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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/22/2009 4:47:21 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
They're not a claim for the exhaustive content of the gospel. (For example, there's no mention of sin.) They're essentially slogans. If you think they claim to be then you are mistaking their intent. They were formulated at a time when the RC Church added things to the gospel. For example, the term "Christ alone" was probably a reaction to the Catholic claim that salvation was granted only through the Church. "Grace alone" was a challenge to the idea that works assisted in salvation.
That may very well be true, but does that necessarily make them right and correct as slogans? Verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 are not a claim for the exhaustive content of the gospel either, yet many people use them as if they were. And that's what I fear these slogans are being used as too.
Historical context ought to make them correct. We live in a society that is religiously and biblically illiterate. I notice that people have trouble with biblical passages, often because they cannot place them in context. If they misunderstand the historical context, that does not make them wrong. It makes them misinterpreted. People often misinterpret the Bible and that does not make using the Bible wrong. If they misinterpret the meaning of those phrases historically, the fault lies with them and not with the words.
With regard to whether or not Eph. 2:8-9 is not a claim for exhaustive content of the gospel. Yes, I suppose. But it is not intended to be used merely as a proof text, devoid of context. People do that, of course. You cannot go around quoting the entire chapter of Ephesians 2, just to present the gospel. We have understandings regarding sin, the identity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, etc. But one thing it does do is to exclude certain things like works. In that sense its use as a "proof text" serves a useful purpose.
When I present the gospel to people, I try to balance the use of proof texts (They're often not familiar with them anyway) with more elaborate explanations. One one hand, I try not to be too wordy but on the other hand to provide sufficient explanation that they understand the gospel.
If you are trying to say that Eph. 2:8-9 is not exhaustive enough to eliminate baptism as a precondition, I would say that you are mistaken. I will stand behind that.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/22/2009 5:14:08 PM
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drmark
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quote:
If you are trying to say that Eph. 2:8-9 is not exhaustive enough to eliminate baptism as a precondition, I would say that you are mistaken. I will stand behind that. And I second that emotion!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/22/2009 9:03:06 PM
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Intrepidus
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Water baptism is not a precondition for salvation. That which water baptism symbolizes, however, is necessary. No one can be saved unless he/she is born from above and united by faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Water baptism is symbolic of these things. Since it is often the first act of obedience in the life of a Christian, some mistakenly think that water baptism causes salvation. But that goes against so much New Testament teaching that one has to be grossly ignorant of the scriptures to even entertain the notion.
Sadly, the heresy of baptismal regeneration gained a foothold in the so-called 'Restoration Movement' of the Nineteenth Century. That same movement spawned the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, and the Churches of Christ. And the one thing they all seem to have in common (other than each one thinking that it alone is the "one true church") is a strong conviction that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-Intrepidus
< Message edited by Intrepidus -- 10/22/2009 9:09:37 PM >
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 8:50:23 AM
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McFatty
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quote:
We are saved by grace through faith. People want to distort that in our day and add works to what the Bible clearly teaches.
No doubt. All works are a result of faith.
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"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 9:00:45 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Intrepidus
Water baptism is not a precondition for salvation. That which water baptism symbolizes, however, is necessary. No one can be saved unless he/she is born from above and united by faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Water baptism is symbolic of these things. Since it is often the first act of obedience in the life of a Christian, some mistakenly think that water baptism causes salvation. But that goes against so much New Testament teaching that one has to be grossly ignorant of the scriptures to even entertain the notion. Everything you mention here (being born from above and being united by faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection) occurs when we are baptized (John 3:5; Romans 6:3-6). You are correct, though, that water baptism does not cause salvation to occur. There is nothing in the water that makes salvation happen.
quote:
Sadly, the heresy of baptismal regeneration gained a foothold in the so-called 'Restoration Movement' of the Nineteenth Century. That same movement spawned the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, and the Churches of Christ. And the one thing they all seem to have in common (other than each one thinking that it alone is the "one true church") is a strong conviction that water baptism is necessary for salvation. I would argue that the heresy of baptismal regeneration has been around as long as the Catholic Church as been around. As a former member of the Restoration Movement I can state unequivocally that they do not believe in baptismal regeneration as a group. There may be individuals within the group that espouse that heresy, but most understand that baptism is simply the time at which salvation occurs and nothing else.
< Message edited by greatdivide46 -- 10/23/2009 9:07:02 AM >
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 9:12:15 AM
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McFatty
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I'd explain a disagreement, but there's probably a one stop baptism thread for that somewhere. I don't want to ruin this thread.
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"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 5:57:19 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
If you are trying to say that Eph. 2:8-9 is not exhaustive enough to eliminate baptism as a precondition, I would say that you are mistaken. I will stand behind that.
I was agreeing with your post until I got to this paragraph. If drmark seconds this, I vote nay. 
If Ephesians 2:8-9 eliminates baptism simply because it doesn't mention it, then repentance and confession are also unnecessary for salvation. However, we know that's not true because of other verses; like Romans 10:10, for instance. Or if one thinks baptism is eliminated by Ephesians 2:8-9 because it is considered a work, I would say one has a faulty understanding of works.
Of course, I understand that you will stand behind your statement. I would expect nothing else.
I guess it depends on either one's definition(s) of the above or how one interprets passages like Romans 10:10. In the sense that you mean it, no, I don't think confession is a condition for salvation. With regard to repentance; again, it depends on what one believes repentance to be. Often, people take repentance to mean "giving up sin." In a sense it does mean that but unfortunately it can mean that but it does not necessarily have to mean that. One basic meaning is either "change of mind/attitude" or turning one's back on a particular behavior, attitude, or belief. If an unbeliever turns to Christ in faith, has he not repented? Is this not a complete change of mind, attitude and belief?
Back to Romans 10:10. The last part of the verse simply says: "...with the mouth confession is made to salvation." It does not say, "confession must be made to be saved." It is talking about, I believe, the confession that proceeds from faith, not making confession a condition for salvation.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 7:15:49 PM
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Intrepidus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Everything you mention here (being born from above and being united by faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection) occurs when we are baptized (John 3:5; Romans 6:3-6). You are correct, though, that water baptism does not cause salvation to occur. There is nothing in the water that makes salvation happen.
Greatdivide46
I strongly disagree. Water baptism is a symbol that points to a higher reality, namely the experience of placing one's faith in Jesus Christ and being regenerated by the Spirit (Eze 36:25-27; John 3:3-5; Tit 3:4-7). Just as the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper do not convey the benefits of Christ's death to us, neither does water baptism convey the benefits of Christ's resurrection to us. Both are object lessons that communicate the gospel visually. And the gospel is that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone--completely apart from works, which would include water baptism (Eph 2:8-9).
Oddly enough, it was the teaching ministry of John MacArthur that opened my eyes to this truth. After years of being steeped in the "solus immersus" theology (no pun intended), I providentially heard a taped sermon by MacArthur that totally shattered my misconception of baptism. Having spent the next month trying desperately to refute his "error," I finally submitted to the truth of scripture.
quote:
I would argue that the heresy of baptismal regeneration has been around as long as the Catholic Church as been around. As a former member of the Restoration Movement I can state unequivocally that they do not believe in baptismal regeneration as a group. There may be individuals within the group that espouse that heresy, but most understand that baptism is simply the time at which salvation occurs and nothing else.
Please understand, I did not say that the heresy originated with the Restoration. Rather, that it gained a significant foothold, specifically in post-Reformation Christendom and in the various pseudo-Christian cults who drank deeply from that font. For the churches of the Restoration Movement, baptism is for believers only, by immersion only, into their churches only (often by one of their pastors or bishops only!).
Having come from a church of the Restoration Movement, I can state unequivocally that they do believe in baptismal regeneration. I'm talking specifically about the Churches of Christ. Those churches, of which I have attended many, all teach that both the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins come through water baptism (based mostly on a misunderstanding of Acts 2:38). Thus, to deny that the churches of the Restoration teach baptismal regeneration, one would have to define 'regeneration' apart from the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins. That would be an interesting sermon.
In Christ,
-Intrepidus
< Message edited by Intrepidus -- 10/23/2009 7:27:23 PM >
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 7:55:54 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Intrepidus
Having come from a church of the Restoration Movement, I can state unequivocally that they do believe in baptismal regeneration. I'm talking specifically about the Churches of Christ. Those churches, of which I have attended many, all teach that both the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins come through water baptism (based mostly on a misunderstanding of Acts 2:38). Thus, to deny that the churches of the Restoration teach baptismal regeneration, one would have to define 'regeneration' apart from the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins. That would be an interesting sermon.
In Christ,
-Intrepidus
Please understand that GD does not define "baptismal regeneration" as you and I define it. He thinks that the doctrine means that one is saved solely by means of baptism and no other act, attitude, behavior or change of thought.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 9:29:49 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Intrepidus
Having come from a church of the Restoration Movement, I can state unequivocally that they do believe in baptismal regeneration. I'm talking specifically about the Churches of Christ. Those churches, of which I have attended many, all teach that both the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins come through water baptism (based mostly on a misunderstanding of Acts 2:38). Thus, to deny that the churches of the Restoration teach baptismal regeneration, one would have to define 'regeneration' apart from the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins. That would be an interesting sermon.
In Christ,
-Intrepidus
Please understand that GD does not define "baptismal regeneration" as you and I define it. He thinks that the doctrine means that one is saved solely by means of baptism and no other act, attitude, behavior or change of thought.
I can speak for myself, thank you very much!
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 9:33:42 PM
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greatdivide46
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Well, all I can say is that as a preaching minister in a Restoration Church for ten years I never ran across anyone who believed in baptismal regeneration. Not saying that there aren't people in the Restoration Movement who believe that. I just never found one.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 9:35:00 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I can speak for myself, thank you very much!
Look. There was nothing personal in my words. I spoke factually because of many discussions with you in the past. The fact is that you have denied you believe in baptismal regeneration even though the appropriate definition of the term means that you do. You can be upset about it or not. There was nothing personal intended in my words. I make no apology for it. I do approve of Dennis Prager's motto: "Clarity before agreement."
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 9:39:01 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Intrepidus
For the churches of the Restoration Movement, baptism is for believers only, by immersion only, into their churches only (often by one of their pastors or bishops only!).
You must be talking about a different Restoration Movement than the one I was a preacher in for 10 years. Immersion only, yes. Into their churches only? Not in the Restoration Movement I'm familiar with. And when I was part of the Restoration Movement I saw more people baptized by laymen (fathers baptizing their own children, mostly) than I saw baptized by pastors. And I've never met anyone in the Restoration Movement who actually called themselves a bishop.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 9:49:44 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Look. There was nothing personal in my words. I spoke factually because of many discussions with you in the past. The fact is that you have denied you believe in baptismal regeneration even though the appropriate definition of the term means that you do. You can be upset about it or not. There was nothing personal intended in my words. I make no apology for it. I do approve of Dennis Prager's motto: "Clarity before agreement."
All I can do is quote another erudite and astute poster on these threads: "You have a problem with what you think my theology is or with what you hope my theology is. You would like to interpret my theology in such a way as to make certain parts internally inconsistent."
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 10:10:32 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Look. There was nothing personal in my words. I spoke factually because of many discussions with you in the past. The fact is that you have denied you believe in baptismal regeneration even though the appropriate definition of the term means that you do. You can be upset about it or not. There was nothing personal intended in my words. I make no apology for it. I do approve of Dennis Prager's motto: "Clarity before agreement."
All I can do is quote another erudite and astute poster on these threads: "You have a problem with what you think my theology is or with what you hope my theology is. You would like to interpret my theology in such a way as to make certain parts internally inconsistent."
1) Do you or do you not deny that you believe in baptismal regeneration? (We both agree that you deny it.)
2) The most common understanding of the term is that people who believe that baptismal is necessary for salvation are regarded as believing in baptismal regeneration. Is that true or not true? (Whether you believe it correctly identifies what you believe or not is not the point...)
I am not aware of anything here that I have said is factually incorrect. Opinion or not, the facts are true.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/23/2009 10:34:33 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Look. There was nothing personal in my words. I spoke factually because of many discussions with you in the past. The fact is that you have denied you believe in baptismal regeneration even though the appropriate definition of the term means that you do. You can be upset about it or not. There was nothing personal intended in my words. I make no apology for it. I do approve of Dennis Prager's motto: "Clarity before agreement."
All I can do is quote another erudite and astute poster on these threads: "You have a problem with what you think my theology is or with what you hope my theology is. You would like to interpret my theology in such a way as to make certain parts internally inconsistent."
1) Do you or do you not deny that you believe in baptismal regeneration? (We both agree that you deny it.)
2) The most common understanding of the term is that people who believe that baptismal is necessary for salvation are regarded as believing in baptismal regeneration. Is that true or not true? (Whether you believe it correctly identifies what you believe or not is not the point...)
I am not aware of anything here that I have said is factually incorrect. Opinion or not, the facts are true.
That is exactly the problem.......because your definition is actually wrong. The original definition of Baptismal Regeneration is that the power is in the water. Of course definitions change and it is easy to call someone who believes that you are regenerated at baptism a baptismal regenerationist when you hold to the new definition.
I believe you are regenerated at baptism as Jesus taught and the apostles taught as well as the apostles disciples taught.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 8:17:09 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
1) Do you or do you not deny that you believe in baptismal regeneration? (We both agree that you deny it.) That's correct!!
quote:
2) The most common understanding of the term is that people who believe that baptismal is necessary for salvation are regarded as believing in baptismal regeneration. Is that true or not true? (Whether you believe it correctly identifies what you believe or not is not the point...) No, I don't think so. I think the most common understanding of the term is believing that baptism is what actually regenerates a person. I do not believe that. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith in/at baptism for good works. That may be called baptismal regeneration by some, but I will continue to deny that I believe that baptism is what regenerates a person.
quote:
I am not aware of anything here that I have said is factually incorrect. Opinion or not, the facts are true. Absolutely, facts are indeed true. I'm not entirely certain that facts and opinion are synonymous, but opinions can be factual I suppose.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 9:40:51 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
quote:
I am not aware of anything here that I have said is factually incorrect. Opinion or not, the facts are true.
Absolutely, facts are indeed true. I'm not entirely certain that facts and opinion are synonymous, but opinions can be factual I suppose.
What I meant was that it is a fact that a whole host of people understand terms to mean certain things. The majority opinion may be wrong, but the majority opinion is still the majority opinion.
Anyway, I went to Wikipedia to read up on the matter. It is the only objective article that I could find on the subject.
Baptismal regeneration, the literal meaning of which is "being generated again" (regeneration) "through baptism" (baptismal), is the doctrine within some Christian denominations that holds that salvation is dependent upon, or more precisely, mediated through, the act of baptism; in other words, baptismal regenerationists believe that it is ordinarily necessary for one to be baptized in order to be saved. Not as a denial that faith alone saves, but as a confession of a divinely-ordained means by which the Gospel comes and creates faith. Critics of the concept frequently allege that the concept of baptismal regeneration tends to emphasize form (including the role of water) instead of meaning; supporters of the concept may identify meaning with form and cite biblical passages such as Luke 6:46....
Churches associated with the Restoration movement, which includes the Churches of Christ, are sometimes alleged to support the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, a contention which the Restoration Movement churches themselves deny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptismal_regeneration
If you believe that the doctrine of baptismal regeneration holds that baptism alone saves without regard to any other cause (faith, works, etc), it isn't what this article says. And it isn't any view that I have put forth nor accused you of.
According to the article, the doctrine holds that baptism leads to faith and therefore the gospel or that baptism is a means of creating faith, as a confession of the gospel. To be really honest, it's hard to see a much of difference between the views you have espoused and what is cited in the article. One difference is that the article states that baptism creates faith. I can see how that applies to infants. In Roman Catholicism, the infant is baptized and then later believes. Some Catholics believe that infants who are baptized go to heaven (and I suppose are saved but I don't think they call it salvation) but unbaptized infants do not.
In the Restoration Movement, baptism is the final step in a series of four necessary steps. If you want to split hairs on that basis of both order and what is necessary to precede salvation, I suppose I can see your point. Bear with me for a few days to mull this over. If you can explain a critical difference that makes sense to me then I will apologize.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 9:42:52 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
That is exactly the problem.......because your definition is actually wrong. The original definition of Baptismal Regeneration is that the power is in the water. Of course definitions change and it is easy to call someone who believes that you are regenerated at baptism a baptismal regenerationist when you hold to the new definition.
What is your source for "the original definition." I would like an authoritative source, not simply an article from your church.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 10:52:21 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
If you are trying to say that Eph. 2:8-9 is not exhaustive enough to eliminate baptism as a precondition, I would say that you are mistaken. I will stand behind that.
I really wish that when folks try to use Eph 2:8,9 as the do all, end all passage on salvation;
(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
That they would include the very next verse that does speak to the part good works plays in the salvation of a Bliever;
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
It seems to me that if there is no good works then there was no salvation.
As far as being Baptized, since it was commanded by the Lord Jesus then yes one should be Baptized AFTER they acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
And Baptizm is a sign of obedience and love towards Jesus Christ;
(Joh 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
So when Jesus said;
(Mat 28:19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Or when Peter said;
(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
They meant for us to be Baptized when we believed.
We are saved by Grace through faith; but we are saved unto good works; ergo no good works no salvation as James so plainly put;
(Jas 2:17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
(Jas 2:18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(Jas 2:19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(Jas 2:20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
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http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/24/2009 10:54:56 AM
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GrahamCracker
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GD,
Let me explain my problem. Please understand that I have no intention of being personally insulting. When referring to the doctrine which holds baptism is necessary for salvation, I have to have a label. I cannot call them all Church because some non-CoC hold to that belief as well. Besides, not everyone holds to the doctrine in precisely the same way or even with the same intensity or dogmatism.
Rightly or wrongly, I have always used the term with regard to the doctrine that baptism is a requirement for salvation, no matter what other preconditions they believe are necessary. I have used it as a general catch-all term for the doctrine. Some people, like you, may protest that it has a technical definition that doesn't delineate your beliefs accurately. That may be, but I cannot find any source that clearly defines it the way you do.
I suppose I can use the term "baptismal salvationist"? I am not aware that it has a technical meaning of itself. Maybe "baptism salvationist."
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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