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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 5:50:16 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 1167
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From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
We're still waiting to hear his definition of "Apostle."
Haven't you heard? An apostle is anyone who calls himself one or gets a few people to do so. Or buys a certificate.
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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 9:37:13 PM
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BenQuebec
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He hasn't answered my questions either. Instead of answering and/or clarifying, he'd like us to read someone's books.
I'm come to the conclusions that it's all about semantics. A pastor can receive income/revenue via donations from God's people, which is supposedly different from a salary.
I say "po-TAY-to, po-TAH-to." Same difference. Much ado about nothing.
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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 9:45:43 PM
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rolling
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Strongs concordance says it all. Honour means honour. 0psonion is the greek meaning wages or real money. This is not the noun used for honour. teemay is used denoting esteem, dignity, honor. Also can be used for wages. Why wasn't opsonion used here which is clearly wages or money?
But all the other verses where teemay is used it clearly denotes honour. 1Cor.12:23 says we are to pour upon the less comely parts more abundant honour. Teemay again is used here. If it were money , are we to pour upon the less comely parts 'more abundant money?' To help the poor is our duty but this verse is hardly saying that.
In light of Acts 20, where the elders are told to work jobs and support the poor, honour would seem to be the correct interpretation. Also elders are not to be covetous or greedy for gain lest they turn in to mere hirelings with vested interests.
Also, once again, 1Cor.12 shows everyone ministering in the Spirit, which was the hallmark of the first century 'church'. Where then in history or in scripture was all that discontinued and one man was hired to do it all....ministry that is? If all the elders were told to work jobs in Acts 20, where in the scriptures was that turned on it's head and one man was told to quit his day job and go full time in the local body? I'm tired. Gotta take a break folks. Yall ware me out. 
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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 9:54:40 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3039
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From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
I'm tired. Gotta take a break folks. Yall ware me out.
Well, you didn't expect to come here and make an absurd statement (biblically unfounded that it is) that pastors shouldn't be compensated but apostles (whatever they are) should, without us jumping all over that, did you?
You know, I'd think I'd faint if you ever just once gave a straight answer to any of the questions that have been asked of you.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 10:04:15 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
in light of Acts 20, where the elders are told to work jobs and support the poor, honour would seem to be the correct interpretation. Also elders are not to be covetous or greedy for gain lest they turn in to mere hirelings with vested interests.
rolling,
Even if your interpretation of Acts 20 is correct, it is speaking to Elders (Pastors are not mentioned)
Pastors are spoken of in;
(Eph 4:10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
As part of the five fold ministry leadership that Christ set up to instruct the Church and listed right in the same sentence as Apostles, Prophets, and Evangelist.
Why do you insist that they are Elders? Is it just so you can claim they should not recieve compensation.
And by the way that voice on your blogg is the most overly pius sounding religious got a giant murf sounding thing I have ever heard. I would suggest you change it.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/24/2008 8:14:57 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6364
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Since when is not answering any questions equal being worn out?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Salary? - 11/24/2008 9:07:49 AM
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buckifn
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quote:
he'd like us to read someone's books.
That sounds like what all this was about...someone promoting a book by some author I never heard of and this forum gave him what he wanted...an audience.
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RE: Salary? - 11/24/2008 10:09:17 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
The clergy laity divide. Interesting video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnAYSQrCtYw
The guy makes one good point that the idea of Clergy Apostles, Propphets, Evangelist, Pastors and Teachers, Elders, Bishops, and Deacons and tghe laity came on the Church early.
It came in the Book of Acts and in the Epistles, mandated by God and written down by the through the influence of the Holy Spirit for us to understand and to read;
This point that some are called to lead and some are to follow those leaders is evident from the second chapter of Acts (That would be the day the Church was sanctioned by the Ho;y Spirit. The Ap;ostles (The Apostles not the whole of the 120 in the upper room started Evangelizing the unbelievers that were there that day).
Another really plain example is in Acts 6.
Where the Apostles told the laity to;
.(Act 6:3) Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
(Act 6:4) But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
The laity were to choose seven, who would be appointed by the Apostles to oversee the distribution.
There are three "Levels" of authority here; the Apostles over the seven, the seven being over the laity in the area of passing out food.
In the following the Word of God is very plain in the area of leadership and those being led;
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The ministry gifts to the Church; those chosen by Christ to be an Apostle, Prophets, Evangelist, or a Pastor and teacher are to lead, teach, and edify the Body of Christ (the Church).
Another place in the Word of God that plainly defines Leadership and laity is;
(Heb 13:7) Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Clearly pointing out a leadership and those being led.
So I percieve that this movement to disallow the leadership which Christ set into place in His Church is rebellion to Scripture and to God. It is the same sin that satan committed when he rebelled against God and the leadership that God had set up so many eons ago.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/24/2008 10:23:00 AM
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rolling
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They are to lead by example. The less mature saints are to be persuaded by their word and example. They are not to dominate every meeting. 1Cor12. They are not to 'lord it over Christ's heritage.' As a father teaches their child how to drive a car. Once they learn, then the father has to get out of the driver's seat and let the teenager drive. What we have in the institutional church today is one or a handful of teachers and a group of students that never graduate. The problem here is that we have taken into the church the world's form of authority which Jesus condemned. When the holy Spirit is truly given full reign....by waiting upon Him, then 1Cor12 can be realized. Teach and instruct...but then cut the folks loose so they can operate in their respective functions in the meeting.
I heard a preacher preaching on 1Cor.12 last summer at the church where we were at. How all the body parts are to start using their functions in the service. He was hitting the folks hard for not doing so. How can they when the same guy does the service every week?
I was dumbfounded. I went to him at the end of the service and said 'Great message. But the service is over now. So when do we get a chance to use our functions?' He looked at me with a puzzled look. He didn't get it. He just grinned a silly grin and that was the end of that.
There seems to be sort of a veil over this deal. I didn't see it for about 27 years, so i understand. I'm not stomping on nobody here. I'm the slowest learner on the planet. Please believe that. Please pray about this. It is so important I believe. devon and kathy
< Message edited by rolling -- 11/24/2008 10:33:47 AM >
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RE: Salary? - 11/24/2008 10:50:48 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3039
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
They are to lead by example. The less mature saints are to be persuaded by their word and example. They are not to dominate every meeting. 1Cor12. They are not to 'lord it over Christ's heritage.'
Translation: They (pastors) should allow anyone who calls himself "anointed" or thinks he has the "gift of teaching" to take control of his pulpit and preach anything they want to the sheep God has entrusted him with.
And, whoa to him if he doesn't!! Bad things will happen to him (like his camper canopy will fly off) and those "anointed" ones will become angry and bitter; leave the church; make up their own model of what a church should be and appoint themselves to recruit other disgruntled "anointed" to do the same.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Salary? - 11/24/2008 11:04:58 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3878
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quote:
Original: rolling
I heard a preacher preaching on 1Cor.12 last summer at the church where we were at. How all the body parts are to start using their functions in the service. He was hitting the folks hard for not doing so. How can they when the same guy does the service every week?
I was dumbfounded. I went to him at the end of the service and said 'Great message. But the service is over now. So when do we get a chance to use our functions?' He looked at me with a puzzled look. He didn't get it.
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Yes we should use our "functions" in the service of the Lord. But not all functions are done during the worship service. (Some are, such as greeters, song leaders, music players, singers, prayer givers, offering takers, ect.) How about sunday school teachers, bible study leaders, youth leaders, vbs workers, people who clean or do repairs on the church, people who help do paper work, people who are listeners, prayer givers, visitors, card senders, ect, ect, who give of they'er time and skills. Most of it is not done during the worship servce, or by one person, but by the body as a whole, throughout the week.
I dare say that is what this pastor was talking about.
I don't follow any earthly man blindly, pastor or not. If what he teaches doesn't line up with the word of God, I have no use for it. Pastors are to lead and yes there are some who use this power amiss, but a good pastor leads and teaches and helps the church to grow. I see nothing wrong with having one man do this job, or for paying him so he can study, and teach, and help full time. That doesn't mean he does all the work and that doesn't mean he makes all the decisions.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Salary? - 11/24/2008 11:09:28 AM
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sparkleingsnow
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And rolling, you still havn't responded to this verse.
quote:
Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 9:11:14 AM
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rolling
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Please go back and read my other posts. THe missionaries are entitled to financial support. The missionary and apostles work were the same. They were church planters. Paul would start a church, work with it to get it going then leave it. He would return later to recognize the elders that naturally surfaced.And please note. Food was a basic need. Meals were acceptable. That's a far cry from a salary, new car, parsonage and a retirement plan which most 'pastors' have today. Again, church planters were sent out to where the word was not heard yet.
3John reads: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
Websters New World Dictioary defines preeminence as 'to project forward, eminent ABOVE others, excelling others,prominent, surpassing others.'
You cannot tell me that the 'pastor' doesn't fit these descriptions. Is John condemning this form of hiearchy in this verse or is he sanctioning it?
Organization, corporate style with ceo and lower workers is not what God ordained or wants. Read your 'Strongs'. Function was changed to office. To lead was changed to rule over. To look diligenty was changed to oversight.
'My function as a father to my children is to lead them with care and watch them with care.'
Not ' My office with a shingle and paycheck is to rule and command, and dominate over the folks. There is a very big difference. It's the language used that makes that difference.
When King James gave the go ahead for the writers to produce the King James Version, he laid out the rules of interpretation. They made these changes so as to solidify the king's control over the churches who had the control over the people. Thereby the king could control the folks.
The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy at www.truthforfree.com covers this subject thoroughly. I know some will cuss me for mentioning an article [gasp], but there is no way I can produce the tons of info here. So please don't be mad. 'I are not perfect....as some.'
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< Message edited by rolling -- 11/25/2008 9:26:33 AM >
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 9:26:19 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8878
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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quote:
That's a far cry from a salary, new car, parsonage and a retirement plan which most 'pastors' have today. Again, church planters were sent out to where the word was not heard yet.
So, where are pastors who are giving 70+ hours a week in service to their church supposed to get a home, transportation, clothes, etc for their families?
It sounds like you are opposed to extravagant living by pastors and I think most of us here would be too. Having a parsonage is not having fancy living arrangements. Having a house next door or on the church grounds (as they often are) is not always a great advantage. Most churches don't give pastors a new car either. They provide enough income that the pastor can provide himself with the transportation they need. They may get some kind of travel/car allowance but I bet it doesn't cover what the pastor spends in gas and wear/tear on his vehicle visiting those in his congregation.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 9:32:34 AM
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rolling
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Go back and read my posts. I have answered that a hundred times.
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 9:47:48 AM
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zoebob
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I have. The closest you have come is that no one should be running the whole show.
In my church of about 250 we have 3 full time paid pastors who serve the church in excess of 40 hrs a week: probably closer to 70. Plus a secretary and administrative assistant who work part time for the church. In addition there is a deacon and several elders who serve several hours a week in addition to their full time paid jobs. Plus all members are expected to serve and we do as Sunday school teachers (about 15 at a time), nursery workers, janitors, snow shovelers, coffee servers, children's church teachers, etc, etc, etc. It takes several hundred hours a week of time to make everything happen that happens. Probably about 2/3 of it is done by paid to staff who dedicate their time to serving the church. Even then, if you were to take the pastors hours and divide by the amount they make it's probably less than minimum wage.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 10:40:19 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3039
Joined: 9/2/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
you cannot tell me that the 'pastor' doesn't fit these descriptions.
Absolutely absurd!
So, in other words, if you "call" yourself a pastor, you cannot accept financial support from your church...but, if you call yourself a missionary/apostle and do the work of a pastor, you can collect as much money as those in your home church or others are willing to give. How convenient for you.
You are missing your calling, rolling...you could have a great future in teaching the art of doublespeak.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 10:57:51 AM
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jerowhy
Posts: 71
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And immature Christians trying to teach the Oracles of God are even more dangerous.
Paul spoke very plainly to the idea of immature believes trying to teach;
(Heb 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
(Heb 5:13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
(Heb 5:14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
It was true then; and it is true today.
Thanks
RC
RC! In order to teach The Word of God, must not one make efforts and some blunders until one becomes sharp enough to divide rightly? So, then each of Us may help to sharpen the other persons sword as 'Iron sharpens Iron.' A baby would need certain things taken care of for them: 'You nursed me at my mothers breasts.' Until such time as they would be prepared in the growth through Faith, but God brings one to become of age. God makes it to grow, but the enemy tries to steal.
Thank you for your patience. There are many things that the Fellowship can do to build each other up in The Faith besides duelling and sparring to increase battle skills in division and handling prowess of the weapons we are given. Yet, for sure, there is that We have to prepare for battle to overcome in equipping each other for service of the Good God.
One can spar to sharpen if one keeps form and order without wounding ones neighbor. We are that we should not be attempting to hurt each other, but help each other, I hope.
And part of the Empire of the feet on the vision given to Daniel was made of iron, part of clay.
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 11:25:12 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3039
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From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
RC! In order to teach The Word of God, must not one make efforts and some blunders until one becomes sharp enough to divide rightly?
This is completely off topic, but I'd like to respond to this.
No, one should only teach the Word of God when one is equipped to do so. With vulnerable sheep in your hands, you need to know your stuff before you stand up and call yourself a teacher. One should pray long and hard about taking on this role because...
1 "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." -James 3
This is not to say that a teacher can't or won't make mistakes, they are human, but the pulpit is a place that should only be occupied by those who already know how to "rightly divide the Word of Truth."
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 2:02:29 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
. Paul would start a church, work with it to get it going then leave it. He would return later to recognize the elders that naturally surfaced.
Rolling would you please give me Scripture whre Paul ever went back and recongiaed an Elder that naturally surfaced?
Thanks
Rc
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/25/2008 2:03:16 PM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
3John reads: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
Websters New World Dictioary defines preeminence as 'to project forward, eminent ABOVE others, excelling others,prominent, surpassing others.'
You cannot tell me that the 'pastor' doesn't fit these descriptions. Is John condemning this form of hiearchy in this verse or is he sanctioning it?
My pastor does not fit this description, nor does any previous pastor I have had, nor any pastor in the group of Churches that I am acquainted with. To the absolute contrary, the pastors that I know and respect have the desire to lead, serve, teach the Word and proclaim the good news. This makes people like me respect them, learn from them, and allow myself to be persuaded and lead by them. This might give them them some sort of appearance of "preeminence" -- but they neither "loveth" it nor seek it.
John is not condemning this (or any particular form) of hierarchy, he is condemning the sin of pride and denouncing a false leader.
Please note that the other accusation against Diotrephes is that he "recieveth us not" -- meaning that he provides no hospitality to John, other apostles and/or apprentice apostles in their travels. In doing so, Diotrephes is the one refusing to provide for the basic needs of the ministers that minister in his congregation and denying their authority (as in hierarchy) over himself and the congregation of which he is a part, but desires to dominate.
So, he is clearly sanctioning some form of leaders having authority over congregations (in this case apostles are the leaders in question) and he is sanctioning that the minister-ees have a responsibility to provide for those leaders basic needs and comfort (in this case through direct hospitality).
There is definitely no condemnation here that would apply to a good and servant-hearted pastor/minister/leader/elder accepting money that is freely offered in lieu of hospitality from those they lead. (And if you think this means only sufficient money to live at a basic level, you might want to consider the luxury with which eastern peoples pamper their guests.)
However, let me state that anyone who is seeking preeminence or demanding lavish pay is clearly in the wrong. There is a difference between that and what is earned (true respect) and what is offered freely (a salary from offerings).
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That's exactly what I said in my last post, Ben!! 
