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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/4/2009 7:59:24 PM
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cornergas
Posts: 231
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We can thank the Roman church of 1700 years ago for bringing us all the pagan influences into the christian movement..such as Dec 25th which they wrongfully said was the birth of our Lord and Saviour, when in fact it is strictly pagan in origin..also the easter thing, instead of the proper date passover..these "papal" decrees have been swallowed hook line and sinker by 90 percent of professing Christians, at the expense of following God's commanded days, according to His word. Oh well should come as no surprise, the Apostles Paul and John, said there were already and would be more false teachers, and anti christs at work teaching another christ other than the one of the Bible..so they were right on!
Know the truth and it will set you free
Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy
God bless us all.
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/4/2009 8:20:47 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3177
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From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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I, personally, don't think that the continual harassment of our sisters and brothers in Messiah does one bit of good. I do not wish to do that. I am curious about something, however.
While I don't agree that the day can be christianized, for those who love and continue to observe Christmas, desiring to set it aside as a day to honor Messiah, would it still be a great celebration for you if during this time, you discarded these common occult-generated items:
- the common use of green and red (it's not just a TV show!
 )
- mistletoe
- the decorated tree
- the wreaths
- holly, etc.
(obviously not a complete list)
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/4/2009 8:23:43 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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cornergas, read my lips: everyone knows Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. December 25th is just December 25th however. It like every other day belongs to the Lord. The pagans don't OWN any days on the calendar.
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/4/2009 8:51:28 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I, personally, don't think that the continual harassment of our sisters and brothers in Messiah does one bit of good. I do not wish to do that. I am curious about something, however.
While I don't agree that the day can be christianized, for those who love and continue to observe Christmas, desiring to set it aside as a day to honor Messiah, would it still be a great celebration for you if during this time, you discarded these common occult-generated items:
- the common use of green and red (it's not just a TV show! )
- mistletoe
- the decorated tree
- the wreaths
- holly, etc.
(obviously not a complete list)
Every day is a day to honor Messiah. December is just the traditional time to reflect on the incarnation. Churches with a more formal worship calendar have an annual cycle of focusing on various parts of the gospel through out the year. Less formal churches tend to only focus on the death, resurrection and incarnation on a yearly predictable basis. This cycling through is quite like our MJ brothers and sisters in that respect.
It's been a lot of generations since there was any connection of red, green, mistletoe, etc to paganism. Most people don't relate to that idea at all, and only in recent years did the discussion of that connection come about. Do pagans assign meaning to evergreens? So does the Bible. ETC. I don't feel paganized by putting a wedding ring on either. I don't feel like the people that throw rice, birdseed at weddings need to repent for accidentally doing something pagans see as superstitious. Really do we need to research everything to see if some pagan came up with the idea? Are forks okay? Is eating with the right hand okay? How about the left? If pagans pray in the forest, may we pray in the forest, or does that make our prayers pagan? I don't feel that I'm sinning calling the days of the week by our culturally set norm either. I am not honoring a pagan god.
Christmas is truly two things to me, an advent season, and a cultural celebration. This is not unlike everyday life. We celebrate small things, big things, family things, cultural things and we live a spiritual life too, daily, weekly, annually etc. In our celebrations we know from whom all blessings flow. We do not esteem any other god. This is true whether it is a family reunion, the Fourth of July, Thanksgiving, or whatever. God is the God of our days. All of our days.
My grandparents from Norway remembered Christ's birth at church and in the home on Christmas Eve as a holy day, and Christmas as a family party day. I can relate to embracing both. I can''t find sin in the party part of Christmas. Where is it?
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/4/2009 10:06:11 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2365
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
the Apostles Paul and John, said there were already and would be more false teachers, and anti christs at work teaching another christ other than the one of the Bible..so they were right on!
So if someone celebrates Christmas on Dec. 25th and observes Easter on the popular date, they are worshiping a false Christ?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 11:26:03 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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the common use of green and red (it's not just a TV show! )
I use cream and a sage green cause it goes with my decor
mistletoe
I don't use that and not sure where to even get it
the decorated tree
Mine is decorated with Crismons - all symbolic of Christ or the Gospel
the wreaths
I use wreaths year round and decorate them seasonly as in fall, winter, spring and summer
holly, etc.
Ugh...I hate holly
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 11:34:55 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 8047
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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the common use of green and red (it's not just a TV show! )
I prefer blue and silver myself. Looks more wintery.
mistletoe
I'm single...why do I need mistletoe?
the decorated tree
Guilty! I love seeing all of the different ornaments from years past and what was going on in my life at that time.
the wreaths
I have fall and winter wreaths I use as table centerpieces.
holly, etc.
Blech.
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 12:03:39 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
Status: offline
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quote:
We can thank the Roman church of 1700 years ago for bringing us all the pagan influences into the christian movement..such as Dec 25th which they wrongfully said was the birth of our Lord and Saviour, when in fact it is strictly pagan in origin..also the easter thing, instead of the proper date passover..these "papal" decrees have been swallowed hook line and sinker by 90 percent of professing Christians, at the expense of following God's commanded days, according to His word. Oh well should come as no surprise, the Apostles Paul and John, said there were already and would be more false teachers, and anti christs at work teaching another christ other than the one of the Bible..so they were right on!
Conergas, great post. Why is it acceptable to accept certain Roman practices while other are frowned upon?
_____________________________
Deb
"In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks."
Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 2:14:21 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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I seem to have got hit by a few of those stones you didn't throw...
ouchie...
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 2:42:03 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3177
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From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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Thank you for your answers. I am just trying to understand.
Yes, Christmas is irritating to me, because of its invasive nature and commercialism, but I understand the fond feelings deeply rooted in it. I also understand that some Christmas (and Thanksgiving) family celebrations are VERY stressful for everyone because of family issues. When i used to go to my parents' home for their celebrations, it was very stressful for me, but I understand that it can be horrendous in some families.
One of P.D.Q. Bach's Christmas carols expresses some of that stress nicely  , particularly in the following verse from "Throw the Yule Log On, Uncle John" by P.D.Q. Bach (1807-1742)?
quote:
Ten o’clock on Christmas morn and all the guests are coming to the door;
Ten o’clock on Christmas morn and Uncle John’s already on the floor.
Though the weather’s bitter cold there’s not a frown to mar the festive mood;
Wait ’til they discover that old Uncle John has eaten all the food.
Hear the hall clock strike, Uncle John
Hear the hall clock strike Uncle John from http://www.schickele.com/composition/consortchristmas.htm
[Others of P.D.Q. Bach's Christmas carols:
"O Little Town of Hackensack"
"Good King Kong"]
So I am curious: are these holidays so intricately bound in the yearly tradition that you just bite your tongue and invite everyone over, continuing to hope that maybe the guests will be nice this time?
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 11/5/2009 2:50:23 PM >
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 2:46:46 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6340
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
So I am curious: are these holidays so intricately bound in the yearly tradition that you just bite your tongue and invite everyone over, continuing to hope that maybe the gueses will be nice this time?
I only invite people over that I love and cherrish and enjoy being around. I can count on my fingers the number of Christmas cards we send out.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 2:56:39 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
Status: offline
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The thing I find odd is that so many believers would be willing to have the annual public mention, especially through song, of the gospel, removed from it's occurrence. We want LESS mention of the gospel in our public square?
Christmas and family trouble...a bit like the gathering for worship with fellow believers. Not unusual to find family trouble in churches but yet we don't usually recommend the end of the gathering of the saints.
< Message edited by Corne -- 11/5/2009 3:02:50 PM >
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 3:03:45 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 8047
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline
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I celebrate with my parents, my children, and occasionally my brother and his family.
My brother and I do not get along at all, don't see eye to eye on things but are willing to put that aside once or twice a year for the sake of our parents.
I don't stress but I don't put up with a whole lot, including selfishness in trying to instill his views upon my parents and/or I.
This year I'm only going to have to deal with my brother and his family a couple of hours so that makes me happy. 
_____________________________
When I've shown you that I just don't care
When I'm throwing punches in the air
When I'm broken down and I can't stand
Will you be strong enough to be my man?
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 3:18:30 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3177
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: being knit together in my mother's womb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
The thing I find odd is that so many believers would be willing to have the annual public mention, especially through song, of the gospel, removed from it's occurrence. We want LESS mention of the gospel in our public square?
Where I live, there is little, if any, public mention of Messiah. It is all santa, elves, reindeer, spirits and spooks, holly, mistletoe, yule logs, etc. The only time I hear any public mention of Messiah is in the very, very rare church chimes playing a wordless Christmas song.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 3:21:52 PM
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moon_mouse
Posts: 435
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
would it still be a great celebration for you if during this time, you discarded these common occult-generated items:
The only two on your list that I use are the wreath and the tree. The wreath I don't care about so much, but my tree is filled with favorite childhood ornaments and ornaments collected on travels. I'd still have a great holiday without it, but I'd miss my annual trip down memory lane unpacking and decorating the tree. I don't have an issue with the pagan origin of the symbol, since most symbols have a pagan origin (human beings told stories through symbols for thousands of years before Christ) and because the meaning I assign to those symbols is not pagan.
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 3:31:13 PM
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moon_mouse
Posts: 435
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
So I am curious: are these holidays so intricately bound in the yearly tradition that you just bite your tongue and invite everyone over, continuing to hope that maybe the guests will be nice this time?
I used to let myself be guilted into going and doing by relatives. Then I grew up and learned how to set boundaries. We spend our holidays where we want, with who we want, doing what we want. Family and friends can feel free to join us, invite us (which we feel free to accept or not), or go their own way. They also know what will and will not be accepted in our house. If they can't abide by that, they know not to come over.
People who feel obligated by family generally feel obligated the other 364 days of the year. The holiday is not at fault. It's how people choose to interact with their family.
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 3:35:30 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Where I live, there is little, if any, public mention of Messiah. It is all santa, elves, reindeer, spirits and spooks, holly, mistletoe, yule logs, etc. The only time I hear any public mention of Messiah is in the very, very rare church chimes playing a wordless Christmas song.
wow...You should come on down here! We still talk about Jesus in Wal-Mart. We hear Christ-centered carols everywhere, and even unbelievers know the reason for the season!
The bible-belt keeps a snug fit on some of that worldy stuff. 
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 3:37:40 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
The thing I find odd is that so many believers would be willing to have the annual public mention, especially through song, of the gospel, removed from it's occurrence. We want LESS mention of the gospel in our public square?
Where I live, there is little, if any, public mention of Messiah. It is all santa, elves, reindeer, spirits and spooks, holly, mistletoe, yule logs, etc. The only time I hear any public mention of Messiah is in the very, very rare church chimes playing a wordless Christmas song.
Some of it might be escaping your notice, you have wanted to block out Christmas for a long time. Maybe for distraction you could look and listen for nativity scenes, gospel containing songs etc. It is not a ratio of secular vs gospel but the fact and joy that the gospel is still seen as norm in our culture's Christmas, and that we still have the freedom to speak, display and sing it in the public square, tho more and more restrictions are coming about. (all the more reason to treasure its presence)
I do realize that a nativity scene might not seem like a pure representation to you, and that some gospel alluding songs could be dissected theologically, but remember, Paul spoke to the greeks about their beliefs and said, this, this is the true and living God. There are a lot of gentiles out there that just need to come to the message of the gospel, and to be reminded that there are believers in their culture. Theology is taught later. (I'm not advocating intentionally skewing the gospel for palatability)
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RE: Christmas only for turkeys? - 11/5/2009 3:59:27 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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At least it's still a fight we're allowed to have. We need to stop being offended as believers and realize that our freedoms are a gift and we need to pray for the continuance of that freedom, and for the salvation of the flesh that threaten us. We (in a very general sense, we believers)get angry instead of allowing it to wake us up to the importance of it all. IMO.
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