RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Opening Post).
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[Poll]
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A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Opening Post).
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| Because I'm a good person. |
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| Because I've been baptized. |
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| Because of my works and faith. |
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| Because I've repented of my sins and accepted Christ as Lord. |
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| Because everyone goes to Heaven. |
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| Because of the Sacraments. |
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| Because of my works. |
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| Other (please specify). |
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Total Votes : 54
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(last vote on : 11/13/2009 11:09:25 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 6:34:26 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
Would you be so kind as to correct what you believe is a faulty definition then?
Perfect sinlessness is "living a one hundred percent sinless life". This will only occur when we are living in glorified bodies in heaven. Sinless perfection is living in and through the Love of Christ with our sinful nature cleansed by grace and our hearts entirely set on willful obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit. This can and does occur in the life of every sanctified Believer who completely consecrates their entire being to God and abides fully in Him every day.
< Message edited by drmark -- 10/22/2009 6:43:09 PM >
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 6:51:53 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
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OK... I'm still confused. You say we won't attain "perfect sinlessness" until we are in heaven, but we can attan "sinless perfection" now. Can you understand how that might confuse me?
I'm not saying I live in a sin nature now. I'm simply being honest with myself and everyone by saying that yes, I sometimes fall short of the perfection that God wishes. Are you saying that never happens in your life? I'm glad that He sees me through the perfect lens of His Son, though, who took my sins upon Himself.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 7:05:24 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1741
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
YORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
You have the choice to accept Christ. You can either choose to believe, giving your life to the Lord, or you can choose not to. The next time you sit in the chair at your computer, ask yourself if you really chose or not. For the sake of argument, let's assume you are a conservative, politically speaking. Are you able to simply choose that liberalism is the best system by which to run this country? Wouldn't you have to first be convinced of it validity - its superiority over conservatism?
And, if you are convinced liberalism is best for the country, wouldn't it be safe to say that you are already a believer in liberalism?
I don't know about you, but I know I am completely unable to choose something other than that of which I am convinced.
But the question is why are you convinced? Personally, I am conviced to be politically conservative and fundamental because I choose to believe the evidence and opinions that support said view. I could just as easily choose to accept all the nonsensical conspiracy theories about George Bush and 911, but after reviewing the evidence, I am convinced to hold the opinions that I because I choose to believe the evidence that supports it.
Spiritually speaking, I have the choice to believe in the historical evidence of Christ and His death, and I can choose to believe the historical records written by the doctor and historian Luke in his Gospel and in Acts, or I can choose to deny said evidence.
One has the choice the believe that the chair will hold them up. There is plenty of evidence that supports this belief, but regardless, YOU MAKE THE CHOICE to believe and sit in the chair. If not, kelman, please enlighten all of us by telling me who or what convinces you before you sit down? If it's not your choice, then who's or what's choice is it?
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 7:22:56 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1741
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quote:
I'm not sure why you've decided to go with this chair analogy, since I didn't bring up any chairs. But still, you are confusing two things--belief and action. Guess what? Even if I don't believe that a chair will support me, I can still choose to sit in it. Maybe I want it to break because I'm the class clown and I think it'd be a good laugh.
EXTREMELY good point there, abraxas! Belief does not necessarily demand an action. You can also believe that the chair will hold you up and STILL not sit down in it! I'm so glad you brought this up, my friend.
There was an acquaintance of mine (he's dead now) who believed with all his heart that Jesus was real, that He was the Son of God, that He was the Savior of mankind, that man needed Him to receive salvation, and that if he did not receive Christ he would die an unbeliever and suffer eternal punishment in Hell. He believed all of the above much stronger than some Christians do! Yet he refused to accept Christ. He believed, but did not accept the gift nor repent of his sins. As he spoke, one could literally see hatred dripping from his mouth. He hated God more than words can describe, and although He believed the Gospel message without the presence of a single doubt, he would rather suffer in Hell than submit to God. he chose his ego and bitterness instead. He's dead now, and as far as I know he's received exactly what he wanted.
So yes, belief does not always result in an action, or it can even result in an action misapplied. And you made a great point, abraxas, that will turn around and bite you in just a second. I thought of the following last night before I dozed off, and I planned on explaining it to you...and you've helped me out! Thanks!
Let's say you are right about this whole "Belief is not a choice" discussion. As you pointed out, and I explained with a personal experience, your belief does not demand an action. Therefore, even if I'm wrong and belief is not a choice we make, you STILL have the choice to acquiesce and act upon said belief. Sin belief does not demand an action (which I think we both agree with), then it really doesn't matter who's right concerning "belief is/isn't a choice"....you STILL have the choice to sit down in the chair (accepting Christ) or remain standing (reject the offer).
So for sake of further discussion, I'll just assume you're right, because honestly that's not the important past. So belief is not a choice. Fine...but your accepting Christ (or sitting in the chair) is still your choice.
quote:
Your arguement here is dangerously close to solipsism, and anyone who didn't grow bored teasing their mind with solipsism by the time they were twelve, well, they're a late bloomer. Maybe I'm really just a brain in a vat? Maybe if I stop believing in the chair it will fade away? People continue to get out of bed, put on clothes, and sit in chairs (as well as do other things hopefully) NOT because they've disproven the solipsistic questions, but because it's ridiculously impractical to keep struggling with those notions, especially in a world where one's experience has mounted a long line of consistency in this alleged reality.
Well you have fun in your world of relativism. Personally, I'll remain grounded in the absolutes of God's Word instead of jumping in that endless pit of despair called post-modernism.
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 7:26:29 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1741
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I'll just throw one example out there. In post 85 I pointed out how your own comments betray the circularity--the illogic--of your claim that one chooses one's beliefs. I also questioned the supposed "absolute standard" you claim to have access to by pointing out the relativism found amongst Christians themselves.
To the former point, all you can do is reiterate, "But you DO have a choice"; to the latter you actually go on to ESPOUSE moral relativism--in post 90! It seems that you're suggesting that for every single person, there is an absolute right and wrong, but it may vary from person to person. That, my friend, is post-modern moral relativism. Welcome, enjoy your stay!
If you, or I or anyone else, "chooses" to believe something for ANY other reason than because we are convinced of its truthfulness, our minds will not leave us alone on this matter. Did I choose to believe X because of social pressure? Because I hope that it's true? Because I can't bear to imagine that it's not? Who is willing to admit that any of those are why we believe what we believe?
And yet, if we "choose" to believe something because we are convinced of its truthfulness, well WE'RE NOT REALLY MAKING A CHOICE!
I know it's important for you to believe that it is a choice, because of the moral implications of judgement/salvation/hell/etc. But neither you, nor drmark, nor anyone else I've ever talked to about this matter, has come anywhere near making a case for "willful belief".
Great post, abraxas. This is one of the reasons I voted "other."
If we believe we can choose to be convinced of something or choose to be assured of something when in fact we are not convinced or assured, we are deceiving ourself.
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Heb 11:1 ESV)
It is not possible to genuinely choose to believe something for believing involves being assured and being convinced that something is true. Conviction is the fruit of undeniable evidence, not the fruit of choosing. Choice is involved, but only after you believe (have been convinced).
Blessings,
SH
So you're a robot too...I guess we never choose anything in this life, huh? So much for holding a murderer accountable for his actions...so much for holding an unbeliever accountable for God's refusal to help 'em out...  Boy aren't you lucky, SH!
You have lost all credibility with this "robot" arguement. Of course we choose and because of it we are condemned. Thank God for His way of salvation!
Blessings,
SH
Hey, you're the one that claimed you don't make a choice.
Allow me to use your favorite word that I know you're dying to utter for the umpteenth time--"STRAW-MAN!!!" 
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 7:29:17 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1741
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If we truly desired not to sin we wouldn't. We sin because we want to not because we have to, the task of not sinning is not impossible. And I totally agree, Mary! Any Christian who desires to sin has a very serious spiritual problem. By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, we do not have to sin and we can stop sinning!
quote:
We sin because we want to not because we have to, the task of not sinning is not impossible.
I don't know how many Amen's will do this justice, drmark. You said it before I could. Hallelujah I don't have to sin anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 7:33:08 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1741
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Until I do achieve perfection, I won't tell others that perfection is possible. Then why did Jesus command the impossible? Isn't that rather sadistic?
Define perfection, please.
Not according to the Calvinist, of course.
_____________________________
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 8:15:31 PM
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richartrod
Posts: 188
Joined: 4/21/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Indeed, we sin daily and sin much. That's why His grace is so amazing.
Antinomian tripe! Please read 1 John 3:4-10, richartrod, and reassess your admission. I certainly do not belong in the "we" you are discussing, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
drmark:
I respond to your post with 1 John 1:3-10, particularly verses 9 and 10. I have read the passage you referred to and in context it refers to those who claim to belong to God but willfully continue sinning without remorse or repentance, without caring a hoot if it grieves the Holy Spirit. Verses 11-22 continue the thought in that we will ultimately want to live a sanctified life and not willfully sin out of love for the Lord and each other.
Returning to the original poll, I am saved by my faith in Jesus Christ, whose death covers all my sins. I repent of my sins out of sorrow for them and love for the God who saved me. It's all a gift of grace, getting from God what I don't deserve. Thus, I reaffirm what you are free to disagree with as "antinomian tripe" and will be praying that you will truly understand how amazing God's grace really is.
Rich Rodriguez
West Covina, CA
2 Cor 1:3-5
Church: Immanuel First Lutheran, West Covina, CA
www.immanuelfirst.org
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 8:47:53 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Any Christian who desires to sin has a very serious spiritual problem.
This is a poorly worded description of the human condition. A person, Christian or otherwise, can have a real desire to NEVER make a wrong choice ('sin') ever again. But in the course of daily life situations arise that one must face in real time and there are other forces at work within oneself that will sometimes get the better of even the most desirous do-gooder.
Besides, the claim that you or anyone else can NEVER sin again is contingent on the ability to not only have perfect and consistent, moment-by-moment PERFECT will-power, but ALSO on the ability to know PERFECTLY the will of God. And until I see consensus in the morality/ethics folder, I have no choice to roll my eyes at the claim that you or anyone else is living a "perfect sinless life". Unless we invoke a relativistic attitude as ENG has....
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 8:54:45 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
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quote:
Yet he refused to accept Christ. He believed, but did not accept the gift nor repent of his sins.
Well, then, if he believed, this was a state of his mind that he did not willfully arrive at. However "accepting a gift" is an action, wherein "choice" does in fact come into play. See how simple that is?
quote:
Let's say you are right about this whole "Belief is not a choice" discussion. As you pointed out, and I explained with a personal experience, your belief does not demand an action. Therefore, even if I'm wrong and belief is not a choice we make, you STILL have the choice to acquiesce and act upon said belief. Sin belief does not demand an action (which I think we both agree with), then it really doesn't matter who's right concerning "belief is/isn't a choice"....you STILL have the choice to sit down in the chair (accepting Christ) or remain standing (reject the offer).
So for sake of further discussion, I'll just assume you're right, because honestly that's not the important past. So belief is not a choice. Fine...but your accepting Christ (or sitting in the chair) is still your choice.
I've just been bitten by a toothless dog. How on earth does a person "accept Christ" if they don't believe in Christ???? I could just as easily accept Scientology, while believing it to be total rubbish.
I'm sorry ENG, but your arguments are specious and contradictory and I've come to the end of my line with them. You accuse another poster of strawman argument--your post 154 was possibly the greatest strawman of this entire thread.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 10:01:42 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
Can you understand how that might confuse me? Sure, but since it's not really the topic of the thread, I think I will forego further discussion until an appropriate thread arises.
quote:
Thus, I reaffirm what you are free to disagree with as "antinomian tripe" and will be praying that you will truly understand how amazing God's grace really is. And I reaffirm that God's grace is amazing enough that none of us should sin daily! If one does, that's their sinful choice, NOT God's grace.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 1:16:52 AM
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Intrepidus
Posts: 104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richartrod
Returning to the original poll, I am saved by my faith in Jesus Christ, whose death covers all my sins. I repent of my sins out of sorrow for them and love for the God who saved me. It's all a gift of grace, getting from God what I don't deserve. Thus, I reaffirm what you are free to disagree with as "antinomian tripe" and will be praying that you will truly understand how amazing God's grace really is.
Amen, Rich! You rightly distinguish justification from sanctification. That's the difference between the Christian gospel and the "other" gospel of legalism (Gal 1:8).
-Intrepidus
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 2:31:24 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5078
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I disagree because I don't think we want to sin...
"The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". I interpret that to mean that once we're Spiritually reborn, we no longer want to sin but even in Christ we cannot attain absolute perfection until we join Him in His Kingdom.
Yes, I agree with your take. I think this exactly what the Bible is teaching when it says in 1John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Whosoever has been truly regenerated or "born from above" cannot commit sin in his soul because it has been made spiritually alive in Christ.
Just as when the Lord Jesus took Peter, James and John to Gethsemane and told them to "watch" and even warned them that the "flesh is weak". When they failed to do so, they sinned even though they had a willing spirit - even though they had a "born again" spirit in which dwelled no sin.
I mean, this is the Lord whom they loved so very much, they saw His tremendous sorrow and suffering, yet, still they could not "watch" with Him. When a truly born again believer dies, his soul, which is perfected and spiritually alive in Christ, can immediately enter God's holy heaven - because in this "new" soul dwells no sin.
< Message edited by kelman -- 10/23/2009 2:38:52 AM >
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 2:45:13 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5078
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
YORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
You have the choice to accept Christ. You can either choose to believe, giving your life to the Lord, or you can choose not to. The next time you sit in the chair at your computer, ask yourself if you really chose or not. For the sake of argument, let's assume you are a conservative, politically speaking. Are you able to simply choose that liberalism is the best system by which to run this country? Wouldn't you have to first be convinced of it validity - its superiority over conservatism?
And, if you are convinced liberalism is best for the country, wouldn't it be safe to say that you are already a believer in liberalism?
I don't know about you, but I know I am completely unable to choose something other than that of which I am convinced.
But the question is why are you convinced? Personally, I am conviced to be politically conservative and fundamental because I choose to believe the evidence and opinions that support said view. I would say that because you are convinced of the validity of the evidence and opinions, it is upon this basis you believe and support the conservative position.
quote:
I could just as easily choose to accept all the nonsensical conspiracy theories about George Bush and 911, but after reviewing the evidence, I am convinced to hold the opinions that I because I choose to believe the evidence that supports it. How could you choose to accept, or believe, that which is "nonsensical" to you? I don't think you could.
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Spiritually speaking, I have the choice to believe in the historical evidence of Christ and His death, and I can choose to believe the historical records written by the doctor and historian Luke in his Gospel and in Acts, or I can choose to deny said evidence. The same applies here. If after looking at the evidence and reading the Bible, you are convinced, as many are, that it was "nonsensical" you would never choose to accept or believe the claims. If, otoh, you are convinced of its truthfulness, you believe.
quote:
One has the choice the believe that the chair will hold them up. There is plenty of evidence that supports this belief, but regardless, YOU MAKE THE CHOICE to believe and sit in the chair. If not, kelman, please enlighten all of us by telling me who or what convinces you before you sit down? If it's not your choice, then who's or what's choice is it? I choose to sit in the chair because I am convinced by the undeniable evidence that it will hold my weight....probably saw other people bigger than me once sitting in it :)
I think that unless God fully "convinces" us, by making us spiritually alive in Christ, we will always make the wrong choices.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 4:17:31 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 358
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
The absolute king of all straw-man arguments exists in you head and consists of every single belief that you hold. It goes something like this--it is absolute truth that absolute truth does not exist.
Well since I made no such assertion, the strawman is all yours bro. Consider for example my post #28, where I wrote, "Even if there is an Absolute Standard, that's fine--I know I don't match up to it perfectly, but that's just it."
You just need to think more carefully about what other people write, and perhaps you'll avoid making so many strawman arguments.
quote:
Nice speaking with you. I highly doubt it will be the last time (perhaps even on this thread), but until then I wish you luck (pun intended  ) on your fruitless endeavor to find truth. You're going to need a whole lot more than luck though, my friend. You (everyone) need(s) God. Only then will you make progress.
Thank you for your well wishes, and for reiterating for the umpteenth time points that I have refuted umpteen times.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 7:37:43 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2808
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Kelman,
One of the common errors is equating saving faith with intellectual assent.
How do you appeal to a man's will is through his mind? True.
But how do you change a man's will? You can't.
What is confusing is the evry1 acknowledges the need for conviction
by the Holy Spirit.
For what?
Free will evangelism boils down to moving the will of man to
do what he is programmed to do, when in fact, they are asking
him to make a choice against his nature.
I think E1 knows this, but as soon as he understands no one CAN,
and the natural man CANNOT, and the lost are perishing, etc.
I think he will see what you and I see:
Everyone needs God, but who wants Him?
< Message edited by rwe2156 -- 10/23/2009 9:23:04 AM >
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 8:12:47 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Kelman,
One of the common errors is equating saving faith with intellectual assent.
How do you appeal to a man's will if not through his mind.
What is confusing is the evry1 acknowledges the need for conviction
by the Holy Spirit.
For what?
Free will evangelism boils down to moving the will of man to
do what he is programmed to do, when in fact, they are asking
him to make a choice against his nature.
I think E1 knows this, but as soon as he understands no one CAN,
and the natural man CANNOT, and the lost are perishing, etc.
I think he will see what you and I see:
Everyone needs God, but who wants Him?
I don't know who wants Him, but the Bible says that God wants everyone, so the fact that some don't come to Him mean there must be some sort of denial on their part, rather than on His. So the answer to the original post "Why should I let you into My kingdom" wouldn't be "because you said I could and not that guy", but it would be "Because I believe that your Son came to earth to atone for my sins... that He came in the flesh, suffered, died, and rose again, and in accepting this gift You have given the world, I have repented of my sins and made Your Son the Lord of my life."
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 8:29:32 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1672
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Hey, you're the one that claimed you don't make a choice.
You misrepresent me again. I said,
1.) faith is being convinced of the truth
2.) one is convinced by undeniable evidence
3.) one makes a choice after he is convinced by the undeniable evidence
4.) choice is not the determining cause of faith, but undeniable evidence is.
Choice is most definitely involved. I have always stated this.
quote:
Allow me to use your favorite word that I know you're dying to utter for the umpteenth time--"STRAW-MAN!!!"
So no, there is not strawman on my part, but again you have created an argument and attributed it to me and then tear it apart. Your way of arguing here is a classic strawman.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 9:41:27 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6726
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
The lost, without direct intervention of God the Holy Spirit, will choose the way of death.
quote:
That also means that the lost cannot NOT choose to sin because he is dead in sin.
I will admit that I have not had the time to study the responses in this thread as of yet, but I seem to be a bit confused about your statements.
Are you saying that Free will does not extend to a person being able to believe in Christ?
And since you "Seem" to be saying that one can only believe in Christ if God permits Or offers it to them; do you think God offers belief in Christ to all people?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 9:44:29 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6726
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
It's true. Read the wording. This passage talks about one who practices sin... not one who falls into temptation from time to time. You have to look at this passage in combination with others... like maybe the ones to which i referred earlier.
And what would be your definition of "Practicing" sin, versus "Falling into temptation from time to time"?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 9:47:10 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
If you were to stand before God today, and He were to ask you, "Why should I let you into My Kingdom?", what would you say?
I thought I answered the OP a while ago but I don't see it so it must have been a different thread, they are all starting to run together. 
If I am standing before God and He is saying anything other then welcome good and faithful servant, it wont end well for me. We wont be able to sweet talk our way in. And really who wants just His kingdom, I want perfect unity with Him, if He choses for that to take place in heaven fine, but my goal is perfect unity.
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/23/2009 9:55:38 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2808
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I don't know who wants Him, but the Bible says that God wants everyone, so the fact that some don't come to Him mean there must be some sort of denial on their part, rather than on His. So the answer to the original post "Why should I let you into My kingdom" wouldn't be "because you said I could and not that guy", but it would be "Because I believe that your Son came to earth to atone for my sins... that He came in the flesh, suffered, died, and rose again, and in accepting this gift You have given the world, I have repented of my sins and made Your Son the Lord of my life."
All true, McFatty.
I hope everyone in both camps agree on what we need to "do" to be saved.
The question is what do we need to be saved.
One "side" walks in a Light that man is totally depraved and at
enmity with God. Even though he has a knowledge of God this
is not saving faith, but simply mental knowledge of God's general revelation.
The "other side"thinks man possesses all he needs to exercise faith, even
though the Bible says he is faithless (Rom 1:20).
One side faces a paradox: if man is unable, how can he be held responsible
for what he cannot do and God still be just?
The other side faces (to me) a much more difficult problem: how can a man
make a choice against his nature — exactly why is the gospel foolishness to him?
Why is the natural man unable to understand the gospel?
Why does man need the Holy Spirit to convict and open his wicked
heart of stone. He does not possess that ability. He is in a desperate
and hopeless condition ....................but God. . . . .but God, McFatty.
No one — the Bible says NO ONE confesses Christ without the Spirit (1Cor 12:3).
The Bible says whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, and the
next verse tells us who the "whoever" is? a believer. Read it yourself.
Fallacy 1: We receive grace because of a choice we made. This is salvation
by "he who runs or he who wills", "by human decision", not by God who has mercy.
It is a fallacy of overbalanced free will theology and leads to man-centered
evangelism...............correction: decisionism.
Fallacy 2: We are elect because of a choice WE made. This guts the true
meaning of election and denies the overarching purpose of election: God
calls certain people unto himself for his own reasons, by his own means,
and who are we to question that? Why do we call him unjust for who
can resist his will? (Rom 9:14).
We are elect because we have been chosen. As despicable a theology as
that seems to many, it is true: God works in man by his own choice.
We did nothing to earn our election. Our election has nothing to do with
anything we did or decided. We did not earn it, nor merit it.
I don't know where you stand theologically, but just hear me out please:
I started out by studying the condition of man from what the Bible
says in order to refute the Reformed ones. What I concluded was they
are much closer to the truth than the free willers.
I concluded everyone needs God, but no one wants God — not in their natural state.
A revelation came to me: there is nothing in man that can cause him to
choose Christ. He is helpless and hopeless.
Theologically, I had to relocate.
(Mind you, I haven't completely moved in. Some of my stuff is still in storage )
Everyone definitely needs God, and he will be found by those who do
not seek him..............(Rom 10:20).
God Bless.
< Message edited by rwe2156 -- 10/23/2009 10:14:54 AM >
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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That's pretty much what I've been trying to say.
