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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/12/2009 5:57:32 AM
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justpassinby
Posts: 785
Joined: 3/16/2009
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quote:
Hmm, the same one who says hell is not eternal believes the DaVinci Code is based on fact. It is not looking good.
I'm not sure what you specifically mean. Besides, that's a different subject.
_____________________________
Link to Genealogy of Christ
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/12/2009 6:17:26 AM
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JesusIsLordandSavior
Posts: 22
Joined: 11/11/2006
Status: offline
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Hi,
Look at the following scriptures to see what the Bible says about the lake of fire. In verse Rev 20:10 it states "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Does verse 10 sound like one is tormented or destroyed? does it sound like life just ceases or does it sound like it continues forever and ever? Verse 15 states "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."This is not my opinion but it is a fact.
God gives us all a choice to either by faith receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior and have everlasting life or reject him and be thrown in to the lake of fire. If you look at John 3:16 it states For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Verse 17 states "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world"but that the world through him might be saved.
and verse 18 states "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " so we all have a choice to make. Looking again at verse 16 it shows that this was done because God so loved the world. Because of his love he gives us a choice to either recieve or reject him and because of his love he gave us all of the information that we need in the BIBLE.The good news is that anyone who Believeth in him is not condemned but the bad news is that if one currently does not belive in him one is all ready condemned and if one dies without believing in him one will be cast in to the lake of fire and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus. Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/12/2009 11:27:58 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
I am aware of that,but thanks for avoiding this passage:
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt 25:46 (ASV)
You see,this verse you managed to avoid is an interesting one.The Greek word for "eternal" in both cases is "aionios"
This word is a simple verse,it can only mean this:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Like I said,if you have a problem with an eternal hell you should have a problem with an eternal heaven.This should end this discussion,at least it would for a biblical person.But am I wrong to assume that you might continue to "have a problem with it"?
I'm not avoiding that passage. That is the very passage that your whole hell doctrine comes from, and you are the first one I have come across that claims that "aionios" means "eternal", not "age" That is all dealt with here and here as I've already pointed out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
I am aware of that,but thanks for avoiding this passage:
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt 25:46 (ASV)
You see,this verse you managed to avoid is an interesting one.The Greek word for "eternal" in both cases is "aionios"
This word is a simple verse,it can only mean this:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Like I said,if you have a problem with an eternal hell you should have a problem with an eternal heaven.This should end this discussion,at least it would for a biblical person.But am I wrong to assume that you might continue to "have a problem with it"?
I'm not avoiding that passage. That is the very passage that your whole hell doctrine comes from, and you are the first one I have come across that claims that "aionios" means "eternal", not "age" That is all dealt with here and here as I've already pointed out.
Sigh..I read some of the other links you posted earlier,it was only fair since I posted a video for you to understand the the passage in Peter.But I am sure you are able to speak for yourself right?
And yeah,aiōnios cannot mean age,look it up for yourself.The word you are looking for is aiōn,not the same word.
You still haven't answered my question,and I mean you not some other person.If "aiōnios" destruction is not eternal,then neither is aiōnios life.
You can't pick and choose what to expect in the bible,annihilationism is comfortable for those who don't want to accept the clear teaching of eternal damnation in the bible,but it is very wrong.
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/12/2009 11:30:20 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
I have another Scripture for you to explain, Sammy S:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
How to you translate world there?
Here is another link that clears up the "eternity/age" issue, if you're willing to consider and examine it:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html
How would you translate this:
The multitude therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from the dead, bare witness. 18 For this cause also the multitude went and met him, for that they heard that he had done this sign. 19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Behold how ye prevail nothing: lo, the world is gone after him.
John 12:17-19 (ASV)
Did The Pharisees mean every single person in the world went after Him?Of course not,it's a figure of speech.
And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins
Matt 1:21 (ASV)
which type of people does that the NT writers refer to as God's people?The elect.
But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
1 Peter 2:9-10 (ASV)
Or do you disagree with scripture?
I can see there is no way I'm going to get you to see it from my perspective, because you pick and choose when you want to translate "world" or "all" as inclusive or as "a figure of speech"
Why don't you respond to my points for once instead stunts like this?If I'm wrong,then you should have no problem using scripture to prove me wrong,correct?
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/13/2009 1:22:12 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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Sammy_S,
The whole concept of hell not being eternal is actually pretty new to me, so I'm sorry if I haven't thoroughly thought things through yet. I don't know the answer to all of your questions. I'm not an authority on the subject, especially since I have never died and found out for a fact what happens in the end. My guess is you haven't either 
I said the concept is new to me, but not to those who have spent years and years studying, searching the Word. That is why I posted a link. As for whether life is eternal, L Ray Smith had an answer for that. I believe it had to do with when Jesus said, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30) (interesting that He says we can have "eternal" life in two different ages) I take this to mean that the current age is this life on earth, the age to come is after death, and there may be any number of ages after that. I don't know how it all works out. But that doesn't mean that Mr. Smith is wrong. Like I said, this is pretty new to me, and I haven't thoroughly thought out all the implications, but Mr Smith, and others who believe like him, have. And I have read their writings and find them to be sound and logical. As for what I think about life being everlasting without end, I had the same objection that you have at first.
As for "aionios", it says here that "aionios" is an adjective of the noun "aion." and that "aion" means "age", according to the Greek of the time of Jesus. I admit I have not used the most scholarly sources, and considering the importance of the matter, I should have searched that out better before posting things so boldly. Perhaps it was wrong of me to put so much trust in people without a bunch of letters behind their names, whom I don't know personally. I guess I just got excited by learning that maybe it's possible that people are not burning forever in torment. I would be interested in knowing what your sources are.
I know you shake your head at me holding on to the belief that hell is not eternal, yet life is eternal. I can't exactly back that up right now but I know that L Ray Smith understands it a lot better than me and he seems to believe that it's not "either or" as you would think. I will have to look into it more.
I'm sorry I may have lost track of the other questions you had for me, or some of them, I just grew weary of trying to answer to your satisfaction. I will have to get back to you later. Right now my daughter is waiting for me to read to her and my husband is waiting to watch a movie, and frankly, I'm very tired of arguing over this and I don't care much if you "win". I really don't want to go back to the despair of believing that such a place of eternal suffering exists. From now on, I will just keep my unpopular belief to myself.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/16/2009 3:38:42 AM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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WandringLamb
Sorry it took me so long to respond.
quote:
I'm not an authority on the subject, especially since I have never died and found out for a fact what happens in the end. My guess is you haven't either
How can you say such a thing if you trust the bible as God's word?The bible is very clear on this matter,I for one know for a fact what "happens in the end" because i believe what the bible teaches.
quote:
As for whether life is eternal, L Ray Smith had an answer for that. I believe it had to do with when Jesus said, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30) (interesting that He says we can have "eternal" life in two different ages) I take this to mean that the current age is this life on earth, the age to come is after death, and there may be any number of ages after that. I don't know how it all works out. But that doesn't mean that Mr. Smith is wrong.
WOW!I am almost speechless to tell you the truth.This is a very very poor interpretation of this very simple passage.Where do you get the idea there may be other "ages"??There is nothing in the passage about that.The bible is clear that we live,we die,we go to heaven or hell,done.To claim that there may be other ages after that is quite possibly heresy.The fact that you don't know "how it all works out" should have given you a clue that your interpretation is wrong.
There is nothing in this passage about "eternal life in two different ages".Christ is simply saying that those who leave the their possessions and people for Him will be blessed with something(spiritual gifts,Ephesians 1:3) a "hundred times" more valuable than the possessions and people they left behind,their blessings will occur in "this present age"(life on earth) and in the next life(Heaven).
quote:
Like I said, this is pretty new to me, and I haven't thoroughly thought out all the implications, but Mr Smith, and others who believe like him, have. And I have read their writings and find them to be sound and logical. As for what I think about life being everlasting without end, I had the same objection that you have at first.
First of all,Mr.Smith is a heretic.He denies the trinity,that should have sent off your alarms.Secondly,you are better off reading the bible,not the opinions of heretics.
quote:
As for "aionios", it says here that "aionios" is an adjective of the noun "aion." and that "aion" means "age", according to the Greek of the time of Jesus. I admit I have not used the most scholarly sources, and considering the importance of the matter, I should have searched that out better before posting things so boldly. Perhaps it was wrong of me to put so much trust in people without a bunch of letters behind their names, whom I don't know personally. I guess I just got excited by learning that maybe it's possible that people are not burning forever in torment. I would be interested in knowing what your sources are.
When you don't want to believe something,you will find ways to deny it.It's not new,the bible is clear that everyone knows there is a God(Romans 1),but some (atheists) suppress the truth because they don't want to believe it.You know why?Because a Holy God who demands justice for sin is a terrifying thing to consider,it is better in their eyes to act as if he doesn't exist.They accept lies(evolution) as truth and reject the truth(God) as lies.
I know you don't want to believe in an eternal hell,but you are allowing what you want to be true to replace the truth of God's word,be very careful.How far will it go?Will you start to deny hell altogether?You would be surprised to know how often that happens.
As for your question,there you go: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G166
It's "strong" and "Vine's Dictionary",there is no way you can deny that.
quote:
I know you shake your head at me holding on to the belief that hell is not eternal, yet life is eternal. I can't exactly back that up right now but I know that L Ray Smith understands it a lot better than me and he seems to believe that it's not "either or" as you would think. I will have to look into it more.
As I mentioned already,Mr.Smith is a heretic.Secondly,yes I do shake my head at the thought that one can believe in an eternal heaven but reject an eternal hell.It's inconsistent,you cannot prove it with the scriptures,and you have made it clear that you want to believe in an eternal heaven because that is comforting,but you reject an eternal hell because that's terrifying.So again,you are inconsistent,you cannot support your views with scripture and you made it clear that you don't want to believe in an eternal hell,don't you think you are wrong?
quote:
I really don't want to go back to the despair of believing that such a place of eternal suffering exists. From now on, I will just keep my unpopular belief to myself.
A man was about to get hit by a truck,instead of trying to avoid it,he closed his eyes and imagined a different scenario,he never opened his eyes again.
Yes,you have it clear that, your feelings>God's word.Maybe the Lord should seek your advice on matters like this.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?-jeremiah 17:9
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/17/2009 2:12:32 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
WandringLamb
Sorry it took me so long to respond.
quote:
I'm not an authority on the subject, especially since I have never died and found out for a fact what happens in the end. My guess is you haven't either
How can you say such a thing if you trust the bible as God's word?The bible is very clear on this matter,I for one know for a fact what "happens in the end" because i believe what the bible teaches.
quote:
As for whether life is eternal, L Ray Smith had an answer for that. I believe it had to do with when Jesus said, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30) (interesting that He says we can have "eternal" life in two different ages) I take this to mean that the current age is this life on earth, the age to come is after death, and there may be any number of ages after that. I don't know how it all works out. But that doesn't mean that Mr. Smith is wrong.
WOW!I am almost speechless to tell you the truth.This is a very very poor interpretation of this very simple passage.Where do you get the idea there may be other "ages"??There is nothing in the passage about that.The bible is clear that we live,we die,we go to heaven or hell,done.To claim that there may be other ages after that is quite possibly heresy.The fact that you don't know "how it all works out" should have given you a clue that your interpretation is wrong.
There is nothing in this passage about "eternal life in two different ages".Christ is simply saying that those who leave the their possessions and people for Him will be blessed with something(spiritual gifts,Ephesians 1:3) a "hundred times" more valuable than the possessions and people they left behind,their blessings will occur in "this present age"(life on earth) and in the next life(Heaven).
quote:
Like I said, this is pretty new to me, and I haven't thoroughly thought out all the implications, but Mr Smith, and others who believe like him, have. And I have read their writings and find them to be sound and logical. As for what I think about life being everlasting without end, I had the same objection that you have at first.
First of all,Mr.Smith is a heretic.He denies the trinity,that should have sent off your alarms.Secondly,you are better off reading the bible,not the opinions of heretics.
quote:
As for "aionios", it says here that "aionios" is an adjective of the noun "aion." and that "aion" means "age", according to the Greek of the time of Jesus. I admit I have not used the most scholarly sources, and considering the importance of the matter, I should have searched that out better before posting things so boldly. Perhaps it was wrong of me to put so much trust in people without a bunch of letters behind their names, whom I don't know personally. I guess I just got excited by learning that maybe it's possible that people are not burning forever in torment. I would be interested in knowing what your sources are.
When you don't want to believe something,you will find ways to deny it.It's not new,the bible is clear that everyone knows there is a God(Romans 1),but some (atheists) suppress the truth because they don't want to believe it.You know why?Because a Holy God who demands justice for sin is a terrifying thing to consider,it is better in their eyes to act as if he doesn't exist.They accept lies(evolution) as truth and reject the truth(God) as lies.
I know you don't want to believe in an eternal hell,but you are allowing what you want to be true to replace the truth of God's word,be very careful.How far will it go?Will you start to deny hell altogether?You would be surprised to know how often that happens.
As for your question,there you go: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G166
It's "strong" and "Vine's Dictionary",there is no way you can deny that.
quote:
I know you shake your head at me holding on to the belief that hell is not eternal, yet life is eternal. I can't exactly back that up right now but I know that L Ray Smith understands it a lot better than me and he seems to believe that it's not "either or" as you would think. I will have to look into it more.
As I mentioned already,Mr.Smith is a heretic.Secondly,yes I do shake my head at the thought that one can believe in an eternal heaven but reject an eternal hell.It's inconsistent,you cannot prove it with the scriptures,and you have made it clear that you want to believe in an eternal heaven because that is comforting,but you reject an eternal hell because that's terrifying.So again,you are inconsistent,you cannot support your views with scripture and you made it clear that you don't want to believe in an eternal hell,don't you think you are wrong?
quote:
I really don't want to go back to the despair of believing that such a place of eternal suffering exists. From now on, I will just keep my unpopular belief to myself.
A man was about to get hit by a truck,instead of trying to avoid it,he closed his eyes and imagined a different scenario,he never opened his eyes again.
Yes,you have it clear that, your feelings>God's word.Maybe the Lord should seek your advice on matters like this.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?-jeremiah 17:9
I would appreciate it if you stopped assaulting my character and saying things about me that are not true.
As expected, you immediately label Mr. Smith as a heretic and probably haven't even examined what he wrote.
You tell me to read the Word of God...I have and I do. And so has Mr. Smith...if you'd read what he wrote, you would see his conclusions are all from careful study of the Word.
I will tell you again: I do not put my feelings above God's Word. It is insulting that you would continue to say that to me. I have spent much of my life believing God's Word above what I feel and I did not make up this belief about hell based on feelings.
I am done with this post. As I said before, I do not wish to debate this topic anymore. Don't worry about me spreading this "heresy" because, as I said, I plan to keep to myself on this matter from now on. I am just replying to you now, trying to refrain from allowing feelings to take precedence over courtesy.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/17/2009 1:16:10 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
WandringLamb
Sorry it took me so long to respond.
quote:
I'm not an authority on the subject, especially since I have never died and found out for a fact what happens in the end. My guess is you haven't either
How can you say such a thing if you trust the bible as God's word?The bible is very clear on this matter,I for one know for a fact what "happens in the end" because i believe what the bible teaches.
quote:
As for whether life is eternal, L Ray Smith had an answer for that. I believe it had to do with when Jesus said, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life." (Mark 10:29-30) (interesting that He says we can have "eternal" life in two different ages) I take this to mean that the current age is this life on earth, the age to come is after death, and there may be any number of ages after that. I don't know how it all works out. But that doesn't mean that Mr. Smith is wrong.
WOW!I am almost speechless to tell you the truth.This is a very very poor interpretation of this very simple passage.Where do you get the idea there may be other "ages"??There is nothing in the passage about that.The bible is clear that we live,we die,we go to heaven or hell,done.To claim that there may be other ages after that is quite possibly heresy.The fact that you don't know "how it all works out" should have given you a clue that your interpretation is wrong.
There is nothing in this passage about "eternal life in two different ages".Christ is simply saying that those who leave the their possessions and people for Him will be blessed with something(spiritual gifts,Ephesians 1:3) a "hundred times" more valuable than the possessions and people they left behind,their blessings will occur in "this present age"(life on earth) and in the next life(Heaven).
quote:
Like I said, this is pretty new to me, and I haven't thoroughly thought out all the implications, but Mr Smith, and others who believe like him, have. And I have read their writings and find them to be sound and logical. As for what I think about life being everlasting without end, I had the same objection that you have at first.
First of all,Mr.Smith is a heretic.He denies the trinity,that should have sent off your alarms.Secondly,you are better off reading the bible,not the opinions of heretics.
quote:
As for "aionios", it says here that "aionios" is an adjective of the noun "aion." and that "aion" means "age", according to the Greek of the time of Jesus. I admit I have not used the most scholarly sources, and considering the importance of the matter, I should have searched that out better before posting things so boldly. Perhaps it was wrong of me to put so much trust in people without a bunch of letters behind their names, whom I don't know personally. I guess I just got excited by learning that maybe it's possible that people are not burning forever in torment. I would be interested in knowing what your sources are.
When you don't want to believe something,you will find ways to deny it.It's not new,the bible is clear that everyone knows there is a God(Romans 1),but some (atheists) suppress the truth because they don't want to believe it.You know why?Because a Holy God who demands justice for sin is a terrifying thing to consider,it is better in their eyes to act as if he doesn't exist.They accept lies(evolution) as truth and reject the truth(God) as lies.
I know you don't want to believe in an eternal hell,but you are allowing what you want to be true to replace the truth of God's word,be very careful.How far will it go?Will you start to deny hell altogether?You would be surprised to know how often that happens.
As for your question,there you go: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G166
It's "strong" and "Vine's Dictionary",there is no way you can deny that.
quote:
I know you shake your head at me holding on to the belief that hell is not eternal, yet life is eternal. I can't exactly back that up right now but I know that L Ray Smith understands it a lot better than me and he seems to believe that it's not "either or" as you would think. I will have to look into it more.
As I mentioned already,Mr.Smith is a heretic.Secondly,yes I do shake my head at the thought that one can believe in an eternal heaven but reject an eternal hell.It's inconsistent,you cannot prove it with the scriptures,and you have made it clear that you want to believe in an eternal heaven because that is comforting,but you reject an eternal hell because that's terrifying.So again,you are inconsistent,you cannot support your views with scripture and you made it clear that you don't want to believe in an eternal hell,don't you think you are wrong?
quote:
I really don't want to go back to the despair of believing that such a place of eternal suffering exists. From now on, I will just keep my unpopular belief to myself.
A man was about to get hit by a truck,instead of trying to avoid it,he closed his eyes and imagined a different scenario,he never opened his eyes again.
Yes,you have it clear that, your feelings>God's word.Maybe the Lord should seek your advice on matters like this.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?-jeremiah 17:9
I would appreciate it if you stopped assaulting my character and saying things about me that are not true.
As expected, you immediately label Mr. Smith as a heretic and probably haven't even examined what he wrote.
You tell me to read the Word of God...I have and I do. And so has Mr. Smith...if you'd read what he wrote, you would see his conclusions are all from careful study of the Word.
I will tell you again: I do not put my feelings above God's Word. It is insulting that you would continue to say that to me. I have spent much of my life believing God's Word above what I feel and I did not make up this belief about hell based on feelings.
I am done with this post. As I said before, I do not wish to debate this topic anymore. Don't worry about me spreading this "heresy" because, as I said, I plan to keep to myself on this matter from now on. I am just replying to you now, trying to refrain from allowing feelings to take precedence over courtesy.
Didn't you say you don't want to believe in an eternal hell?That is putting your feelings above God's word.
And I actually have read a lot of stuff from Mr.Smith,he is a heretic.He denies the Trinity.I have proved to you that there is an eternal hell by using the scriptures and giving you a clear definition of the word translated as "eternal".Feel free to refuse to believe it if you want.
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/17/2009 4:30:30 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
Didn't you say you don't want to believe in an eternal hell?
Yes, but I did not say that is the reason I don't believe in it. You keep stating that I decided to stop believing God's Word because my feelings disagree with it, and that is not true. That would be ludicris, in fact. I never stopped believing the Scriptures are God's Word, and I never latched on to a belief because I put my feelings above His Word. It was only after I saw that it is possible that God's Word actually does not teach an eternal hell, that I allowed myself to believe it. I did make the mistake, however, of not doing enough research.
quote:
And I actually have read a lot of stuff from Mr.Smith,he is a heretic.He denies the Trinity.I have proved to you that there is an eternal hell by using the scriptures and giving you a clear definition of the word translated as "eternal".Feel free to refuse to believe it if you want.
Nothing has been proven here. It is all a matter of how a word is translated.
When I started reading Mr. Smith's website, it was out of curiosity; I accidentally came across it. I was sure he was dead wrong because he went against what I had been taught and believed all my life. I wanted to examine what he wrote and understand why/how he was wrong. But I had a flicker of hope that maybe he was right. Still, I was not about to just accept what he said based on my feelings. As I've thought about it more, I've realized I've made a few mistakes. One: not doing the research myself (trusting that his sources are valid), and two: being vocal about my belief here on this website. That is why, from now on, I plan to refrain from mentioning this issue, unless I see more convincing evidence that what Mr. Smith says is, in fact, true. As for what I believe, perhaps my belief is not as strong as it was, but I am still open to the possibility that Mr. Smith is correct. I don't think I should be ostracized because of this.
As for the whole trinity thing, to me that is just semantics. Mr. Smith agrees: The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and there is only one God. He just disagrees as to how to teach this Truth. Instead of seeing God as three different persons, he sees the Holy Spirit as simply God's Spirit, just like you and I have spirits. I see nothing in this that contradicts the bible. I do, however, see him refuting a made-up construct that he sees as potentially harmful. My opinion is that the doctrine of the trinity is not necessarily harmful, but it can become an unneccessary stumbling block for people. That's all I will say in this thread on the matter. As you know, I have a thread to discuss this issue.
I hope that, with that, we can be done with this subject.
But one thing I would like to say: I think other posters would agree with me that it is much easier to read posts that have spaces after punctuation marks.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/17/2009 11:43:22 PM
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Shrommer
Posts: 156
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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I like Reason for God book by Tim Keller. In it he quotes C.S. Lewis, "The door to hell is locked from the inside."
These are people who have decided not to receive God's love, and who would not be happy in God's presence. By removing themselves from God's presence, there are put in a vacuum where God's goodness does not exist. They are not begging to get into God's presence, even though they might be begging to have a drink of water. They are not loving God and wishing they could be with Him; instead they are critical of God, blaming Him for not being better towards them or for not letting them be on the throne.
Another thought is that "forever" sounds like time going on indefinitely, but my understanding of time is that it will one day come to an end. In eternity, we exist outside of time. This is beyond our comprehension, but I don't think it will be like people in hell watching a clock and wanting the pain to end the next minute; I think it will be more like a state of existence which they chose by free will while they were in time, and in hell they will be not moved to change that free will decision.
Hell is the best that God has to offer them. He will not destroy them, but neither will they be forced to come into the home of a person they despise, even though life is much better there. God respects their decision, and loves them enough to give them free will. They go on thinking they should be God, much the way Satan does, resentful towards their maker, but thinking that to be with God would be the worse outcome. They will think they are in the best place they can be.
I hope maybe this helps. The demons know the truth, yet they choose to be separated from God. Even if everyone could know the reality of hell and of the salvation message/story, this doesn't mean that everyone would come into God's presence to escape hell. It is sort of a situation where God lets them believe a delusion (II Thes. 2:11) "God will send them strong delusion that they should believe the lie", but He will do this in His mercy, not out of cruelty.
II Thes. 1:9 speaks of everlasting punishment, not everlasting torment.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/18/2009 10:34:43 AM
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Psalm30
Posts: 30
Joined: 2/8/2006
From: northern california
Status: offline
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God bless Shrommer,
testimonies of folks that have experienced the after life have said that the senses are ENHANCED and the mind just knows knows knows and knows that there is no time there and it is FOREVER.
This website has testimonies of folks around the world that experienced heaven/hell and its amazing how theyre descriptions of heaven/hell is all the same. very scary.
www.spiritlessons.com
_____________________________
UCDavis 05
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/18/2009 11:21:45 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5589
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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Doesn't the existence of hell directly coincide with the reason that Jesus atoned for our sins and saved us from God's wrath?
If hell doesn't exist, then what's the point?
_____________________________
Rest assured, dear friends, that where your pleasure is, there your heart is.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/19/2009 9:36:35 AM
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singpeace
Posts: 81
Joined: 9/19/2009
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Dan, you are right. It is the second death when people actually go to hell.
On the idea that God torments and burns people with hell forever; I used to wonder about that, too, even as a Christian.
It was a middle-school science class that gave me my light-bulb moment. I was working with a special needs child, and we were in his science class. All I remember now is that we learned that this thing was simply the opposite of this other thing.... and that's all it was... the absence of the other.
But to be totally and utterly absent from God... I mean something even the vilest criminal sinner has never experienced in his worst moments... for the to be no more God, no more Jesus, no more heaven; as though it all just disappeared. Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth? The torment? The inability to find relief in death because death is not death of the body but of the spirit.
The scriptures tell us that God created hell for Satan and his angels, not man. Man was never intended to go there... it's like choosing to stay in jail when someone has bailed you out. The important thing to note, in my opinion, is that the prisoner knows the bail has been paid and chill refuses the gift.
Anyway, it's hard to explain, but ever since I saw that bit of logic, I've had no more confusion about it. Those in hell are those who KNEW (more than once, in my opinion) they were choosing a spiritual death over eternal life.
To me, hell is not God's way
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus. Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
_____________________________
Psalm 123:1 Unto You do I lift up my eyes, O You Who are enthroned in heaven.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/22/2009 2:48:04 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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I've been thinking about sharing some things at a personal level, as the original poster, Dan, has. I just have to formulate my thoughts into coherent words.
I just hope this thread can be about sharing one's feelings and struggles with what has been taught in church, rather than a debate with dogmatic assertions, including calling people heretics. Heretics are those who teach others false doctrine. I am not teaching anyone what I have begun to suspect about hell, although I guess I have been too bold in asserting those beliefs on this thread. I admit I have been guilty of being dogmatic and defensive about those beliefs earlier in this thread. I hope to humbly share my subjective experience and my inability to find integrity between God's attributes and the well accepted teaching about hell. I would like to share how I find the teaching of eternal hell to be illogical, and how I found this teaching to be oppressive and not fruit-bearing in my own personal life. I would like to smply share and not be judged. I believe there is freedom to disagree about this subject. I believe that the aspects of the teaching about hell which I disagree with are not essentials of the christian faith. Also, I looked up the Apostle's Creed, which posters in this forum are supposed to agree with, and I did not find it stated in there that one must believe that hell is eternal.
Hopefully I will have the courage to share more later....
< Message edited by WanderingLamb -- 10/22/2009 3:08:27 PM >
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/22/2009 7:24:27 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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WanderingLamb,
Without adding to the Word, as many people do to create their hell doctrines, the Bible says certain things about hell.
First, Sheol, Gehenna, and the Lake of fire are three different things.
"Gehenna" simply means "The Valley of Hinnom". You can go to Jerusalem and walk through it today. It was once a garbage dump for Jerusalem. It had incinerator fires going around the clock and it's where the stray animals would have lived to pick through the scraps from the city. Jesus, in some of His teachings, was saying "Don't throw your life away". Also, for one to be thrown in an incinerator after death rather than being given a proper burial was a great disgrace. I want do know how "garbage dump" ever became "place of eternal conscious torment" in translations.
If you want to cite verses like Mark 9:43-44, talking about the unquenchable fire where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched, you must understand first that Christ quoted from the Old Testament often... in this case from Isaiah 66:24 "Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be qunched; and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." The fire and worms are literally feeding on carcasses in this verse (read the chapter if you need to)... just as they would be in the garbage dump.
A lot of these verses speak of an "unquenchable fire". This is spoken of in the Old Testament too, though nobody seems to want to compare. In Jeremiah 7:20, Jeremiah 17:27, and Ezekiel 20:47-48, we see illustrations of unquenchable fires that eventually go out... so "unquenchable" must not mean "will never stop" but something more along the lines of "won't stop until its purpose is fulfilled".
The Lake of Fire is unoccupied now. It's prepared for three specific entities... The devil, the beast, and the false prophet. It is also said to be the method of the second death... the destruction of the unsaved. I understand the words "destroy," "perish," and "death," to mean final things. Somehow, people try to twist them into meaning ongoing things. I could be wrong about this... but it seems to make more sense to me than other interpretations I've heard. Read and pray about it for yourself, I'd suggest.
Some people try and use the parable of the rich man in Luke 16 as proof... and even claim it's not a parable! Tell me, if it's a true account, salvation for the poor man was possible without the death of Christ, no? Also, it seems salvation is simply based on one's wealth, rather than anything else. Third, there's no mention of eternity in this passage at all.
If I'm wrong about this, please tell me how. I don't want to be going on the wrong thing here, but this makes a bit more sense to me than verses used to prove the Dantean hell.
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/23/2009 3:00:55 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 269
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I do not want anyone to go to hell. I do not truly understand why God punishes people who reject Him that way. However, He says it so I believe it. I think we can never truly understand sin. God hates sin a lot more than we do. He made a way out through His Son Christ and that is Who I am trusting for my salvation and deliverence from sin and the payment of sin. I am glad He made a way out.
_____________________________
Some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell; I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell."
- C.L. Studd
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/29/2009 4:19:27 AM
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carebearstare
Posts: 23
Joined: 10/9/2009
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From my unbelievably extensive collections of readings and years and years of wise understandings...
no but seriously, I had some issues in my heart when I started really considering God and His plan too. it helped a little when i read lee strobel's short thoughts on it in his 'case for christ'. but 'the great divorce' by c s lewis really spoke to me. go read it. not that i think that's exactly what will happen when we die. it's fiction. but he's very good at using fiction to get general ideas across in a way that we can follow with our human outlook and emotions. i think he is good at getting the question of 'what is time, really' on the table too in his writings, wrt the whole 'eternal vs not' thing...
i don't know ... i guess i just think that we have to try to remember that everything we know and understand and dream and imagine is within our current construct. the idea of eternity is kinda the best we can do when trying to consider something all encompassing, given that we operate on a linear time scale. i tend to kinda relate that too to the freewill/predest idea, though its off topic here.
so not that we should just give up and say we can't understand anything lets never study or think again, but i do believe that at some point (kind of an early point for me sometimes :)) we have to recognize that we are not going to be able to think that big, understand that complexity, get past our minds and our language and our culture and our world with its time dimension...
maybe a bit off topic anyway since the original person might have been more horrified at the 'total rejection' kind of side of things vs the 'how long to punish' part... but they're related, imo... ok will stop musing.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/29/2009 9:34:09 AM
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KaptZ
Posts: 155
Joined: 10/28/2009
From: The swamps of Jersey
Status: offline
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I go back and forth on the subject of Hell.
Is it a physical place?
Is it a state of mental purgatory?
Is it something else entirely?
I try to live my life more as a desire to do good than a fear of doing bad.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/29/2009 12:03:49 PM
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Focusing
Posts: 5178
Joined: 5/19/2007
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quote:
I have serious issues with the concept of Hell
I had a serious issue with the concept of hell, in fact I convinced myself that hell simply didn't exist, God would never do something like that, "hell" was something that church and so-called religious people used to scare others into acting a certain way and doing things a certain way ..... then I was saved. I am NOT saying or implying you or anyone isn't saved, I am just saying that once I was saved and started reading the Bible and having a relationship with God, I realized that Heaven and hell are real places. I want to spend eternity in God's presence and praising Him. Hell is permanent separation from Him.
_____________________________
11/21 is the 11th Annual National Survivors of Suicide Day
Please remember to lift those in prayer who have lost a loved one to suicide
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/29/2009 4:14:05 PM
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hijadelRey71803
Posts: 3
Joined: 10/28/2009
Status: offline
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I serve a loving and gracious God who is also holy and has to judge sin. First Jesus took the punishment we all deserve is death. But for those who still refuse to believe their punishment is hell which is complete eternal separation from him. I don't view God as a vicious God, because that implies that He did not give us a chance nor show us the way of escape which he has done both
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/30/2009 9:21:53 AM
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WOFman
Posts: 33
Joined: 4/18/2005
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Dan,
I have read some of the stuff on your website. You are a universalist. I noticed that this is your only post and will not be responding to this. Will be praying for you.
_____________________________
My Webpage
2009 Christmas Radio
I am the Charismatic your mama warned you about!
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/30/2009 10:44:22 AM
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KaptZ
Posts: 155
Joined: 10/28/2009
From: The swamps of Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WOFman
Dan,
I have read some of the stuff on your website. You are a universalist. I noticed that this is your only post and will not be responding to this. Will be praying for you.
Sounds like a accusation to me. Why? Seems to me that he was just offering his opinion and asking others for their's. No harm in that.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/30/2009 12:00:27 PM
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SuspenseWriter
Posts: 465
Joined: 2/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
quote:
ORIGINAL: WOFman
Dan,
I have read some of the stuff on your website. You are a universalist. I noticed that this is your only post and will not be responding to this. Will be praying for you.
Sounds like a accusation to me. Why? Seems to me that he was just offering his opinion and asking others for their's. No harm in that.
What WOFman means is that as universalist, Dan cannot be a Christian; the two are mutually exclusive. Thus his ideas carry zero weight on a Christian forum. I just hope Dan doesn't wake up to his mistake about one-half second too late.
_____________________________
John Robinson
suspend your disbelief
www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com/blog.htm
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/30/2009 12:11:23 PM
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tuckeree
Posts: 7
Joined: 10/30/2009
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Dan you are well indoctrinated into churchianity.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 10/30/2009 12:56:07 PM
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KaptZ
Posts: 155
Joined: 10/28/2009
From: The swamps of Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SuspenseWriter
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaptZ
quote:
ORIGINAL: WOFman
Dan,
I have read some of the stuff on your website. You are a universalist. I noticed that this is your only post and will not be responding to this. Will be praying for you.
Sounds like a accusation to me. Why? Seems to me that he was just offering his opinion and asking others for their's. No harm in that.
What WOFman means is that as universalist, Dan cannot be a Christian; the two are mutually exclusive. Thus his ideas carry zero weight on a Christian forum. I just hope Dan doesn't wake up to his mistake about one-half second too late.
Oh, come on now! We're not really that closed minded are we? Why shouldn't anyone's opinions be fair to discuss if they are submitted respectfully? Besides aren't you just saying, "I say you are not a Christian, so therefore you are not worth talking to." Isn't there enough 'US vs THEM' in the world already?
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