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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 2:13:39 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
RC! In order to teach The Word of God, must not one make efforts and some blunders until one becomes sharp enough to divide rightly? .
I can find no Scripture that says one must preach error to eventually find the truth to preach.
If you know of some; please post it.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 2:52:46 PM
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rolling
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In Acts 14 verses 21-23 they returned to 3 cities to confirm or validate the disciples. Also at this time they acknowledged those that reached a certain semblance of maturity and appointed them as the elders. THat is pretty much what we do today except we tend to elevate said elders above the other believers in the worldly fashion condemned by Christ in Matt.2o:25-28 '
24And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Note the 'But it shall NOT be so among you.'
Why is Christ such a spoil sport here?
Reason" verse 24 'And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.'
What were they so upset about? Go back and read the whole story. A couple of them wanted the preeminence with Christ. They wanted to be a couple of top dogs. They wanted a higher more elevated position. An office of recognition.
What we have here is the sin of arrogance and pride. The other disciples answered it with the sin of envy and jealousy. These sins are unavoidable within the modern institutional church of the clerical and laity, the upper class and the lower class. Not all are touched by these sins. Many are glad to be part of the larger group where nothing is expected of them, except their tithes of course. They go through life warming a pew, making few trembles in the realms of hell.
But getting back to Christ's own words 'But it shall not be so among you.' Nothing short of a divine revelation will clear this up I think. The 2 seperate M.O.'s are hardly discernable without having experienced the N.T. mould first hand. When a person does, they can hardly revert back to 'business as usual' when it comes to our 'gathering together'. devon and kathy
< Message edited by rolling -- 11/25/2008 3:12:03 PM >
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 3:08:31 PM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3878
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quote:
Please go back and read my other posts.
ok.
quote:
Not much left to do to warrant a one man show with parsonage, salary and retirement account.
I have never met an elder who has turned down a paycheck offer or an offer to be positioned above others. The flesh is way to weak here.
He cannot with all of our pre packaged religious services and programs.
Pay the professional, sit and be entertained.
Then came the 'pastors'. They stepped in and quenched it by telling all these new converts that they needed to start going to a 'real church' and submit themselves to the pastors. The revival came to an end.
They were servants not kings.
A pastor working 70 hours a week??? Give me book, chapter and verse. One man was never called to 'do it all'. It's a body with body parts, all functional. What's so hard to figure here? What we have morphed into is worse than a paraplegia.
The Monster!
Funny looking varment I saw today, a creature like a science fiction movie display:
no legs, no arms, no sinews, no bands; no bones, no hair, no feet and no hands;
no torso, no neck, no nose, no eyes; so what was this monster that caused me surprise?;
twas the 'church' I beheld that brought me to tears, one single mouth and a whole bunch of ears!;
God saves Jack. He starts going to 'church'. The pastor is 20. He plans on pastoring until he is 80. That's 60 years. Jack must wait and clean toilets for 60 years before he can have a chance to teach or exort or prophesy to the folks in the Spirit.
But one problem. There are 5 others guys ahead of him waiting for that same 'position'. So Jacks chances of ever excercizing his gifts and functions in the meeting are fried from the git -go.
So God is cheated out of operating through all His children, and all the children are cheated out of that close walk and experience with Christ. The number one purpose of the gathering was so the folks could 'edify one another'. Not to just sit and say amen week after week to the same movie star spouting from the pulpit...pulpit? where did that come from?
They are not to dominate every meeting.
'Great message. But the service is over now. So when do we get a chance to use our functions?'
That's a far cry from a salary, new car, parsonage and a retirement plan which most 'pastors' have today.
Not ' My office with a shingle and paycheck is to rule and command, and dominate over the folks.
Having reread your posts, it's clear to me that your problem isn't just with, if a pastor should get a salary, but with pastors period. And not just pastors, but the church as a whole.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 3:19:44 PM
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gcsmithjr
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Rolling-
Your entire argument is based on the worst kind of prooftexting (trying to make a particular text applicable across the whole of scripture).
First of all, you ignore (or dismiss) 1 Tim 5:17 which seems to clearly indicate that certain elders are "worthy of their wages".
Then you go on to try to exclude the possibility of paying individuals engaged in ministry based on verses that refer to the entire body without any specific reference to the issue that you're talking about.
I'd like to know where in scripture it prohibits churches from paying a pastor for using his gifts to further the kingdom. There are any number of practices that are common in the church today that aren't mandated by scripture - that doesn't make them wrong.
Apart from all of your arguments, Acts 4 makes it clear that, in the early church, the believers shared their possessions so that everyone had what they needed. At the very least, believers have the right to choose to give of their own means to support those who minister in one way or another at their discretion:
"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need."
If I choose to share my possessions so that they can be distributed to those in full-time ministry, why do you take issue with that.
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 3:23:11 PM
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sparkleingsnow
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rolling, I must admit that I take exception to some of the ways you word things, but I want to respond to you in a loving way. That is what we are to do. Love each other, help each other, encourage each other.
quote:
Read your 'Strongs'.
I find the tone here kind of sharp, but as a matter of fact I do use my Strongs frequently. Strongs is a tool, the Bible is God's word.
quote:
And please note. Food was a basic need. Meals were acceptable. That's a far cry from a salary, new car, parsonage and a retirement plan which most 'pastors' have today.
Last I checked, it still is. But the way we get it now a days is to buy it. The funds to do so we give praise to the Lord for. But unless you want to move us all to a commune somewhere, the people who serve the Lord full time still need money to feed they're family. To put a roof over there head, and clothing on they're children's backs.
quote:
The poor are to be our main focus to support.
Yes, we are to support the poor, and not just the poor in money matters, but the poor in health, the poor in spirit, ect. We the whole body (as you yourself pointed out), are to help and encourage one another. Just because one pastor stands up on Sunday morning and gives a "message" and is paid for that and all the 100 and 1 other things he does, doen't change any of that.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 3:24:51 PM
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rolling
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We are in the last days. THe Laodecian church. You remember the sermons on this. Am I to remain silent? Am I to remain shackled by the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy in the institutional church? When I see the clear word on issues that run afoul of modern pulpit teaching, am I to cower and run or just shut up and pay up. You judge. Simply say 'I don't agree,' and I'll move on. God bless. devon and kathy
P.S. PLease forgive me for any percieved tone. I'm just having to repeat things from the word over and over and over again. I grow weary. I feel i need to bow out of this forum for now.
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 6:07:16 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
We are in the last days. THe Laodecian church. You remember the sermons on this. Am I to remain silent? Am I to remain shackled by the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy in the institutional church? When I see the clear word on issues that run afoul of modern pulpit teaching, am I to cower and run or just shut up and pay up. You judge. Simply say 'I don't agree,' and I'll move on. God bless. devon and kathy
Rolling,
Just because someone (you for instance) thinks something; does not make it true.
That is why we have the simplistic Word of God as our guide.
I also ask as Kat_D has already ask; how you are going to support your family if and when you go into the ministry?
And have you responded yet to this verse;
Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
And one other quick queston; where di Jesus get his monies at for food, clothing, etc.?
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/25/2008 6:15:10 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 6:49:35 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
PLease forgive me for any percieved tone. I'm just having to repeat things from the word over and over and over again. I grow weary. I feel i need to bow out of this forum for now.
You think you are weary answering a few questions, just wait until you get a building full of folks for which you are responsible to God for their souls.
(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Then you will have a whole different outlook on the definition of weary.
And throw in 50 or 60 hours a week at a job because you don't see where a worknam is worth of pay; then you will know weary.
Welcome to the club.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 7:06:09 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3039
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
Rolling-
Your entire argument is based on the worst kind of prooftexting (trying to make a particular text applicable across the whole of scripture).
Ain't that the truth!!!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 7:33:16 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
Rolling-
Your entire argument is based on the worst kind of prooftexting (trying to make a particular text applicable across the whole of scripture).
Ain't that the truth!!!
I always have termed it as grabbing a text and trying to make it walk on all fours.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Salary? - 11/26/2008 12:11:43 AM
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Ps103
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quote:
You judge. Simply say 'I don't agree,' and I'll move on.
I don't agree.
Next topic?
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 2:10:19 PM
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PastorPatricia
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Gee if they didn't pay me how would I maintain my opulent life style??????????
_____________________________
But be sure to fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you. Is. 12:24
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 2:33:10 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorPatricia
Gee if they didn't pay me how would I maintain my opulent life style??????????
I certainly catch your tongue in cheek here, but it does bring up a good subject; How much should a Pastor be paid?
I teach that Ideally the Pastor should recieve about the mean average yearly income of the congregation that he is responsible for; and that can vary a lot.
In a rural setting such as I am in; it is not expensive to dress like others dress ( I ususlaly werar jeans a pull over golf shirt and cowboy boots), and when I take someone to linch it is either Sonic or biscuits and gravy at "Suzy's Place". If I was to buy a high dollar car it would be very much out of place.
But if I were a Pasor in say the Woodlsnds area of Houston Texas it would cedrtainly be different. To "Fit" in with the congregation would be considerably more expensive.
Now as I have said; I do not draw a salary (except one dollar a year for insurance purposes), but do take gifts from the folks I minister to. It works for me and always has as God always meets my needs (maybe not my wants, but certainly my needs).
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 3:02:36 PM
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gcsmithjr
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quote:
I teach that Ideally the Pastor should receive about the mean average yearly income of the congregation that he is responsible for
I don't totally agree with that standard for setting pastor's salaries. It doesn't take into account the size of the church or the pastor's experience. Would you advocate that a 29-year old solo pastor of a congregation of 30 families should get the paid the same amount as a 55-year old senior pastor of a congregation of 500 families if the average yearly income of the two congregations is similar?
NACBA publishes a great guide to setting church salaries that takes into account the location of the church by region, the size of the church and budget, the pastor's tenure at the church, and overall experience. When we set our staff salaries we use the NACBA guidelines as a starting point and then adjust based on any "special" lifestyle factors (like having 4 kids, kids in college or special medical needs).
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 5:12:59 PM
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rolling
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If there ae 500 families in one 'gathering', how is 1Cor.12 to be realized?
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 5:21:27 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
quote:
I teach that Ideally the Pastor should receive about the mean average yearly income of the congregation that he is responsible for
I don't totally agree with that standard for setting pastor's salaries. It doesn't take into account the size of the church or the pastor's experience. Would you advocate that a 29-year old solo pastor of a congregation of 30 families should get the paid the same amount as a 55-year old senior pastor of a congregation of 500 families if the average yearly income of the two congregations is similar?
NACBA publishes a great guide to setting church salaries that takes into account the location of the church by region, the size of the church and budget, the pastor's tenure at the church, and overall experience. When we set our staff salaries we use the NACBA guidelines as a starting point and then adjust based on any "special" lifestyle factors (like having 4 kids, kids in college or special medical needs).
Well it is just my opinioon of course, but I think we err trying to apply secular corprotate ideas of leadership and compensaton to a Minister of God's Word.
It would only take ten families giving ten percent of their income to the Pastor to give him a mean average income of the congregation. Anything above that could be spent where ever the Elders decided to spend it.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 6:55:36 PM
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rolling
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I've been busy re-doing my kitchen. My heart problem slows me down some. I can see all of you group hugging together because I can't keep up with 50 questions a day. 
Apostle: a delegate, one who is sent.
Now if you read the accounts of the works of the apostles, you'll find that they went preaching the word and establishing the saints in the faith.
How recommending some good material for further study is a sin baffles me...but yet it doesn't baffle me. The extra research are for those who would like to invetigate further. For them, there is no problem with it. For the rest of you, I love ya to death..God bless.
Gotta go. Happy Thanksgiving. devon and kathy
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 6:59:44 PM
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rolling
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RC, what you or I say is meaningless, unless it aligns with the word. This I know you agree with me on.
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 7:28:51 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
RC, what you or I say is meaningless, unless it aligns with the word. This I know you agree with me on.
Rolling, would you car to finish that thought?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 9:44:15 PM
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gcsmithjr
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Joined: 11/23/2008
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I don't have any idea why the size of the gathering would have anything to do with 1 Cor 5:12.
It seems fairly clear from reading the book of Acts that the church in Jerusalem was comprised of hundreds of people:
- Acts 2:47: the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
- Acts 5:12, 14: The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade...Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number.
- Acts 6:7: So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.
There is nothing inherently more biblical or spiritual about a small church than a large church, Jesus was pretty clear in Matthew 7 that he's more concerned about the fruit that we bear.
There are large churches that do an outstanding job of preaching the word, calling people to repentance, baptizing new believers and discipling them to maturity in an environment where believers are accountable, and there are small churches that do a lousy job of all of those things. The number of people in the gathering isn't really all that relevant.
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RE: Salary? - 11/27/2008 9:59:08 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 111
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
I think we err trying to apply secular corporate ideas of leadership and compensation to a Minister of God's Word.
I don't see anything particularly corporate about paying pastors based on their tenure, their skill and their specific lifestyle needs. I certainly would never advocate paying a pastor based solely on the size of their church.
quote:
It would only take ten families giving ten percent of their income to the Pastor to give him a mean average income of the congregation. Anything above that could be spent where ever the Elders decided to spend it.
That's true, but in most churches - even the small ones - the Pastor's salary is only a small portion of the budget (and I don't think we have enough pastors out there to have a church for every 10 families). The median church in the U.S. has 75 Sunday morning attendees, and pays their pastor $35,000 a year which is nothing near what the average American earns in a year (not to mention the fact that most pastors have at least a college degree, and many have a graduate degree or two). In addition to being a calling, being a pastor is a vocation. I believe that whenever possible, we should pay pastors accordingly.
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RE: Salary? - 11/28/2008 8:19:16 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
RC, what you or I say is meaningless, unless it aligns with the word. This I know you agree with me on.
Now rhat is something that we can agree on.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/28/2008 2:48:54 PM
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rolling
Posts: 159
Joined: 11/14/2008
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When you are in a group, let's say, of more than 20 people, it tends to spread your butter a little thin. What I mean is more than twenty and up to a 5,000 member gathering, you may as well forget ever using your own particular gift/function.
In the first century, they went from house to house which would mean a small number of folks in fellowship, about 3 families per house. This would would provide conduciveness for the operation of the Holy Spirit in all members.....1Cor. 12. I'm talking about the functions of the Spirit wrongly called gifts. The gifts are in Rom. 12.
Anyway, if the group is to big, 1Cor. 12 cannot be realized in an all inclusive manner. From house to house. Has anybody here experienced what I'm saying here? devon and kathy
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