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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 12:15:30 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
but, if I happen to get curious one day, and happen to be in church....I just might stop in at the office and pick up the detailed budget....and i'll let ya know.....
That would be cool, I like to keep up with the trends of pastor compensation around the country as it helps me in counselling other Pastors and Churches in appropriate amounts to compensate.
If you do, be sure to check for the total compensation, salary, allowances such as housing, medical, educational for the Pastor ans their family, auto, clothing, retirement (401k, slush funds, matching contributions (or more than matching), vacation reinbursement, etc. etc. etc.. Sometimes Churches are very sneaky to spread out the compensaton so as not to show how much compensation the Pastor really draws.
I pray that the Church got passed the Barron incident without a lot of problems.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 12:32:55 PM
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rolling
Posts: 159
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Zoebob you are missing something here. Read 1Cor.12. See if you can find the bus driver, the vacuum guy, the toilet cleaner, the nursery attendant, the hedge trimmer, the visitation leader, the ushers, the flower arranger, the P.A. operater, the projector guy, the coffee and doughnuts squad. I await your research results. devon and kathy
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 1:31:27 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Zoebob you are missing something here. Read 1Cor.12. See if you can find the bus driver, the vacuum guy, the toilet cleaner, the nursery attendant, the hedge trimmer, the visitation leader, the ushers, the flower arranger, the P.A. operater, the projector guy, the coffee and doughnuts squad. I await your research results. devon and kathy
So no one should clean the toliets, or the meeting place?
Sounds like my dorm room in college> 
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 2:11:37 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
Most of us think what would we do without a church building? The same goes for tithing.
Wow, how did we get from wondering about whether full time ministers should collect a salary to doing away with tithing, particularly in a culture where the average churchgoer doesn't give anywhere near a tithe of their annual salary? Are you somehow thinking that giving would go up if we did away with tithing?
Second, as someone who spent the first 6 years building our church without a building, I know what's involved in not having one and I can tell you that the price for not having a facility can be extremely high, both in terms of the burden it places on volunteers and the impact it has on a church's ability to meet and worship (picture standing outside in a blinding snowstorm telling 60 people who got up and made it to church to go home because the building was locked and the person with the key couldn't make it). We met in schools, community centers, office buildings and, like it or not, every time we moved we lost people.
Once we got a permanent facility we grew from 150 people to 400 people in a year, and we doubled in size every 2-3 years after that. Nearly all of that growth is from new believers. On average we baptize more than 100 adults a year, have planted 5 daughter churches (2 of which still meet in rented facilities) in the last 10 years, have more than 1,000 people in small groups and have 800 active volunteers who do everything from childcare to leading worship and even teaching on Sunday.
I can also tell you that a group of about 30 people left our church to start house churches last year (with our best wishes). In the last year that group of 30 has dwindled down to 12, they have lots of disagreements, lots of strife, lack of leadership, and it's been very sad to watch because many of them are not involved in a house church, or any church.
You keep positing this view that there is something nearly magical about smaller churches, but I'm not convinced that size of the church is really an issue at all.
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 2:25:34 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1425
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
You keep positing this view that there is something nearly magical about smaller churches, but I'm not convinced that size of the church is really an issue at all.
very true...
our church, started in 1977....met for TWO years in a rented city recreation center. What does that say to many people? that the church was "temporary"....but, it did "buy" the church time to save and collect the money necessary for a permanent church building....a 700-seat church building was opened in 1980..(which the church grew out of in 2-years)....
same thing with our new "church plant" at a location 15 miles north of our "main" church....they met for almost 2 years in the gymnasium of a local high school. Much money and effort was spent on "transforming" that gym and some classrooms into something you could hold church services in each and every week. And, as happened before, the church used that time to save money for their own church building, which was just dedicated a few weeks ago.
the benefits one own's building and space FAR out weighs the "cost" of the building and upkeep.....as it is too costly NOT to have your own "space", once you have sufficient funds to build or purchase a church building.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 2:39:02 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1425
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
I pray that the Church got passed the Barron incident without a lot of problems.
yes...it was able to "move on" very quickly. That was certainly made possible through the leadership of our Pastor. Decisive action....and, no hesitation as to what the "right thing" to do was.
As a matter of fact, the Dallas Morning News Editorial Board printed an article in their newspaper, specifically applauding our pastor and the church for it's response to that unfortunate incident.
http://www.prestonwood.org/about/press.php (then click on the link that says, "Dallas Morning News Editorial: Prestonwood Church Does the Right Thing")
thanks for asking
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 3:10:46 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
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quote:
What does that say to many people? that the church was "temporary"....
It's nice to hear that we weren't the only ones with that problem - lots of people used to come check us out when we were in temporary space but it's tough to leave your kids in a school cafeteria with temporary barricades between classrooms. I don't miss those days at all.
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 3:28:11 PM
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rolling
Posts: 159
Joined: 11/14/2008
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RC, i was going to say that those things should not be left undone, but i really figured you knew that and you could figure that all the members in 1Cor.12 were operating in their spiritual functions. You where me out son. It's called 'diversionary tactics'. You do it well. I'm proud of you.
Ok GCS. You tell me what in the world is going on in 1Cor.12? I await your answer.
So far not one soul has clearified 1Cor12 to me. Just a lot of put downs and a whole lot of gobbledeggook.Is everyone on this forum afraid to read the word or what?
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 4:01:48 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
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What's going on in I Cor 12 is fairly obvious. Paul is in the midst of section of his letter responding to issues and questions raised by the church in Corinth. That section of his letters starts in Chapter 7 with the phrase "Now for the matters you wrote about" and goes through the end of Chapter 15, and addresses a variety of issues, one of which is the use of spiritual gifts.
He appears to be addressing the fact that the Corinthians valued some of the "greater gifts" and instructs the Corinthians that everyone has a spiritual gift, given by God. As such, all gifts are to be used for the body of Christ, and everyone has an equally important (but maybe not equally high profile) role to play in the body of Christ.
Based on your comment that "See if you can find the bus driver, the vacuum guy, the toilet cleaner, the nursery attendant, the hedge trimmer, the visitation leader, the ushers, the flower arranger, the P.A. operator, the projector guy, the coffee and donuts squad" you seem to think that Paul's is listing ROLES, not spiritual gifts, but that's clearly not the case.
People who work in the nursery may be exercising the gift of mercy or the gift of teaching. It's also fairly clear that his list here isn't an exhaustive list.
In Romans 12 Paul uses the same analogy and writes "so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
I don't think anyone would try to argue that Paul was making a case that gifts to be used in the Roman church are different from the gifts to be used in Corinth. He's making the point that all gifts come from God and are to be used for his glory, his body and his kingdom.
All of those gifts - those listed in 1 Cor 12, Romans 12 and Ephesians 4 can and should be used in churches of all sizes - large and small.
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 4:14:28 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
RC, i was going to say that those things should not be left undone, but i really figured you knew that and you could figure that all the members in 1Cor.12 were operating in their spiritual functions. You where me out son. It's called 'diversionary tactics'. You do it well. I'm proud of you.
I am sorry that you were(sic) out so easily.
In 1 Cor 12 there is no mention of specifically using the gifts of the Holy Spirit in a gathering, but using them where they are profitable. So maybe you should find another passage to support what you are claiming.
And include Scripture where everyone is suppose to do something in every service as I posted just the oppisite as to where the number should be limited to 2 or 3. And it seems that that limitation by Paul sorta crunches you position of all doing all; all the time.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 12/3/2008 5:42:49 PM
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rolling
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RC, it crunches nothing. Now you know how the modern church does it. Don't play games. For the most part, it is the same 2 or 3 every sunday while the rest play the paying audience. The pastor, the song leader and whoever.
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RE: Salary? - 12/4/2008 8:29:16 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
RC, it crunches nothing. Now you know how the modern church does it. Don't play games. For the most part, it is the same 2 or 3 every sunday while the rest play the paying audience. The pastor, the song leader and whoever.
I really don't get the gest of your post.
It is my understanding that the gifts of the Holy Ghost are given for folks to use as the Holy Ghost decides, and maybe the problem you feel you see is with the folks quenching the Spirit, not in the leadership.
At my Church and at the other Churches I have responsibility over; anyone is permitted to speak etc.. If what they say is in error; it is corrected immediately and publically so as to not let heresy get a foothold. We do adhere to the Scripture;
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Sadly I have visited far too many Churches that did not follow that Scripture.
I still do not understand how you are going to support your family if you minister full time and refuse to take a gift for it.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 12/5/2008 1:16:55 PM
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rolling
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Joined: 11/14/2008
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RC, one more time my friend, or how ever many times it takes. At least you got the 'lie of the tithe' right, and my hat's off to you for that.
Paul said that they who 'preach the gospel' are worthy of support. Paul refused it as a church planter but did not deny that God ordained such support. So folks in a local gathering should financially support anyone called to be a church planter/missionary, 'one who is sent'. In the first century, they did this as well as took care of the poor.
By the way there is no preaching in the local gathering. There is teaching, exortation, prophesying and the other functions and gifts out-lined in 1Cor.12 and in Rom.12.
Preaching was sharing the gospel with those who have not heard it. Missionaries. Witnessing is preaching, though no one has ever supportied me financially for 34 years for 'winessing/preaching.' Does open a can of worms, doesn't it? 
THe local fellowship is described in 1Cor.12. All ministered. Not just one guy we call the pastor. The elders or more mature, taught the word and watched over the flock. They put a lot of stock in the presence of God and His control and direction. We do not do that today. We pre-program the services and print it in bulletins and pray God blesses. And He does, at times.
Unless God gave those prescribed orders to the elders, it is out of line and defunct.
Even as Israel cried out for a king, of Which God was against, He wanted to be their King. God did bless Saul in the battles he was sent forth to fight. BUT...BUT..it was NOT God's perfect plan for the folks. God wanted to be their Shepherd and Pastor...but the folks wouldn't have it. Something's never ever change, do they??
Why can't God order the meeting? He did in the N.T. church. And He still does today for those who gather and wait upon Him, in that order, jettisoning 1700 years of traditions of men...that the N.T. warns us about.
I have had the Holy Ghost impart a word to me a thousand times while sitting in a typical church service and what coud I do? Nothing. The pastor was teaching. All are suppose to be quiet.
Not so in the N.T. church. Even when Paul had special meetings where he taught the word, it was not a monologue, but rather an open debate, an open forum, a discussion between folks.
Repetitious as this next one is: Acts 20, RC. Paul told the overseers/elders to WORK A SECULAR JOB SO THEY WOULD HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO SUPPORT THE POOR.
You will not find the 'single pastor' concept in the word. The word 'pastors', plural is what you will find. Poimen/shepherds/pastors/overseers/elders/bishops, all synonomous.
The first gathering operated as a corporate body whereby the Holy Spirit could operate through all his 'body parts' in the Meeting. 2 or 3 at a time, everything done decently and in order. This was 'in order'. What we call 'church' today is abhorrently out of 'order'.
Someone said 'see rolling. 2 or 3 led the meeting.' But I maintain that the 2 or 3 simply refers to being considerate and waiting on others lest chaos insue. It also would be a far stretch to maintain that the 2 or 3 are the same 3 folks 'doing it all' week after week for the next 50 years on pay-roll while everyone else sits muted.
Why not at least try it. Wait upon God when you come together. Ask Jesus to take control. Maybe even ask Him to forgive us for relegating Him to the back of the bus for the last 1700 years. See if He indeed would dare take His rightful position as Head of His body. Try it for a month. I know He would not disappoint nor ignore the honest effort. But if the effort was made just to prove me and others like me that we are dead wrong....chances are God will not bother with you.
The biggest hindrance I forsee, is that those who are on payroll may fear loosing their esteemed position. Especially if the mere laity began to prophesy or exort under the anointed ministry of the Holy Spirit. If you can refuse to be swayed by mammon, and get to that point where God honors the honest endeavor, You will not want to revert back to 'business as usual'.
I pray to God I'm not just spinning my wheels here. God bless the honest seekers...truly. devon and kathy www.truthforfree.com for further study.
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RE: Salary? - 12/5/2008 2:47:03 PM
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writerchick
Posts: 225
Joined: 10/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
RC, one more time my friend, or how ever many times it takes. At least you got the 'lie of the tithe' right, and my hat's off to you for that.
Paul said that they who 'preach the gospel' are worthy of support. Paul refused it as a church planter but did not deny that God ordained such support. So folks in a local gathering should financially support anyone called to be a church planter/missionary, 'one who is sent'. In the first century, they did this as well as took care of the poor.
By the way there is no preaching in the local gathering. There is teaching, exortation, prophesying and the other functions and gifts out-lined in 1Cor.12 and in Rom.12.
Preaching was sharing the gospel with those who have not heard it. Missionaries. Witnessing is preaching, though no one has ever supportied me financially for 34 years for 'winessing/preaching.' Does open a can of worms, doesn't it?
Actually, it doesn't. Teaching, exhortation, and prophesying are all a part of preaching. Or at least they can be depending on the subject. As an example, my pastor spent the better part of last year taking us through the book of John. He taught us from it passage by passage.
quote:
THe local fellowship is described in 1Cor.12. All ministered. Not just one guy we call the pastor.
Ministry is more than simply preaching on Sunday mornings to a captive audience. As others have already pointed out, the person working in the nursery is ministering to the children so their parents can pay attention to the service. Ushers minister when they greet people and help them find seats. Deacons minister when they take the offering and process it.
quote:
The elders or more mature, taught the word and watched over the flock. They put a lot of stock in the presence of God and His control and direction. We do not do that today. We pre-program the services and print it in bulletins and pray God blesses. And He does, at times. Unless God gave those prescribed orders to the elders, it is out of line and defunct.
Even as Israel cried out for a king, of Which God was against, He wanted to be their King. God did bless Saul in the battles he was sent forth to fight. BUT...BUT..it was NOT God's perfect plan for the folks. God wanted to be their Shepherd and Pastor...but the folks wouldn't have it. Something's never ever change, do they??
Why can't God order the meeting? He did in the N.T. church. And He still does today for those who gather and wait upon Him, in that order, jettisoning 1700 years of traditions of men...that the N.T. warns us about.
To be quite honest, it is a fallacy for you to assume that just because something is pre-printed, that it hasn't been prayed over and directed by God ahead of time. Just because we don't show up until Sunday, doesn't mean that God wasn't already there on Saturday.
I don't know about your church, but the Holy Spirit is allowed to move when and how He chooses in mine. At that point, the program is more of a suggestion than anything set in stone anyway.
quote:
I have had the Holy Ghost impart a word to me a thousand times while sitting in a typical church service and what coud I do? Nothing. The pastor was teaching. All are suppose to be quiet.
Not so in the N.T. church. Even when Paul had special meetings where he taught the word, it was not a monologue, but rather an open debate, an open forum, a discussion between folks.
Repetitious as this next one is: Acts 20, RC. Paul told the overseers/elders to WORK A SECULAR JOB SO THEY WOULD HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO SUPPORT THE POOR.
You will not find the 'single pastor' concept in the word. The word 'pastors', plural is what you will find. Poimen/shepherds/pastors/overseers/elders/bishops, all synonomous.
The first gathering operated as a corporate body whereby the Holy Spirit could operate through all his 'body parts' in the Meeting. 2 or 3 at a time, everything done decently and in order. This was 'in order'. What we call 'church' today is abhorrently out of 'order'.
Pardon my skepticism here, but if you had truly received a word from the Spirit in this instance then He would have also provided an opportunity for you to share it. He doesn't start any work that He doesn't complete. Since you didn't have this opportunity, you may want to consider that the word you got wasn't from the Holy Spirit, but from a different spirit altogether. You weren't given the opportunity because a house divided on itself cannot stand. You speaking at that point would've divided the house.
quote:
Someone said 'see rolling. 2 or 3 led the meeting.' But I maintain that the 2 or 3 simply refers to being considerate and waiting on others lest chaos insue. It also would be a far stretch to maintain that the 2 or 3 are the same 3 folks 'doing it all' week after week for the next 50 years on pay-roll while everyone else sits muted.
Why not at least try it. Wait upon God when you come together. Ask Jesus to take control. Maybe even ask Him to forgive us for relegating Him to the back of the bus for the last 1700 years. See if He indeed would dare take His rightful position as Head of His body. Try it for a month. I know He would not disappoint nor ignore the honest effort. But if the effort was made just to prove me and others like me that we are dead wrong....chances are God will not bother with you.
The biggest hindrance I forsee, is that those who are on payroll may fear loosing their esteemed position. Especially if the mere laity began to prophesy or exort under the anointed ministry of the Holy Spirit. If you can refuse to be swayed by mammon, and get to that point where God honors the honest endeavor, You will not want to revert back to 'business as usual'.
I pray to God I'm not just spinning my wheels here. God bless the honest seekers...truly. devon and kathy www.truthforfree.com for further study.
Nice way to hedge your bets.
If you want to attend a discussion session then do it. Then your "2 or 3" can minister and trade off 'til your little heart is content. This would be the forum for this kind of thing to happen and still remain decent and order. Unless the pastor has invited you to speak from the pulpit then you must remain decent and in order by keeping silent. Like it or not, God has ordained that pastor to be the angel of the house and you are to submit to his authority.
If you are truly called to speak, then go about it the right way - seminary would be a good start - and trust God to open up opportunities for you instead of complaining about not getting your turn at the podium and searching out scriptures you feel prove your case.
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RE: Salary? - 12/5/2008 3:38:59 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
By the way there is no preaching in the local gathering. There is teaching, exortation, prophesying and the other functions and gifts out-lined in 1Cor.12 and in Rom.12.
Wow there is so much misunderstanding in your post that I hardly know where to start.
First, there is not one word in 1 Cor 12 about a Church service; it is about individual gifts that Christians may or may not be able to use; depending on the Holy Spirit. (Please read 1 Cor 14 for instructions about a gathering (church).
quote:
Preaching was sharing the gospel with those who have not heard it. Missionaries. Witnessing is preaching, though no one has ever supportied me financially for 34 years for 'winessing/preaching.' Does open a can of worms, doesn't it?
You are speaking of Evangelizing, bringing the Gospel to the lost; this has noting to do with a Church gathering.
quote:
THe local fellowship is described in 1Cor.12.
There is no local fellowship addressed in 1 Cor 12.
quote:
All ministered. Unless God gave those prescribed orders to the elders, it is out of line and defunct.
Wrong; When Paul addresses a local meeting in 1 Cor 14 he speaks to 2 or 3 ministering, now he does say that all may have something, but specifically says 2 or 2.
quote:
Someone said 'see rolling. 2 or 3 led the meeting.' But I maintain that the 2 or 3 simply refers to being considerate and waiting on others lest chaos insue. It also would be a far stretch to maintain that the 2 or 3 are the same 3 folks 'doing it all' week after week for the next 50 years on pay-roll while everyone else sits muted.
So are you in such denial that you say when Scriptgure says 2 or 3 it does not mean 2 or 3?
quote:
I have had the Holy Ghost impart a word to me a thousand times while sitting in a typical church service and what coud I do? Nothing.
Just because you had a thought does not mean it was a "Word" from God that you were to give to all.
Remember Balam's mule, God gave hem a word, but I promise you that every time after that incident that the mule went "Heh-haw" it was not God, please consider this.
quote:
The biggest hindrance I forsee, is that those who are on payroll may fear loosing their esteemed position. Especially if the mere laity began to prophesy or exort under the anointed ministry of the Holy Spirit. If you can refuse to be swayed by mammon, and get to that point where God honors the honest endeavor, You will not want to revert back to 'business as usual'.
I consider that to be the rant of a cynical person who feels they are being overlooked in the scheme of things.
Also, would you please show me where Elders are Pastors; since Pastors are a gift from Jesus to His Chruch;
(Eph 4:11) And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
(Eph 4:12) for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
(Eph 4:13) And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
and elders seem to be something else altogether?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 12/5/2008 6:05:28 PM
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rolling
Posts: 159
Joined: 11/14/2008
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What more can i say. Except that I do have an oppurtunity to teach. What do you think I've been doing here? As far as not being able to teach in the Institution, well golly..the word covers that to. 'Cast outta the synagogue'. 'The time will come when they will NOT endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves [prosperity teachers].' 'Shake the dust..' 'Verily will I find any faith when [I return].' How about the Laodecian church condition? Naaaah...couldn't be us......could it??? As far as your slam about me '...at my hearts content'. Sounds like a slam to me. What more can I expect from a back slidden church. Not much more. The prophets of old ...oh well. I'll quit.
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RE: Salary? - 12/5/2008 6:46:03 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
.... 'The time will come when they will NOT endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves [prosperity teachers].' 'Shake the dust..' 'Verily will I find any faith when [I return].' How about the Laodecian church condition? Naaaah...couldn't be us......could it??? As far as your slam about me '...at my hearts content'. Sounds like a slam to me. What more can I expect from a back slidden church. Not much more. The prophets of old ...oh well. I'll quit.
Speak for yourself; as for me I see a vibrrant remnant of true Believers that is taking the Good News to a lost and dying generation, and growing the Saints unto the stature of the fullness of Christ.
maybe it is just a half-full glass vs. a half-empty glass attitude that separates un on this. I see today's Church as positive, and you see it as negative. Go figure.
But that could just be me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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