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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 5:03:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
So here is my point. Were those who killed the Amalekites sinning when they killed? Are the people who killed by God's command in the Bible sinners for taking a life and because life begins at conception? Or did the fact that God ordered it remove those people from a sinful act? In other words did God command them to sin?
The act of taking life isn't unjust, but for the reasons it can be... Certainly following the commands of God is not sinful, regardless of the outwards appearance of the action itself. There are just reason to take life and there is murder.... And most of the time the line between the two is as wide as the Grand Canyon...
David killed Goliath, and he murdered Uriah... The former brought glory to God, the other shame...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 5:46:59 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
So here is my point. Were those who killed the Amalekites sinning when they killed? Are the people who killed by God's command in the Bible sinners for taking a life and because life begins at conception? Or did the fact that God ordered it remove those people from a sinful act? In other words did God command them to sin?
Did He? I really have to go back to what I have written here and on the other thread.....you are asking questions, but you do not reply to the Scriptures that have been referenced. Unless you are writing about some god that none of us know about, you should address the Scripture references that have been posted. Where did you hear about this God?
If you are referring to God of the 66 books of the Bible, then, you should base your questions on THAT God and not the one you are writing about, because they are NOT the same.
Do you believe in a literal translation of the Bible?
Do you believe that God allowed His Son to be crucified for our sins?
< Message edited by solarflare -- 3/17/2009 6:09:24 PM >
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 6:19:46 PM
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JStucki76
Posts: 293
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
I have posed this question elsewhere, but if God killed the babies in the OT then how can anyone claim that he wouldn't be doing it today through abortion? How can we claim to know God's higher purpose for us when there he is responsible for so much killing in the past? Will anyone conclusively claim that they know God is not using abortion for some higher purpose?
No matter what we do, God will bring good from it. But that doesn't make wrong right.
God specifically commanded the death of certain people and nations in the Bible. I have never heard of anyone having an abortion because God told them to. Legalized abortion began because people wanted to have sex without facing the consequences of that choice. Period.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 6:22:02 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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quote:
No matter what we do, God will bring good from it. But that doesn't make wrong right.
Uh...Scripture for that please?
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 6:58:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6390
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
No matter what we do, God will bring good from it. But that doesn't make wrong right.
Uh...Scripture for that please?
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 7:05:21 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Yes, I was sure that was the verse..however, there is a little 'catch' to the verse...as I have quoted above. ONLY those who are called according to his purpose.
quote:
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
That specifically refers to Joseph....not many people fit that profile.
sorry, there really is NO verse that substantiates your claim that no matter what we do, God 'fixes' it.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 7:12:42 PM
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Christfollower2000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
Concerning abortions God has spoken to us about it in Ps.139:13 stating life begins at conception. Then He stated in Ex. 20:13 that taking a life is sin. So the order is given to us by God in the Bible stating that abortion is sin.
So here is my point. Were those who killed the Amalekites sinning when they killed? Are the people who killed by God's command in the Bible sinners for taking a life and because life begins at conception? Or did the fact that God ordered it remove those people from a sinful act? In other words did God command them to sin?
Great questions! The key to the answer to this question is found in 1 Sam.15:2. "This is what the LORD Almighty says:" So because God commanded it, it was not a sin in this case to kill. In fact as you read the rest of the chapter you will read that King Saul sinned by not carrying out God`s command to kill all of the Amalekites. God stated in 1 Sam.15:11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from Me and has not carried out My instructions." The armies of Israel became God`s tool in destroying the Amalekites, and therefore in this case killing was not a sin. It was a sin to not kill and disobey God`s command to kill.
Today God`s command to us is just the opposite. Jesus commands us in Matt.5:44 "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
Has God done anything after the Bible was written that has led to the death of people? Or did he stop for some reason? If yes, how do you know. If no, why does he no longer command people to kill?
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 7:19:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6390
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Yes, I was sure that was the verse..however, there is a little 'catch' to the verse...as I have quoted above. ONLY those who are called according to his purpose.
That doesn't change the fact that ALL things work to the good... The "catch" you mention doesn't change the fact that ALL things work to the good, which equates to both good and bad things working out for those who love the Lord... It's stands to reason that for those who don't love the Lord, nothing really works out for them...
quote:
That specifically refers to Joseph....not many people fit that profile.
The premise is that God can and does use evil for good... He put an evil man into power(Pharaoh) to demonstrate to the world His power... Using evil for a good purpose...
quote:
sorry, there really is NO verse that substantiates your claim that no matter what we do, God 'fixes' it.
That wasn't my claim, or that of the person posting...
God clearly does and has used evil for good, and without a doubt both good and evil things work out for those who love the Lord...
You inserted the concept of God fixing it...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 7:21:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6390
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
Has God done anything after the Bible was written that has led to the death of people? Or did he stop for some reason? If yes, how do you know. If no, why does he no longer command people to kill?
He ordained the civil government to be His minster of wrath for those who do evil and the just punishment for murder is death, so yes indirectly He commands the state to put to death murderers...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 9:31:04 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 752
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
quote:
ORIGINAL: His_4_Ever
quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
I have posed this question elsewhere, but if God killed the babies in the OT then how can anyone claim that he wouldn't be doing it today through abortion? How can we claim to know God's higher purpose for us when there he is responsible for so much killing in the past? Will anyone conclusively claim that they know God is not using abortion for some higher purpose?
Well, for one thing God directly commanded the killing of babies and children in the OT. I have yet to hear anyone claim God directly commanded them to get an abortion today.
So are you saying that if someone claimed that God commanded them to get an abortion you would then accept this as evidence of God approving abortion? Has God done anything outside of what is written in the Bible? Or can we only be sure that he did those things in the Bible because they are written down? Christians have claimed all sorts of interesting things about God, for example that he supported segregation, hates gays, caused Hurricane Katrina to punish people...etc. Is one's claim that God made them do something evidence that God made them do it?
Yes, for who I am I question God's commands, though I might not understand them. When God commanded the killing of babies and children there was in fact a purpose behind it, as stated in previous post. Chances of God directly commanding someone to have an abortion is, NIL. I'm am sure God has done many things outside the bible we do not know about, but you see God is not required to give us an accounting of everything he does or why he does it.
As far people claiming God hates this or that, or did this or that because of that, I turn to the bible and look for answers. If someone says God commanded them to do something distasteful to most people just to justify what they did and God really did not directly command them to do it, I would be leary of lightening strikes.
_____________________________
I asked the wise man on the mountain what the secret of a long life was.....and now I would like to pass on his words of wisdom to you.
("Keep breathing as long as possible!")
SIH Perm. Blocked
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 9:39:35 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 752
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho (relocated from California 6 yrs ago)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
No matter what we do, God will bring good from it. But that doesn't make wrong right.
Uh...Scripture for that please?
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Alas, he finally changes his Avatar, now I won't hear House's sarcastic voice in my head when I read your posts, Tiger's way cooler anyway. 
I agree no matter how bad a situation, something always good comes out of it. We may not see the good right away. Especially if the bad thing hurt us deeply, but it will come and it won't necessarily be something big or major.
_____________________________
I asked the wise man on the mountain what the secret of a long life was.....and now I would like to pass on his words of wisdom to you.
("Keep breathing as long as possible!")
SIH Perm. Blocked
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 9:43:34 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 752
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho (relocated from California 6 yrs ago)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
Concerning abortions God has spoken to us about it in Ps.139:13 stating life begins at conception. Then He stated in Ex. 20:13 that taking a life is sin. So the order is given to us by God in the Bible stating that abortion is sin.
So here is my point. Were those who killed the Amalekites sinning when they killed? Are the people who killed by God's command in the Bible sinners for taking a life and because life begins at conception? Or did the fact that God ordered it remove those people from a sinful act? In other words did God command them to sin?
Great questions! The key to the answer to this question is found in 1 Sam.15:2. "This is what the LORD Almighty says:" So because God commanded it, it was not a sin in this case to kill. In fact as you read the rest of the chapter you will read that King Saul sinned by not carrying out God`s command to kill all of the Amalekites. God stated in 1 Sam.15:11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from Me and has not carried out My instructions." The armies of Israel became God`s tool in destroying the Amalekites, and therefore in this case killing was not a sin. It was a sin to not kill and disobey God`s command to kill.
Today God`s command to us is just the opposite. Jesus commands us in Matt.5:44 "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
Has God done anything after the Bible was written that has led to the death of people? Or did he stop for some reason? If yes, how do you know. If no, why does he no longer command people to kill?
You have to understand we are no longer in OT times. In the OT some things were necessary to establish the Hebrew Nation of God's chosen people. Once, Christ was born and the prophecy fulfilled there was no longer a need for such killing to continue.
_____________________________
I asked the wise man on the mountain what the secret of a long life was.....and now I would like to pass on his words of wisdom to you.
("Keep breathing as long as possible!")
SIH Perm. Blocked
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 9:47:56 PM
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Shrommer
Posts: 156
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Why did God let people live in the Bible, once people had disobeyed Him? After all, "We are His workmanship, created for good works ... which God prepared in advance for us to do".
When we do those works, there is no reason for us to boast, since we were only created by God to do those good works in the first place. When we forsake those good works, we abandon the whole purpose for which we were created. It only makes sense that God would suck the life out of us at that point.
The real mystery is in why he would permit us to live? Why does he show so much patience and mercy? Any of us, if we were in God's position, would be killing people left and right. God has chosen, not only to stay His hand, but to come to earth as one of us and die the death that we should be suffering. Incredible!
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/17/2009 9:50:04 PM
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Shrommer
Posts: 156
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Hey, a good on-line resource to delve into an issue like this is the Christian think tank, by Glenn Miller. He's got an entry called "How could a God of love order the massacre/assassination of the Canaanites?" qamorite.html
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/18/2009 11:19:48 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
That doesn't change the fact that ALL things work to the good... The "catch" you mention doesn't change the fact that ALL things work to the good, which equates to both good and bad things working out for those who love the Lord... It's stands to reason that for those who don't love the Lord, nothing really works out for them...
It is not my catch. It's God's catch. They only work together for the good of those who LOVE HIM AND WHO ARE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. How many people fall on their knees begging God to correct their mistakes and promising Him the world if He will only 'fix' it? Thousands...no wait, probably millions....
So many people use that verse like some kind of spiritual safety net, ignoring the part we play. To love God means to obey Him...
quote:
The premise is that God can and does use evil for good... He put an evil man into power(Pharaoh) to demonstrate to the world His power... Using evil for a good purpose...
Oh I agree. God can and absolutely does use evil for good....but how much evil goes on that is NOT God's will...THAT is where I start to have a problem with everyone jumping on board that verse and the other one and saying that God will 'fix' it. People have a free choice and God is not not some kind of super janitor.
quote:
You inserted the concept of God fixing it...
Oh, and I'm not allowed to do that for some reason?
I do not agree with Christfollower at all, but I also do not agree with the application of those verses in such a broad manner when Scripture does NOT back it up. To say that God will bring good out of a bad situation ignores the damage done. There is an awful lot of damage done...even by Christians, that should not happen in the first place.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/18/2009 11:26:26 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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Christfollower, do you believe that Jesus was crucified for our sins and that God raised Him up again?
I do not believe you do, unless you state otherwise. You are basically accusing God of murder. You cannot change the Word of God and if you do not believe that Word, then you are trying to make a point that no one who is a Christian will ever agree with. To say that millions of people do not believe the Bible to be literal, does not make it so.
So, are you going to state what you actually believe instead of calling out Christians to explain the God of the Bible whose actions you find disagreeable?
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/18/2009 11:47:49 AM
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JStucki76
Posts: 293
Joined: 12/14/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
That doesn't change the fact that ALL things work to the good... The "catch" you mention doesn't change the fact that ALL things work to the good, which equates to both good and bad things working out for those who love the Lord... It's stands to reason that for those who don't love the Lord, nothing really works out for them...
It is not my catch. It's God's catch. They only work together for the good of those who LOVE HIM AND WHO ARE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. How many people fall on their knees begging God to correct their mistakes and promising Him the world if He will only 'fix' it? Thousands...no wait, probably millions....
So many people use that verse like some kind of spiritual safety net, ignoring the part we play. To love God means to obey Him...
quote:
The premise is that God can and does use evil for good... He put an evil man into power(Pharaoh) to demonstrate to the world His power... Using evil for a good purpose...
Oh I agree. God can and absolutely does use evil for good....but how much evil goes on that is NOT God's will...THAT is where I start to have a problem with everyone jumping on board that verse and the other one and saying that God will 'fix' it. People have a free choice and God is not not some kind of super janitor.
quote:
You inserted the concept of God fixing it...
Oh, and I'm not allowed to do that for some reason?
I do not agree with Christfollower at all, but I also do not agree with the application of those verses in such a broad manner when Scripture does NOT back it up. To say that God will bring good out of a bad situation ignores the damage done. There is an awful lot of damage done...even by Christians, that should not happen in the first place.
Hey, I was actually the one who posted before you inserted the concept of God "fixing it," so I suppose I should defend my post...
God bringing good out of something and God "fixing" it are not the same thing. If I do something wrong, God can and will use it for good according to his plan. That doesn't mean that there aren't consequences for bad behavior, or that everyone will think that it turns out OK. My point was that evil is not a surprise to God. His plan is worked out with evil in mind, and his will will be accomplished in spite of it. I'm not saying he condones evil. Evil is evil and good is good. But I must believe that evil has a role to play in his plan, otherwise I must doubt his sovereignty. He wouldn't allow evil to exist "just because." If it works into his plan, then it is good for him to allow it, even though it is bad for me to do it.
David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then had her husband killed. Jesus was an eventual descendant of that union. God brought good from it; it was part of his plan. But he did not "fix" it. What David did was still wrong. Their baby still died.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/18/2009 11:49:58 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6390
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
It is not my catch. It's God's catch. They only work together for the good of those who LOVE HIM AND WHO ARE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. How many people fall on their knees begging God to correct their mistakes and promising Him the world if He will only 'fix' it? Thousands...no wait, probably millions....
So many people use that verse like some kind of spiritual safety net, ignoring the part we play. To love God means to obey Him...
The perversion of the verse by whomever doesn't change the fact that both good and bad things do in fact work for good...
quote:
Oh I agree.
Using your logic that means you ignore the damage done as well...
quote:
God can and absolutely does use evil for good....but how much evil goes on that is NOT God's will...THAT is where I start to have a problem with everyone jumping on board that verse and the other one and saying that God will 'fix' it.
Who is everyone?
quote:
Oh, and I'm not allowed to do that for some reason?
You can do as you please, and I as well I will do the same and point out you are creating an argument that is not really the issue at all and trying to use where it doesn't fit...
quote:
I do not agree with Christfollower at all, but I also do not agree with the application of those verses in such a broad manner when Scripture does NOT back it up.
Given what you have posted you discount what the verses say based on the actions of man, and goes to far as to attack the verses themselves...
quote:
To say that God will bring good out of a bad situation ignores the damage done.
So that means the verse in Genesis does that very thing, since that is exactly what is says... You are in fact charging God with something...
quote:
There is an awful lot of damage done...even by Christians, that should not happen in the first place.
And that has zero to do with the fact that God uses evil for good...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/18/2009 12:29:02 PM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1393
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From: Los Angeles
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Would Paul the Apostle be an example of God's glory showing through bad behavior..? Look at what he had done before his salvation, he murdered a lot of people. Although God called him and eventually used him mightily for His cause, Paul was still accountable for his past sins. He knew it, and accepted it for the glory was to be God's.
God took something (some one) that was bad, and turned it into good for His glory and for His purpose. If Paul had not been a fervent Pharisee before his salvation, would he have been as mighty a tool for the Lord..?
Bottomline, for all the bad that had taken place, God was able to turn it around for His Good Pleasure.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/18/2009 2:09:24 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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quote:
God bringing good out of something and God "fixing" it are not the same thing. If I do something wrong, God can and will use it for good according to his plan. That doesn't mean that there aren't consequences for bad behavior, or that everyone will think that it turns out OK. My point was that evil is not a surprise to God. His plan is worked out with evil in mind, and his will will be accomplished in spite of it. I'm not saying he condones evil. Evil is evil and good is good. But I must believe that evil has a role to play in his plan, otherwise I must doubt his sovereignty. He wouldn't allow evil to exist "just because." If it works into his plan, then it is good for him to allow it, even though it is bad for me to do it.
David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then had her husband killed. Jesus was an eventual descendant of that union. God brought good from it; it was part of his plan. But he did not "fix" it. What David did was still wrong. Their baby still died.
I basically agree with what you wrote here....it is the application of the verse to evil that I disagree with.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
In this thread, Christfollower2000 wants to know "why did God people kill people in the Bible".........how does that verse even begin to apply to the question? I think the topic has gotten somewhat off track and does not answer the question at all. Continue reading v. 29 and you will see that
Paul is addressing Christians...those God foreknew...so how does that verse apply to those killed in the OT?
God can bring good out of what someone meant for evil. No disagreement there, so no need to keep telling me that as if it was in dispute.
So, is the answer to the OP 'God killed everyone off because he works for the good of those who love him?" That, does not make a whole lot of sense. And if you insert v.29 into that, it makes even less sense. Hope you understand my point now. I never had any doubt God can bring good out of evil. That, is so. However, that is not the reason the Israelites were instructed to slaughter everyone in the land when they went in.
And is also does not address follower2000's claims that God would not do such things.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/18/2009 2:12:56 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Would Paul the Apostle be an example of God's glory showing through bad behavior..? Look at what he had done before his salvation, he murdered a lot of people. Although God called him and eventually used him mightily for His cause, Paul was still accountable for his past sins. He knew it, and accepted it for the glory was to be God's.
God took something (some one) that was bad, and turned it into good for His glory and for His purpose. If Paul had not been a fervent Pharisee before his salvation, would he have been as mighty a tool for the Lord..?
Bottomline, for all the bad that had taken place, God was able to turn it around for His Good Pleasure.
Matthew
Right. I agree. But it does not answer the OP which is my point. Thanks
Actually, Paul is an excellent example of God working out good from a bad situation.
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RE: Why did God kill people in the Bible? - 3/19/2009 3:08:07 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6390
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
I basically agree with what you wrote here....it is the application of the verse to evil that I disagree with.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
In this thread, Christfollower2000 wants to know "why did God people kill people in the Bible".........how does that verse even begin to apply to the question?
Let go back the the start of our exchange before we go to far down the rabbit hole...
Someone posted...
No matter what we do, God will bring good from it. But that doesn't make wrong right.
You replied....
Uh...Scripture for that please?
I posted...
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
quote:
I think the topic has gotten somewhat off track and does not answer the question at all.
Continue reading v. 29 and you will see that Paul is addressing Christians...those God foreknew...so how does that verse apply to those killed in the OT?
It doesn't nor was I using it to support the notion... Let me refer you again to the start of our exchange...
quote:
God can bring good out of what someone meant for evil. No disagreement there, so no need to keep telling me that as if it was in dispute.
You did say the following in regards to that...
To say that God will bring good out of a bad situation ignores the damage done.
That specifically refers to Joseph....not many people fit that profile.
quote:
So, is the answer to the OP 'God killed everyone off because he works for the good of those who love him?"
Not as far as I am concerned... You ask for scripture regarding the following statement...
No matter what we do, God will bring good from it. But that doesn't make wrong right.
and I posted the verses that support the premise that God uses evil for good...
quote:
That, does not make a whole lot of sense. And if you insert v.29 into that, it makes even less sense. Hope you understand my point now.
It doesn't make any sense to attach what I am posting to someone else premise...
quote:
I never had any doubt God can bring good out of evil. That, is so. However, that is not the reason the Israelites were instructed to slaughter everyone in the land when they went in.
It can't be a reason for...
quote:
And is also does not address follower2000's claims that God would not do such things.
Of course not, it was never intended to address his/her claim... It was posted to support the truth that God uses evil for good...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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