Login  | |
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/15/2009 8:31:12 PM
|
|
|
awepro
Posts: 80
Joined: 3/14/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
So, why worry about what happens when we die? It is simply beyond our control. We will have to let God do with us what He wants to do with us when we die.
We have 100% control over what will happen to us when we die. We have an absolute guarantee that if we choose to repent our sins, ask God for forgiveness and surrender every area of our life to the Lord Jesus Christ and accept Him as our Savior, we will go to Heaven. If we choose to do otherwise, we will go to Hell for eternity. Eternity is a very very very long time with no end, so it should matter to us very much how we will spend our time forever. That's why we have to worry about what will happen if we disobey.
As to the "we will have to let God do with us what He wants to do with us when we die" is not God's way of thinking. He's not moody or change His mind as He sees fit at the particular moment. He said it way in advance that when we stand before Him it is already decided by us where we are going simply based on whether building a relationship with Jesus or not while we are on this earth. However, we will still have to give an account of our life when standing before Him to see what we did right and what we did wrong. He never says "we'll see".
God has no surprises, he told us everything in advance through His Word, if we miss it, it is because we don't study the Bible well enough. We can never overdo it. He gave us the Ten Commandments, and Jesus the eleventh "love one another". This is not a wide selection as you see products at retail stores.
Everything else beside what is in the Bible is the enemy at work. He is a loser, a master liar with a weak character by default, so he has to compensate for his shortcomings by being deceptive, cunning, masquerading as God himself or good people, even manipulating the masses through different tools, from the media to repeating the idea enough times in our ears, so that eventually we believe what he is saying. He is also a good salesman persuading people to buy into his own ideas. God even gave him a talent of being creative and he uses it in a destructive way, like a mutant virus, finding newer and newer ways to impress people and bend their free will towards him. He makes us formulate our own ideas and find the answers ourselves instead of turning to God's Word for counsel.
God is not concerned with our own opinions. There is no such thing in the Bible that "free thinking Christianity" and "religious pluralism", there is just one, God's Christianity that is all written in the Word. He is concerned that we learn His ways by reading the Bible and obey Him. We have to make up our mind here and now, because we may drop dead the next minute and then it will be too late.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/15/2009 8:41:31 PM
|
|
|
RustyCarr
Posts: 972
Joined: 3/11/2009
Status: offline
|
Deermousie wrote: The time a person could earn salvation by being good ended 2000 years ago*. Now it's either Jesus won it for a person and they believe it, or that person is lost. I can't tell by your words what you base your salvation on (this is your golden opportunity to repond! ).
Our salvation is not based on works so that we may not boast. But, as a Christian I have a desire to do good works, a very strong one at that. And fearlessly speak the Truth, even to those who may become offended. (See what Stephen did in Acts.)
Again, I simply try very hard to use common sense. AM I TRAINING THEM UP IN THE WAY THEY SHOULD GO? I want to be able to say that I WORKED very hard to instill a love of God into my children so that they may desire to do good works in their life, as well.
But thankfully salvation is not based on works and perfection, because I am not perfect. I only TRY to be what He wants me to be and I desire to be with people who honestly TRY to be what He wants them to be. This is a church that has "Come out from among them and be separate." The worldly wise are not TRYING and have no desire to TRY. Thankfully, my church is patient and forgiving, because the worldly wise are not patient and forgiving. There is love found in my church, while there is the appearance of love in the worldly wise. Aren't the worldly wise quick to condemn Christians? See how they lift themselves above a Christian who stumbles? That is not God's church.
Anyway, what happens after I am dead is in His control, not mine. Perhaps I should simply avoid discussions on Hell after death and consentrate on how to avoid hell on earth now, while I am alive, and in control of my choices and actions. I think Jesus would like it very much if we ALL focused on what we are doing now a little better. Perhaps we could be a light to the lost, or salt that hasn't lost its saltiness.
I do know what Jesus said about hell. It is good to know what He said about it, but it is not the center of my faith or something that constantly demands my attention. I prefer, "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." John 15:12
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 3/15/2009 9:01:10 PM
|
|
|
awepro
Posts: 80
Joined: 3/14/2009
Status: offline
|
Deermousie said:
quote:
The time a person could earn salvation by being good ended 2000 years ago*
RustyCarr,
Deermousie didn't suggest that Christians are not supposed to do good works. Jesus did command to do good things and be a good person. The statement above referred to what Jesus said that 'nobody can go to the Father except through me'. So the statement doesn't relate to what you were saying about doing good works, and you are completely right and appreciated that you have a desire to do good works. Hope there's no misunderstanding about that.
God Bless.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/3/2009 1:40:51 AM
|
|
|
WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RustyCarr
Deermousie wrote: The time a person could earn salvation by being good ended 2000 years ago*. Now it's either Jesus won it for a person and they believe it, or that person is lost. I can't tell by your words what you base your salvation on (this is your golden opportunity to repond! ).
Our salvation is not based on works so that we may not boast. But, as a Christian I have a desire to do good works, a very strong one at that. And fearlessly speak the Truth, even to those who may become offended. (See what Stephen did in Acts.)
Again, I simply try very hard to use common sense. AM I TRAINING THEM UP IN THE WAY THEY SHOULD GO? I want to be able to say that I WORKED very hard to instill a love of God into my children so that they may desire to do good works in their life, as well.
But thankfully salvation is not based on works and perfection, because I am not perfect. I only TRY to be what He wants me to be and I desire to be with people who honestly TRY to be what He wants them to be. This is a church that has "Come out from among them and be separate." The worldly wise are not TRYING and have no desire to TRY. Thankfully, my church is patient and forgiving, because the worldly wise are not patient and forgiving. There is love found in my church, while there is the appearance of love in the worldly wise. Aren't the worldly wise quick to condemn Christians? See how they lift themselves above a Christian who stumbles? That is not God's church.
Anyway, what happens after I am dead is in His control, not mine. Perhaps I should simply avoid discussions on Hell after death and consentrate on how to avoid hell on earth now, while I am alive, and in control of my choices and actions. I think Jesus would like it very much if we ALL focused on what we are doing now a little better. Perhaps we could be a light to the lost, or salt that hasn't lost its saltiness.
I do know what Jesus said about hell. It is good to know what He said about it, but it is not the center of my faith or something that constantly demands my attention. I prefer, "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." John 15:12
Rusty Carr, did you see Deermousie's fine print?
quote:
*but it never worked. Only Jesus lived perfectly; anyone who broke any of the laws was guilty of breaking them all. Rough standard!
But just to put in my two cents of "blasphemy":
I too have problems with the concept of eternal torture. Which of you would wish that on your disobedient children?*(see note) Do you think you are more merciful than God? Or do you think that His holiness is so great, it overrides His compassion, or his ability to change those people who live evil lives? How did you come to know God? Was it through your goodness? How did you even come to the point of realizing your sinfulness? Was it your own doing? You would all answer "no," right? So why do you get eternal bliss simply because God chose to give you faith and change your heart? None of salvation comes from your own choice. So why do you get eternal reward for what God did, while others, on whom God did not have mercy, receive eternal punishment?
I realize all of your answers will be, "I don't understand it either, but it's in the bible," or, "I don't like it either, but it's in the bible" Well what if the bible translations are wrong? What if this concept of eternal torture did not come from God? I know of a man who spent years studying the Scriptures in the original languages, and has come to the conclusion that the hell of eternal torture that traditional Christianity teaches is a fabrication.
*(I know, you're going to say that the evil are not God's children, just His creation, but that's hogwash! We all came from God. We all came from Adam and Eve. He is our creator, just as our earthly parents are our procreators. And to those that would say that Satan is the father of the wicked, think about it: a father is the one who "begets" not the one who kidnaps and brainwashes! Jesus said that the pharasees were children of the devil, but that didn't mean that God is not their true father, or that God did not love them as much as he loved those he saved.)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/3/2009 11:23:40 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RustyCarr
I simply leave to God what happens to the dead. The debate about "ceasing to exist" or "torment forever" is, in my mind a distraction. ...I see plainly that mankind is quite capable of creating "hell" here, now, and in the future. ... So, why worry about what happens when we die? It is NOT a distraction or something that is better left alone. There is a HUGE difference between a short period of discomfort which is ended in nothingness and eternal torture that is beyond anything we can even imagine that is never ending.
Just how much pain CAN a God who is all knowing and all powerful pump into an individual? I think that is a mere drop in the ocean.....
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/3/2009 11:41:35 AM
|
|
|
TMeeks
Posts: 1546
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
|
Hell must be seen in light of God's ETERNAL purpose.
Hell is the experience that will show to all creatures for all eternity the consequences of rebelling against God. This is a part of the plan of God to ensure an eternity of peace once the whole story of sin and rebellion has been played out.
Eternity, not our concept of time, must be the benchmark. The period of time when sin and rebellion reigned seems like a long time to us, thousands of years. But, it is a mere blip in the light of eternity. The saga of sin had to be played out to its fullest in order to ensure that eternity future will never be marred by sin and rebellion again.
In this light, even an eternal hell for a subset of God's creatures that rebelled against the Almighty God, is a small price to pay for infinite and eternal peace for ALL of God's creation for all time. For all we know God will now be able to enter into a surge of new creations of new creatures with the confidence that the example of hell will be SO stunning that not a single one of them will ever think to rebel again. In THIS we can even see hell for some as an act of kindness for an infinite number of others.
We also have to remember that all God is doing is giving those that have rejected him what they wanted... a life without God. Unfortunately for them, that life is most likely eternal in existence. And, unlike their life here, where common grace ameliorates the consequences of their choice... since their life is not completely without God... their life beyond this one WILL be exactly what they wanted. And, they'll have it.
They will have the opportunity to run their own lives in complete and utter autonomous freedom from God along with millions of others who have that same 'freedom' which now they will realize is terrible bondage.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 9/3/2009 11:51:47 AM >
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/3/2009 11:57:49 AM
|
|
|
delaney
Posts: 9
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline
|
I too struggle with the idea that Heaven, the universe and eternity in all its perfection would be seemingly marred by somewhere out there creation is writhing and tormenting in eternal suffering. You know how a pebble getting into your shoe - though teeny - can mar an otherwise nice afternoon walk? That's how I sometimes imagine knowing that while I carry on with my reward, someone else might be eternally punished for making the wrong choice. I'd like to think that I could get over it and get on with the fun of Heaven, but I just wonder sometimes if there will be an eternal reminder to the saved of the consequences of sin (will that be necessary?) along with the eternal punishment of the sinful. Will the saved just put that out of our minds?
This is something I need to study further and work to understand, because I do believe in an eternal consequence to rejecting God (the Bible clearly states that, and I believe the Bible). But is it OK to say that I struggle with the idea of conscious suffering in Hell? Is it OK for Dan to say it? I hope so.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/3/2009 12:32:38 PM
|
|
|
TMeeks
Posts: 1546
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: delaney
I too struggle with the idea that Heaven, the universe and eternity in all its perfection would be seemingly marred by somewhere out there creation is writhing and tormenting in eternal suffering. You know how a pebble getting into your shoe - though teeny - can mar an otherwise nice afternoon walk? That's how I sometimes imagine knowing that while I carry on with my reward, someone else might be eternally punished for making the wrong choice. I'd like to think that I could get over it and get on with the fun of Heaven, but I just wonder sometimes if there will be an eternal reminder to the saved of the consequences of sin (will that be necessary?) along with the eternal punishment of the sinful. Will the saved just put that out of our minds?
This is something I need to study further and work to understand, because I do believe in an eternal consequence to rejecting God (the Bible clearly states that, and I believe the Bible). But is it OK to say that I struggle with the idea of conscious suffering in Hell? Is it OK for Dan to say it? I hope so.
Yes, it is OK to say it as long as we realize that we are not God and our minds cannot even grasp the concept of infinity and eternity, so how are we to understand eternal plans rather that short term plans.
The Bible actually is a short-term kind of revelation dealing specifically with God's relationship to man. What it does NOT do is give us the ETERNAL plans of God which, undoubtably, go well beyond man and into worlds yet to be created or at least experienced by man.
Neither you, nor Dan, nor I have truly seen the Glory of God in all His fullness. So, any perspective that we have about the seriousness of rebellion is tainted by the lack of a true understanding of WHO we are rebelling against. Know matter how big we think our vision of God might be, it CANNOT match the real thing. And, this is the problem we have in comparing looking at God while knowing there is a hell. It's easy to look at both when our God is just MOSTLY big. But, when we are face to face and in the presence of the ACTUAL GOD... just how big is hell going to be in comparison.
If we do our best to try to come to grips with the ENORMITY of God, the sheer folly of puny humans to spit in his face becomes all the more apparent. And, when you ADD to that folly, the fact that God laid every one of their sins on His Eternal Son, as payment for reconciling them to himself, then the folly can be seen as absolute madness.
Right now you are comparing those lost around you to yourself. And, there isn't a whole lot of difference between us. But, when you FINALLY have the chance to compare the Holiness and Magnitude of God to those who spit in his face, you will fully understand why there is a hell. And, you will not look back.
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/3/2009 10:02:30 PM
|
|
|
Redjasper
Posts: 340
Status: offline
|
quote:
I think we have a problem with hell existing
Someone said on one of these forums that one of Satan's oldest tricks is to make people believe he doesn't exist. I believe it's true.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/3/2009 11:35:37 PM
|
|
|
TMeeks
Posts: 1546
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
|
Someone in another thread suggested we search Ephesians 1:1-10 to see the purpose for our Salvation. I thought that these particular verses related to this topic very well.
Ephesians 1: 7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In an earlier message, I suggested that Hell is a part of the ETERNAL plan of God to bring PEACE to eternity. Verse 10 is fascinating in that it suggests that right now not everything is brought together under the headship of Christ. As long as there is even ONE creature rebelling, then all things in heaven and earth are NOT under one head. This verse confirms that the ultimate goal is complete and total unity and peace in eternity and that can ONLY come when those who disrupt the peace are dealt with.
But, MORE importantly, this verse reveals the true HORROR of sin and rebellion. Those who reject the Lordship of Christ aren't just nice people making a huge mistake. THEY ARE STANDING IN THE WAY OF GOD'S ULTIMATE GOAL OF BRINGING ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND EARTH TOGETHER UNDER ONE HEAD... BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE THEIR OWN HEAD!!!
The EVIL of the ramifications to the UNITY of ALL THINGS under God and Jesus Christ that one single act of defiance represents is ENORMOUS!!!! How DARE they keep Jesus Christ from taking his rightful place on the throne as UNDISPUTED HEAD of all things in heaven and earth! And, that is EXACTLY what they are doing in their rebellion.
And, so were we before we turned to Christ for forgiveness. And, this verse speaks to those of us that will escape that Hell, too. How DARE we accept his sacrifice for our sins and withhold from him the Lordship over our lives that He deserves! For, if we participate in ANY rebellion, then we too are participating in keeping him from being the ONLY head over heaven and earth as we assert ourselves against him. This is serious stuff!
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/4/2009 2:41:17 AM
|
|
|
Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
|
You know,it is VERY odd but I have not met ONE person who told has told me they hate the idea of a Holy God punishing His Holy Son for repulsive(Yeah,that's the word I used) people so they can go to Heaven.
If he wasn't the hit and run type he wouldn't like my responses very much.
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/4/2009 6:34:51 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
Deermousie wrote: The time a person could earn salvation by being good ended 2000 years ago*. Now it's either Jesus won it for a person and they believe it, or that person is lost. Actually, it has ALWAYS been on the basis of faith:
Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as rightousness.
Savation has NEVER been on the basis of how "good" one was.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/4/2009 11:26:01 AM
|
|
|
refpil
Posts: 46
Joined: 8/26/2007
Status: offline
|
I honestly have a hard time with the torture image and wish that people just get annihilated.
I think though that love and consequences can coexist. I think some people are incapable of change that they are unfit to be in society, and should be isolated from the rest of society. That does not mean you have no fondness for that person and just wants him to go away. Of course, there is the idea of God's power but it will be off the topic to wrestle with that now.
I think hell is for people who are unfit for life with God and none of us is capable of life with God. By God's grace, he brings people to life with him. Maybe it is just so horrible to live a life isolated from God that the image of torture is used by the biblical writers. Those tortures (burning) may not be literal. I know there are people who doesn't care about God but in reality they are still objects of God's care, whether they acknowledge it or not. There will come a time when that care will be completely withdrawn and that is hell. Again, maybe it is not literal torture but the reality may be that life without God is likened to torture.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/4/2009 11:46:29 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3812
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: refpil
I honestly have a hard time with ....
I think though that .... I think some people ....
I think hell .... Where is scripture in all this??
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/4/2009 12:26:40 PM
|
|
|
Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: refpil
I honestly have a hard time with the torture image and wish that people just get annihilated.
I think though that love and consequences can coexist. I think some people are incapable of change that they are unfit to be in society, and should be isolated from the rest of society. That does not mean you have no fondness for that person and just wants him to go away. Of course, there is the idea of God's power but it will be off the topic to wrestle with that now.
I think hell is for people who are unfit for life with God and none of us is capable of life with God. By God's grace, he brings people to life with him. Maybe it is just so horrible to live a life isolated from God that the image of torture is used by the biblical writers. Those tortures (burning) may not be literal. I know there are people who doesn't care about God but in reality they are still objects of God's care, whether they acknowledge it or not. There will come a time when that care will be completely withdrawn and that is hell. Again, maybe it is not literal torture but the reality may be that life without God is likened to torture.
How come you don't have a "hard time" with the joy of heaven?
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/5/2009 7:01:56 PM
|
|
|
WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: refpil
I honestly have a hard time with ....
I think though that .... I think some people ....
I think hell .... Where is scripture in all this??
I believe this thread is about expressing the problems we have in our own responses to the concept of hell. One can believe and accept that scripture teaches eternal punishment, but still have a problem living at peace with that. The OP expressed it that way (even if he's jumped ship).
I have believed in a hell of eternal punishment for much of my life but have recently began to question the veracity of that concept. I have, however, always felt horrified by the prospect of a God who IS LOVE, torturing souls for eternity. And then when people say that those souls "get what they want" that's ridiculous! NOBODY wants to experience eternal torture. Do you really believe that people would not change their minds about accepting Jesus once they are in such a hell for a second?
One problem I have with the whole concept is that human beings are born, live a very short while, with limited understanding, crippled by sin. Then God sends them to be tortured for ETERNITY because of their sinful, unbelieving hearts during their short pitiful lives????? And just how does the punishment fit the crime????
This concept of eternal torture has plagued my mind long enough. It has been a dark cloud over my feelings about God. It has given me the feeling that Satan WINS (since most believe that the majority of the human race will go to hell, not heaven), and that God is extremely harsh. No, I do not desire to worship such a god. Such a god fails in his mission of redeeming mankind.
< Message edited by WanderingLamb -- 9/5/2009 7:34:23 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/5/2009 7:23:27 PM
|
|
|
WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: terryjohn
I have a serious issue with there being no hell, for if that were the case, I would be duty bound to dish out justice in the here and now. But God restrains me saying vengence is His.
Dan did not say that he believes God does not punish the wicked.
quote:
Nevertheless, to those who reject God, He says, thy will be done. Here they can then do nothing for with out God the are lost. To grant them their desire to be eternally seperated from God is grace unlimited and the total destruction of their souls just bad tempered. The fact that they will eternally regret their decision is a lesson to all and one they I am sure would their loved ones learn.
Show me in the bible where God says "thy will be done" to man. If that were so, no one would be saved. I only know of the Lord's prayer where Jesus said, "Thy will be done" to the Father. No, He pursues sinful man, and redeems him.
Where I come from, grace means "a. the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. b. the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them.". Just how does letting sinful man "get what he wants" (separation from God) qualify as grace? How does eternal torture get labeled "grace"???
Jesus prayed from the cross, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" Those who die without knowing Christ still know not what they do. They are still blinded by the god of this age.
quote:
Hell is a place where men will have desires and no way of fulfilling them for they have rejected the only one who can fulfill their needs. To grant a quick and eternal death would be unfair considering the pain and suffering they have inflicted on others. Would it not be better that they all had to live the lives of those they persecuted?
A quick eternal death does not sound like a great option either. I don't know about you, but I would not want to be annihilated. No one wants death unless they are in the pit of despair. Isn't it the basic instinct of all human beings to survive? Missing heaven would not be punishment enough?
And not everyone who "doesn't make it to heaven" has persecuted Christians. Maybe they just were lazy. Maybe they just were covetous. That is enough to "fall short of the glory of God" and therefore not be fit for heaven.
quote:
To grant a quick and eternal death would be unfair considering the pain and suffering they have inflicted on others. Would it not be better that they all had to live the lives of those they persecuted?
So to be tortured for all eternity as punishment for one short lifetime of such mistreatment would be fair?
quote:
No punishment would only provoke evil men. Would you also favour capital punishment in our prison systems?
I don't follow your logic here. So you're saying capital punishment would not motivate people to refrain from committing crimes?
As a sinner who required the sacrifice of God's Son in order to be going to heaven, you sure seem eager to see other sinners punished.
Jesus said "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" I would not wish eternal punishment on my worst enemy
< Message edited by WanderingLamb -- 9/5/2009 7:32:59 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/5/2009 7:53:01 PM
|
|
|
ctpruitt
Posts: 393
Joined: 4/25/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus. Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
Mine is not an opinon; as already mentioned, you decided whether you wind up in Hell, not God. You had better get over your "problem with Hell"
and get on trying to win people to Jesus so they won't go.
I hate for Judgement Day to roll and get told by God that I could have witnessed to someone but since I did not believe in Hell anyway, I failed to do and then it will to late.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/5/2009 8:22:24 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus. Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
Well then I guess you have a more serious prob wrapping your head around Him sending His only Son to die in our place. A God who would condemn somene to hell is vicious and tormenting....but men who kill and torture children are, what?, good? Opinion? Well how about what the Bible actually says?
Hitler and a few others will be relieved no doubt
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/6/2009 2:03:40 AM
|
|
|
Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
|
WanderingLamb
quote:
One can believe and accept that scripture teaches eternal punishment, but still have a problem living at peace with that.
You have a problem living at peace with it?You do not understand the Holiness of God and the total depravity of humanity then.Do you have a problem with the creator of the universe dieing for wretched people?
quote:
I have, however, always felt horrified by the prospect of a God who IS LOVE, torturing souls for eternity.
Do you feel the same way about Christ being crushed by His Father for the wretched?
God is love indeed,but he is also a God of wrath.
How would you feel if God didn't save anyone?Would you accuse Him of being unjust?
You seem think to highly of men and too lowly of God.
quote:
And then when people say that those souls "get what they want" that's ridiculous! NOBODY wants to experience eternal torture.
Of course not,but nobody(besides the redeemed) wants to worship God in heaven for eternity either,since they would have to do what they hate and have been avoiding their entire lives.All of them are home in hell.
quote:
Do you really believe that people would not change their minds about accepting Jesus once they are in such a hell for a second?
Of course they would "accept" Him,but that is not what saves people.Repentance saves sinners,and that is not some "decision".It is the supernatural work of God.So no,they will never repent,that's why they are there.
quote:
One problem I have with the whole concept is that human beings are born, live a very short while, with limited understanding, crippled by sin. Then God sends them to be tortured for ETERNITY because of their sinful, unbelieving hearts during their short pitiful lives????? And just how does the punishment fit the crime????
Oh if you only knew who it is you are talking about!They have not sinned against men,they have not sinned against angels,they have sinned against the Holy God,the Lord without beginnings!
The worst criminals get "life" in prison because we exist in time,but to sin against the Eternal God deserves eternal punishment.Our sins are that repulsive to the Lord.Why do you think it pleased the father to crush His Son on the cross after becoming sin?Why do you think Christ's sweat was as blood in the garden of Gethsemane?It's because we was about to become sin and bear the wrath of God.
You need to be veryyy careful,you are calling God unjust.
quote:
It has given me the feeling that Satan WINS (since most believe that the majority of the human race will go to hell, not heaven), and that God is extremely harsh.
It was never a war to begin with,your awful theology leads you to think Christ failed.He did and is doing precisely what he came to do,to save His sheep.God is not weeping for the souls in Hell,it's His will.
quote:
No, I do not desire to worship such a god.
Actually you do,you worship the god of your imagination.If you knew the true God you wouldn't be saying things like this.You should fear hell a lot more than you do.
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/6/2009 2:09:53 AM
|
|
|
Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ctpruitt
quote:
ORIGINAL: Danhartleyministries
I have been a christian or a believer since age of 9 I am now 42. I find it hard to believe that I serve a vicious and tormenting God who would continuously burn his children that he says he loves for sin of rejection of his son, Jesus. Its my opinion that the second death the one that is mentioned in Revelation is where those that rejected God son and his free gift of salvation are thrown and they are no longer alive. The scriptures talk of a second death and death throughout the scriptures are consistant that it is the ceasing of life, so if this is the case and the dead are judged andthey ahve already dies to body then what is left, their spirit, so it is my humble opinion that this is where their spirit is destroyed for all of eterninty, not torturing for eternity. I welcome your opinion.
Dan Hartley,
Knoxville, TN[/size]
Mine is not an opinon; as already mentioned, you decided whether you wind up in Hell, not God. You had better get over your "problem with Hell"
and get on trying to win people to Jesus so they won't go.
I hate for Judgement Day to roll and get told by God that I could have witnessed to someone but since I did not believe in Hell anyway, I failed to do and then it will to late.
You think that's what he has to worry about?WandringLamb practically said he doesn't desire to worship the God of scripture and you think that's what he has o worry about?
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/6/2009 2:56:15 AM
|
|
|
WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
WanderingLamb
quote:
One can believe and accept that scripture teaches eternal punishment, but still have a problem living at peace with that.
You have a problem living at peace with it?You do not understand the Holiness of God and the total depravity of humanity then.Do you have a problem with the creator of the universe dieing for wretched people?
It is amazing that the creator of the universe died for wretched people such as you and me. He loved the whole world so much that he was willing to go to the cross to pay for all of our sins. Was that in vain for some? Don't you have a hard time accepting that that sacrifice was in vain, in many cases? (I'm not saying that it was in vain. I'm saying that you believe it was in vain for those who are/will be in hell)
quote:
quote:
I have, however, always felt horrified by the prospect of a God who IS LOVE, torturing souls for eternity.
Do you feel the same way about Christ being crushed by His Father for the wretched?
No. I feel immensely loved.
quote:
God is love indeed,but he is also a God of wrath.
Yes, God has wrath, but nowhere in the bible does it says that God IS wrath. It does however say that He IS LOVE. It also says, "Mercy triumphs over judgment!" James 2:13
quote:
How would you feel if God didn't save anyone?Would you accuse Him of being unjust?
No, I would accuse Him of not being merciful and compassionate. But that is all hypothetical. God does save people, and He is merciful and compassionate. He is also just.
quote:
You seem think to highly of men and too lowly of God.
nope
quote:
quote:
And then when people say that those souls "get what they want" that's ridiculous! NOBODY wants to experience eternal torture.
Of course not,but nobody(besides the redeemed) wants to worship God in heaven for eternity either,since they would have to do what they hate and have been avoiding their entire lives.All of them are home in hell.
Do you really believe that anyone is "at home" in hell?
quote:
quote:
Do you really believe that people would not change their minds about accepting Jesus once they are in such a hell for a second?
Of course they would "accept" Him,but that is not what saves people.Repentance saves sinners,and that is not some "decision".It is the supernatural work of God.So no,they will never repent,that's why they are there.
Exactly. It is only the supernatural work of God that allows anyone to be saved. How do you know that they will never repent.
quote:
quote:
One problem I have with the whole concept is that human beings are born, live a very short while, with limited understanding, crippled by sin. Then God sends them to be tortured for ETERNITY because of their sinful, unbelieving hearts during their short pitiful lives????? And just how does the punishment fit the crime????
Oh if you only knew who it is you are talking about!They have not sinned against men,they have not sinned against angels,they have sinned against the Holy God,the Lord without beginnings!
Yes, we have all sinned against the Most High, the Lord without beginnings. And the punishment for our sins was laid upon the Lamb.
quote:
The worst criminals get "life" in prison because we exist in time,but to sin against the Eternal God deserves eternal punishment.Our sins are that repulsive to the Lord.Why do you think it pleased the father to crush His Son on the cross after becoming sin?Why do you think Christ's sweat was as blood in the garden of Gethsemane?It's because we was about to become sin and bear the wrath of God.
You need to be veryyy careful,you are calling God unjust.
No, the worst criminals get DEATH (in some places anyway). Yes our sins are so repulsive to the Lord that He would crush His Son on the cross to pay the penalty. And you said it yourself, Jesus bore the wrath of God. Note He does not have to suffer for eternity for our sins. But you believe that mortal man does.
quote:
quote:
It has given me the feeling that Satan WINS (since most believe that the majority of the human race will go to hell, not heaven), and that God is extremely harsh.
It was never a war to begin with,your awful theology leads you to think Christ failed.He did and is doing precisely what he came to do,to save His sheep.God is not weeping for the souls in Hell,it's His will.
God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). Where does the bible say that it is God's will that any person, made in His image, and paid for with His Son's blood, should suffer for eternity in hell?
quote:
quote:
No, I do not desire to worship such a god.
Actually you do,you worship the god of your imagination.If you knew the true God you wouldn't be saying things like this.You should fear hell a lot more than you do.
As I said, I do not desire to worship a god that would let his creation, made in his image, suffer for all eternity for their sin. That god is a god of the imagination of men, that has been passed on through tradition.
Note I never said that God is unjust, or that He does not punish the wicked. The problem I have is with ETERNAL SUFFERING
ETERNAL SUFFERING!
Even Christ, upon whom all the sins of the whole world were laid, Christ who was made sin, Christ upon whom the wrath of God was poured out, did not have to suffer for ETERNITY!!!
The Holy Scriptures speak of a lake of fire. Also, "Our God is an all-consuming fire" it says. He purifies with His fire. And it hurts. No injustice will be left unaccounted for. Does it not say in the bible that there will be a reckoning? I am not accusing God of being unjust. You are accusing Him of being incompassionate, unmerciful, or at the least, impotent.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/7/2009 4:18:56 PM
|
|
|
Sammy_S
Posts: 671
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
|
WanderingLamb
quote:
Was that in vain for some? Don't you have a hard time accepting that that sacrifice was in vain, in many cases? (I'm not saying that it was in vain. I'm saying that you believe it was in vain for those who are/will be in hell)
Who said I believed it was in vain?Christ came to save those whom the Lord gave him,and he didn't/won't lose any of them.
quote:
Yes, God has wrath, but nowhere in the bible does it says that God IS wrath. It does however say that He IS LOVE. It also says, "Mercy triumphs over judgment!" James 2:13
Except that is not what I said is it?God is a God of wrath because his Holy nature cannot tolerate sin.It's not rocket science.I am a man of sin,but I am not sin.Big difference.
quote:
It also says, "Mercy triumphs over judgment!" James 2:13
Way to rip that verse out of it's context.This verse had NOTHING to do with God's wrath/punishment over sin.Is God showing mercy to those in hell?Yeah right.Please read the the verses before and after it,you are taking that verse out of context.
quote:
No, I would accuse Him of not being merciful and compassionate.
So you are saying God has to be merciful and compassionate!?Your god is not the God of scripture.You have no idea how wicked men are and you also have no clue about the Holiness of God.The only word I can think of for you is blasphemy.
quote:
But that is all hypothetical. God does save people, and He is merciful and compassionate.
So you are saying,because God did what you think He had to do,he is now a "good" God to you?God has met your standards?
quote:
Do you really believe that anyone is "at home" in hell?
Of course,they deserve to be there.I deserve to be there as well,but I praise God that he saved me through His grace when He didn't have to.
quote:
How do you know that they will never repent.
It's called ETERNAL condemnation for a reason and it is God who grants repentance(2 Timothy 2:25),He won't be doing that after death.
quote:
And the punishment for our sins was laid upon the Lamb
No,the punishment of the those who trust in Him were placed upon the Lamb.If it was for everyone,everyone will be saved since God was satisfied with His sacrifice.
quote:
Note He does not have to suffer for eternity for our sins. But you believe that mortal man does.
The cross of Christ is a lot worse than eternal condemnation.You deserve to be there,he didn't.You think very lowly of Christ.
quote:
God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A5A8XBRVbw&feature=fvw
quote:
Where does the bible say that it is God's will that any person, made in His image, and paid for with His Son's blood, should suffer for eternity in hell?
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
-Romans 9:18
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.
quote:
As I said, I do not desire to worship a god that would let his creation, made in his image, suffer for all eternity for their sin. That god is a god of the imagination of men, that has been passed on through tradition.
So you are saying the bible doesn't refer to God's punishment of the wicked/Hell as being eternal?
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt 25:46 (ASV)
You are an example of people denying the truth just because they have "problems" with it.As if God has to follow you.
quote:
Even Christ, upon whom all the sins of the whole world were laid, Christ who was made sin, Christ upon whom the wrath of God was poured out, did not have to suffer for ETERNITY!!!
How dare you compare wicked dusts to the King Of Glory?Christ's punishment was not eternal for several reasons:
-He is God
-He is not sinful,He is the only perfect man
-His suffering was to satisfy God,God punishes the wicked in hell because it's justice
quote:
You are accusing Him of being incompassionate, unmerciful, or at the least, impotent.
How so?I am not the one claiming God has to save people.
By the way,since you have a problem with eternal suffering,do you have a problem with eternal joy in heaven?I hope you do,if not you are a hypocrite.
< Message edited by Sammy_S -- 9/7/2009 4:25:23 PM >
_____________________________
"Peace if possible,truth at all cost"-Martin Luther
|
|
|
|
|
RE: I have serious issues with the concept of Hell - 9/8/2009 4:51:55 AM
|
|
|
WanderingLamb
Posts: 275
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: Western WA, USA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
WanderingLamb
quote:
Was that in vain for some? Don't you have a hard time accepting that that sacrifice was in vain, in many cases? (I'm not saying that it was in vain. I'm saying that you believe it was in vain for those who are/will be in hell)
Who said I believed it was in vain?Christ came to save those whom the Lord gave him,and he didn't/won't lose any of them.
quote:
Yes, God has wrath, but nowhere in the bible does it says that God IS wrath. It does however say that He IS LOVE. It also says, "Mercy triumphs over judgment!" James 2:13
Except that is not what I said is it?God is a God of wrath because his Holy nature cannot tolerate sin.It's not rocket science.I am a man of sin,but I am not sin.Big difference.
quote:
It also says, "Mercy triumphs over judgment!" James 2:13
Way to rip that verse out of it's context.This verse had NOTHING to do with God's wrath/punishment over sin.Is God showing mercy to those in hell?Yeah right.Please read the the verses before and after it,you are taking that verse out of context.
quote:
No, I would accuse Him of not being merciful and compassionate.
So you are saying God has to be merciful and compassionate!?Your god is not the God of scripture.You have no idea how wicked men are and you also have no clue about the Holiness of God.The only word I can think of for you is blasphemy.
quote:
But that is all hypothetical. God does save people, and He is merciful and compassionate.
So you are saying,because God did what you think He had to do,he is now a "good" God to you?God has met your standards?
quote:
Do you really believe that anyone is "at home" in hell?
Of course,they deserve to be there.I deserve to be there as well,but I praise God that he saved me through His grace when He didn't have to.
quote:
How do you know that they will never repent.
It's called ETERNAL condemnation for a reason and it is God who grants repentance(2 Timothy 2:25),He won't be doing that after death.
quote:
And the punishment for our sins was laid upon the Lamb
No,the punishment of the those who trust in Him were placed upon the Lamb.If it was for everyone,everyone will be saved since God was satisfied with His sacrifice.
quote:
Note He does not have to suffer for eternity for our sins. But you believe that mortal man does.
The cross of Christ is a lot worse than eternal condemnation.You deserve to be there,he didn't.You think very lowly of Christ.
quote:
God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A5A8XBRVbw&feature=fvw
quote:
Where does the bible say that it is God's will that any person, made in His image, and paid for with His Son's blood, should suffer for eternity in hell?
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
-Romans 9:18
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.
quote:
As I said, I do not desire to worship a god that would let his creation, made in his image, suffer for all eternity for their sin. That god is a god of the imagination of men, that has been passed on through tradition.
So you are saying the bible doesn't refer to God's punishment of the wicked/Hell as being eternal?
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt 25:46 (ASV)
You are an example of people denying the truth just because they have "problems" with it.As if God has to follow you.
quote:
Even Christ, upon whom all the sins of the whole world were laid, Christ who was made sin, Christ upon whom the wrath of God was poured out, did not have to suffer for ETERNITY!!!
How dare you compare wicked dusts to the King Of Glory?Christ's punishment was not eternal for several reasons:
-He is God
-He is not sinful,He is the only perfect man
-His suffering was to satisfy God,God punishes the wicked in hell because it's justice
quote:
You are accusing Him of being incompassionate, unmerciful, or at the least, impotent.
How so?I am not the one claiming God has to save people.
By the way,since you have a problem with eternal suffering,do you have a problem with eternal joy in heaven?I hope you do,if not you are a hypocrite.
Perhaps you're right, but I still have a problem with eternal suffering. But I course I don't matter. Just another heretic condemned to burn in hell forever.
Interesting youtube video. I watched some of it and will get to the rest later, but so far I am not convinced. I suppose then that you would say the "all" referred to in Isaiah 53 are not all of humanity? I have always understood it to be, and I believe most Christians do understand that to mean all of humanity. So, in your belief system, Jesus only died for the sins of some...those who are good enough to believe in him, and in an eternal hell, like you do.
I never said that God HAS to save people
I never said that God "has" to be merciful and compassionate. I just said that He IS merciful and compassionate, and that if He wasn't, I wouldn't be motivated to praise Him for such qualities. But if He was willing to let people suffer in hell for eternity when it is within His power to save them, or prevent them from existing, or whatever, He is not as compassionate or merciful as He could be.
As for references to eternity in the bible, look it up in the original language and you will find that the meaning has been changed in the translations. Does that mean that "eternal life" is not eternal? Not necessarily. I mentioned a man who has done loads and loads of study on this matter, but have not mentioned his name since most of you would label him a heretic. But here is his name anyway: L Ray Smith. Perhaps you have come across his website: http://bible-truths.com/ I'm sure you are going to bash the "hell" out of him now.
As far as God not being wrath, of course He IS NOT wrath and I was not trying to say that you claimed that. I was only making the contrast between how much of His character is about wrath, and how much of His character is about love. He has so much love in Him that there is a verse that states, "God is love." (1 John 4:8). Please do not imply I'm that stupid.
You are right: I did not show context for the verse that says mercy triumphs over judgment. It's from James 2:
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,”b also said, “Do not murder.”c If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
I see no reason that this last sentence can not be taken as a general principal, unless you believe that the verse before that contradicts it (I guess that could be interpreted as meaning that in some cases judgment triumphs over mercy, because some people are not good enough to be merciful...once again it all hinges on man's goodness according to your theology)
quote:
quote:
Even Christ, upon whom all the sins of the whole world were laid, Christ who was made sin, Christ upon whom the wrath of God was poured out, did not have to suffer for ETERNITY!!!
How dare you compare wicked dusts to the King Of Glory?Christ's punishment was not eternal for several reasons:
-He is God
-He is not sinful,He is the only perfect man
-His suffering was to satisfy God,God punishes the wicked in hell because it's justice
I'm not comparing "wicked dusts" such as you and me to the King of Glory, at least not in the way you seem to think.
Exactly as you stated: Christ's suffering satisfied God, so why does God need more suffering to satisfy Him? Oh yeah that's right, He only suffered for certain elect such as you. Oh that's right, some people aren't good enough to have faith, therefore they have to pay for their sins.
quote:
quote:
Do you really believe that anyone is "at home" in hell?
Of course,they deserve to be there.I deserve to be there as well,but I praise God that he saved me through His grace when He didn't have to.
Earlier, you (I think it was you - maybe it was someone else) stated that in hell, the people will have desires but not be able to fulfill them because they can only be fulfilled in God. So, I'm asking, how could anyone, created for God's pleasure, created to worship Him, created with the desire for Him, be"at home" in hell for eternity? I didn't ask whether they deserve to be there. We've already established the fact that we all do. There is a difference between deserving to be somewhere and being "at home" there. Home is a place of peace and joy. Also, of course God did not have to save you, or me, or anyone. He does so out of His great compassion and mercy.
quote:
It's called ETERNAL condemnation for a reason and it is God who grants repentance(2 Timothy 2:25),He won't be doing that after death.
I've already addressed the "ETERNAL" issue.
Of course it is God who grants repentence. He granted it to you, right? So why is it that He will blame those to whom He does not grant repentence, for their evil? Does God show favoritism? Why did He grant you repentence, but not those billions who will burn in hell for eternity?
He won't grant repentence after death? I don't know about that. Show me a verse that explicitly backs up your statement. One that has been translated correctly. This gets into the whole "eternity vs. aion age" issue, which is dealt with in this link
Like I said I could be wrong, but you sure have a lot of condemnation in your heart toward your fellow human beings. You ought to be spending every waking moment trying to win those people to Christ before they die to a Christless eternity. Oh, that's right, you're part of the elect, and they're not, so you could never win them anyway, since they "desire" to go to hell. Hmmm, I see some contradictions here.
Oh, and of course I have no problem with the concept of eternity in heaven. Who would? (besides those hypothetical people that want to be in hell forever) But I guess that makes me a hypocrite, and therefore unfit for heaven...dangit.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
