that there will be no confusion between your new post and my earlier comments.
Then, I cut and paste the whole thing onto a reply box. Finally, I click "Preview" to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. There are red lines underneath to display misspelled words. I fix those misspelled words from a dictionary browser window "ap" Firefox has for me.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/24/2009 1:45:49 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 12:45:41 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I don't have much more to add to your just finished post except that we pretty much have some common starting points.
Maybe you would like some help posting your comments? Quoted text is supposed to appear in a white box. White boxes within white boxes display to quote previous posts. I put quotes within quotes when the person I am replying to doesn't give enough detail in his response. But I delete as much as possible for brevity's sake.
I generally use Windows' notebook for setting up my response/replies. I do that in case the program stalls or the web site goes out. And I can go back to previous pages if I want to quote something from several days ago.
If I want to quote myself and my opponent, I use this format (altered for clarity's sake):
[ quote ][ quote ] My earlier statement [ /quote ]
Person I am replying to.[ /quote ]
My new reply goes here. If you close up those spaces in the brackets, they will format as quotes within quotes. My explanation here is intended to help you make your replies clear so that there will be no confusion between your new post and my earlier comments.
Then, I cut and paste the whole thing onto a reply box. Finally, I click "Preview" to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. There are red lines underneath to display misspelled words. I fix those misspelled words from a dictionary browser window "ap" Firefox has for me.
Thanks man! I know how, just goofed it up this time!  I edited it.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 1:43:09 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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If you edit within a few minutes, it will not say "edited." I don't remember how long CW gives to edit or delete a comment, but the time frame is something like 48-72 hours.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/27/2009 10:33:42 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Intrepidus
Having come from a church of the Restoration Movement, I can state unequivocally that they do believe in baptismal regeneration.
I don't believe that the power is in the water but through your faith.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/9/2009 10:28:39 AM
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Linkoln
Posts: 17
Joined: 3/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Intrepidus
Water baptism is not a precondition for salvation. That which water baptism symbolizes, however, is necessary. No one can be saved unless he/she is born from above and united by faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Water baptism is symbolic of these things. Since it is often the first act of obedience in the life of a Christian, some mistakenly think that water baptism causes salvation. But that goes against so much New Testament teaching that one has to be grossly ignorant of the scriptures to even entertain the notion.
Sadly, the heresy of baptismal regeneration gained a foothold in the so-called 'Restoration Movement' of the Nineteenth Century. That same movement spawned the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, and the Churches of Christ. And the one thing they all seem to have in common (other than each one thinking that it alone is the "one true church") is a strong conviction that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-Intrepidus
You are correct in your assessment!
As a former Pastor of a Restoration Church you have articulated well what they believe and stand for. They say that they are not baptismal regenerationalists but in fact they are. The reason being that they say it is in baptism where God washes away our sins. Sounds like baptismal regeneration to me!
Those who hold to that heretical belief do not have a clear understanding of what justification by faith is. One guy from the Restoration Movement told me that justification meant "To be considered worthy of salvation, but not yet saved." That is the oddest definition of justification that I have ever heard. Clearly he has no understanding of what Paul proclaimed to the Church at Rome or of the example of Abraham in Romans 4. Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15 and that is why he is the Father of faith. Saved by grace through faith. That is what the Bible clearly teaches. When someone adds works to the equation the add things to the Doctrine of Salvation and we know what Paul said about that person in the book of Galatians. When people say that they need baptism to be saved they are wanting to take some credit for their salvation. We owe all to Christ and it is our faith in HIM alone that saves.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/9/2009 10:36:10 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
quote:
ORIGINAL: Intrepidus
Water baptism is not a precondition for salvation. That which water baptism symbolizes, however, is necessary. No one can be saved unless he/she is born from above and united by faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Water baptism is symbolic of these things. Since it is often the first act of obedience in the life of a Christian, some mistakenly think that water baptism causes salvation. But that goes against so much New Testament teaching that one has to be grossly ignorant of the scriptures to even entertain the notion.
Sadly, the heresy of baptismal regeneration gained a foothold in the so-called 'Restoration Movement' of the Nineteenth Century. That same movement spawned the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, and the Churches of Christ. And the one thing they all seem to have in common (other than each one thinking that it alone is the "one true church") is a strong conviction that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-Intrepidus
You are correct in your assessment!
As a former Pastor of a Restoration Church you have articulated well what they believe and stand for. They say that they are not baptismal regenerationalists but in fact they are. The reason being that they say it is in baptism where God washes away our sins. Sounds like baptismal regeneration to me!
Those who hold to that heretical belief do not have a clear understanding of what justification by faith is. One guy from the Restoration Movement told me that justification meant "To be considered worthy of salvation, but not yet saved." That is the oddest definition of justification that I have ever heard. Clearly he has no understanding of what Paul proclaimed to the Church at Rome or of the example of Abraham in Romans 4. Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15 and that is why he is the Father of faith. Saved by grace through faith. That is what the Bible clearly teaches. When someone adds works to the equation the add things to the Doctrine of Salvation and we know what Paul said about that person in the book of Galatians. When people say that they need baptism to be saved they are wanting to take some credit for their salvation. We owe all to Christ and it is our faith in HIM alone that saves.
It is not adding anything if God ordained it and commanded it.
Abraham was declared righteous in Genesis 15 yes but he was already a faithful follower of God when introduced to us in the bible.
Genesis 15 is not describing how Abraham was initially saved. It is speaking about how is faith justifies. How is actions and faith were working together.
Read Hebrews 12!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/9/2009 12:53:40 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
As a former Pastor of a Restoration Church you have articulated well what they believe and stand for. They say that they are not baptismal regenerationalists but in fact they are. The reason being that they say it is in baptism where God washes away our sins. Sounds like baptismal regeneration to me!
To me baptismal regeneration means that when our sins our washed away in baptism its because of the water. I don't know any member of a Restoration Church who believes that. Anything that occurs in baptism is because God does it. The fact that God chooses to do it while we are immersed in water is incidental. He could do what He does in baptism at any time. As to why He chooses to do it in baptism, I couldn't tell you. I just know that the Bible teaches that when we are baptized God forgives our sins and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit among a myriad of others things that occur at baptism.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 11/10/2009 1:49:46 PM >
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/9/2009 2:35:56 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 17
Joined: 3/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
It is not adding anything if God ordained it and commanded it.
Abraham was declared righteous in Genesis 15 yes but he was already a faithful follower of God when introduced to us in the bible.
Genesis 15 is not describing how Abraham was initially saved. It is speaking about how is faith justifies. How is actions and faith were working together.
Read Hebrews 12!
Being justified is being right with God. Read the New Testament!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/9/2009 2:44:01 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 17
Joined: 3/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
As a former Pastor of a Restoration Church you have articulated well what they believe and stand for. They say that they are not baptismal regenerationalists but in fact they are. The reason being that they say it is in baptism where God washes away our sins. Sounds like baptismal regeneration to me!
To me baptismal regeneration means that when our sins our washed away in baptism its not because of the water. I don't know any member of a Restoration Church who believes that. Anything that occurs in baptism is because God does it. The fact that God chooses to do it while we are immersed in water is incidental. He could do what He does in baptism at any time. As to why He chooses to do it in baptism, I couldn't tell you. I just know that the Bible teaches that when we are baptized God forgives our sins and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit among a myriad of others things that occur at baptism.
God does not "choose" to wash away our sins at baptism. This is why people call those with this belief baptismal regenerationalists.
God cleanses us from all sin the moment we place our faith in him. That is what the New Testament teaches.
What denomination are you currently worshiping at?
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/9/2009 3:02:11 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
quote:
It is not adding anything if God ordained it and commanded it.
Abraham was declared righteous in Genesis 15 yes but he was already a faithful follower of God when introduced to us in the bible.
Genesis 15 is not describing how Abraham was initially saved. It is speaking about how is faith justifies. How is actions and faith were working together.
Read Hebrews 12!
Being justified is being right with God. Read the New Testament!
I agree that being justified is being right with God. That is not the issue.
My point is that when Abraham is introduced to us in the bible he is already a faithful follower of God.
Genesis 15 is declaring an already existing truth.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/10/2009 1:48:17 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
God does not "choose" to wash away our sins at baptism. This is why people call those with this belief baptismal regenerationalists. Sure He does. And it's not the baptism that is regenerating one, it's God.
quote:
God cleanses us from all sin the moment we place our faith in him. That is what the New Testament teaches. And where, precisely, does the Bible say that our sins are washed away by our faith?
quote:
What denomination are you currently worshiping at?
I am currently worshiping at a Southern Baptist Church.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/10/2009 3:15:05 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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The original definition of Baptismal Regeneration is that the power is in the water. Comes from Catholic teachings when they perpetuated the doctrine of Original Sin to promote infant baptism.
Baptism in the apostles time and in the centuries following was always for remission of sins and for the Holy Spirit equaling salvation.
So much so that the Catholic Church perverted it and took it too far thinking they could baptize infants saving them.
Well they forgot that at baptism it is your faith that saves not the water.
Now days the definition of Baptismal Regeneration is for anyone who thinks you are regenerated at baptism which on the surface fits however that is not the actual definition.
And yes I believe you are regenerated at baptism.
The early church taught that we are regenerated at baptism. Even before the Catholic church started.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/18/2009 5:22:14 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 17
Joined: 3/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
God does not "choose" to wash away our sins at baptism. This is why people call those with this belief baptismal regenerationalists. Sure He does. And it's not the baptism that is regenerating one, it's God.
quote:
God cleanses us from all sin the moment we place our faith in him. That is what the New Testament teaches. And where, precisely, does the Bible say that our sins are washed away by our faith?
quote:
What denomination are you currently worshiping at?
I am currently worshiping at a Southern Baptist Church.
If you are at a Southern Baptist Church you really should know that baptism has not saving merit whatsoever.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/18/2009 5:23:28 PM
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Linkoln
Posts: 17
Joined: 3/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
The original definition of Baptismal Regeneration is that the power is in the water. Comes from Catholic teachings when they perpetuated the doctrine of Original Sin to promote infant baptism.
Baptism in the apostles time and in the centuries following was always for remission of sins and for the Holy Spirit equaling salvation.
So much so that the Catholic Church perverted it and took it too far thinking they could baptize infants saving them.
Well they forgot that at baptism it is your faith that saves not the water.
Now days the definition of Baptismal Regeneration is for anyone who thinks you are regenerated at baptism which on the surface fits however that is not the actual definition.
And yes I believe you are regenerated at baptism.
The early church taught that we are regenerated at baptism. Even before the Catholic church started.
Your problem is that you believe a person is regenerated at baptism. The Holy Spirit places a person in the body of Christ the moment a person places their faith in Christ. Baptism is not used by God to save us.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/18/2009 7:26:06 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
The original definition of Baptismal Regeneration is that the power is in the water. Comes from Catholic teachings when they perpetuated the doctrine of Original Sin to promote infant baptism.
Baptism in the apostles time and in the centuries following was always for remission of sins and for the Holy Spirit equaling salvation.
So much so that the Catholic Church perverted it and took it too far thinking they could baptize infants saving them.
Well they forgot that at baptism it is your faith that saves not the water.
Now days the definition of Baptismal Regeneration is for anyone who thinks you are regenerated at baptism which on the surface fits however that is not the actual definition.
And yes I believe you are regenerated at baptism.
The early church taught that we are regenerated at baptism. Even before the Catholic church started.
Your problem is that you believe a person is regenerated at baptism.
So I have been told! 
Well my friend I do believe that indeed and I wholeheartedly believe the scriptures teach that.
quote:
The Holy Spirit places a person in the body of Christ the moment a person places their faith in Christ. Baptism is not used by God to save us.
I disagree. I believe there are plenty of scriptures that teach otherwise.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/19/2009 8:04:23 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1585
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Linkoln
If you are at a Southern Baptist Church you really should know that baptism has not saving merit whatsoever.
Of course baptism (in and of itself) has no saving merit. However, that doesn't mean that God doesn't save us when we are baptized. It's not the baptism that has saving merit. It's what God does for us when we are baptized that has the saving merit.
According to Robert H. Stein, Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY, "In the New Testament, conversion involves five integrally related components or aspects, all of which took place at the same time, usually on the same day. These five components are repentance, faith, and confession by the individual, regeneration, or the giving of the Holy Spirit by God, and baptism by representatives of the Christian community." I agree substantially with that thesis.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/19/2009 9:56:07 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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A real life example: A 400 pound paraplegic man who is bed bound when he heard the Gospel and was born again. Should he resign himself to hell because of his physical condition?
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/19/2009 10:07:33 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 503
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
A real life example: A 400 pound paraplegic man who is bed bound when he heard the Gospel and was born again. Should he resign himself to hell because of his physical condition?
Where there is a will there is a way.
Listen I don't make baptism some line in the sand that needs to be crossed. God desires a transformed life that faithfully obeys Him.
In my experience no matter the condition people who want to get baptized do. God provides for them.
Anything is possible with God!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 11/19/2009 10:37:29 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10987
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
I realize it's been going on for a while now, but please take the discussion about baptism to THIS THREAD.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
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