quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Hi Gary...yes they were stranded there because of their lack of faith. God said they would never enter His rest.

My point was God has no problem making a decision about who lives and who dies, regardless of how they die. God passes judgment based on His omniscience and divine providence .

Bob

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I was just looking for a better answer than 'God just does what he wants to,' or 'whatever God does is right,' although those things are true- I wanted to be able to show that there was a difference between what is called just and what would be called unjust- and our God doesn't do unjust things.

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ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

I was just looking for a better answer than 'God just does what he wants to,' or 'whatever God does is right,' although those things are true- I wanted to be able to show that there was a difference between what is called just and what would be called unjust- and our God doesn't do unjust things.

Hi Gary...so are you saying that we, His creation should be the judge regarding what is just and unjust about how God operates?

The reason this is a difficult issue is because I don't think God has disclosed His reasoning.

Bob

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ORIGINAL: garyhicks

quote:

Their destruction was the removal of a great terminal cancer from the earth
Yes, children and animals were involved in these rituals!

Hi- Ghitch:

The question in my mind was never why God would destroy wicked people- after all he is going to resurrect and judge the entire human race on the last day- some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation.

The question that perturbed me was with the children. I know you quote that young and old were doing wickedness and I believe that- but I was referring to the very young such as infants who were killed.

There is another question however that people seem to quote very often about God judging America or wicked nations- but few have ever put their finger on any exact nation IN THE NEW TESTAMENT (outside of Jerusalem in 70 AD) that they could say without question that God destroyed.

We have Jesus saying there will be wars and rumors of wars and that has happened ever since Jesus has said that- so I am thinking more along the lines of God judging everyone at the 'day of judgment' rather than saying God will do such and such to our nation or to another nation if they don't stop doing this or that.

Which nations over the last 2000 years has God destroyed without question? Did God destroy the Roman Empire or were they destroyed from within? Was Germany destroyed for killing so many people during the holocaust, and if so, do you believe the citizens themselves were maybe were not even directly involved in what Hitler was doing were also killed by God?

And if you answer yes, then how do you think God would judge American citizens for 'allowing' their government to kill innocents abroad- even though citizens who are against the unlawful killing can do hardly anything to stop them?

Got answers?

quote:

"Was Germany destroyed for killing so many people during the holocaust,

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...and if so, do you believe the citizens themselves were maybe were not even directly involved in what Hitler was doing were also killed by God?"

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"And if you answer yes, then how do you think God would judge American citizens for 'allowing' their government to kill innocents abroad- even though citizens who are against the unlawful killing can do hardly anything to stop them? "

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ORIGINAL: godsend221

If God is so loving, why did he kill innocent people in the Old Testament?

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First of all there is no such thing as an innocent person, in God's eyes...."That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Romans 3:19)..."For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

.....Because they were evil people. and God didn't want ther evilness to infect His chosen.

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ORIGINAL: Redjasper

They couldn't save themselves and didn't have anything to offer to God to make it right with Him. "Jesusless" times led to destruction, Jesus saves and He is life.

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ORIGINAL: facedown

eschatologist

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First of all there is no such thing as an innocent person, in God's eyes...."That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Romans 3:19)..."For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

.....Because they were evil people. and God didn't want ther evilness to infect His chosen.

i only point this out, because if you're going to use such an argument, it needs to be wholly re-structured. this is a stream of thought that i'm sure most "christians" would provide to such a question, but in the end, i find it somewhat lacking.

let me see if i can break it down here:

a) no one is innocent
b) all are guilty
c) god killed them so they wouldn't infect his chosen

the problem with "c)" is that it seems to negate both "a" and "b".

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Jesus, the same yesterday, today and forever?

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ORIGINAL: Redjasper

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Jesus, the same yesterday, today and forever?

That's why I put a " " around "Jesusless". Hope that explains it.

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Ok... So what does it mean?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

I am several months late on this thread, but in answer to the primary question, 'why does God kill people in the Bible', I would say that God allows all physical death to exist because of the sin of Adam; everyone's death is attributable to this primary event. As to why some people die sooner than others, perhaps as the result of the direct command of God, I would say that this too ultimately results from that primary event; we are reminded again and again throughout history (which God has graciously recorded for us in Scripture) that sin leads to death - children die as result of their parents creating societies based on willful rebellion against God, and the entire society suffers, even those who didn't create the original circumstances of that rebellion. This is always true, even today. We can accept this as truth and seek through the advocacy of truth and our own obedience to alleviate the consequences of such rebellion, or we too will experience the same result.

quote:

Of course, even if we DO "accept this as truth and seek through the advocacy snd our own obedience to alleviate the consequences of such rebellion" we may still, and often shall, experience the same result.

God will still smite the faithful as well as the unfaithful.
It's completely at His choosing.

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God will still smite the faithful as well as the unfaithful. It's completely at His choosing.

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ORIGINAL: GHitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: garyhicks

quote:

Their destruction was the removal of a great terminal cancer from the earth
Yes, children and animals were involved in these rituals!

Hi- Ghitch:

The question in my mind was never why God would destroy wicked people- after all he is going to resurrect and judge the entire human race on the last day- some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation.

The question that perturbed me was with the children. I know you quote that young and old were doing wickedness and I believe that- but I was referring to the very young such as infants who were killed.

There is another question however that people seem to quote very often about God judging America or wicked nations- but few have ever put their finger on any exact nation IN THE NEW TESTAMENT (outside of Jerusalem in 70 AD) that they could say without question that God destroyed.

We have Jesus saying there will be wars and rumors of wars and that has happened ever since Jesus has said that- so I am thinking more along the lines of God judging everyone at the 'day of judgment' rather than saying God will do such and such to our nation or to another nation if they don't stop doing this or that.

Which nations over the last 2000 years has God destroyed without question? Did God destroy the Roman Empire or were they destroyed from within? Was Germany destroyed for killing so many people during the holocaust, and if so, do you believe the citizens themselves were maybe were not even directly involved in what Hitler was doing were also killed by God?

And if you answer yes, then how do you think God would judge American citizens for 'allowing' their government to kill innocents abroad- even though citizens who are against the unlawful killing can do hardly anything to stop them?

Got answers?

Sorry for being so late. Was busy on the science forums.
A little knowledge of the history of WWII is useful here. Yes indeed, God helped the allies "destroy" Germany.
You can find direct answers to prayers made all through the war that changed the course of the war and led ultimately to the defeat of the Nazis. See Reese Howels book. See also Derek Prince's booklet on fasting.
In the one case God specifically instructed Howels to pray and have the student os the bible college pray that Hitler would deviate into Russia. Howels relates that God told him that by thus he would judge both the German army and the Russians.
They prayed - in less than a week Hitler made the crucially wrong decision to invade Russia where about 1/3rd of his army were destroyed.

Prince recounts his experience in the deserts of North Africa in the campaign against Rommel - one the greatest military minds of all time. The British army was at the time led by a general who drank too much and lacked discipline.

Prince asked God how to pray because they all knew a huge battle was looming. He was directed to pray that God would put his own man in leadership there.
In short the drunken general was replaced by Montgomery - a God fearing man who in very short time brought back discipline and thus morale to the troops.

The battle of El Alamein ensued in the following days.
After the battle Prince was sitting on his jeep waiting for radio news of the outcome and heard that the Allies had won a decisive victory. When he heard he says he also heard the Lord speak to him, "This is the results of your prayers".

In any case 100s if not 1000s of such stories could be told accounting how God intervened to overthrow the Nazis in answers to prayers. I know of many more myself. Some rather astounding! Including Patton's asking an army chaplain to pray for the whether so his troops could pass unnoticed and the answer came in the form of 'unexpected' thick fog all over the region.
All this to make sure Nazi Germany was destroyed.

That's usually how God deals with nations - as I pointed out from Jer 18. But he does so through people. And as John Wesley once said, "God does nothing in this world except in answer to prayer". A lot of truth to that.

As for children, well I already answered but apparently you didn't understand that I was already referring to very young children and up!

As for new borns, well that's another question.
War is hell. It always comes with more innocent victims than guilty ones.

God is sovereign and knows the end from the beginning. Death is not the end. Nor is it the ultimate punishment.

Some have posited that their deaths, so young, was actually a great mercy given them as to immediate admittance into heaven. I can understand why he would choose to take all these young ones and spare them a life of warfare and sufferings - which was the immediate future of all Israel in those regions.
Without a doubt had they been allowed to live they would have become deadly enemies of Israel once having learned of the destruction of their parents etc.

I don't have all the answers but I trust him. As Great Executive Magistrate of the universe He can do no wrong, no injustice, no evil. So whatever questions may remain we know he had perfect reasons.

Ask him.

As for

quote:

"Was Germany destroyed for killing so many people during the holocaust,

Certainly in part. But they also killed 10s of 1000s before it became a world war. The Nazis slaughtered as many as 100,000 handicapped, retarded etc. of their own people. Possibly worse, their evil doctrines led many more 10s of 1000s astray to the losing of their souls.

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...and if so, do you believe the citizens themselves were maybe were not even directly involved in what Hitler was doing were also killed by God?"

Those are the misfortunes of all warfare. But it is too much of a generalization that you present here. Who was responsible for the Nazis coming to power? Who allowed them to go on persecuting and killing in the name of Darwinian evolutionary principles which underlied their "artificial selection" holocaust? Who gave them their power knowing what their doctrines implied? None of this was "done in a corner" but everywhere in public before the war.

Many innocents die or suffer intensely in war. Whether a war be justified or not. Obviously Hitlers campaign ti inaugurate a 1000 year Reich by war was unjust and despicable.
But death and dying are what war brings. There is no other way in a fallen world where there is a power of evil behind all of these things (Nazis etc.) that is intensely opposed to mankind and God. The devil is a murderer.

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"And if you answer yes, then how do you think God would judge American citizens for 'allowing' their government to kill innocents abroad- even though citizens who are against the unlawful killing can do hardly anything to stop them? "

Your question is most understandable, yet you should much more be asking, "Why do men permit such things?" Not why God, but why we?! We humans are responsible.

If the Canaanites etc. had not been such perverse, self-abusing, child abusing and "ultra violence" loving devils you can be sure there never would have been any such campaigns.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Of course, even if we DO "accept this as truth and seek through the advocacy snd our own obedience to alleviate the consequences of such rebellion" we may still, and often shall, experience the same result.

God will still smite the faithful as well as the unfaithful.
It's completely at His choosing.

Actually, no, that isn't true. The result is always completely different. It is true we will all die, because that is the wage every man must pay for sin, but the faithful will ultimately experience grace and mercy, and the wicked will ultimately experience punishment and wrath. And God does not 'smite' the faithful.

quote:

we are reminded again and again throughout history (which God has graciously recorded for us in Scripture) that sin leads to death - children die as result of their parents creating societies based on willful rebellion against God, and the entire society suffers, even those who didn't create the original circumstances of that rebellion.

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accept this as truth and seek through the advocacy snd our own obedience to alleviate the consequences of such rebellion" we may still, and often shall, experience the same result.

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Maybe He doesn't smite the faithful, but I can vouchsafe that a stack of my patients and their parents feel fairly smited.
Depends how you define smiting I suppose.
But I think a two year old who has lost all four limbs and suffers brain damage because of a blood infection would probably define that as a pretty severe smiting. His parents have never once wavered in their faith though.

No-one's arguing that the ultimate experience in the after-life will be very different for the faithful and the unfaithful.
The OP - as I read it - is addressing more corporeal suffering and death.
And when you said

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I took it that you too were referring to this life rather than the next.

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I got the impression that you implied we could mitigate some of the earthly suffering doled out in retribution for that Original Sin by being faithful.

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From my perspective, it appears as though the faithful and the unfaithful suffer fairly evenly.

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And that Godfearing communities seem to suffer his righteous wrath on a similar footing to those that are more secular.

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I am absolutely positive they don't suffer nearly the same. There may be some very wicked people who don't suffer directly as the consequence of there actions, but there are none for whom suffering isn't associated with their actions.