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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/21/2009 12:54:36 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Humility is not one of my strong points, Loved. I work on it; sometimes I am consumed with personal degradation; and sometimes I take what someone else says and fall into a pit of self-criticism and self-pity, but none of these equal humility.
I had a little incident tonight at a class I attended that had I been in another mood, I could have allowed it to humiliate me unnecessarily, but I know that the woman who spoke the words meant no harm. I think that had I allowed it to effect me negatively, it would have been out of pride arising.
In certain circumstances, I am shy. My shyness is based upon pride: fear of being humiliated, fear of being "disarmed" by another, fear of stumbling.
For me, my little bouts with self-degradation, self-criticism, self-doubt, and shyness come strictly from my lack of humility, and I have specifically known these responses to cause me to take chunks out of the unity in which we are all to participate -- as in the unity is there, but because I am not actively participating, I create a hole in it.
If I were truly one with my worship-community, I would be consistently doing and being those things I am called to do and be without faltering. I just don't always fulfill that.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/21/2009 3:03:29 AM
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agapist
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I misunderstood humility for the greater part of my life. In effect, self-hate served. I did not let my light shine because I believed that was pride.
I have not behaved well on this forum all the time. Neither love nor unity had remained uppermost in my attitude when I felt I was not being properly understood or when I felt I was being unjustly misjudged. I got defensive. I know better.
Why did I succumb? I am dealing with that now. From what spirit has revealed thus far, I had become complacent. The self needs to die daily; I lost my focus on that point.
I enjoy a great deal of respect, even admiration, in my circle of friends and community. This may sound like a boast but it really just describes what I am used to in my life. I stopped offering myself as a living sacrifice. I guess I thought I had arrived.
My reaction to the comments received in this forum has been a good lesson: obviously I have not arrived. And that has been a wedge for divisiveness.
I apologized for my behavior and asked for forgiveness in another thread: no one responded to that; I feel that reflects more on me than on them. I created a polarity.
This has made it hard on me to return to those threads I have commented on. I have a sense of dread, which has more to do with how I have acted than in confronting those that disagree.
Unity really comes when I have true humilty.
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/21/2009 4:19:56 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapist
I apologized for my behavior and asked for forgiveness in another thread: no one responded to that; I feel that reflects more on me than on them. I created a polarity.
This has made it hard on me to return to those threads I have commented on. I have a sense of dread, which has more to do with how I have acted than in confronting those that disagree.
Unity really comes when I have true humilty.
Do not be afraid. As oxymoronic as it may sound disagreement, even contentious disagreement need not create disunity. My daughter used to become frightened when my Roosevelt democrat grandmother and I used to discuss politics. If you haven't noticed, I am a free market conservative. We had to reassure her that neither one of us was angry at the other, but were simply taking part in a lively discussion. We both understood that we seriously cared for one another and our zeal in discussion was proof of that. After these discussions we both reflected on our positions and returned to later debates better able to understand the other's position. The details of these discussions never dimmed the overarching commitment we had for one another. However, had we avoided the discussion of these details we would have had a much shallower relationship.
I look forward to future discussions with you and the depth of understanding that will no doubt result.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/21/2009 12:41:44 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
For me, my little bouts with self-degradation, self-criticism, self-doubt, and shyness come strictly from my lack of humility, and I have specifically known these responses to cause me to take chunks out of the unity in which we are all to participate -- as in the unity is there, but because I am not actively participating, I create a hole in it.
Oh, I love this, C_M! Creating a hole by not being who God made me to be. . .
There is so much truth in this statement. But the other side of that truth is that I am to love you, see your lack of 'wholeness' in that moment, and fill in the part where you are lacking and believe and pray for you. It is His work and as a member of His body I believe He is accomplishing that in you and for you! Yes, this is the life of humility that results in unity. That kind of oneness. . . much easier spoken on the forum than lived out. That's why love must be first.
quote:
agapist
Unity really comes when I have true humilty.
True, agapist, but we provide the 'other' side by our response. I hope you know I love you, brother! But perhaps not so I should have responded to your apology. Your humility is met by me and others. And depending upon our response (or lack of response in this case), the 'hole' that C_M spoke of results. It takes both parties for unity to exist.
Anyway, what a lovely discussion where real 'stuff' is worked out in a thread on dwelling together in unity. Thanks! 
quote:
Bluethread
As oxymoronic as it may sound disagreement, even contentious disagreement need not create disunity.
This is true as well, Bluethread. Some are disturbed by any disagreement. And this is why it is such a challenge to have unity in the body. Unity in disagreement seems so disagreeable to some! And sometimes it is very hard to walk out (live out). But it is the challenge He calls us to. And the result, when we do live it out together, is a tighter oneness---true unity.
I've lived this out with a girlfriend. Sin broke our relationship apart. We went from being sisters to being estranged. She rejected me and went her own way. I cried for a year, missing our friendship. But in that year, I drew closer and closer to Jesus. C. S. Lewis said 'God gives His gifts to vessels who are empty enough to receive them.' I was empty and the Lord filled me to overflowing. It was absolutely wonderful---a blessing of eternal significance. Then about eighteen months later, she called. The Lord brought conviction to her over what she had done to me. She called to confess her sin. We are closer because of what took place. No, we do not have the same kind of friendship we did before. It is stronger. There is a love and unity between us that has been borne out of adversity and the winds cannot break apart. And our testimony is powerful. . . only God could do such a thing as this.
Anyway, that's one story of the tighter oneness the Lord desires for His body. Perhaps that will be the result for some of us on CW as well! My prayer.
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/21/2009 4:19:29 PM
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agapist
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I used to call the Prayer of St. Francis the Co-dependency Creed.
The difference I found between the two is want and need. With Francis, what he spoke of he wanted to do out of love. With me, at that time, it was what I beieved I needed to do to be a good Christian and a good friend. What I began to see was this need to be good was more fear-based than faith-based or, if you will, love-based. I was afraid of not being accepted. I was afraid of not belonging. I was afraid of being rejected. I thought I had to prove my worth because, I came to realize, I still thought of myself in the light of how I was raised: that I was "dirty, bad, and unworthy." Fundamentally unlovable, by God or others, as myself.
During this time, I did what appeared like great works for the Church and for the needy. I was the shoulder to cry on. I was the one you could call on day or night for help. I was the one hiding my light under a bushel for fear it was not bright and shiny enough. God could not work on me because I was in charge of being good. He could not use me as needed because I had these self-imposed and rigid standards to live by. I had not allowed truth to set me free.
The result was my relational with others was spiritualized and lacking in depth. I did not draw close to anyone and no one could get near me.
The I stumble on a teacher who saw my dilemma and I began the process of healing, a pro-active practice of dying to self.
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/21/2009 8:12:55 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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With regard to "dwelling together in unity," I have really struggled with the actions of some here on CW over the last few months, especially. It appeared that some were purposely pursuing some to the point of harassment, myself and Agapist included. The harassment seemed to cool off on me, but immediately, it seemed to pick up on Agapist.
I have very little time to be on CW, so I don't go about reading all the posts of particular ones, including the fact that I have read few of Agapist's posts. Therefore, I don't know everything that Agapist has written, but I know what I have written, and I don't believe I deserved or asked for the harassment. I have wanted so often to just say something in defence of Agapist, but I sat back and thought, "I don't know the whole story: I haven't read everything here!"
Agapist and I don't agree on some things I find to be important, but I have not yet read anything that Agapist has written that should have been treated with what I would classify as extreme harshness, unwarranted criticism, and venom. So here and now, I wish to apologize, for whatever it means, to Agapist that I said nothing. I still have one thread that this happened on subscribed, hoping to get back on it when I have time, to see why Agapist was so harassed.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/22/2009 10:45:56 AM
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Liveloved
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How does man respond to something or someone he does not understand?
How does man respond when feeling threatened?
All we have to do is look at the life of Jesus and we find the answer.
Man kills what he does not understand.
This is at the root of judgment. It is the preservation of the self. It is the opposite of and refusal to surrender. It is the unwillingness to die. So man strikes and seeks to destroy what he sees as the threat to his wellbeing, his self preservation.
Judgment is the opposite of seeking to understand. The example Bluethread gave regarding the lively discussions with his grandmother are an excellent example of seeking to understand. Judgment prevents this kind of discussion. Judgment says you're not worthy of being heard. Judgment says you're wrong without considering/hearing what you are saying. Judgment refuses to look at self and see its own error.
Judgment destroys unity.
That's why Jesus said we were not to judge (unrighteously) but use righteous judgment. Righteous judgment hears the heart of the speaker. Unrighteous judgment judges words or the perceived tone. Unrighteous judgment comes from within the judge rather than what is coming from the one being judged.
What I have seen is that unrighteous judgment judges by what is in the heart of the judge---thinks others are acting out of the motives, feelings that the judge has. IOW they think you are doing or saying such and such because that is what they do, how they feel, how they are responding, etc.
Unrighteous judgment is really a self judgment. But without eyes to see or ears to hear, the judgment goes unnoticed.
agapist is quite right in using the quote by Calvin (and I don't mean Klein either  ). Love is difficult. . . Reminds me of something Malcolm Muggeridge said about Christianity as well.
But we press on! And we are commanded to dwell together in unity. Lord, help us!
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/22/2009 12:10:26 PM
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cposey
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Is it feesable to think that the body of Christ can act together in unity?
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/22/2009 12:21:31 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Is it feesable to think that the body of Christ can act together in unity? Is it feasible to think that Ephesians 4:1-6 is in God's Word to be acted upon?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/22/2009 4:15:29 PM
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Liveloved
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Is dwelling together in unity feasible? capable of being done?
Well, I say yes. God commands it. He would not command something we could not walk out.
The problem is men try to walk it out themselves rather than by the Spirit. And then we're back to that word 'love'.
Galatians 5 tells us the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another.
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. (verses 14-16)
I would say the problem lies in not walking by the Spirit.
Edited to correct a misspelling 
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 10/22/2009 5:58:32 PM >
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/22/2009 4:55:53 PM
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cposey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Is it feesable to think that the body of Christ can act together in unity? Is it feasible to think that Ephesians 4:1-6 is in God's Word to be acted upon?
I would say absolutely yes. So what keeps us from that?
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/22/2009 5:09:04 PM
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drmark
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quote:
So what keeps us from that? It's called self-centered carnality in my doctrinal tradition! What do you call it, cposey?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/22/2009 5:18:37 PM
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Elena1030
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I wonder if the trouble arises when we think that unity means uniformity and then scold one another for having any sort of difference and therefore we bicker and mar the unity.
I believe we can live in unity in the Kingdom... it's just not going to be perfect till we are fully perfected.
Or am I on the wrong track with this?
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Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 12:08:24 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I believe that true proof of unity lies within our differences as we continue to just do halakah. We're supposed to all be on the same narrow way, some walking, some on tandem bikes, some on unicycles, some pushing strollers, some pulling waggons, but all in the same direction with the same goal.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 10:43:10 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
C_M
true proof of unity lies within our differences
Interesting thought. Unity is brought about by the Spirit and, afterall, God did create us as unique individuals. And He chooses to manifest His glory through our unique and individual differences. So when we walk as one yet different, a truer picture of our awesome God is being manifested to the world! Oh, how beautiful. (And I love the way you expressed it, C_M, with all the modes of transportation. A very apt picture. )
Perhaps accept one another just as Christ also us (to the glory of God) Romans 15:7 is a verse we need to lift up.
Why is it so difficult to accept others?
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 12:15:14 PM
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cposey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So what keeps us from that? It's called self-centered carnality in my doctrinal tradition! What do you call it, cposey?
Well i don't ascribe to a doctrinal tradition. And I haven't been taught thorougly enough to descibe the hinderances. I could take a few guesses, but nothing i would say is HIS truth. I know that we are called to be unified in the Spirit. Might be some walking in the flesh and some walking in the Spirit causing the divide. As far as a specific solution or answer i don't know in depth.
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 12:17:46 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Well i don't ascribe to a doctrinal tradition. That can be a real problem when it comes to "dwelling together in unity"!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 12:34:21 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Well i don't ascribe to a doctrinal tradition. That can be a real problem when it comes to "dwelling together in unity"!
Oh, I would have to disagree, drmark. I have found that those who ascribe to a doctrinal tradition are often the least able to dwell in unity. It is hard to 'be right' and accepting of those who 'just don't get it'.  And I am speaking for myself here.
I don't consider myself to ascribe to a doctrinal tradition. I am His and He is mine. I don't think that's a tradition. . . He calls it life.
But when I think I see something clearly and someone else I fellowship with does not (see it the way I see it). the struggle is on. And it's a struggle to love. It's a struggle to pray. It's a struggle to trust God with this and not think it's 'mine' to straighten out. KWIM?
For example, I have a friend who has been on a treadmill of God seeking for a lifetime and has not come into rest. She emphasizes "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Which is a truth. But as I called to her attention on Wed night at Bible study, she needs to read the verse in context and especially note what comes after. . . for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. She emphasizes HER work and I see the emphasis on GOD. I know my emphasis is right. But I can't make her see that. I can speak it. I can take her to the scripture. But I can't make her believe it for herself. I can pray. . . and I need to more than I do.
But those are the kinds of things that can bring division if we are not continually falling at His feet in repentance and returning to love. That has been my experience.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 12:40:13 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Oh, I would have to disagree, drmark. Of course you would, LL! Most all of the "Lone Ranger Christians" posting here think their personal hermeneutics and spiritual convictions are all that's needed for sound doctrine. That's exactly why there is so little unity of faith throughout these Forums, in my opinion, instead of the development of reasonable theology subject to the accountability of other mature Christians.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 1:43:05 PM
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Elena1030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Oh, I would have to disagree, drmark. Of course you would, LL! Most all of the "Lone Ranger Christians" posting here think their personal hermeneutics and spiritual convictions are all that's needed for sound doctrine. That's exactly why there is so little unity of faith throughout these Forums, in my opinion, instead of the development of reasonable theology subject to the accountability of other mature Christians.
Hope I'm not one of those "lone ranger Christians," though I do have a tendency to "hermitize" myself and stay home a lot. (That's an entire OTHER thread, no?!)
But I do think that my doctrinal stances don't come from merely what I have read on the Bible on my own --- but also from sound Bible teaching and preaching, from Bible study, and from what I understand from what my denomination teaches (on the whole). Of course, that doesn't mean that I just take whatever people tell me and believe that blindly. I think I do as the Beroeans did and hold up against the whole counsel of the Word whatever is presented to me. I do recognize that experience with God in living the reality of the truths that the Word speaks is another aspect --- b/c the Word is living, not mere words on the page.
I'm not sure I'm doing my own thoughts justice with the typing. I'm trusting that y'all can sense what I'm talking about.
Thoughts?
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Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 5:31:34 PM
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drmark
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quote:
But I do think that my doctrinal stances don't come from merely what I have read on the Bible on my own --- but also from sound Bible teaching and preaching, from Bible study, and from what I understand from what my denomination teaches (on the whole). Of course, that doesn't mean that I just take whatever people tell me and believe that blindly. I think I do as the Beroeans did and hold up against the whole counsel of the Word whatever is presented to me. I do recognize that experience with God in living the reality of the truths that the Word speaks is another aspect --- b/c the Word is living, not mere words on the page. Exactly what I was talking about, Elena! Thanks for sharing.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 9:19:50 PM
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Bluethread
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One way of looking at this is the written or spoken word is not "The Word", but only a partial representation of "The Word". If one were to look up the entire history of a family including every verifiable record and the rules that they live by, interviewing every living member, one still would not know what it was like to be part of that family and the true nature of of the patriarch of that family. What is missing is the "down time". The time spent with the patriarch and other members of the family doing nothing in particular. That might be what is meant by dwelling together in unity. One must actually be part of the family in order to understand the history of the family and the wisdom of the patriarch. There are family squabbles and some may even question how that crazy uncle became part of the family, but when all is said and done there is that "down time" when every one sits around with nothing to say and its ok. This does not minimize the family history, records, rules and interviews. In fact, it adds a special value to those things that can not be understood by those outside the family. In our modern society with all of it's distractions there appears to be much less "down time".
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 10/23/2009 9:27:19 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/23/2009 11:34:32 PM
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Digrieze
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
So, how do you discern when to discount a teacher or a friend and not dwell in unity with them? Be as specific as you can be but I'd prefer not using individual names. What qualities or aspects of teaching lead to choosing disunity?
Honestly, I find it's not myself choosing a state of disunity. The choice I make is to stick with the Bible text as the standard and rule of the christian faith. That is enough to provoke disunity.
Sadly, I find those with "new" revelations are also somewhat exclusivist. The Word Of Faith, New Apostolic Renewal, and Manifest Sons OF God groups (among others) seem to think that if you are not one of them, you are the enemy (and therefore you are to be denounced and, if possible, punished for not following Gods' "new" revelations and ignoring His "old" revelations when they prove the "new" to be the wishful thinking of man).
Personally, I have a very "liberal" theology that has room for people with widely varied beliefs. The core I would defend at is best expressed in creed written at the third Nicean council, as modified at Chalcedon.
That being said I also feel it necessary to stand for my brothers and sisters in christ when false teachers and false prophets enter like wolves in the shephards home to steal and devour the innocent. I have no problems opposing those who abuse the name of Christ to take advantage of people either finacially or physically, to control them as the ungodly would, or abuse them physically, mentally (or in other ways). I believe trying to protect my brothers and sisters in Christ this way IS a necessary part of loving them.
If this is considered spreading "disunity", so be it.
_____________________________
My hope, my wish, my prayer is that you find the life that Jesus created you to live and has hidden within Himself so in living that life you may have a uniquely intimate communion with Him. (Col.3:1-4)
Yours in the love of Jesus
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RE: Dwelling together in unity - 10/27/2009 6:33:34 AM
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cposey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Well i don't ascribe to a doctrinal tradition. That can be a real problem when it comes to "dwelling together in unity"!
I would definetly disagree with you on that one. I personally don't have a problem with unity. The reason i don't follow a doctrine is because they are man made. I don't care what apologetics anyone has for their doctrine, they are man made theologies. From my walk with Christ, I am open to anyone's teachings. But keep in mind that with any teaching I will not accept it as true until i seek God's face on the truth. HE will teach me. HIS Holy Spirit will guide me. I attend a southern baptist church. However, it plays no role in the doctrine that i follow. In Galations 5:19-26 it describes the fruits of the flesh compared to the fruits of the spirit. In verse 20 it clearly states "the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group". That is a fruit of the flesh. We can only be unified by the Holy Spirit. I can say this confidently and assuredly. I am a child of God. I will only follow Jesus. I will only believe in HIM. Jesus is our Savior.
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