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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/8/2009 5:23:40 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
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Sammy_S,
Please tell me what these verses mean to you:
1 Corinthians 15:
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”c Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
So, who is the "all" who die in Adam? I'm sure you would not argue that only certain people die in Adam, but all mankind, right? So, who are the "all" who will be made alive in Christ? I guess you would say that is a different "all" Please explain this inconsistency. Is the context different for the two "alls" in this verse? Maybe they have not been translated consistently (that is possible). But regardless of all that, it says in verse 28 that God will be all in all. What does that mean to you? Also, what does it mean to you that God will put all his enemies under his feet? Does it mean that he will hold them there, squirming and suffering under His wrath for all eternity? But what does it mean in verse 24, that Christ will destroy all dominion, authority, and power? Does that mean Satan's dominion in hell will continue to exists? What does "destroy" mean? Does it mean to continue to exists in a fire that never goes out? Please explain it to me. I would like to understand. I understand it this way: Christ is the firstfruits, then those who belong to him (the elect), then everything and everyone else will be made subject to him. No one else will have dominion, authority or power. Not even the omnipotent "human free will" (I'm using sarcasm here regarding free will being "omnipotent" of course). We need to get our thinking of God out of the box of Christian tradition, and let it be set free by the Truth of His Word. Not everything that is taught in Christianity is Truth. Do you leave room for correction of long held beliefs? If you lived in Martin Luther's day would you have dared speak out against the RCC's teachings that held people in bondage? Think about it for a few decades, as L Ray Smith has. (and no I don't think he's a prophet, or Jesus or anything like that, just a guy who's dug around the Bible in search for the whole truth)
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/8/2009 1:48:57 PM
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JimSutton
Posts: 41
Joined: 8/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Perhaps you're right, but I still have a problem with eternal suffering. But I course I don't matter. Just another heretic condemned to burn in hell forever.
I would never trust any born-again Christian who does not have a problem with suffering of any kind. And if they feel smug and comfortable about hellfire and eternal darkness, then they do not have the compassion and love of God. Remember what Paul, the converted Pharisee, was inspired by God to write: without love you ain't got nothin'.
There are many things about God, the forces of evil, and a lot more that we humans cannot understand. We are tiny little creatures on this tiny little planet in the physical universe (that for us seems all but endless in scope, but which may actually prove to be insignificant in every way to whatever we discover in eternity), and with our tiny minds we try to grasp ideas and facts and battles and struggles that reach far beyond everything we know.
God wants us to care, even if we don't understand. We may try to simply deny everything that we don't like or understand, but that gets us nowhere. I hate to see wild creatures lying dead along the highway, but pretending it doesn't happen only makes me blind to reality. We may not grasp all that God has been kind enough to reveal to us in His Word, but denying it or twisting the words around to fit our personal notions and preferences will not change one thing. It will only make us less effective in helping others who really need our help.
Here's the thing: The world does not need more unbelief, more wishy-washy Christians who are unable or unwilling to stand up to the task at hand. The world is literally filled with such people, who either never heard the truth or know it yet are afraid to take it to the streets.
What the world really needs is a people with God's love in them and His Spirit in them, enabling them to make a powerful difference, shining the light of Christ into the darkness.
If you really hate the idea of hell, then commit yourself to doing all in your power (which means a total surrender to the Lord of heaven and earth) to keep anyone and everyone from going there. On the off chance that God really does know what He's talking about, and that He really does tell us the truth in simple terms (so that even a fool like me can get it), make sure you are out in the world making a difference for eternity.
That's my advice. But what do I know? I'm just one of those Bible-thumpers who learned the hard way that God makes no mistakes and that He means exactly what He says.
_____________________________
Jim Sutton
www.GospelGifs.com
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/8/2009 5:11:33 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimSutton
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
Perhaps you're right, but I still have a problem with eternal suffering. But I course I don't matter. Just another heretic condemned to burn in hell forever.
I would never trust any born-again Christian who does not have a problem with suffering of any kind. And if they feel smug and comfortable about hellfire and eternal darkness, then they do not have the compassion and love of God. Remember what Paul, the converted Pharisee, was inspired by God to write: without love you ain't got nothin'.
There are many things about God, the forces of evil, and a lot more that we humans cannot understand. We are tiny little creatures on this tiny little planet in the physical universe (that for us seems all but endless in scope, but which may actually prove to be insignificant in every way to whatever we discover in eternity), and with our tiny minds we try to grasp ideas and facts and battles and struggles that reach far beyond everything we know.
God wants us to care, even if we don't understand. We may try to simply deny everything that we don't like or understand, but that gets us nowhere. I hate to see wild creatures lying dead along the highway, but pretending it doesn't happen only makes me blind to reality. We may not grasp all that God has been kind enough to reveal to us in His Word, but denying it or twisting the words around to fit our personal notions and preferences will not change one thing. It will only make us less effective in helping others who really need our help.
Here's the thing: The world does not need more unbelief, more wishy-washy Christians who are unable or unwilling to stand up to the task at hand. The world is literally filled with such people, who either never heard the truth or know it yet are afraid to take it to the streets.
What the world really needs is a people with God's love in them and His Spirit in them, enabling them to make a powerful difference, shining the light of Christ into the darkness.
If you really hate the idea of hell, then commit yourself to doing all in your power (which means a total surrender to the Lord of heaven and earth) to keep anyone and everyone from going there. On the off chance that God really does know what He's talking about, and that He really does tell us the truth in simple terms (so that even a fool like me can get it), make sure you are out in the world making a difference for eternity.
That's my advice. But what do I know? I'm just one of those Bible-thumpers who learned the hard way that God makes no mistakes and that He means exactly what He says
Hi Jim,
I agree with what you said at the beginning of your post. However, I don't appreciate you implying that I think God makes mistakes; that I think He doesn't mean what He says; that I deny or twist His Word around to suit my preferences; that I'm ignoring the truth, or pretending I don't see it. I submit that I am not doing any of those things. I understand that none of you who believe in eternal hell believe what I just wrote. I already posted a link to a website that explains, in great detail, from Scripture, how the common understanding of hell is a perversion of the original text. It was those who, long ago, introduced this doctrine, that were twisting the Scripture to suit their purposes. Here is that link again.
Here are some other scriptures I have come across. If some people belong in hell, please explain them:
1 Timothy 2:
1. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Sammy_S, can you please tell who this "all" is in these verses? The letter was addressed to Timothy, so certainly "all" can't just mean him, can it? Maybe it was mistranslated from a word that actually meant "only the elect" 
quote:
What the world really needs is a people with God's love in them and His Spirit in them, enabling them to make a powerful difference, shining the light of Christ into the darkness.
So true, so true.
I would write more but I've been spending way too much time on these forums lately. Maybe later
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/8/2009 6:16:13 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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I have another Scripture for you to explain, Sammy S:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
How to you translate world there?
Here is another link that clears up the "eternity/age" issue, if you're willing to consider and examine it:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/9/2009 2:50:20 AM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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I will respond to your posts WL,I've been a bit busy but I should respond to you by tomorrow if the Lord will desires so.
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/9/2009 8:08:53 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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I'm wondering if this thread now belongs in the doctrines folder. Anyone know how to do that?
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 12:39:31 PM
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JimSutton
Posts: 41
Joined: 8/13/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimSutton
I would never trust any born-again Christian who does not have a problem with suffering of any kind... God wants us to care, even if we don't understand. We may try to simply deny everything that we don't like or understand, but that gets us nowhere. I hate to see wild creatures lying dead along the highway, but pretending it doesn't happen only makes me blind to reality. We may not grasp all that God has been kind enough to reveal to us in His Word, but denying it or twisting the words around to fit our personal notions and preferences will not change one thing. It will only make us less effective in helping others who really need our help.
Here's the thing: The world does not need more unbelief, more wishy-washy Christians who are unable or unwilling to stand up to the task at hand. The world is literally filled with such people, who either never heard the truth or know it yet are afraid to take it to the streets....
Hi Jim,
I agree with what you said at the beginning of your post. However, I don't appreciate you implying that I think God makes mistakes; that I think He doesn't mean what He says; that I deny or twist His Word around to suit my preferences; that I'm ignoring the truth, or pretending I don't see it. I submit that I am not doing any of those things. I understand that none of you who believe in eternal hell believe what I just wrote. I already posted a link to a website that explains, in great detail, from Scripture, how the common understanding of hell is a perversion of the original text. It was those who, long ago, introduced this doctrine, that were twisting the Scripture to suit their purposes. Here is that link again.
Here are some other scriptures I have come across. If some people belong in hell, please explain them:
1 Timothy 2:
1. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
Oops! Sorry, I did not mean to upset you, just to speak honestly, without flattery.
Choices, choices. We all make choices every day. Implications, like beauty, often reside in the eye of the beholder. The person (born-again and devoted Christian or otherwise) who does know that they struggle with their own unbelief is bound to stumble headlong into it at some point. We all face teachings and passages in Scripture that we do not understand immediately, and that we may not understand for decades. Our own interests and concerns may raise up against such ideas until we can rightly put them all together, as we grow in our understanding of both the Scriptures and God's nature.
Sin begins in the human heart. Unbelief is one of the very oldest sins that has afflicted human beings, and it has been there since the days of the Garden, when the serpent stirred it around with the words, "Did God really say this?"
If you do not feel comfortable with the idea of hell (as we tend to label the teaching of Scripture regarding eternal damnation), then you will naturally be looking everywhere in the Scriptures for some way to get that idea laid to rest in your own mind. That's what we all do. On the other hand, if you have as your first determination, the commitment to believe God and to allow His Holy Spirit to teach you, then you will readily accept all of the Bible, troubling passages and teachings included, and you will not worry too much about what other people say. (You will never get complete consensus on all points, anyway, so why bother with it?).
In most of us there is a kind of tension, as we want to find Scripture teachings/passages that support our own ideas, and we also want to know for certain what God's Word really teaches, what God is really saying to the world. We must be careful not to single out a specific few verses and try to hang everything we believe (or want to believe) on them. Most of the factions in the church (well demonstrated by denominational divisions and various movements) hang on the interpretation of a tiny few verses and a few words that can never be conclusively proven to state this or that — at least not to everyone's satisfaction.
Your passage (1 Timothy 2:1-8) happens to be a favorite of mine because it is a great passage, filled with wonderful things. Yet some folks insist on pulling all kinds of things from it (depending on what they want it to say). To me, the Bible is not trying to be vague. Isn't the Bible clear on certain points?
God does not want people to go to hell. He does not want us to commit sin. He does not want people to continue to live in bondage to stupidity and deliberate ignorance. He has taken action in the Person of Jesus Christ, making a way for all people everywhere to have eternal life. Anyone may respond to God in faith, from Abram, Noah, and Moses, to Daniel, Jonah, and Zechariah., to Peter, James and John, to you and me and the other guys. Whosoever will may come and partake.
There are men and women in this world who really hate God and who want nothing to do with Him or His kindness or His Holy Spirit. It would be unfair to them to force them to live in the light when they choose and love the darkness. They do not want to spend an eternity with God, or with anything like God.
People are free to choose. God also has a heart of compassion, and He is free to choose. He has preferences and wants and a will. But we do not always do what He wills us to do, and He allows us to experience all that we choose, except as it may be tempered by His grace, enabling us to have more opportunities to shake off our own ways and to respond in faith to God.
The whole Bible is a testimony to these things. The facts and teachings of Scripture are simple and easy enough to grasp that even a fool (like me) will not err in them, when the heart is open to God's Spirit and to His truth. Would you not agree?
_____________________________
Jim Sutton
www.GospelGifs.com
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 3:42:07 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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WL
quote:
But I course I don't matter. Just another heretic condemned to burn in hell forever.
What is the point of this?Where did I say you didn't matter or heretic?You have a poor theology and are on dangerous lines but i don't remember anything that will lead me to call you a heretic.
quote:
So, in your belief system, Jesus only died for the sins of some
No,the scriptures teach that Christ died for His people(children of the promise/elect).If you want to discuss that topic further,let's take it to the Calvinism/Arminianism thread.
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.those who are good enough to believe in him, and in an eternal hell, like you do.
Sigh....Where did I say that?
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I never said that God "has" to be merciful and compassionate. I just said that He IS merciful and compassionate, and that if He wasn't, I wouldn't be motivated to praise Him for such qualities.
If He wasn't merciful and "compassionate" would he be a Just God?
quote:
As for references to eternity in the bible, look it up in the original language and you will find that the meaning has been changed in the translations. Does that mean that "eternal life" is not eternal? Not necessarily. I mentioned a man who has done loads and loads of study on this matter, but have not mentioned his name since most of you would label him a heretic. But here is his name anyway: L Ray Smith. Perhaps you have come across his website: http://bible-truths.com/ I'm sure you are going to bash the "hell" out of him now.
I am aware of that,but thanks for avoiding this passage:
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt 25:46 (ASV)
You see,this verse you managed to avoid is an interesting one.The Greek word for "eternal" in both cases is "aionios"
This word is a simple verse,it can only mean this:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Like I said,if you have a problem with an eternal hell you should have a problem with an eternal heaven.This should end this discussion,at least it would for a biblical person.But am I wrong to assume that you might continue to "have a problem with it"?
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I see no reason that this last sentence can not be taken as a general principal
General principles???Sure if it's talking about people that can relate to those whom James is writing to.If it does not refer to God,do not try to make it so.That is a very dangerous way of interpreting the bible.
James is clearly stating that we(not God) should be merciful or God will not be merciful to us.True Christians are merciful,it is proof that they have been shown mercy by God(see the beatitudes in Mathew).This has NOTHING to do with God's wrath.
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once again it all hinges on man's goodness according to your theology)
Lol,where did i say that?I believe man is so radically depraved it would offend you.You are the one claiming man does not deserve eternal punishment,talk about irony.
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Christ's suffering satisfied God, so why does God need more suffering to satisfy Him?
Christ's suffering satisfied God's wrath for those who place their faith in Him,clearly not everyone will do that.Therefore,their sins need to be punished.
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Oh yeah that's right, He only suffered for certain elect such as you
Yup,look it up.
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Oh that's right, some people aren't good enough to have faith, therefore they have to pay for their sins.
Wrong again,no one is good and no one can have 'faith".It is a gift from God to wretched people like me.
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Earlier, you (I think it was you - maybe it was someone else) stated that in hell, the people will have desires but not be able to fulfill them because they can only be fulfilled in God.
Wasn't me.
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So, I'm asking, how could anyone, created for God's pleasure, created to worship Him, created with the desire for Him, be"at home" in hell for eternity?
They are "home" because that's where they should be.When i say they are "home",of course I am not saying they are comfortable there,it's a way of me saying that's where they deserve to be.
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Also, of course God did not have to save you, or me, or anyone. He does so out of His great compassion and mercy.
Are you saying God saves sinners because His nature required Him to do so?God is indeed merciful and compassionate,but that is because he chose to be.God is merciful and compassionate but he is also full of wrath and justice.There is a reason why Christ had to suffer the wrath of God.
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Of course it is God who grants repentence. He granted it to you, right? So why is it that He will blame those to whom He does not grant repentence, for their evil? Does God show favoritism? Why did He grant you repentence, but not those billions who will burn in hell for eternity?
Are you reading what you are typing??first off,you are not arguing with me here.You acknowledged that it is God who grants repentance,and yet you question that truth.Secondly,repentance is an act of grace itself by God.God didn't save everyone because he doesn't want to,it's not like he had to save anyone.I am shocked he desires to save anyone,that is enough for me to call him gracious.I am not going to question the All-knowing God.read what Paul had to say:
So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? 21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Romans 9:18-21 (ASV)
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He won't grant repentence after death? I don't know about that. Show me a verse that explicitly backs up your statement.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment-Hebrews 9:27
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Like I said I could be wrong, but you sure have a lot of condemnation in your heart toward your fellow human beings
I am not going to pretend I am not a sinner,but I am not going to beat around the bush about the truth.Big difference between condemnation and the truth.I may have offended in an ungodly way,if i have done that i ask for your forgiveness and more importantly plead for mercy from the Lord.But,do not pretend you have been an angel.
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You ought to be spending every waking moment trying to win those people to Christ before they die to a Christless eternity.
Thank you for the reminder,I hope I do the best I can.
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Oh, that's right, you're part of the elect, and they're not, so you could never win them anyway, since they "desire" to go to hell. Hmmm, I see some contradictions here.
You are finally getting biblical,you are correct.I cannot "win" them,"Salvation is of the Lord".What contradictions are you seeing?
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Oh, and of course I have no problem with the concept of eternity in heaven. Who would?
Exactly. 
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 3:54:10 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
I have another Scripture for you to explain, Sammy S:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
How to you translate world there?
Here is another link that clears up the "eternity/age" issue, if you're willing to consider and examine it:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html
How would you translate this:
The multitude therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from the dead, bare witness. 18 For this cause also the multitude went and met him, for that they heard that he had done this sign. 19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Behold how ye prevail nothing: lo, the world is gone after him.
John 12:17-19 (ASV)
Did The Pharisees mean every single person in the world went after Him?Of course not,it's a figure of speech.
And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins
Matt 1:21 (ASV)
which type of people does that the NT writers refer to as God's people?The elect.
But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
1 Peter 2:9-10 (ASV)
Or do you disagree with scripture?
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 4:32:14 PM
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DragsAndRags
Posts: 54
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
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Interesting topic. It's ironic I was just watching a Chuck Missler DVD on the subject of heaven vs. hell last night. Something to consider:
I don't personally believe it will be the sins of laziness, lies, etc. that the average sinner will be paying for in hell. No, Jesus already paid the price of each and every person's sins on the cross, whether everyone accepted him as Lord and Savior or not. It's just my belief, I can't 100% prove it. But if it is the case, then that means that every person going to hell has already had all their sins paid for.
Except one. There is one sin the Bible says is unforgivable in God's eyes, one that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I believe blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the rejection of Jesus Christ. That is what people are going to hell for. That is the sin they will pay for. And the Bible makes it clear they will be judged by how much knowledge they had of Jesus, and what they did with it. When His disciples asked him why he kept talking in parables no one could understand, Jesus said that it would be so that they would hear but not understand, and be blinded. Why? Jesus later condemns the cities around him, saying that if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen the miracles they had, they would have repented. But as it was, their punishment would be worse than Sodom and Gomorrah's in the day of judgment. Why? Because they had more information! They had the real deal right in front of them! I believe Jesus kept speaking in parables to lessen their punishment, as an act of mercy, since He knew they wouldn't believe anyway even if He made himself more clear.
That being said, how is it unfair for a person to suffer torment for all eternity after rejecting Jesus Christ, when all their other sins had been paid for? Imagine there is a person on death row in prison, and you care about that person enough to want to save him from that fate. And so you make a prisoner exchange and have your own precious son sit in the electric chair in that prisoner's place. And when that prisoner is set free with his debt paid by your own son, he goes and lives as he always has, committing the same sins, and takes your son's death for granted. What punishment does such a person deserve? How could he ever pay back what your son suffered, after he rejected such a gift? This may be a clumsy analogy, but I hope it gets the point across. People who willfully reject God's gift of his Son are spitting on the cross. They count Christ's suffering as worthless. And that is as selfish as you can get, to not care that someone suffered immensely for you. In God's eyes, these people deserve true justice for not seeing His Son's blood as precious.
Yes, hell is hard to deal with. It frightens me that I have so many family members going there. I care about them so much, and I've witnessed to them, but still they choose hell. They choose their own selfish desires over the One True God. They choose to serve themselves instead of God. They count Christ's suffering as vain. I look around at my family, coworkers, and acquaintances, and I feel the urgency to share the gospel. Sometimes I don't feel equipped to know the best way and the best timing, and that's something I hope God guides me in. I want to share more and more, and find more ways to do that. I've shared, but have never seen someone come to repentance for all my sharing. But I can only hope that God uses me to plant seeds in their hearts, and that those seeds will sprout someday.
I know even if I don't share, God will find another to share. If nothing else, His Word says that creation itself is a testimony, and that there is no excuse to not acknowledge God. To those who say that it would be mean of God to send people to hell who live in deep dark Africa where they've never heard the gospel--they've seen creation, and I believe the Holy Spirit uses it to testify to them of God. They may not know God's name, they may not be certain of any kind of Messiah, but they can embrace the concept of a One True God and have hope. Who knows how many people really are saved who never heard the gospel? Do we really have a tally of those God ministered to Himself through His creation and His Holy Spirit, and who walk in the faith of a Living God? Do not discount God's own ability to reach people. I am just a vessel that he uses. He can just as soon use a tree or a rock to get His point across to people. Granted, for all the times I didn't share the gospel when I should have, I will be held accountable, because that is something that God expected me to do. It is disobedience for me not to when the Spirit is leading me to. But that does not mean the person I was meant to share it with is shafted and it's all my fault they went to hell. Again, God is perfectly capable of getting through to them without using me. He's God, after all.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 4:52:48 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DragsAndRags
Interesting topic. It's ironic I was just watching a Chuck Missler DVD on the subject of heaven vs. hell last night. Something to consider:
I don't personally believe it will be the sins of laziness, lies, etc. that the average sinner will be paying for in hell. No, Jesus already paid the price of each and every person's sins on the cross, whether everyone accepted him as Lord and Savior or not. It's just my belief, I can't 100% prove it. But if it is the case, then that means that every person going to hell has already had all their sins paid for.
Except one. There is one sin the Bible says is unforgivable in God's eyes, one that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I believe blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the rejection of Jesus Christ. That is what people are going to hell for. That is the sin they will pay for. And the Bible makes it clear they will be judged by how much knowledge they had of Jesus, and what they did with it. When His disciples asked him why he kept talking in parables no one could understand, Jesus said that it would be so that they would hear but not understand, and be blinded. Why? Jesus later condemns the cities around him, saying that if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen the miracles they had, they would have repented. But as it was, their punishment would be worse than Sodom and Gomorrah's in the day of judgment. Why? Because they had more information! They had the real deal right in front of them! I believe Jesus kept speaking in parables to lessen their punishment, as an act of mercy, since He knew they wouldn't believe anyway even if He made himself more clear.
That being said, how is it unfair for a person to suffer torment for all eternity after rejecting Jesus Christ, when all their other sins had been paid for? Imagine there is a person on death row in prison, and you care about that person enough to want to save him from that fate. And so you make a prisoner exchange and have your own precious son sit in the electric chair in that prisoner's place. And when that prisoner is set free with his debt paid by your own son, he goes and lives as he always has, committing the same sins, and takes your son's death for granted. What punishment does such a person deserve? How could he ever pay back what your son suffered, after he rejected such a gift? This may be a clumsy analogy, but I hope it gets the point across. People who willfully reject God's gift of his Son are spitting on the cross. They count Christ's suffering as worthless. And that is as selfish as you can get, to not care that someone suffered immensely for you. In God's eyes, these people deserve true justice for not seeing His Son's blood as precious.
Yes, hell is hard to deal with. It frightens me that I have so many family members going there. I care about them so much, and I've witnessed to them, but still they choose hell. They choose their own selfish desires over the One True God. They choose to serve themselves instead of God. They count Christ's suffering as vain. I look around at my family, coworkers, and acquaintances, and I feel the urgency to share the gospel. Sometimes I don't feel equipped to know the best way and the best timing, and that's something I hope God guides me in. I want to share more and more, and find more ways to do that. I've shared, but have never seen someone come to repentance for all my sharing. But I can only hope that God uses me to plant seeds in their hearts, and that those seeds will sprout someday.
I know even if I don't share, God will find another to share. If nothing else, His Word says that creation itself is a testimony, and that there is no excuse to not acknowledge God. To those who say that it would be mean of God to send people to hell who live in deep dark Africa where they've never heard the gospel--they've seen creation, and I believe the Holy Spirit uses it to testify to them of God. They may not know God's name, they may not be certain of any kind of Messiah, but they can embrace the concept of a One True God and have hope. Who knows how many people really are saved who never heard the gospel? Do we really have a tally of those God ministered to Himself through His creation and His Holy Spirit, and who walk in the faith of a Living God? Do not discount God's own ability to reach people. I am just a vessel that he uses. He can just as soon use a tree or a rock to get His point across to people. Granted, for all the times I didn't share the gospel when I should have, I will be held accountable, because that is something that God expected me to do. It is disobedience for me not to when the Spirit is leading me to. But that does not mean the person I was meant to share it with is shafted and it's all my fault they went to hell. Again, God is perfectly capable of getting through to them without using me. He's God, after all.
No offense,but then why say it?
That wasn't biblical.
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 5:19:17 PM
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DragsAndRags
Posts: 54
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
No offense,but then why say it?
That wasn't biblical.
OK, what if I said the opposite? Let's say Jesus paid for a package deal rather than for each and every one of us individually. Can you prove that is Biblical? It's just a hunch, really. Because I believe God cares about each and every one of us individually. Either way, by dying for Adam, all of Adam's descendants have been died for as well. Jesus didn't have to come to earth and die once for each person over and over again. He died once and for all, by dying once for Adam, since we all come from Adam. You could perhaps argue the package deal from that perspective. But in the same sense, by paying for the whole package, each individual's sins have been paid for already. The person who rejected Christ has already had his sins paid for under this package deal system. However, I like to take the package deal system further by saying that each person covered under the package is important to God. He said he cares for the sparrows, so why wouldn't He care for each person in the package deal? But, no matter how you look at it, every person's sin is still covered, just by the fact Jesus died for Adam, being the last Adam. Just as death was introduced through the first Adam, so life was introduced through the last Adam.
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 5:31:09 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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Drags and rags
quote:
Let's say Jesus paid for a package deal rather than for each and every one of us individually. Can you prove that is Biblical?
I wouldn't call it a "package deal" but yeah,I can prove it with the scriptures.I'll re-post what I wrote to WL:
And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins
Matt 1:21 (ASV)
which type of people does that the NT writers refer to as God's people?The elect.
But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
1 Peter 2:9-10 (ASV)
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 7:33:59 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimSutton
In most of us there is a kind of tension, as we want to find Scripture teachings/passages that support our own ideas, and we also want to know for certain what God's Word really teaches, what God is really saying to the world. We must be careful not to single out a specific few verses and try to hang everything we believe (or want to believe) on them. Most of the factions in the church (well demonstrated by denominational divisions and various movements) hang on the interpretation of a tiny few verses and a few words that can never be conclusively proven to state this or that — at least not to everyone's satisfaction.
This is exactly why we have this doctrine of eternal punishment in the first place. There are only a few verses in the bible that support it, and they are translated incorrectly.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 7:36:41 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
The whole Bible is a testimony to these things. The facts and teachings of Scripture are simple and easy enough to grasp that even a fool (like me) will not err in them, when the heart is open to God's Spirit and to His truth. Would you not agree?
Yes I agree
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 7:41:26 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment-Hebrews 9:27
Yes, I know this verse, and am familiar with all the verses you quote. I thought you might come up with this one. What does the verse say? Judgment, not eternal punishment.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 8:03:58 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? 21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Romans 9:18-21 (ASV)
I'm also familiar with this one too. I'm willing to bet none of you even bothered to click on the link I provided, because you know this guy, L Ray Smith, doesn't agree with your theology, so you probably just dismiss him, since you are sure that you are right. Anyway, he has examined this scripture too. Take a look at it, does it say anywhere, eternal punishment? No, it only says that God will harden who he chooses, and have mercy on whom He will have mercy. You all read "eternal punishment" into it, because that's what you believe and you are used to thinking that way. I just read carefully chapters 9 through 11, and here is just a sampling of what I found:
Romans 11:32.For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
I know you're going to say I ripped this out of context, but *sigh* I'm getting tired of arguing over this. I probably won't continue, because it's apparently useless, but I just want to say that it really set me free when I read L Ray Smith's site. It just seems that those of you who hold so tightly to this concept of eternal hell are just hardened (by God?) to this truth. But of what consequence is it anyway? You will go on believing this doctrine, and I will go on believing mine. I only wish you would not accuse me of the things you all have been accusing me of.
1 Corinthians 13:12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
I don't claim to know it all. I hope none of you do either. I hope to be in heaven someday, and then I think we will know the answer to this question of hell. I only wish that there was not so much division in the church here and now, and I think that there's a reason God told us about these things in His Word, and it wasn't so we could all argue about it.
1 Corinthians 13:13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 8:06:17 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
No,the scriptures teach that Christ died for His people(children of the promise/elect).If you want to discuss that topic further,let's take it to the Calvinism/Arminianism thread.
So, why don't you take this arguement to that thread, since clearly not everyone here agrees with your doctrine.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 8:12:26 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
I am aware of that,but thanks for avoiding this passage:
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt 25:46 (ASV)
You see,this verse you managed to avoid is an interesting one.The Greek word for "eternal" in both cases is "aionios"
This word is a simple verse,it can only mean this:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Like I said,if you have a problem with an eternal hell you should have a problem with an eternal heaven.This should end this discussion,at least it would for a biblical person.But am I wrong to assume that you might continue to "have a problem with it"?
I'm not avoiding that passage. That is the very passage that your whole hell doctrine comes from, and you are the first one I have come across that claims that "aionios" means "eternal", not "age" That is all dealt with here and here as I've already pointed out.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 8:15:26 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
quote:
ORIGINAL: WanderingLamb
I have another Scripture for you to explain, Sammy S:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
How to you translate world there?
Here is another link that clears up the "eternity/age" issue, if you're willing to consider and examine it:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html
How would you translate this:
The multitude therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from the dead, bare witness. 18 For this cause also the multitude went and met him, for that they heard that he had done this sign. 19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Behold how ye prevail nothing: lo, the world is gone after him.
John 12:17-19 (ASV)
Did The Pharisees mean every single person in the world went after Him?Of course not,it's a figure of speech.
And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins
Matt 1:21 (ASV)
which type of people does that the NT writers refer to as God's people?The elect.
But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
1 Peter 2:9-10 (ASV)
Or do you disagree with scripture?
I can see there is no way I'm going to get you to see it from my perspective, because you pick and choose when you want to translate "world" or "all" as inclusive or as "a figure of speech"
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 8:18:35 PM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
Sammy_S
which type of people does that the NT writers refer to as God's people?The elect.
But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
1 Peter 2:9-10 (ASV)
Or do you disagree with scripture?
I don't deny that scripture, but you probably can't fathom how. I'm tired of trying to explain myself. It's useless because this is a never-ending argument. I will just attempt to explain that the elect are those who know God and follow Jesus in this age. The concept that God will save all in no way diminishes that, although you can't seem to comprehend how that can be.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/11/2009 11:19:38 PM
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justpassinby
Posts: 785
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus. Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
You are 110% correct. The idea of an eternal tormenting hell is pagan and mideval.
One fellow in our church said already, "We all have eternal life" [note that word] he went on to say, "It's where are you going to spend it?"
What he failed to see is that Jesus said that one who is not born again will perish (the Greek means to destroy fully).
The idea of eternal fire means the state in which it is irreversible. In other words, the adjective eternal means that the action of that fire is eternal, there is no reversal, and the punishment is eternal.
in addition, the inherent definition of death, be it spiritual or physical (although man is both) is cessation of life. Where there is no life, there is no consciousness either. I find it amazing that "death" has been redefined to mean "eternal suffering". I was caught up in that fairytale until the Lord delivered me.
All that said, the wicked will be burned in the Lake of Fire. That is clearly taught. I have no idea how long that burning will last, but however long it is, the fire will do it's job, the wicked will be as ashes under the feet of the righteous, and they will be destroyed.
The fate of Satan and the demons is similar. God has to eradicate all evil for the new heavens and new earth.
See this site for more clarification and doctrine: http://www.helltruth.com/
_____________________________
Link to Genealogy of Christ
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/12/2009 1:20:44 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: justpassinby
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus. Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
You are 110% correct. The idea of an eternal tormenting hell is pagan and mideval.
One fellow in our church said already, "We all have eternal life" [note that word] he went on to say, "It's where are you going to spend it?"
What he failed to see is that Jesus said that one who is not born again will perish (the Greek means to destroy fully).
The idea of eternal fire means the state in which it is irreversible. In other words, the adjective eternal means that the action of that fire is eternal, there is no reversal, and the punishment is eternal.
in addition, the inherent definition of death, be it spiritual or physical (although man is both) is cessation of life. Where there is no life, there is no consciousness either. I find it amazing that "death" has been redefined to mean "eternal suffering". I was caught up in that fairytale until the Lord delivered me.
All that said, the wicked will be burned in the Lake of Fire. That is clearly taught. I have no idea how long that burning will last, but however long it is, the fire will do it's job, the wicked will be as ashes under the feet of the righteous, and they will be destroyed.
The fate of Satan and the demons is similar. God has to eradicate all evil for the new heavens and new earth.
See this site for more clarification and doctrine: http://www.helltruth.com/
Hmm, the same one who says hell is not eternal believes the DaVinci Code is based on fact. It is not looking good.
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/12/2009 2:54:01 AM
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WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
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Interesting website, justpassingby. It does line up with what L Ray Smith says. I like these sections:
quote:
For too long the doctrine of hellfire has been little more than a tool used to cajole sinners into being saved. We are told in Scripture that we love God "because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Certainly people should have a healthy respect and concern about the punishment due the wicked, but only love for God can motivate them to truly surrender their hearts to a God of love.
quote:
Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3:4). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would "surely die" as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17), a liar.
(here is a link to the website justpassingby shared, once again: http://www.helltruth.com/Home/Hath-Hell-No-Fury-Pt-3.aspx)
For too long, I was a "christian" because I thought, "I have to be one, or else!" No wonder I didn't have any great desire to worship God. Then I began to doubt my salvation because I didn't see God's reflection in my life. Basically, my motive for "being christian" didn't change much. It was all about fear of the alternative.
While I would be much happier with a scenario where God redeems everyone, as I have stated, it is, of course, possible, that the way I understand the scriptures I quoted is wrong. Maybe the end of the wicked is annihilation. At least there is more biblical support for that concept than for the concept of eternal hell.
Thanks for sharing that link with us, justpassingby. I would take issue with you on your other link, however 
To all: what does the following passage mean to you as we are thinking about people's eternal destinies?
Romans 10:6.But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down)
7."or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
_____________________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
I'm being brainwashed.
Romans 12:2
Ephesians 5:26
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