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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 1:19:26 PM
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rolling
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Where is the full time pastor in the word? Not there. There was a plurality of poimen[shepherds/elders]. In Acts20 Paul told them to work jobs so they could support the needy. They were servants not kings. This is so silly.
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 1:33:01 PM
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jerowhy
Posts: 71
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Amen. And Paul tells us that there a double accounting for those in leadership with regard to Nicolaitanism (Lording it over the flock for pomp and circumstance and money and positions in front of other people to gain honor with people instead of God) falseness. Also, they are due an allowance on the free and Good will gifting of The Body and can marry. Furthermore, when the heart is created renewed, the Leadership is an Honorable thing to be respected with much Grace for they are handling The Awesome Word of God. If one does feed only one's self there is Prophecy against them for eternal problems as Woe. Only the leadership opposed Christ the more and denied His Most Merciful HandiWorks during The Coming and refused to enter The Kingdom.
There is Apostolic Scripture regarding those who build only buildings with jewels and stubble that will fail. God Dwells among the Tabernacles (temples of the body) of the people. Inside, and Outside as The Spirit is Poured Out upon those who receive Him. To as many as received Him, to those who believed on His Name, to them He Gave The Power to become free from slavery as the Sons of the Living God. A slave has no permanent place in The Family of God for those that do The Will of God enter The Kingdom of God as new creations being conformed into the likeness of what Christ had given the Gracious downpayment deposit to produce. A reckoning is in the parable for those found that He declared could no longer be manager of the talents entrusted and they were going to be fired. So the person was earnest to make everyone elses load easier with The King and He Gave Commendation to him for they will welcome him into their eternal dwellings. The Lord adds, multiplies, and takes away as He Desires to in His Kingdom.
The true salary is In Christ Jesus, just as wordly money is nothing on His Market. So keep your worldly money and pay your taxes, or dedicate some of it to receiving these little ones hurt by the tragedy of this dark world. In this way, you are receiving and loving Christ. For theirs is The Kingdom.
One must build one's self up in the faith unto dwellings that remain in eternal places with God. To build up each Other is to love Jesus.
Jesus said: I will send them scribes and that every scribe instructed concerning The Kingdom bears much Good for The Kingdom of God.
These kingdoms on earth will fade and their glory and possessions will be added unto those who seek The Kingdom of God first in the Millennium and in Paradise. God makes leaders and the 'rich' and the 'poor', He has made His wonders known in these things; yet He Will Decide at The Judgment who has Treasures and Wealth eternal. Hope springs eternal for the persistant. One must continue in Faith to cultivate and sow in love and Godly fear the vineyard that The Lord has left for some to tend in the meantime. He was very angry (vengeful) when they kept hurting those whom He sent, for they are His People. Commands kept by Gracious Faith is truly discipleship.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Where is the full time pastor in the word? Not there. There was a plurality of poimen[shepherds/elders]. In Acts20 Paul told them to work jobs so they could support the needy. They were servants not kings. This is so silly.
< Message edited by jerowhy -- 11/21/2008 1:56:25 PM >
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 1:59:06 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Where is the full time pastor in the word? Not there. There was a plurality of poimen[shepherds/elders]. In Acts20 Paul told them to work jobs so they could support the needy. They were servants not kings. This is so silly.
What's silly is that you ignore common sense and cultural context.
My pastor works some 70 hours a week, as it is, for the church. Not exactly enough time to get another job. Why shouldn't he be paid for that?
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 2:10:56 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1086
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
...check out Frank Viola's books 'Rethinking the Wineskin,' 'Pagan Christianity', and Reimagining Church'.
Wow, so Frank Viola gives his books away, I mean if he is promoting that no leader should recieve a salary; how could he charge for writings that he claims God gave him.
Thanks
RC
Thanks for taking it to the next level, RC! Gonna take a lot of wiggling to get out of that one, but Emergents are great at that!
I didn't realize author equated to pastor....
hummm....that is a new one on me.
_____________________________
“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 3:44:03 PM
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rolling
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A pastor working 70 hours a week??? Give me book, chapter and verse. One man was never called to 'do it all'. It's a body with body parts, all functional. What's so hard to figure here? What we have morphed into is worse than a paraplegia.
The Monster!
Funny looking varment I saw today, a creature like a science fiction movie display:
no legs, no arms, no sinews, no bands; no bones, no hair, no feet and no hands;
no torso, no neck, no nose, no eyes; so what was this monster that caused me surprise?;
twas the 'church' I beheld that brought me to tears, one single mouth and a whole bunch of ears!;
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 6:12:45 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1104
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I don't think that Jesus would like you talking about His bride that way.
There's no reason that like-minded people should not choose to support a pastor's ministry by paying his living-wage.
There's also no reason why like-minded people should not form communities of unpaid inter-service. If you are adverse to paid teachers/leaders, don't pay them. Maybe eventually more people will make that choice and that model will become prevalent. That would be just fine with me.
It's also just fine with me to do Church in a way that suits the people that I do Church with. Our paid ministers do not prevent others from serving in good roles as part of the body. Our Church is not run contrary to any warnings in Scripture. Every model has its flaws, and ours has some, but I don't worry to hard about them myself.
Really, why is it necessary to attack the ideas that work for others (as long as they are in keeping with the Bible)?
Why don't you just go ahead and do things your own way (the way you think is most Biblical)?
If it's really that much better, I'm sure it will become obvious soon. As it is, the only thing that is obvious to me is that the model that is raising you up does a fairly poor job dealing with and teaching on Scripture, and that it encourages somewhat stand-off-ish character traits under pressure. I'm not inclined towards that kind of thing, myself.
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 6:16:28 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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rolling,
Can you answer RC Jame's question/point about Frank Viola's books? Thanks.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 6:49:19 PM
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BenQuebec
Posts: 1464
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Québec, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
A pastor working 70 hours a week??? Give me book, chapter and verse.
Good point. While we're there, can anyone give me book, chapter and verse that allows a Christian website? They met in homes, not online!
On a serious note, Paul mentioned that he became all things to all people. To the Jews, he conducted himself like a Jew. That being said, our culture works in such a way that when you work, you get a salary. This is true whether you're a painter, a plumber, an architect, a policeman, or a pastor.
In QC, a full-time minister is a full-time worker, and is required to pay income taxes like everyone else. As such, he must get a paycheck from an organization (church or otherwise), or declare his donations as revenue (in other words, "salary") and pay his income taxes at the end of the year.
That being said, are you against the existence of full-time ministers, period? Or just paid ministers?
< Message edited by BenQuebec -- 11/21/2008 7:03:31 PM >
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 7:14:41 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
A pastor working 70 hours a week??? Give me book, chapter and verse. One man was never called to 'do it all'. It's a body with body parts, all functional. What's so hard to figure here? What we have morphed into is worse than a paraplegia.
Well here's your sign; Book, chapter, and verse.
(Php 2:30) Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.
As for me if I ever had a week under 84 hours, I would consider that week a vacation.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 7:40:58 PM
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BenQuebec
Posts: 1464
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Québec, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Where is the full time pastor in the word? Not there... They were servants not kings. This is so silly.
Receiving a salary does not make one a king. Servants receive a salary, by the way. It's only slaves who don't, and slavery is illegal in Canada and in the US.
quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
I didn't realize author equated to pastor....
hummm....that is a new one on me.
Not necessarily. However, in this context, they're both full-time ministers.
Again, this begs the question: should be no full-time ministers, period? Or just no paid ministers?
Edited to add: Please note that my wife and I are volunteer music directors at our church. We love doing this, and do it freely as unto the Lord. However, our pastoral staff receives a salary, and they earn every penny, IMO. I'm also on the deacon board, who has approved their salary increases for the last few years.
< Message edited by BenQuebec -- 11/21/2008 7:49:48 PM >
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 7:51:23 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
A pastor working 70 hours a week??? Give me book, chapter and verse. One man was never called to 'do it all'. It's a body with body parts, all functional. What's so hard to figure here? What we have morphed into is worse than a paraplegia.
Matthew 9:37
Then He said to His disciples, " The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
I'm sorry. Do you think that there is not enough work out there to keep a minister busy?
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 8:43:50 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1882
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When you talk about salary you almost have to talk about greed at the same time...because most salaries today are based on greed not need. How is it one family can survive well on a salary of $50, 000 and yet another family demands a salary of $100,000 plus? Is it greed or need?
A true Shepherd will not give demands based on greed. God will ALWAYS have someone and/or some way to meet the need of His leader's.. The emphasis being on 'HIS" there are many wolves in sheep's clothing who worship the $$$$$ and NOT THE GOD.
Before you criticize a true SHEPHERD how about walking a week in his shoes?
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RE: Salary? - 11/21/2008 9:05:43 PM
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BenQuebec
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
When you talk about salary you almost have to talk about greed at the same time...because most salaries today are based on greed not need.
I disagree. A salary is simply what permits one to buy food and shelter, and provide for a family, which is expensive in today's western culture.
Some go into excess, but that is more related to excessive comsumption and poor spending habits. Having a salary is not greed.
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 3:54:42 AM
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dwain
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Is this a fancy war call for biblically literate laypeople to disband the local church, or anger at pastors because some lay people feel they could do a better job than those ordained?
Scripturally, a pastor has to answer to God first, not man.
And, if a man of God is confident in God, he won't mind being frank about his needs, and his desires, not just for himself and His family, but for the growth of the church as a whole.
Check this out-
If all the members on church rolls throughout the US of A gave at least 10 % of net OR gross income, and it was directed to world hunger, there would be NO hunger in the world as we know it. Then the ones who distribute the food could tell the hungry ones, it was the love of God in Christ Jesus that provided.
< Message edited by dwain -- 11/22/2008 5:30:16 AM >
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 8:05:21 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1882
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quote:
Having a salary is not greed.
I did not say it was. I said if discussing a salary then we need to discuss greed because most salaries are based on greed not need.
There is a huge difference in those two statements.
For instance, our gov. defines the national poverty level at 20 some thousand dollars (24 I think) for a family of four to survive...so how can we expect a family of four to survive on that amt. and then say another family of four needs 100,000 plus to survive....
Of course a man has to have a salary to provide for his family I would never dispute that. The question becomes how much to cover need and how much is to cover greed imo.
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 8:56:31 AM
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rolling
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Any form we are using that is contrary to what the word has set in order is then out of order and in need of replacing. Christ does concur. Paul had to straighten out the first ekklesia time and time again for error. God told him to. God told us to when ever error took a foot hold.
Let's go with your reasoning here. God saves Jack. He starts going to 'church'. The pastor is 20. He plans on pastoring until he is 80. That's 60 years. Jack must wait and clean toilets for 60 years before he can have a chance to teach or exort or prophesy to the folks in the Spirit.
But one problem. There are 5 others guys ahead of him waiting for that same 'position'. So Jacks chances of ever excercizing his gifts and functions in the meeting are fried from the git -go.
Oh there is an occasional sunday nighter when he gets his chance, but that is like allowing a mountain climber to climb a mountain every 10 years...not good!
But ah-ha!! Not so in 1Cor.12 according to God's better plan for our meetings. All are humble servants cleaning toilets and utilizing their spiritual functions...everytime they gather under one roof.
Why is this next to impossible for you to see? It's the clear word. Bible that is. Yet you refuse to see it. So God is cheated out of operating through all His children, and all the children are cheated out of that close walk and experience with Christ. The number one purpose of the gathering was so the folks could 'edify one another'. Not to just sit and say amen week after week to the same movie star spouting from the pulpit...pulpit? where did that come from? Hint. The greek expositors and orators. Not from the first ekklesia.
All I am saying is try the N.T. pattern for about a month. Wait upon the Lord as a group. Actually this probably won't work without some sound teaching on the subject to shake loose all the traditions of men. But it would be worth a shot. Then after some clear understanding and some diligent prayer, if it does not result in revival, a visitation, then you win. God did throw out the first plan and has established religious services as we have today. devon and kathy
oh!! RC, you missed some of my comments. Paul was not a pastor as we define a pastor today. He was an apostle. Our closest to that is a missionary who has a right to financial support.
< Message edited by rolling -- 11/22/2008 9:07:54 AM >
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 9:25:55 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
Let's go with your reasoning here. God saves Jack. He starts going to 'church'. The pastor is 20. He plans on pastoring until he is 80. That's 60 years. Jack must wait and clean toilets for 60 years before he can have a chance to teach or exort or prophesy to the folks in the Spirit.
The world is a really big place with billions of folks that need to be taught in the Spirit. If Jack is so stupid to sit on his duff for 60 years and not teach after God has called him to teach; Jack probably does not have the brains nor the fortitude to do it anyway.
quote:
oh!! RC, you missed some of my comments. Paul was not a pastor as we define a pastor today. He was an apostle. Our closest to that is a missionary who has a right to financial support.
So in your litttle dogma; Apostle get salaries, but Pastor/Teachers do not.
Scripture says;
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
And I just do not find a notation that says Apostles get a salary and a 401K, but the others do not.
Would you think it unScriptural for a Pastor to recieve financial gifts from the individuals in the congregation?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 10:13:13 AM
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rolling
Posts: 159
Joined: 11/14/2008
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What Jack is forced to do is leave and start his own 'church'. Now if ALL are ministering in1Cor.12, what you are saying is that they all need to get off their duffs and go start other churches which leave nobody behind in the first. Your little dogma is unreal.
The poor are to recieve donations. Read your bible. And the elders are to be donors as well.acts.20
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 11:04:09 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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rolling,
Can you please answer RC James's question regarding Frank Viola's books.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 11:32:44 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3039
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
What Jack is forced to do is leave and start his own 'church'. Now if ALL are ministering in1Cor.12, what you are saying is that they all need to get off their duffs and go start other churches which leave nobody behind in the first. Your little dogma is unreal.
The poor are to receive donations. Read your bible. And the elders are to be donors as well.acts.20
No, according to your blog, this is what you feel you were forced to do. You got angry over what you perceived as mistreatment in the church....something about certain churches/pastors not being willing to open up their pulpits to you and you feeling slighted by that, etc.,etc., etc...yawn!
Now you're all mad and in a huff and have decided to become a one-man-crusade for this singular issue. Well, thank you very much, but most of us don't need you to crusade on our behalf as we are happy with our churches the way they are (with pastors and staff who get paid for their work).
Oh, and btw, we have a Holy Spirit who is perfectly capable of leading us to the truth if there were something wrong in our churches... and, no offense, but it ain't you!!
P.S. Just wondering how you plan to support your family once you become a full-time minister who doesn't accept a pay check?? Just keep in mind, making sure your family is provided for is supposed to come before ministry.
Edited because I had one too many "mad and in a huff's" in that post. 
< Message edited by Kat_D -- 11/22/2008 2:41:26 PM >
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 11:54:19 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
What Jack is forced to do is leave and start his own 'church'. Now if ALL are ministering in1Cor.12, what you are saying is that they all need to get off their duffs and go start other churches which leave nobody behind in the first.
So just let the World go to hell because Jack wants to teach in one particular place. If the Apostles had did that there would only be a small gathering in the Upper Room, and not the world full of Christians that we know today.
I have never met a person who had solid doctrine and wanted to teach that could not find a place to teach.
You must have been hanging around some really strange places.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Salary? - 11/22/2008 11:57:01 AM
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jerowhy
Posts: 71
Joined: 10/14/2008
Status: offline
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I heard somewhere that it is written: Many parts, One body, One God.
Also, sheep run away from anyone who is not The Master. They only listen to The Shepherd for they belong to Him Only. Anyone sent comes in The Name and they can be given The Voice of one calling to make paths straight in preparation for God and The Messiah's return in The Millennium.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
A pastor working 70 hours a week??? Give me book, chapter and verse. One man was never called to 'do it all'. It's a body with body parts, all functional. What's so hard to figure here? What we have morphed into is worse than a paraplegia.
The Monster!
Funny looking varment I saw today, a creature like a science fiction movie display:
no legs, no arms, no sinews, no bands; no bones, no hair, no feet and no hands;
no torso, no neck, no nose, no eyes; so what was this monster that caused me surprise?;
twas the 'church' I beheld that brought me to tears, one single mouth and a whole bunch of ears!;
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All 4 of our pastors have second jobs also, and take very good care of the flock God has entrusted to them. Amazing...those men have a heart for God, for sure.