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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 12:01:47 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1425
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
RC, when you ask "How long" it's a difficult thing. I don't think we need an answer in weeks, but we do need to think through and discern in a given situation, whit the Spirit at work. There are the hard unrepentant, and there are the, ones that don't feel like changing, and the ones that know they should but are reluctant, and the ones that don't really know they should.
My question would be:
Who is standing at the door.....acting as the "bouncer" of the church, and checking to see who can come in...who can't....and, is keeping track of who's been "naughty" and who's "been nice"?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 2:26:04 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
My question would be:
Who is standing at the door.....acting as the "bouncer" of the church, and checking to see who can come in...who can't....and, is keeping track of who's been "naughty" and who's "been nice"?
In our Church as the Pastor I am the bouncer; everyone is welcome the first time they come to visit.
If there is open sin in their lives after they have been there once or a few times; I talk to them and if they will not repent; they are ask not to come back until they do repent.
Now just so you know that we are an equal opportunity Church; regular attendees and member that fall into sin are afforded the same option; repent or leave.
If I recognize a person that comes is an someone the sexual offenders list, I ask a member to watch over them for the first service; then I visit with them and make a decision if they are welcome or if the safety of our children is more important.
Kernsfamily, I know from your post that your Church is large and what we do may be difficult for your Church to do. kBbut to turn a bunch of unrepentant weirdos loose on a loving, caring congregation and the childrenb, just does not seem to be the thing a Shephard would do whith his flock.
Which may be the reason I do not necessarily think that bigger is better.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 3:36:33 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1425
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
Which may be the reason I do not necessarily think that bigger is better.
so, then...at what point would you start turning people away from your congregation....because, after the church grows, you can't keep up with the personal lives of each and every member of the congregation (including visitors)?
If I were to just show up one day and sit down in your church, because I happened to be in town on business.....would I get interrogated? Fingerprinted? Be made to fill out a criminal background form?
while my church is quite large, and all are "welcome"....NO ONE gets into the children's area without security tags.....NO ONE gets into any sort of "leadership" role without being a member of the church "in good standing"....all one can really do is attend church, with 5,000 or so other people in that particular service (no private areas...and no where to "hide")....
so, while we do have a large church....those "unvetted" visitors and congregants can't get "in" to really do anything. (though, we did have a "wolf" in sheeps clothing, having to do with a minister a few months back.....though, that can happen anywhere....as some people are VERY VERY good at hiding their sins and evil deeds)
and, if any "issues" arise (such as an unauthorized parent attempting to pick up their child, or other "crime"), we have a complete security staff...and, a small army of off duty policemen make their presence known (and, perhaps THEY are on the lookout for particular people who they do not want to be there....)
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 3:39:54 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8878
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
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When a church starts getting large enough that you can't keep up with everyone maybe then it's time to start a daughter church in another part of town so you are more accessible to another area and more people.
My church has about 250 people. It's enough that we know who the regulars are and don't let people in the nursery or to pick up kids that we don't know. OTOH, we feel free to let our kids wander around the building and not feel we need to have an "eye" on them at all times. BTW, we are getting ready to start our second daughter church in about 6 years.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 3:49:33 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1425
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
When a church starts getting large enough that you can't keep up with everyone maybe then it's time to start a daughter church in another part of town so you are more accessible to another area and more people.
and, if the area is already saturated with other churches?
Sure, there's a "daughter" church, but what if everyone insists on joining and coming to the "original" location? You can't force anyone to go to one of your "other" churches. People and pastors and ministers are all different.
Though, we DID start a "daughter" church about 2 years ago...at a location about 15 miles north of our present location (of course, much to the dismay of the congregations that were already in that area)
1,000 people showed up on the very first Sunday. More and more have been coming ever since.
make it more accessible to MORE people? well over a half-million people live within a 15-20 minute drive of our church. And, how many churches exist in that same area? Hundreds.
Perhaps it's just the difference between rural and urban congregations.....and there IS a big difference, in this respect.
Whatever did Dr. W.A. Criswell, legendary pastor of First Baptist Dallas, ever do with regards to this? In the 1950s and 1960s there were well over 20,000 there.
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 12/1/2008 3:56:04 PM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 4:03:50 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
so, then...at what point would you start turning people away from your congregation....because, after the church grows, you can't keep up with the personal lives of each and every member of the congregation (including visitors)?
When the congregation gets towards the number that I as Pastor do not know everyoone's names, jobs, problems, gifts, phone numbers, talents, etc. Then I start looking for someone who is being raised up to start anohter work and be able to take care of the flock. The maximun number I personally feel comfortable with is around 200 total attendees.
quote:
If I were to just show up one day and sit down in your church, because I happened to be in town on business.....would I get interrogated? Fingerprinted? Be made to fill out a criminal background form?
You would be welcomed
If after visiting with you, and I visit with all visitors, if they are considering coming to the Church; I do run through background check on them.
quote:
while my church is quite large, and all are "welcome"....NO ONE gets into the children's area without security tags.....NO ONE gets into any sort of "leadership" role without being a member of the church "in good standing"....all one can really do is attend church, with 5,000 or so other people in that particular service (no private areas...and no where to "hide")....
Well that is nice that you only offer pedophiles a place to scope out potential vicims.
quote:
so, while we do have a large church....those "unvetted" visitors and congregants can't get "in" to really do anything. (though, we did have a "wolf" in sheeps clothing, having to do with a minister a few months back.....though, that can happen anywhere....as some people are VERY VERY good at hiding their sins and evil deeds)
I truly hope that is the case; a large Church in OKC had a man rape an early teen during the service last mont in a cloak room just off the foyer of the Church.
quote:
and, if any "issues" arise (such as an unauthorized parent attempting to pick up their child, or other "crime"), we have a complete security staff...and, a small army of off duty policemen make their presence known (and, perhaps THEY are on the lookout for particular people who they do not want to be there....)
I do pray that army of security folks do thier job.
Of coure it would be much simpler if your Church was split into Churches of a couple of a hunderd each; and the Church as a whole could accomplish much greater ministry.
But that is just me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 4:29:05 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1425
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
Well that is nice that you only offer pedophiles a place to scope out potential vicims.
quote:
I truly hope that is the case; a large Church in OKC had a man rape an early teen during the service last mont in a cloak room just off the foyer of the Church.
so, it's totally impossible for anything like that to happen at your church? a "pedophile"-free church is what you essentially "guarantee"??? not all "pedophiles" are on the "sex offenders" rolls, as most are never apprehended. If you think you're "untouchable" and "it doesn't happen here"...one day, you'll be in for a rude awakening....
quote:
Of course it would be much simpler if your Church was split into Churches of a couple of a hunderd each; and the Church as a whole could accomplish much greater ministry.
that would be well over 100 separate churches. 100 separate pastors and 100 staffs to run each church. (as I stated earlier, we did start a new church 15 miles away....and well over 1,000 came the first sunday!)...
That, assuming, that everyone will not "congregate" to any ONE particular church....do you TELL people to go to church #57 instead of #4? how would that work?
it's very easy to say "break up" into 100 different churches.......much more difficult to actually do it. People are going to go to church where they want to go.
Then, again...it is very simple. Of all the people who do get "assigned" to church #83....simply "ignore" and treat as "intruders" anyone who doesn't belong there, and simply IGNORE them.... That's the way many very small churches around here treat their visitors! maybe they are on to something!
Accomplish much greater ministry? I really doubt that. We have a community, national and world-wide reach that not many churches have....to be "divided" would be to "dilute" our effectiveness....
it's NOT as if there aren't any other churches in our immediate area....there are HUNDREDS already......where would all these ADDITIONAL churches go??? land is expensive in the city!
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 6:58:38 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
so, it's totally impossible for anything like that to happen at your church? a "pedophile"-free church is what you essentially "guarantee"??? not all "pedophiles" are on the "sex offenders" rolls, as most are never apprehended. If you think you're "untouchable" and "it doesn't happen here"...one day, you'll be in for a rude awakening....
I did not say that (it seems you want to be argumentative, but I will pass), but a Chruch of 100 to 200 where everyone knows everyone else vs. a mass of 26,000 folks where no one knows anyone.
quote:
that would be well over 100 separate churches. 100 separate pastors and 100 staffs to run each church. (as I stated earlier, we did start a new church 15 miles away....and well over 1,000 came the first sunday!)...
Wow, over 100 local neighborhood Chruches tending to the needs of the Brethern, what a wonderful concept. A staff for a neighborhood Church wjill run about 3 folks and very easily done. I just fully believe that 100 Churches that can be more or less individualized ministry tothe needs of the folks. Some ot the Churches we have "Mothered" have different music styles, different outreach visions; some foriegn missions, som help ministeries, and a couple are not even the same demonimation.
quote:
That, assuming, that everyone will not "congregate" to any ONE particular church....do you TELL people to go to church #57 instead of #4? how would that work?
Well actually that is the Holy Spirits job to direct His folks, not the leadership of the Church.
quote:
it's very easy to say "break up" into 100 different churches.......much more difficult to actually do it. People are going to go to church where they want to go.
It has been my experience over the years that when the leadership stops trying to be the biggest and stops trying to squash folks in the congregation from wanting to minister to keep control; it just all flows kind of naturally.
quote:
Accomplish much greater ministry? I really doubt that. We have a community, national and world-wide reach that not many churches have....to be "divided" would be to "dilute" our effectiveness....it's NOT as if there aren't any other churches in our immediate area....there are HUNDREDS already......where would all these ADDITIONAL churches go??? land is expensive in the city!
Its simply a matter of reaching the folks of the community; different styles of preaching, music, outreach, children's ministry, etc. A mega Church is limited by how much they can meet the needs of folks. They try by having dozens of "Associate Pastors" "Associate counselers", etc. but in reality it is just so one person can claim conteol of it all.
Release the folks, release those called to be Pastors, Elders, etc. and let the Holy Spirit work through them. Spreading the Gospel and growing the Saints is not rocket science; and it sure ain't a status symbol or a kingdom as some wish it were.
Kernsfamily, when is the last time your Pastor preached on folks in the congregation being like Timothy and Titus, or when has he told the folks if you want to do your own Church talk to us and we will finance the building, take up an offering for you, pray for you and set you free.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 8:14:02 PM
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becomingworthy
Posts: 15
Joined: 8/13/2006
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I am amazed and saddened everytime this subject comes up. Jesus did not steer clear of those who didn't repent at His command. The church (at least ours) is for people to come to realize they are not alone, that there is hope, that there is a better way than what they are doing now. Whether it take a day or a year for them to be able to give up control to God, it shouldn't matter. I am just amazed and saddened.
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 8:55:03 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4761
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: becomingworthy
I am amazed and saddened everytime this subject comes up. Jesus did not steer clear of those who didn't repent at His command. The church (at least ours) is for people to come to realize they are not alone, that there is hope, that there is a better way than what they are doing now. Whether it take a day or a year for them to be able to give up control to God, it shouldn't matter. I am just amazed and saddened.
Well, said, i.e. the sinners bless you!
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 2:23:33 AM
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Casper22
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruthie
The very idea that unbelievers aren't welcome in church is abhorrent, loathsome and disgusting. 
If a person comes looking for truth, woe to those that dare stand between that person and God.
Please note however, that I am equally disgusted by watered down doctrine. Proper teaching on sin sorts out those who are looking for God and those that are looking for a social club.
I couldn't agree more. Church is and should be about the Salvation of the lost not about the comfort zone of the Christian.. Jesus didn't go after the saved he went after the lost even having dinner with them to preach his word. It would be a grave travesty to turn anyone away from there Church who didn't fit in there sanctimonious mode and who was seeking to know the truth of Gods word. What if one of those unsaved died that day that was turned away from Church what possible excuse would those who were responsible what excuse would they give to the Lord when they stand before and he asks for a reason for that action. Im sure someone saying well Lord our Church rules dont allow those kinds of people in. Im sure thats going to go over well with the Lord.
Excuse my ignorance here but what is a seeker Church. Is that a Church that goes after those who aren't saved? If so why is that so wrong when Salvation for the lost is what Churches like that are seeking. Do these kind of Churches compromise the Word or something im not sure of the term seeker Church.
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 3:27:15 AM
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Casper22
Posts: 89
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
My question would be:
Who is standing at the door.....acting as the "bouncer" of the church, and checking to see who can come in...who can't....and, is keeping track of who's been "naughty" and who's "been nice"?
In our Church as the Pastor I am the bouncer; everyone is welcome the first time they come to visit.
If there is open sin in their lives after they have been there once or a few times; I talk to them and if they will not repent; they are ask not to come back until they do repent.
Now just so you know that we are an equal opportunity Church; regular attendees and member that fall into sin are afforded the same option; repent or leave.
If I recognize a person that comes is an someone the sexual offenders list, I ask a member to watch over them for the first service; then I visit with them and make a decision if they are welcome or if the safety of our children is more important.
Kernsfamily, I know from your post that your Church is large and what we do may be difficult for your Church to do. kBbut to turn a bunch of unrepentant weirdos loose on a loving, caring congregation and the childrenb, just does not seem to be the thing a Shephard would do whith his flock.
Which may be the reason I do not necessarily think that bigger is better.
Thsnks
RC
Could I ask you a question without you taking it the wrong way? I am genuinely curious how Pastors come to these kinds of conclusions. When you were saying that when new folks come to your Church and you were talking about open sin in there lives and if they haven't repented yet after a few services you will ask them to leave and not return until they have repented. Ok my question is this how do you determine as a Pastor that these people have open sin in there lives do you just flat out ask them or do you just assume or is it something that the Holy Spirit gives you or do you go by what you've heard? See what confuses me about all of this is I always thought and was taught our first priorities as Christians was to witness and spread Gods word to the lost that the lost is who we are supposed to preach too that the Christian is already saved. See if I had seen you do that to an unsaved person I would ask you with respect what if today was his or hers day of Salvation and now all they have is bitterness toward Church because they feel judged and put out and now wont give God or Church a second thought? I was always taught that Church is Gods house it is not ours we are just renters and the doors are open to anyone. Ive seen drunks come in off the street and get saved and never drink again as well as prostitutes and sometimes it does take awhile for them to hear the word of God preached but isnt the end results worth it. Even though its something you dont necessarily want to see around you every Sunday but isnt that what being a Child of God meens to give shelter to the weary and to love the lost and preach the word to them? And im not talking about those who are being disruptive someone had mentioned a Wiccan disrupting her bible study or some sort but even still what if the seed was being planted in that Wiccan even though she was being argumentative usually when someone is being argumentative isnt it sometimes a sign of guilt and there trying to rationalise there sin? Isnt that when we are supposed to hold fast to the truth and preach the word fervently. See I dont know. I understand there has to be boundaries I know we have to be zealous as well but when is it not enough and when is it too much. How do we know we went to far with someone and judged them unfairly but on the same foot how do we figure out enough is enough ive done all I can for you. Is there ever a good enough reason to tell someone to leave your not responding to the calling and im not talking about those who are just there to disrupt I just want an understanding on this position and im asking you out true respect and reverence as a Man of God so please dont take me as someone questioning your authority as a Pastor. I hope my questions and inquiries made sence and if my 1st post seemed abrasive im very sorry about I tend to speak my mind before I think it out
take care Casper
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 8:25:16 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2236
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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I don't think many are getting rc's point at all. Part of witnessing is confronting sin, especially if they are attending church and you are the pastor. Pastors are held more accountable than non pastors. They have a bigger burden to carry than the rest of us. Too many pastors today are too worried about offending someone's feelings so they don't ever discuss sin with anyone and look at the church today. Jesus never ignored sin, he confronted it and told people to go and sin no more. Repentance is not being preached from the pulpit today because the milktoast church doesn't want to offend people. Hello the true gospel is offensive. There is more to church than getting saved. The church is for discipling believers and for the last 20+ years that has fallen by the wayside in order to become seeker friendly. Instead of building up the body of believers so that they can take the Gospel to the world we have brought the world to the church. Guess what, it's not working. The biggest advocate of the seeker friendly movement, Bill Hybels figured that one out.
How will people know they are in sin if nobody ever tells them? How will people have victory over sin if their sins are tolerated because people are too afraid of hurting feelings? Today's church got caught up in meeting felt needs and it has had a disastrous effect on the church today.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 9:29:56 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1425
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
It has been my experience over the years that when the leadership stops trying to be the biggest and stops trying to squash folks in the congregation from wanting to minister to keep control; it just all flows kind of naturally.
that right there is the biggest "misconception" of all. NO ONE is trying to be "the biggest" (at least we aren't)....People make a choice, out of the hundreds of local congregations, and it just so happens that X-Amount of people have chosen our church. Because the holy spirit has guided them there....and it "just flows kind of naturally".......
I see your point about having other congregations for people with other and "specialized" needs....and there are MANY MANY churches serving many different needs ALREADY......If needs weren't being "met", then our church wouldn't have the number of people that it does.
quote:
Kernsfamily, when is the last time your Pastor preached on folks in the congregation being like Timothy and Titus, or when has he told the folks if you want to do your own Church talk to us and we will finance the building, take up an offering for you, pray for you and set you free.
Our Pastor "preaches" from Timothy often. WIth regards to do "their own church", I would ask, "WHY"? Ever think that if people WANTED a smaller congregation, they could simply CHOOSE to attend one of the hundreds of smaller churches in our immediate area? I can walk out the door of our church and SEE 3 other churches!
When someone within our church accepts Christ, and is baptized, many times we HELP THEM find another congregation that best suits their "needs", if they come to the conclusion that perhaps our church just "isn't for them"......does that sound like we're "trying to be the biggest church"???
4-5 years ago, a group of people DID go to the pastor and say, we've got big number of people who are coming 15+ miles away from this area. Perhaps we should build a church there. So, they did. As I have mentioned before, over 1,000 came that very first Sunday (well above your "criteria" for a "good number" for a church)....and, the church is growing and growing. And, the church was criticized for establishing a church there, as there were already many churches there....and we were pushing our way into "their territory"....
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/101308dnmetprestonwoodbaptist.3815264.html
Set you free? No one wants to be "set free", as we are ALREADY "free"....we have a dynamic, spirit-filled and biblically-solid church.....there's NO REASON to leave.
Due to moving and such, this is the 5th church I have been a member of....the ministering of our needs that my family and I have blessed to receive is FAR and AWAY greater than any other church we've ever been in....
It's just going to have to be one of those "agree to disagree" things....as there is obviously a BIG difference between rural and urban congregations.....until you see the church for yourself, and see how well it serves the church body, the community and beyond, you just can't understand that it actually works VERY VERY well (alot better than many of the much smaller churches we've been to!)....if it didn't, our family, and many others wouldn't be there!
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 11:20:35 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4406
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
I don't think many are getting rc's point at all. Part of witnessing is confronting sin, especially if they are attending church and you are the pastor. Pastors are held more accountable than non pastors. They have a bigger burden to carry than the rest of us. Too many pastors today are too worried about offending someone's feelings so they don't ever discuss sin with anyone and look at the church today. Jesus never ignored sin, he confronted it and told people to go and sin no more. Repentance is not being preached from the pulpit today because the milktoast church doesn't want to offend people. Hello the true gospel is offensive. There is more to church than getting saved. The church is for discipling believers and for the last 20+ years that has fallen by the wayside in order to become seeker friendly. Instead of building up the body of believers so that they can take the Gospel to the world we have brought the world to the church. Guess what, it's not working. The biggest advocate of the seeker friendly movement, Bill Hybels figured that one out.
How will people know they are in sin if nobody ever tells them? How will people have victory over sin if their sins are tolerated because people are too afraid of hurting feelings? Today's church got caught up in meeting felt needs and it has had a disastrous effect on the church today.
This is a really good post and I hope people will read it closely.
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 1:03:36 PM
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TheTartanTammy
Posts: 33
Joined: 12/2/2008
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Coming into this one a little late and from a Scottish perspective. I have been a Christian 11 years and a pastor 18 months. For me the central message of the Gospels and Jesus in particular is 'come' not get out!
Surly we make a major error when we exclude people who are in need of God's Grace, unless their being included is extremely detremental to the local church?
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 1:33:59 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7430
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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Hi Peter and welcome to the boards!
_____________________________
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 2:12:16 PM
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becomingworthy
Posts: 15
Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline
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I guess my thinking is that the pastor (my DH in this case) preaches the gospel, preaches about sin and repentance and holiness, so the people hear it. But never would he/we/anyone in our church boot someone because they refuse to repent upon command. Repentance comes from the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is not an ultimatum given to pastors to pass along to their church. Where is the grace? I don't think that by having people in the church that are dealing with issues means that the gospel is not being preached. Our church is large, not everybody knows everybody. That is where the beauty of small groups and accountability partners come into play. Equipping the members to minister. I still can't imagine telling someone "This is sin, repent or get out."
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 2:15:07 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8878
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
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Becoming:
What would you do if you confronted someone in open sin and said "this is a sin issue in your life. Please repent and please don't flaunt your sin in church" If they continued to flaunt their sin and try to say it wasn't sin and that they could behave like that if they wanted and called themselves Christians what would you do? For example, a homosexual couple. I think it is one thing if they would say "You are right we need to end this, but we are struggling" vs "We think it's OK and don't care what you say and will be open about it in church"
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 3:24:47 PM
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TheTartanTammy
Posts: 33
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
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I guess the question facing us all is, WWJD? Churches, as well as individual Christians, are Grace communities, therefore God's Grace to us should be God's Grace thru us - same goes for His love.
I am a sinner, yes saved by Grace, but a sinner none the less. Doesn't Jesus say that we are not to judge? So, if I am a sinner what right have I to judge, isn't that God's place?
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/2/2008 5:10:44 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Casper22
Could I ask you a question without you taking it the wrong way? I am genuinely curious how Pastors come to these kinds of conclusions. When you were saying that when new folks come to your Church and you were talking about open sin in there lives and if they haven't repented yet after a few services you will ask them to leave and not return until they have repented. Ok my question is this how do you determine as a Pastor that these people have open sin in there lives do you just flat out ask them or do you just assume or is it something that the Holy Spirit gives you or do you go by what you've heard?
First, a lot of questions run together, please help this old man out by using paragraphs. Please.
It is not a matter of askikng someone if they are openly sinning, that question would be, "Are there any areas in your life that you would not want Jesus to see today?"
It is not rocket science to see when folks are living an unGodly life and being hypocritical about that life by coming to Church to help concealy it. It shown thourgh in one visit. Of course, discernment does not hurt either. I offer to teach, guide, counsel, etc. with the folks and explain that sin just will not be allowed in the Church.
I simply tell them that are not welcome back to the Church; until their sin issuea are fixed (salvation and repentance).
quote:
See what confuses me about all of this is I always thought and was taught our first priorities as Christians was to witness and spread Gods word to the lost that the lost is who we are supposed to preach too that the Christian is already saved.
Absollutely spot on, we as individual Christians are to spread the Gospel, show folks how to become Christians; THEN bring them into the body of Christ.
Scripture says;
(Act 2:41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
and
(Act 2:47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
PLease notice those that were added to the Church recieved the Wrod, were saved and baptized.
They were not unrepentant, unsaved goose-neckers tryihng to see if they like the "Service" or not.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/4/2008 12:46:03 AM
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Casper22
Posts: 89
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline
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Im sorry about how my questions running together I use a Web TV type PC called a PS3 and no matter what I do it brings it all together. That will be remedied this week when I get a real computer. It agravates me too
Thanks for answering my questions it really helped I apreciate it
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