RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Opening Post).
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[Poll]
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A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Opening Post).
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| Because I'm a good person. |
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| Because I've been baptized. |
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| Because of my works and faith. |
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| Because I've repented of my sins and accepted Christ as Lord. |
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| Because everyone goes to Heaven. |
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| Because of the Sacraments. |
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| Because of my works. |
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| Other (please specify). |
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Total Votes : 54
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(last vote on : 11/13/2009 11:09:25 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 12:05:53 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
quote:
crankius, do you see God's sovereignty in creating us with the free will to reject His grace?
Scripture has convinced me that a slave to sin, a dead person, has no choice but to choose the way of rotting flesh. crankius, I'm sorry but I do not understand your answer to what I thought was a simple question. How does anyone become saved? Do you believe that some people reject God's grace or that all are saved? Why do some reject His grace and others are saved? If this is the result of divine, unknowable predetermined decree and absolutely unrelated to anything we do, say, or think, then why is that not "dumb luck" from our miserable, worthless, totally impotent perspective?
Excellent question drmark, is free will really free will, or is there no such thing and all is controlled by the tenents of Calvanism?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 12:25:36 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
crankius, I'm sorry but I do not understand your answer to what I thought was a simple question. How does anyone become saved? Do you believe that some people reject God's grace or that all are saved? Why do some reject His grace and others are saved? If this is the result of divine, unknowable predetermined decree and absolutely unrelated to anything we do, say, or think, then why is that not "dumb luck" from our miserable, worthless, totally impotent perspective?
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9:16
According to Scripture, salvation has nothing to do with dumb luck.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 12:26:01 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2808
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
So you sitting down in that chair is not really making a choice?!? You're just
a robot stumbling through reality?!
ENG, I've tried to be clear on the distinction between, say, to lie or not to lie,
or to wear a blue shirt or a white one, and beliefs. Until you appreciate the
difference, and until you appreciate that a person can say that belief is not
simply a matter of choice WITHOUT implying that every action is not simply
a matter of choice, you will not be able to see where I'm coming from.
Keep them separate in your mind and go and reread what I've posted.
Abraxas, I think you realize (correctly) that saving faith is not
like any other choice or even a moral choice.
Comparing saving faith with any kind of choice we make is a mistake.
This kind of faith can save no man. There is only one kind of faith that saves.
E1 and his chair analogy simply fails to illustrate the kind of choice
men must make.
One can chalk it up to the mysterious workings of the will of man, but
fortunately the Bible is clear as to why the gospel is foolishness to the
and why the natural man cannot understand it.
What the free willers fail to ackowledge is the gospel is foolishness and
will remain foolishness until a person's heart is convicted and opened b
y the Holy Spirit. Even though the free willer says this, he has to deny
the truth behind man's helplessness and inability.
He wants desperately to think it is all up to man, because the alternative
is just too awful to consider: that God doesn't intend to save every person.
If you read the latter part of John 2 and 3(the Nicodemus story), Jesus is
teaching us there is more to faith than simply acknowledging, accepting,
or making a choice. Nic chose to believe, but this was not a saving faith.
Nic believed who Jesus was but was not saved on that basis. This is why
Jesus said you must be born again — the one thing for sure men cannot do.
This is very important, and I repeat: The choice or ability or will to believe
the sun will rise in the East is not a saving type of faith. We will be very
mistaken to reduce faith to simply choosing. Portraying it like E1 has
is the result of focusing on man and his supposed natural ability, while
forgetting the condition of man and his helplessness.
Abraxas, NOBODY can make an autonomous choice to exercise saving faith.
The Bible says men are faithless (Rom 1:20), and faith is a gift (Eph 2:8-9)
so how can they exercise something they do not possess?
E1NG said
quote:
I think the mere fact that he's been asking and searching for answers
from a Christian's POV the last couple weeks is enough evidence for me that
the Holy Spirit is and has been convicting him.
E1, if Abraxas could make an independent choice on his own, why would he
need convicting which leads to repentance? Why not just convincing which
bears on the voluntary will?
Do you think you should to pray for Abraxas? If so, why pray to God if
all Abraxas needs do is simply make a free, voluntary choice?
No, man needs convicting and you know it. I know it is because by nature he
is at enmity with God, and you think he has saving knowledge of God and
chooses to not exercise it.
I say man loves his sin and the gospel is foolishness to him.
E1 also said,
quote:
Come on, abraxas, can't you see how your post-modernistic
agnosticism is making you sound silly and ridiculous?
What about the postmodern evangelicalism that is the norm today?
What is it producing. You check the stats and tell me whether
Christianity is on the rise, brother and ponder whether it might
be the result of gospel reductionism and man centeredness.
Do we control our own destiny or not?
Does the salvation of one man over another really just boil down
to fate and the mysteries of man's will?
I certainly hope not.
< Message edited by rwe2156 -- 10/22/2009 1:37:49 PM >
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 12:28:02 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Excellent question drmark, is free will really free will, or is there no such thing and all is controlled by the tenents of Calvanism?
Thanks
RC
Believers have free will. The lost have free will. Both will excercise their free wills according to their nature. The believer can choose NOT to sin. The lost, without direct intervention of God the Holy Spirit, will choose the way of death.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 1:01:39 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6726
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Excellent question drmark, is free will really free will, or is there no such thing and all is controlled by the tenents of Calvanism?
Thanks
RC
Believers have free will. The lost have free will. Both will excercise their free wills according to their nature. The believer can choose NOT to sin. The lost, without direct intervention of God the Holy Spirit, will choose the way of death.
Is what you describing really free will, or prescribed will?
I mean if you honestly believe there is no free will; why not state such?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 1:44:50 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
According to Scripture, salvation has nothing to do with dumb luck. Right, crankius, according to Scripture salvation comes by grace through faith in Christ. You need a good Arminian exposition of Romans 9, it appears...  Thanks for trying, anyway!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 2:04:37 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Excellent question drmark, is free will really free will, or is there no such thing and all is controlled by the tenents of Calvanism?
Thanks
RC
Believers have free will. The lost have free will. Both will excercise their free wills according to their nature. The believer can choose NOT to sin. The lost, without direct intervention of God the Holy Spirit, will choose the way of death.
Is what you describing really free will, or prescribed will?
I mean if you honestly believe there is no free will; why not state such?
Thanks
RC
RC, that is free will as I understand the Bible to teach. A pig, a dog, a tare, a lost man will each excerise free will according to their nature. The pig returns to its mire, the dog returns to its vomit, the tare can't produce wheat, and the lost man is unable and unwilling to choose God - all due to their nature.
I thought you & DrMark agreed that the believer can choose NOT to sin because he has a new nature. That also means that the lost cannot NOT choose to sin because he is dead in sin.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 2:27:27 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
Drmark, I used to read Romans the same way you do. I doubt it. Those who truly understand the biblical relationship between God's sovereignty and God's Love rarely become Calvinists, in my humble experience. But, I cannot speak for you, crankius.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 2:47:12 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Drmark, I used to read Romans the same way you do.
So did I, for over half my life. I have found that those who truly understand the biblical relationship between God's sovereignty and God's Love rarely remain Arminian.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 3:11:18 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I disagree because I don't think we want to sin...
"The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". I interpret that to mean that once we're Spiritually reborn, we no longer want to sin but even in Christ we cannot attain absolute perfection until we join Him in His Kingdom.
I don't think we start each day wanting/hoping to be able to sin, thats not what I am talking about. When we chose to sin we decided to do that sin for a reason an outcome which we want/desire. The desired outcome has become that which we desire more then our desire to love God. If I steal a candy bar I have placed a value on my love for God of less then my desire for a candy bar. Yes the flesh is weak, I didn't say this was easy, but the other half of that statement is that the spirit is willing. I think the willing spirit is stronger then the weak flesh, will all Christians reach perfection in this life - I don't think so sadly, is it possible and should it be the goal - with out question, otherwise you have decided that it couldn't be possible to love God above all things.
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 3:46:11 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6726
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Believers have free will. The lost have free will. Both will excercise their free wills according to their nature. The believer can choose NOT to sin. The lost, without direct intervention of God the Holy Spirit, will choose the way of death.
In you definition of free will you state that the believer can choose not to sin, so can that same believer chooe to sin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 3:46:31 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Something being possible or not isn't a personal decision... it's what is actually possible. I know it hasn't been possible for me in my life. Until I do achieve perfection, I won't tell others that perfection is possible.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 4:04:56 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
Until I do achieve perfection, I won't tell others that perfection is possible. Then why did Jesus command the impossible? Isn't that rather sadistic?
Define perfection, please.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 4:18:22 PM
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richartrod
Posts: 188
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: richartrod
To me, to claim that we have repented of all our sins smacks of works righteousness; it's like saying "Hey, people, look how good I am because I repented of ALL my sins and YOU DIDN'T! Nyaaaaaah!" In that silly example, the speaker has already committed three sins: pride, lying and hypocrisy.
And that is why I voted for "other."
Rich Rodriguez
This comment caught my eye, so may I respond?
You are simply describing the spiritual battle between the Spirit and flesh which IS the Christian life. (emphasis added by me)
Repentance is not a work for the simple reason that when we repent we are doing so as one righteous in Christ.
A work is only a work if it is done in unrighteousness, ie, the flesh.
Repentance also involves more than just turning from sin to God.
The root word in the Greek, metanoia literally means, "a change of mind".
When we actually repent, this is the outward expression of the inward change and is not only necessary for exercising faith, but is crucial to a living, growing relationship with God.
So its not that we are walking around self-flagellating. No, we are walking around in grace, but when we sin, our conscience is reminded of Christ's sacrifice and what it took for us to be justified.
But still, we sin. Our desire is not to sin, but we cannot fulfill it.
Repentance is a part of sanctification, too, and is the mark of a true believer who has received Jesus Christ not only as Savior, but as Lord.
Excellent response. It was worth highlighting the parts I bolded and italicized.
Although the last paragraph in my post was a tongue-in-cheek example of pride and works righteousness, it was not meant to pooh-pooh or denegrate the act of repentance in and of itself. The same day I posted that piece I had to repent of my anger toward Hank Hanegraaff, "The Bible Answer Man", for the way he arrogantly defends the amillenialist view of eschatology (which I also hold) and always rips apart Tim LaHaye of "Left Behind" fame; that gets really old after a while. This is the main reason I stopped listening to him: he repeatedly breaks his own rule of "agreeing to disagree agreeably", which in turn left me steamed.
Right then and there the Holy Spirit convicted me of that sin of resentment. I repented of it, asked God for His forgiveness, and admitted it to a friend in Celebrate Recovery. If Jesus truly wasn't my Lord as well as Savior, I wouldn't have been convicted of my resentment.
Indeed, we sin daily and sin much. That's why His grace is so amazing.
Thanks.
Rich Rodriguez
West Covina, CA
www.pandapolis.com
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 4:18:43 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Until I do achieve perfection, I won't tell others that perfection is possible. Then why did Jesus command the impossible? Isn't that rather sadistic?
Define perfection, please.
God has always commanded the impossible. Since we are not worthy and not able to live perfectly, we need Christ. If we could achieve perfection, Jesus would have suffered and died for no reason.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 says "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."
It's important, also, to check the tense in 1 Timothy 1:15. "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I AM foremost of all." That's present tense. That isn't a distant memory.
Perfection is living a one hundred percent sinless life. If you (not talking to a specific person... just in general) say you've not sinned a single time since your spiritual rebirth, I applaud you, but I'd be very skeptical. I'd be just as skeptical if you say you haven't sinned this week.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 4:44:23 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
God has always commanded the impossible.
How do "you" (anyone) decide which of Gods commands are possible and which are not?
quote:
Perfection is living a one hundred percent sinless life. If you (not talking to a specific person... just in general) say you've not sinned a single time since your spiritual rebirth, I applaud you, but I'd be very skeptical. I'd be just as skeptical if you say you haven't sinned this week.
We are outside of the spiritual life if we are living in sin.
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 4:48:56 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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The Bible tells us that there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. So I'm not deciding it. I'm letting the Bible tell me.
There's a difference between falling into temptation from time to time, the way believers do, and having a sin nature. Before one has been reborn, they have a sin nature. Even so, these lost people do good things from time to time. Just as they do good from time to time, we who are reborn, now having a Spirit nature still do evil from time to time. According to the Bible, this is how it is.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 4:49:35 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4622
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quote:
Indeed, we sin daily and sin much. That's why His grace is so amazing. Antinomian tripe! Please read 1 John 3:4-10, richartrod, and reassess your admission. I certainly do not belong in the "we" you are discussing, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
quote:
We are outside of the spiritual life if we are living in sin. Amen! 1 John 3:4-10 confirms this.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 4:59:29 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The Bible tells us that there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. So I'm not deciding it. I'm letting the Bible tell me.
There's a difference between falling into temptation from time to time, the way believers do, and having a sin nature. Before one has been reborn, they have a sin nature. Even so, these lost people do good things from time to time. Just as they do good from time to time, we who are reborn, now having a Spirit nature still do evil from time to time. According to the Bible, this is how it is.
I have always understood Ecclesiastes 7:20 in the same light as Romans 5:12.
Mary
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 5:00:18 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Indeed, we sin daily and sin much. That's why His grace is so amazing. Antinomian tripe! Please read 1 John 3:4-10, richartrod, and reassess your admission. I certainly do not belong in the "we" you are discussing, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
quote:
We are outside of the spiritual life if we are living in sin. Amen! 1 John 3:4-10 confirms this.
It's true. Read the wording. This passage talks about one who practices sin... not one who falls into temptation from time to time. You have to look at this passage in combination with others... like maybe the ones to which i referred earlier.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 5:03:33 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The Bible tells us that there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. So I'm not deciding it. I'm letting the Bible tell me.
There's a difference between falling into temptation from time to time, the way believers do, and having a sin nature. Before one has been reborn, they have a sin nature. Even so, these lost people do good things from time to time. Just as they do good from time to time, we who are reborn, now having a Spirit nature still do evil from time to time. According to the Bible, this is how it is.
I have always understood Ecclesiastes 7:20 in the same light as Romans 5:12.
Mary
Explain, if you would.
Also, is anyone willing to claim they've been living a perfect life?
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 5:06:48 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Also, is anyone willing to claim they've been living a perfect life? Not by your (faulty) definition. But by the biblical definition of sinless perfection in and through Christ's Love, millions of Holiness Believers around the world live a perfect life, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 5:14:42 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 675
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The Bible tells us that there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. So I'm not deciding it. I'm letting the Bible tell me.
There's a difference between falling into temptation from time to time, the way believers do, and having a sin nature. Before one has been reborn, they have a sin nature. Even so, these lost people do good things from time to time. Just as they do good from time to time, we who are reborn, now having a Spirit nature still do evil from time to time. According to the Bible, this is how it is.
I have always understood Ecclesiastes 7:20 in the same light as Romans 5:12.
Mary
Explain, if you would.
Also, is anyone willing to claim they've been living a perfect life?
Sometime tomorrow I will get back to you on this, time to make dinner and do all that stuff  that has to be done for tomorrow.
_____________________________
Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
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RE: A Very Important Question To Ask Yourself (See Open... - 10/22/2009 5:27:26 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Also, is anyone willing to claim they've been living a perfect life? Not by your (faulty) definition. But by the biblical definition of sinless perfection in and through Christ's Love, millions of Holiness Believers around the world live a perfect life, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
Would you be so kind as to correct what you believe is a faulty definition then?
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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