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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 11:59:12 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
rolling,
Can you answer RC Jame's question/point about Frank Viola's books? Thanks.
In post #44 he said that Viola was an Apostle not a Pastor>
Poor excuse, but that is his reasoning.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 12:02:34 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
The poor are to recieve donations. Read your bible. And the elders are to be donors as well.acts.20
If the Pastor is spending all his time in prayer, studying the Word, teaching, and counselling then would he not be poor and therefore qualify for a donation from those he is feeding?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 1:44:57 PM
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janebnelson
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you guys really should read Reimagining Church and Pagan Christianity before making such broad assumptions. Viola and Barna answer the question about the difference between receiving a clergy salary and being an author whether christian or not that receives royalties for a product like a book. In one of the interviews, neither barna nor viola live off of their royalties. you can go here to see their answers to that question and others. http://www.ptmin.org/answers.htm WHat I'm impressed with is that Viola (not sure about G. Barna) doesn't charge an honorarium when he speaks and he doesn't take a salary for speaking or ministry. I'd encourage you to read Pagan Christianity and Reimagining church to see exactly what they are arguing and what they aren't arguing. I thought both books were very eye opening and liberating.
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 1:49:07 PM
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1love1God1way
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Of course they are going to make a distinction between being that in clergy and being an author.
They are the ones making the money, afterall.
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 1:50:31 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: janebnelson
you guys really should read Reimagining Church and Pagan Christianity before making such broad assumptions.
Thanks, but since you're new to the thread, that suggestion was already made and rejected, Mrs. Rolling janebnelson.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 1:50:51 PM
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rolling
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Now some of you are judging me when you don't have a clue. That's an easy out when the kitchen heats up. At least you're not reaching for some wood and a box of matches just yet. 
.
Now what was the question about Viola's books?
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 1:59:14 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6364
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Judging? Your teachings and claims? Yes, testing all things in light of Scripture.
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 2:14:13 PM
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rolling
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Earthless, i have been judged in my personal life, not for what I have stated. Sounds like the liberals bashing Hannity, Rush and O'Reily....and Palen! Know what I mean?
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 2:18:54 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Earthless, i have been judged in my personal life, not for what I have stated.
In this thread? What I have seen are fellow Christians, leaders in their congregations... testing what you have presented in light of Scripture.
Some healthy discourse and questions.
Is that what you take issue with?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Sounds like the liberals bashing Hannity, Rush and O'Reily....and Palen! Know what I mean?
Not sure, I am not a liberal. Plus the analogy does not quite fit, sorry.
RC James noted that you said Frank Viola is an "Apostle" - is that true? Because there are no individuals today whose authority or teaches are on par with Scripture. Are you confusing the rule of an overseer of local congregations with that of the biblical Office of Apostle?
There is quite a difference.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 2:29:02 PM
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Consecrated2God
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Let's get back on the topic of this thread, please. This is not about whether or not people are judging someone else. If you feel you've been personally attacked, please click on the report link and we will link to it. Discussing it disrupts the thread and takes it off topic.
Sincerely,
Lisa Luper
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Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Bonky
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 2:30:16 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: janebnelson
you can go here to see their answers to that question and others. http://www.ptmin.org/answers.htm
Actually, since that is his own personal website, I can't trust anything it says there. Please present other evidence that he does not live off his royalties for any of his books, and accepts no honorarium or love offering when he speaks.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 2:33:27 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
A quick look at 1Co.12 shows every 'body part' functioning, ministering one to another. There are about 58 'one to another' verses in the N.T. If all are ministering, then who gets the salary, that that coveted position promises?
rolling,
You've asked an important question here and made some important points throughout this thread. The separation made between those in paid positions and volunteer positions is similar to our separation of sacred and secular. I don't believe the Lord intended any such divisions. Erring is part of the human condition and thoughtful, meditative people will reflect on what we are doing and what God has to say about it.
We are ALL called to minister, using the gifts the Lord has given to us. And yes, we are to honor one another---giving more honor to the less seemly members using their gifts. That is not what we do. We instead show partiality and preference.
We had a home church for three years. We have had Bible studies in our home for eighteen years. My husband and I love Jesus and choose to share His gifts to us with others. We have never received pay. We both have post graduate degrees and my husband works in a profession that required a minimum of 70-80 hours of work each week. Yet when you have a relationship with Jesus and are in His word and His Word in you, there will be an overflow. It is not something you have to work at. It just is. And it is meant to overflow to others.
I am not saying that there should never be paid positions. For example, I believe that there are men, like RC, who are devoted to Jesus and worthy of hire. But unfortunately, in my 54 years, I have experienced too many 'shepherds' who were more concerned about their own personal wellbeing rather than that of their flock.
There are other ways of doing church. We are free in Christ and can do church as led by Him. Certainly the church is in need of another reformation.
We need to return to the Word and His word. Bless you, LL
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 11/23/2008 12:30:52 AM >
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 2:38:09 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
What Jack is forced to do is leave and start his own 'church'. Now if ALL are ministering in1Cor.12, what you are saying is that they all need to get off their duffs and go start other churches which leave nobody behind in the first. Your little dogma is unreal.
The poor are to receive donations. Read your bible. And the elders are to be donors as well.acts.20
No, according to your blog, this is what you feel you were forced to do. You angry over what you perceived as mistreatment in the church....something about certain churches/pastors not being willing to open up their pulpits to you and you feeling slighted by that, etc.,etc., etc...yawn!
Now you're all mad and in a huff and have decided to become a one-man-crusade for this singular issue. Well, thank you very much, but most of us don't need you to crusade on our behalf as we are happy with our churches the way they are (with pastors and staff who get paid for their work).
Oh, and btw, we have a Holy Spirit who is perfectly capable of leading us to the truth if there were something wrong in our churches... and, no offense, but it ain't you!!
P.S. Just wondering how you plan to support your family once you become a full-time minister who doesn't accept a pay check?? Just keep in mind, making sure your family is provided for is supposed to come before ministry.
Rolling, you seem to ignore many of the questions asked of you in this thread and that is troubling.
Would you please answer my P.S. question?
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 3:09:34 PM
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rolling
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Kat, i'm answering as fast as I can. Have you ever been out-numbered? I have for 34 years now.
Ok! Yes. I wanted to answer that before but I was hindered from doing so. I thought I had gotten the boot.
Any way. Answer. Missionaries get support. Elders are to support the poor by working jobs. Acts 20.
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 8:10:41 PM
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buckifn
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Wow...those must be some interesting books...I've never heard of the author or the books...am I missing something important here?
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 9:51:18 PM
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BenQuebec
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I'm still wondering if the Rolling believes that there should be no paid full-time ministers except apostles. That would mean, of course, that all other full-time ministers should accept no salary, and thus should not be able to pay for their own food, clothing, housing or provide for their families.
Unless, of course, all ministers who are not apostles should only minister on a part-time basis, and have full-time secular jobs on the side to finance their part-time ministry. This would mean that the only ministry that should be full-time is that of an apostle. If you're not an apostle, you can't be a full-time minister.
That is, if I understand him correctly. Hey, Rolling, would you mind clarifying your position as being the closest to one of the following statements? It would help us understand where you're coming from...
a) Only apostles should be full-time minsters, as they are the only ministers who should be paid.
b) Any ministry can be full-time, but only apostles should be paid. Other full-time ministers, including pastors, evangelists, etc., should not accept a salary.
It would also help if you could define the word salary. To me, it seems that you think donations would not be considered as salary, as it's not contractual. Would it be fair to say that to you, the word salary excludes donations from others? Would it also be fair to say that while you believe that pastors should not accept a salary, that they can accept an income based on donations from others?
I'm starting to think that you believe a pastor can be paid, as long as it's not a contractual salary. Am I right?
Thanks!
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 10:02:02 PM
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rolling
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Guilty of much I am but to be to repititious here is not a guilt I need to add to my scandalous list. Please go back and read all my posts on the matter. I, like all of you, seek to follow as close as possible the N.T. dictates for His body[church]...that's all. Surely that is not a crime in your eyes.
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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 11:48:40 AM
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klpowell
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Rolling, Here is my question... Can God be wrong?
God has called me and others into full-time ministerial services. I am leaving a well paying job that provides very well for my family to enter the ministry in which I don't expect the same sort of compensation. However, I do have a family to provide for and the duties of a full-time pastor are far beyond simply preaching the Word (though that is the most important part) they include administrative duties, visitation, and the ability to be "on-call" 24/7 for the needs of the people of you church. Again God has called me into this it is not something I choose, quite the opposite in fact. So can God be wrong when he calls people to full time service?
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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 12:14:49 PM
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rolling
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I felt called for about 27 years to go into full time service as an evangelist or pastor as we define those places today. But God kept telling me 'NO'. Iwas eager, I was excited, I was on fire, I was anointed for service....but , God had to teach me the difference between the flesh leading and the Spirit leading. I do not believe He would lead someone into something that was not scriptural or does not have the clear word of God to back it.
Are you being led out as a missionary? I see that as really the only calling that warrants support of those who send you out. The poor are to be our main focus to support. What a revival that would bring. Can you imagine??
All my other references in the word of God clearly shows a plurality of poimen/pastors/elders in the local body of which they were commanded to work jobs, Acts 20, to fulfill the command of Christ to take care of the needy and the poor.
They were to bring the folks into the fullness of the stature of Christ and then let go in the meeting to fulfill their spiritual functions in turn at every gathering according to 1Cor. 12. In other words, they looked forward to working themselves out of a job.
The power of God endorsed this N.T. pattern by His presence and anointing. The folks went out into the highways and byways and turned their little world upside down for the kingdom of Jesus Christ. The POWER of God was unleashed when they 'had the pattern right'. That's what I want to see happen. That's what you guys want to see happen. I know that.
David had a pure heart before God but yet he screwed up in the pattern or command of God when he hauled the ark. Right and pure intentions are not enough. His plan must be incorporated. I think we tend to think that His way of doing things just might not happen today as they did back then.
So we must, we think, take things into our own hands. I believe this is one of hell's best kept secrets, one of satan's diabolical lies of the ages. He jacked God's perfect plan up from the get-go. Sure God still loves us. That's a given. Sure He blesses us now and then with some goose bumps and a healing or two, but what could He do in our midst if He had total control of our meetings. We'll never know until we get our hands off the steering wheel and allow Him to demonstrate His ability and power in and through us.
Last summer I went to visit some friends. I began sharing with them how God was moving me to go to this 'pastor' that we had known for years and ask him if we could get an 'off night' and try to teach the flock about 1Cor.12 and spend some time with the folks in prayer waiting on God and see, just see if God would visit us in that N.T. pattern. While I was walking my friends through this, the holy Spirit rushed us and we, all 3 began to cry, then a song began and we praised God for several minutes in the Spirit. I went to this pastor while we wete camping out with him and laid it out what God had showed us. He said no. We we were not going to be given a chance. About 10 minutes later a wind whipped up and tore the metal canopy off his camper. Destroyed it completely. I'm not saying God was trying to reach this man, but then again, i'm not saying he wasn't. I don't think the 'church' is ready for such a transition yet, which is back to the N.T. pattern for fellowship. devon and kathy
devon and kathy
< Message edited by rolling -- 11/23/2008 12:33:34 PM >
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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 2:35:33 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Let me say this. If it is my missionary support as he vaguely implies, I would like to know who will be supplying that support? Likely the members of his "church" albeit a "home" church, and other members of the body of Christ. If this is the case, what's the difference between that and a pastor accepting support from the body of his church?
Semantics...gotta love it!
I agree Kat_D. Now my approach is a little different than most, but with the same outcome. I do not draw a salary (save for one dollar for liability insurance purposes), but I will accect personal offerings from individual attendees. I do not ask for or promote that, it just happens.
God has always met my needs (maybe not my wants, but certainly my needs).
Now I consider the way I do it to equate a salary, I had just rather do it the way I do, than to draw a salary.
Thanks
RC
edoted fpr spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/23/2008 4:59:38 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 3:04:08 PM
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sparkleingsnow
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Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
This verse has come to mind both times I have looked at this thread.
The labourer is worthy of his hire.
Yes, there is a lot we can and should do for the Lord without exspecting anything in return. And yes, we should give to the poor. But I don't see why that would stop us from having hired jobs also. Jobs that are needed to help people, but wouldn't get done if the people doing them had to go to work at another job to feed they're family. Maybe they could do a little but nothing like what they can do full time.
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Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
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RE: Salary? - 11/23/2008 5:12:19 PM
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earthless
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We're still waiting to hear his definition of "Apostle."
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