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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/18/2008 4:33:53 PM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
How long would someone be allowed to disrupt things before they were asked to leave?
what I mean by "disrupting"....any loud talking....standing up and "questioning the pastor" during the sermon (hasn't happened in my church, but, I have seen it happen in others)....
Really? Weird.
What about someone who is more...stealthy. What about someone causing strife through gossip, for example?
at my church, there are enough people who would be "adverse" to a person like that...it wouldn't take long for someone like that to feel "unwelcome", or at least to get the idea that "causing strife" will not be tolerated nor welcomed.
so, in other words, many of those "other issues", quickly take care of themselves....
I am VERY involved with many aspects of our church...and, in my 5+ years of going there, there really has never really been "strife" of any kind. Sure, a situation might "pop up" briefly...but, on those rare occasions, those are resolved quickly and discreetly....
I am not aware of anyone being "refused entrance" into church due to ANYTHING.....(though, on some sundays, I certainly wouldn't mind having the "fashion police" manning the entrances!)
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/18/2008 4:36:04 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1425
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
How long would someone be allowed to disrupt things before they were asked to leave?
what I mean by "disrupting"....any loud talking....standing up and "questioning the pastor" during the sermon (hasn't happened in my church, but, I have seen it happen in others)....
Really? Weird.
Oh, yeah...my wife has this "uncle"...he would stand up DURING THE SERMON and challenge the pastor's use of scripture and all sorts of things....
i believe that they eventually were asked to find another church home.
But, that is an extreme example.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/19/2008 4:45:22 PM
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hjemerson
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Wow this is intresting to think on Yes We as beliver are the church and we do us a building to meet in, As in the reg service we welcome all and our paetor preached a salvation type sermon mostly on the morning as the other service sunday night and wed we are only menber if e have visiter doing these time they are welcome and we minstey to them ,
But i want to address the Youth Pastor Retreat . That was a very close to home for me in the past we as a leader/ parent asked our youth pastor to do somthing as this, As for most of the youth that wanted to have this type of all day retreat Bible study they knew who would want to come and would be open to more in depth study, It could have been restarted if you wanted to have a study day and digg in the Words come, but be open to all. Then he could have had other adults in is service or small group ready for break out session if some that were not rady for the indepth subject to lead a small group of them in a area of decestion they were ready to be in, Just think what could have happen in some of the Youths life if this had been done! Thur Pray the Lord would have lead the one that need to heard and lrean to the retreat<
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/20/2008 1:17:38 PM
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KyivJoy
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At one church we attended the Christmas service would often have people staggering out of the pub opposite and into the church. A couple of men would stand at the back of the church and guide them into a side room where they could listen, but not be heard if they started causing problems.
In England we ran a children's disco once a month and as you say, it was often used as a baby sitting service. One night a child fell and cracked her ankle, we couldn't get hold of the parents as they had gone to the pub while they didn't have the kids with them.
Why do we use a church building? In Act is says that they met daily for prayer. In those days Christianity was new so there weren't that many people so they had the room in each others homes. Could you imagine trying to get all the believers into someones home now. Also it doesn't have to be a building. During the days of the plague in England a pastor realised that it was something to do with people being in close proximity to each other and started having his church meetings in a valley, with himself in the vale and the congregation arranged in family groups around about. God's natural church building.
One last point. Here in Kyiv we are an English speaking church we few stable members. People attend who are over on business or on holiday. We don't question them before they come in to see if they regularly attend church when at home or if they are Christians in the first place.
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/21/2008 9:03:08 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
How long would someone be allowed to disrupt things before they were asked to leave?
quote:
What about someone who is more...stealthy. What about someone causing strife through gossip, for example?
(Tit 3:10) Warn troublemakers once or twice. Then don't have anything else to do with them.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/29/2008 1:47:27 PM
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rapturetruth
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I agree and feel that we are the church [as believers] and should even fellowship any place convenient outside the church building and because that building is just the 4 physical walls, is all and is not heaven itself ..
I saw in my town persons in a church make that place look like its the only place believers can be allowed to be to be blessed and forget too we can worship God outside that church as well and one thing i saw also is christians think as if they cannot hang out with believers in the public or other places people go ,except i am not necessarily talking about a bar either ..I would like to see them more often be in fastfood places and it does not matter if they eat burgers or not because they could only drink something [i don't see it in my area only once in awhile] ..You can have true fellowship in a barn in a field if as it is coupled with lots of prayer and focus on that Love in God there as a great thing to have..Churches do not have to cost a million dollars to exist likely though there is needs for things sometimes..Outside my church i desire strongly to just pray because something does not seem right spiritually so..
Some groups will not mention any scriptures outside the church location and i thought that was cool to discuss it anytime to edify eachother and so it is like a taboo to mention the bible in public which is crazy thing i think..If people see us enjoying the bible in public it becomes attractive and witnesses to the truth--
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/29/2008 4:54:47 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rapturetruth
..You can have true fellowship in a barn in a field if as it is coupled with lots of prayer and focus on that Love in God there as a great thing to have..Churches do not have to cost a million dollars to exist likely though there is needs for things sometimes..Outside my church i desire strongly to just pray because something does not seem right spiritually so..
I agree, and they can also worship God and have true fellowship in a building with a cross on it, and a demoninational name on the sign out front.
I also agree that individuals are to "Do the ministry" after they have grown to the point where they can; please note that exact command here;
(Eph 4:11) And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
(Eph 4:12) for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
(Eph 4:13) And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
But that certainly does not mean that everyone has the same call on thier lives and we are all to be clones of each other; one person will have a burden for one thing, another person a burden for another.
If you are so into meeting at "Fast food" places, maybe, just maybe, God is calling you to do so; but please do not expect everyone to feel the same as you do about it.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/29/2008 5:01:08 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/29/2008 5:14:22 PM
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DrIjames
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In my 30 years of ministry i learned that there are in the churches, Lambs, goats and wolves. the lambs are the believers and this includes those that are new born Christians. New born Christians are Like new born children. They need to be cared for in every way. I had a minister contact me from poplar bluff and he said Brother, why is it that we get people saved in church and then we never see them again.?" I asked him, "who do you have doing the follow up,?" he said, I don't know what you mean. I told him that if your wife gave birth, would you leave that baby on its own, he said"well, no". I said well you can not leave new born Christians on their own. I am sure that you have great people in your church that would love to be involved and these people should follow-up on the new Christians. They should call them every week and ask if they need anything or if there is something that they need prayer for, so on and so on.( he has started this" ministry" in his church and have seen a great response and the church has grown with new members. Now when a christian reaches the "toddler stag" they are ready for more freedom but all you parents out there know that they have to be watched. A toddler is going to explore, they are going to learn to walk and they will fall, we do not kick our toddlers when they fall and we should not kick a spiritual toddler neither. then there are the pre-teen stages and the teen stages. Now, there are the goats, and in my experience I have learned that the goats are more stubborn and some times they need a kick in the back side to get them through the gate, then there are the wolves. It does not matter if it is a church with 5 members or five thousand, there are always wolves and these blend in with the rest of the congregation. they travel around the outskirts of the flock, never really getting involved but always ready to attack. they look for any weakness there may be in a young believer and even the seasoned believers and when they smell blood they attack. I will stop here. I know you get the point. as far as some one disrupting the service. That is something that needs corrected. I believe that this should be done in private with the one or ones that are disrupting the service. If this does not work than it is time to ask them to leave. But always remember that prayer can change the circumstances
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/29/2008 10:33:00 PM
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Cloak
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A church is a house of God that should be open to ALL and everybody of all races, social classes and all religions and to both believers and non-believers.
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 8:35:30 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
A church is a house of God that should be open to ALL and everybody of all races, social classes and all religions and to both believers and non-believers.
Even to people who are having sex with their step-mother?
And what about folks causing strife and ttrouble or disruption?
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 9:36:32 AM
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Cloak
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
A church is a house of God that should be open to ALL and everybody of all races, social classes and all religions and to both believers and non-believers.
Even to people who are having sex with their step-mother?
And what about folks causing strife and ttrouble or disruption?
Thsnks
RC
We should give all people the benefit of the doubt and see how and what they behave with their sinful lifestyle. I believe this is how Jesus approaches sinful people. The only folks He distanced Himself from are those who refused to change!
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 9:41:07 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
We should give all people the benefit of the doubt and see how and what they behave with their sinful lifestyle. I believe this is how Jesus approaches sinful people. The only folks He distanced Himself from are those who refused to change!
OK, and what do you think is an appropriate time frame to allow for that change, before they the unrepnetant sinners are not welcome?
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/30/2008 10:28:33 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 10:26:27 AM
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Cloak
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
We should give all people the benefit of the doubt and see how and what they behave with their sinful lifestyle. I believe this is how Jesus approaches sinful people. The only folks He distanced Himself from are those who refused to change!
OK, and what do you think is an appropriate time frame to allow for that change, before they the unrepnetant simmers are not welcome?
Thanks
RC
Change does not happen overnite. You should keep them in your prayers and trust God to take care of them. Time will tell.
We should not change people. It is the God's job not ours.
The only folks I would Not associate with are those who claim to be Christians and don't act like it: sinful lifestyle Or Hypocrites. Both of which Jesus Condemned in the Bible.
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 10:33:45 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
Change does not happen overnite. You should keep them in your prayers and trust God to take care of them. Time will tell.
We should not change people. It is the God's job not ours.
The only folks I would Not associate with are those who claim to be Christians and don't act like it: sinful lifestyle Or Hypocrites. Both of which Jesus Condemned in the Bible.
That is kind of a dodge os a specific question.
How long should an open sinner be allowed to be part of the congregation?
Say for example; how long should an adulterous husband be allowed to bring his girlfriend to Church before being confronted?
How long should a homosexual couple be allowed to sit in Church and hold hand before their sin is confronted?
How long should a person who is involved in gossip, backbiting, and other disruptive activities before they are ask to repent or leave?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 1:17:44 PM
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DrIjames
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Amen, I had an experience when I was in this small town ministering. I would drive through at night and there was a certain bar that was on main street and I would see these young teens standing out side the bar, and some coming out of it and you could see that they were under the influence. The next day a asked a certain Pastor of a church about it, I said "we should get some believers down there and witness to them and get them into church", His exact words were, "Brother, we do not want them kind in our chuch". when he said this I felt such a pain in my Spirit. My spirit was so grieved. I have noticed some of the members and to be sure they never look happy? It is the parable of the ten virgins that come to mind.
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 1:29:21 PM
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Cloak
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
Change does not happen overnite. You should keep them in your prayers and trust God to take care of them. Time will tell.
We should not change people. It is the God's job not ours.
The only folks I would Not associate with are those who claim to be Christians and don't act like it: sinful lifestyle Or Hypocrites. Both of which Jesus Condemned in the Bible.
That is kind of a dodge os a specific question.
How long should an open sinner be allowed to be part of the congregation?
Say for example; how long should an adulterous husband be allowed to bring his girlfriend to Church before being confronted?
How long should a homosexual couple be allowed to sit in Church and hold hand before their sin is confronted?
How long should a person who is involved in gossip, backbiting, and other disruptive activities before they are ask to repent or leave?
Thanks
RC
Accepting sinners does Not mean condoning their sinful lifestyle by any means.
Mind you as a church we should welcome every body, but we should confront Sin in them in a loving way that would lead them to repent.
Although I did not mention this literally in my previous post, I was hoping that it would be understood within the context!
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 4:01:19 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
Accepting sinners does Not mean condoning their sinful lifestyle by any means.
Mind you as a church we should welcome every body, but we should confront Sin in them in a loving way that would lead them to repent.
Although I did not mention this literally in my previous post, I was hoping that it would be understood within the context!
A really valid passag that refer to the "Church", is;
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Saints are the olnes to be perfected in a Church (Which is by difinition a gathering of the Saints); not much room there for seeker friendly groups or sinners.
Also;
(Act 2:41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Act 2:42) And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
I just do not see a group of sinners sitting around and calling themselves Christians or seekers.
Church is for Chrijstians; period.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 4:23:13 PM
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Cloak
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From: Canada
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quote:
I just do not see a group of sinners sitting around and calling themselves Christians or seekers.
Church is for Chrijstians; period.
Thanks
RC
As believing Christians...we are ALL Sinners, but we are redeemed sinners. So before you talk about church not being a place for sinners, just think about our background. Furthermore, one of the things Jesus loved and mixed with is Sinners even tho He condemned sin.
All those apostles, evangelists, teachers and pastors you speak of were ex-sinners; hence we have no right to say sinners have no place in the church.
As Christians we should follow His suit.
If churches were really just for Christians Period as you stated above - there would be no need for Christ to come here on earth and die on the Cross for....SINNERS and that includes you and me and all those who are Seeking Him Sincerely!
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 4:42:26 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
As believing Christians...we are ALL Sinners, but we are redeemed sinners. So before you talk about church not being a place for sinners, just think about our background. Furthermore, one of the things Jesus loved and mixed with is Sinners even tho He condemned sin.
All those apostles, evangelists, teachers and pastors you speak of were ex-sinners; hence we have no right to say sinners have no place in the church.
As Christians we should follow His suit.
If churches were really just for Christians Period as you stated above - there would be no need for Christ to come here on earth and die on the Cross for....SINNERS and that includes you and me and all those who are Seeking Him Sincerely!
As you so eloquently put it; Church is for ex sinners (EX sinners) folks who are saved, not folks who are not saved and are still under the slavery of sin.
You make a strawman agrument about no need for Christ; If a person is not a Christian (believes in Chrixt, repented, cleansed, sanctified) then they have no business in Church.
If you think otherwise than please furnish Scriptuire to that effect.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 6:03:42 PM
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gcsmithjr
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It seems pretty clear from 1 Cor 14 that Paul not only expected there to be unbelievers in church, but part of his exhortation to the Corinthians regarding order in worship (and the need for tongues to be interpreted) was the presence of the unbelievers:
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
Paul doesn't exhort the believers to remove or exclude unbelievers from the church, he actually sees the possibility that unbelievers will be convinced by the worship service that "God is really among you".
< Message edited by gcsmithjr -- 11/30/2008 8:16:22 PM >
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 11/30/2008 7:18:33 PM
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rapturetruth
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james i mean you do not see christians in public but rarely and its true they have that option too of course ,but you do not see them to call upon them almost never--
They only show themselves Sundays is about it and they can stay home too, but i wonder why some believers do not care to hang out with fellow believers -- But if this the way small towns are to be and i hope it can be different and it will not change as it never does so one lives with this ..and is why i need to pray a lot too--[if you want to reply to this id want you to pm me next time] This is how my area operates ,but im glad its not my fault..I assume God blesses people with much things to own and do so they just stay in one place enjoing those things.
I try to accept it and it is not easy feeling alone and i tried all answers thus far so i can only pray is all.
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 9:22:05 AM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
]if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
And if the unbelievers does not lay his his heart bare and become converted when he comes?
The question I am asking is how long does the Chruch allow openly unrepentant, unsaved folks to be a part of the Church?
From the passage in Corinthians it would seem that ther get very little time to hang around before becomming converted.
According to the Paul;
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Church is for the perfecting of the Saints.
It is my contention that the reason most Saints do not get perfected is because the common modern Church service is more an evangelistic service and not geared towards growing the Believer.
By difinition Church is a gathering of Believers, and if a non believer comes in they should become bellievers or else come back when they do.
The individual Believers should be taking the gospel to the world on a daily (hourly) basis, and then bring those who believed into the Church just as it says in the Book of Acts.
(Act 2:47) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 9:36:33 AM
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kernsfamily
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rapturetruth
james i mean you do not see christians in public but rarely and its true they have that option too of course ,but you do not see them to call upon them almost never--
They only show themselves Sundays is about it and they can stay home too, but i wonder why some believers do not care to hang out with fellow believers -- But if this the way small towns are to be and i hope it can be different and it will not change as it never does so one lives with this ..and is why i need to pray a lot too--[if you want to reply to this id want you to pm me next time] This is how my area operates ,but im glad its not my fault..I assume God blesses people with much things to own and do so they just stay in one place enjoing those things.
I try to accept it and it is not easy feeling alone and i tried all answers thus far so i can only pray is all.
you don't see Christians out in public? Where we live in the "small city" of Dallas/Fort Worth (population of about 6.5 million of our closest friends), more often than not we run into SOMEONE that we know from church.....we stop and say hi...if we're both waiting in line for a table at a restaurant, more than likely, we'll get one big table, and sit together........if we are out and about shopping/eating out all day on a saturday, it is strange if we DO NOT run into someone from church.
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Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 11:53:02 AM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/29/2005
Status: offline
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RC, when you ask "How long" it's a difficult thing. I don't think we need an answer in weeks, but we do need to think through and discern in a given situation, whit the Spirit at work. There are the hard unrepentant, and there are the, ones that don't feel like changing, and the ones that know they should but are reluctant, and the ones that don't really know they should.
Those who prove un-shepherd-able can't be allowed to spread their impurity amongst believers who have gathered for a purpose... but those who seem to be struggling their way toward faith, or deeper into submission/righteous living... that struggle needs to be supported. (And the best support is to be in relationship with true Christians and to see what fulfills their lives... which means a weekly worship service might not be for them, but it is of benefit to them.) To tell who's who and who's somewhere else, we need to know the actual person in question. And the Person who knows them best happens to live in my heart, so I don't expect that it will be too difficult.
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RE: Who should be allowed to attend church? - 12/1/2008 11:58:39 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5159
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
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I would think the motive for their participating in the services would help determine how long to let them remain. If the motive was to cause trouble, they shouldn't be allowed to stay for any amount of time. If their motive was because they want their children to be raised in church, I think I'd let them stay indefinitely for the sake of the kids.
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Bonky
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