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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/3/2008 12:14:25 PM
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sue244
Posts: 399
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From: Colorado
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I'm not blaiming anything on Obama. Just pointing out that Bush SR had nothing to do with the recession in the 80s as someone tried to say. Bush Sr was not president during the recession of the 80s
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/3/2008 12:19:29 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1298
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quote:
History lesson FACT Bush squandered our first government SURPLUS in thirty years (4 years in a rows worth) and in his eight years in office have made us in debt to the communist Chinese for the tune of $1.5 trillion dollars!!!! Not to mention the debt ceiling increasing by an astronomical amount!!!
Then why did I lose a veritable boatload of money in the market the summer before Bush took office? The fact is that Bush inherited a recession from Clinton. Bill Clinton can thank his lucky stars that the tech/internet revolution came online during his administration, not that he had anything to do with it. That's not to say Bush didn't ham-hand it once he inherited it, because he did. But it existed before he got there.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/3/2008 12:25:07 PM
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relady
Posts: 1216
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
We going to "rescue" everyone and everything here in america? Yup, everyone except the average middle class American. We are going to get to pay for it all and if we don't have jobs, well that's just OUR FAULT for making irresponsible decisions. 
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/3/2008 12:39:35 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 870
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
The fact is that Bush inherited a recession from Clinton.
Bing Bing Bing ! we have a winner.
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/recessio.htm
That's pretty much the legacy that Clinton wants to re-write, though I know many here who are only able to soak up youtube vids won't have the patience or attention span to read it, let alone articulate a counter point with credibility.
Lot of assertions and opinions flying around on here like "Nixon did this and it caused this" or "so and so cleaned up this president's mess", but not much on facts being bantied around. They are stubborn things ya know.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/4/2008 12:35:48 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2541
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
The fact is that Bush inherited a recession from Clinton.
If that's the fact then why couldn't he "put the country back on track" in eight years by dismantling all that bad Clinton policy? He spent enough money through tax cuts and rebates to "stimulate" the economy. All we ended up with is an almost insurmountable federal debt and the economy still in the toilet. I guess he stimulated it to death!
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/4/2008 10:34:36 AM
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demolay
Posts: 94
Joined: 10/31/2008
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quote:
The fact is that Bush inherited a recession from Clinton.
Ever hear the story of the 4 blind men trying to describe an elephant by feeling different parts of it? This thread sounds a lot like that.
Well, as another blind man, let me pitch in my 2c of what I "felt" back then. Regarding the "tech bubble", I saw tech stocks trading at PE ratios of over 100:1 or more at the end of the Clinton era. 100:1!!! Cisco alone was going for over 140:1! Talk about "ripe" for a fall! Stocks were over-hyped and over-priced. I don't think there was anything anyone could have done to prevent that bubble bust.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/4/2008 1:49:22 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 870
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
The fact is that Bush inherited a recession from Clinton.
If that's the fact then why couldn't he "put the country back on track" in eight years by dismantling all that bad Clinton policy? He spent enough money through tax cuts and rebates to "stimulate" the economy. All we ended up with is an almost insurmountable federal debt and the economy still in the toilet. I guess he stimulated it to death!
You don't happen to have any of the economic figures in 2006 and the preceeding years leading up to that do you? Anything,,, like job creation, GDP growth, anything? ok. didn't think so. Your just stating what you "think" I take it.
Anything Bush had on track in the 8 years got swamped with 9-11 and housing and democrat based CRA housing loan crisis which started in 2007.
But I'll give you one last fair shot at proving your point. See if you can name any or some of his policies that leading economists have said led to this current situation.
_____________________________
Proverbs 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 5:41:53 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2022
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
democrat based CRA housing loan crisis which started in 2007.
Nice way to skew that one. Tell us, how did the effect of CRA loans on the economic downturn compare to the effect of having a nearly unregulated shadow banking system that skirted all of the laws created after the Depression?
-Dan.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 11:38:41 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Carter cleaned up Nixon's mess. He raised interest rates; something Nixon and Ford didn't have the guts to do. It cost him the election, but it saved us an even bigger recession.
So I take it you did not do too well in Economics 101.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 12:57:09 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So I take it you did not do too well in Economics 101.
Thanks
RC
Well, I got an A+ in the class, and that was the start of a long journey towards becoming a financial programmer.
When Volcker raised interest rates, he stopped the Phillips Curve- which can be seen as sort of the supply curve for the entire economy- from moving up any further. The alternative would have been to let inflation get higher and higher with the same levels of unemployment. Stopping 20% inflation, rather than 15% inflation, would have probably involved even more work by the fed, higher interest rates, and arguably, an even deeper or longer recession.
How did you do in Econ? Were you in one of those classes where "No, you're wrong, inflation is a good thing and I don't need to explain my reasoning" was encouraged as a response on test questions?
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 2:48:12 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1298
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From: The Great Sioux Empire
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quote:
If that's the fact then why couldn't he "put the country back on track" in eight years by dismantling all that bad Clinton policy?
Did I not say he ham-handed it? I did. Bush's term in office has been all but worthless on the economy. But to say the economic problems of the early 2000's "started" under Bush is disingenuous.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 2:53:09 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
Did I not say he ham-handed it? I did. Bush's term in office has been all but worthless on the economy. But to say the economic problems of the early 2000's "started" under Bush is disingenuous.
What economic problems? An asset bubble? Didn't we get a defense bubble under Reagan- well before Clinton took office? And Bush had not one but two bubbles; housing and oil. Glass-Steagall was a mistake- but the biggest mistake was the relaxation of capital requirements for banks under Bush, IMHO. Citi would still be in trouble with Glass-Steagall- it was the lax capital requirements that did them in.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 3:46:23 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 903
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What is wierd is that my family is doing better then we ever have.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 4:12:25 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2006
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom
What is wierd is that my family is doing better then we ever have.
I think I'm in better shape than I thought I'd be today back in 2003/2004. Back then, my goal was to graduate college and get a job as a programmer that paid $X/year. I wound up graduating and most of my friends and I got jobs that paid $2X.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 4:22:29 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1298
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
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quote:
What economic problems? An asset bubble? Didn't we get a defense bubble under Reagan- well before Clinton took office? And Bush had not one but two bubbles; housing and oil. Glass-Steagall was a mistake- but the biggest mistake was the relaxation of capital requirements for banks under Bush, IMHO. Citi would still be in trouble with Glass-Steagall- it was the lax capital requirements that did them in.
You can take the "who is responsible" arguments back to life under King George, macro-economically. Every administration has inherited some kind of mess from it's predecessor. Some have made things better, some worse. Only true partisans think that somehow the Whitehouse dictates good times and bad times. Ten years from now, the "real problem" will be something else. Economics, and the difficulties therein, present mostly moving targets depending upon our understanding of conditions at the moment.
You may disagree, but I studied Economics at a different time and place, not that that makes any difference seeing as how I have yet to see two Economists in a one room completely agree, no matter their study background, and have actually seen fist-fights break out in an academic panel on the subject.
Personally, I blame it all, past and present, on Keynes.
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 4:43:06 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2006
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
You may disagree, but I studied Economics at a different time and place, not that that makes any difference seeing as how I have yet to see two Economists in a one room completely agree, no matter their study background, and have actually seen fist-fights break out in an academic panel on the subject.
I agree on this. The economy is one long story of growth and consolidation, and the consolidation usually cleans up the mess that was made during the growth. And asset bubbles happened well before government intervened in the markets- just look at the railroad boom and bust of the later 19th century and the Dutch tulip craze.
However, if we are going to play the economic blame game, we should be fair. Reagan streamlined many financial regulations (though he didn't do anything particularly stupid- just removing regulations on interest rates and deregulating certain financial products), but then Clinton and Bush were the ones who caused a whole lot more trouble than Reagan- Clinton with the repeal of Glass-Steagall and Bush with a loosening of capital requirements and the removal of the uptick rule.
I think the asset bubble would have happened anyways, but maybe we could have cut the VIX by about 10 points if we had kept some of those regulations and maybe prevented a few heart attacks and suicides.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 5:17:00 PM
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demolay
Posts: 94
Joined: 10/31/2008
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Boy! Sure is a lot of talk about blaming past presidents!
But doesn't Congress control the purse strings? Don't _all_ laws originate in congress? Why is it that they don't get a share of the blame when things run amuck?
Anyone else notice that the economy seemed to do a 180 after the dems got control of congress?
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 5:24:43 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2006
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Anyone else notice that the economy seemed to do a 180 after the dems got control of congress?
If that's the case, that is a good thing. Had the bubble grown even bigger- and the DJIA reached 17,000, the fall would have been even harder. The government's job is to stop bubbles, so thank you for giving the Dems credit for doing their job. (Even though this 2006 Dem-voter doesn't think they really had much to do with the economy.)
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 5:39:21 PM
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rjd628
Posts: 44
Joined: 10/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
...
You may disagree, but I studied Economics at a different time and place, not that that makes any difference seeing as how I have yet to see two Economists in a one room completely agree, no matter their study background, and have actually seen fist-fights break out in an academic panel on the subject.
Personally, I blame it all, past and present, on Keynes.
Put 7 economists in a room and ask them a question, you'll get 8 answers - with two from Keynes.
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RE: Hey! We're in a recession! - 12/5/2008 6:02:04 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2006
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rjd628
Put 7 economists in a room and ask them a question, you'll get 8 answers - with two from Keynes.
LOL, though in the long run, Keynes is dead.
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