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Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/16/2008 4:56:09 PM
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truthrevealed
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This "philosophy" has come up in many threads. I've seen it mentioned in conversations ranging from welfare recipients to poor children and school funding, to reparations(?) for slavery, personal charitable giving etc. etc.
Is this a philosophy that you live by? Knowing how difficult it is in these times to make ends meet, are you strict about who or what cause you give to? How does one define who's "deserving" of help? Should the person who defines be the one giving from their pocket? If a christian, should it be God? Is giving to those who "deserve" it a christian principle?
And if you do feel this way, does it apply only to money or must one be "deserving" of your affections and forgiveness as well?
I do believe it is a moral and ethical call....which is why I hope it's appropriate to discuss in this folder.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/16/2008 5:09:43 PM
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rcjames
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Well Scripture says;
(Mat 25:34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(Mat 25:35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
(Mat 25:36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
(Mat 25:37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
(Mat 25:38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
(Mat 25:39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
(Mat 25:40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
(Mat 25:41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(Mat 25:42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(Mat 25:43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(Mat 25:44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(Mat 25:45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(Mat 25:46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
it is very plain that there were needs to be met.
Also throw in this verse;
(2Th 3:10) For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
And we see a disqualifier for those who refuse to work.
So just give to anyone who says they have a need; I do not think so.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/16/2008 5:31:44 PM
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hnt
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For myself - there are causes I give to that I'm familiar with.
Most of the time I tend to give to someone I know is in need, and their circumstances. They generally don't know the 'giving' part is coming from me. I don't think that is important.
For example, there was a family in need regarding school clothes for their boys. I delivered a huge box of clothes - which were hand me downs, but they were in good shape to help them out. I didn't have the money to buy new ones. Another family had only a cell phone (cheaper than land line), and because of circumstances were having a really hard time making the payments. I went to the company that their service was with, and paid some of the bill down. All I had to have was the phone number - which I had. I got a receipt, and mailed it to them.
I do think God wishes us to do these things, and I was drawn to do them I believe by God! 
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/16/2008 5:32:44 PM
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kd4hvz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
So just give to anyone who says they have a need; I do not think so.
This is where I have seen a lot of rub. People think that if they can't pay for food or shelter that they are in need. And while that may be true, what I have often found is that people can't afford basic needs because they spent all their money on new flat screen TVs, cell phones, brand new car, and they eat out 7 days a week, etc... So the issue is often not that people are in need of help "financially", but rather people need help in learning how to manage money and establish what is important in life. I have been approached countless time by those who waste their money, and will not help. I have, however, help those who truly don't have the money to live reasonably.
So, when someone comes to me asking for help, I first establish if they are using what they have wisely. If they are not then I leave them to their ways. If they are in genuine need then I will help when I can. It is less of the idea of "deserving" and more centered on "is the need genuine"?
I've never considered it from an affection stand point, and don't see a parallel with forgiveness but would be interested to see one.
_____________________________
-Michael in beautiful Bedford, VA
[http://www.kd4hvz.com/]
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/16/2008 5:40:20 PM
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hnt
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hmmmmm.
I remember my mother speaking to me about my grandfather. He would talk about how the homeless, drunks what have you would approach him for money. They told him so they could eat.
He wouldn't give the money, but would take them out to a meal with him. He would be sharing the Gospel as they ate.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/16/2008 5:44:21 PM
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truthrevealed
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kd, interesting perspective. Can you determine, based solely upon looking, whether there is a genuine need or do you probe? Also, if someone has been foolish in their money management do you consider offering wise counsel(if they're open of course)to be an extension of giving?
What I mentioned in the OP was whether such philosophy is restricted to the area of giving money or does it extend to other areas such as forgiveness/affection, must there be a genuine need here as well? Open to whomever wishes to address...
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/16/2008 5:55:34 PM
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LCannon
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Jesus, in John 8 I believe, warned, 'Judge not lest I (probably speaking of his deity but we surety can apply it to ourselves)be judged' but in the same breath, almost, we're not to 'cast our care/concern to be trampled in the mud.' Sometimes discerning the difference is a line fine, sometimes it's not.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 11/16/2008 11:59:04 PM >
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/16/2008 7:40:03 PM
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kd4hvz
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
kd, interesting perspective. Can you determine, based solely upon looking, whether there is a genuine need or do you probe? Also, if someone has been foolish in their money management do you consider offering wise counsel(if they're open of course)to be an extension of giving?
Sometimes it is obvious. Sometimes it is not so obvious. I have learned from past experience that most of the time someone had a "need" it was a need caused by poor money management and not a lack on money. That said, it does not preclude me (personally) from helping someone if I know that they are making good decisions currently and the problems are from past decisions, or from helping if I know that they are getting help in learning to manage their money better. I offer to go over their finances with them if thy want help, just like I would go over a portfolio before investing. I want to know if I am throwing my money away or truly helping them. Many times people have more than enough to live comfortably, but think they need far more than they have so that spend well beyond their income and create their own problems by not managing money well, or because they have to little of an income. It is, in my humble opinion, part of being a wise steward of what God has made me responsible for.
quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
What I mentioned in the OP was whether such philosophy is restricted to the area of giving money or does it extend to other areas such as forgiveness/affection, must there be a genuine need here as well? Open to whomever wishes to address...
When it comes to forgiveness, I believe that those who repent should be forgiven. (Luke 17)
As far as affection I am more apt to associate that with the general idea of love and offer it freely and unlimited.
That's me. 
_____________________________
-Michael in beautiful Bedford, VA
[http://www.kd4hvz.com/]
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/16/2008 8:22:12 PM
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zamdad
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In the area I live in, I know the "needy" rather well. After seven years of working as a probation officer in the area, I got to know my clients and their associates rather well. One of the things I see most of the "needy" lacking is life skills. The needs are different. Many have chemical addictions, but not all. Some have mental health issues. Some have mental health and chemical dependency issues combined.
Our church is located in a very rural area nestled between several small communities. The largest city is approximately 30,000 people and is 30 miles away. Our church sometimes gets targeted by the professional cons after they have used and abused the churches in the neighboring towns. We have offered assistance to a few of these folks. We have put together a team of people to work with and disciple a person expressing a desire to change. UNfortunately, the success rate is not high. Too often the recipients find the "service" too intrusive. They want the material help, they don't want someone in their life pointing out the sin and having an expectation that the sin cease. They like government style assistance in which they get something without anyone intruding on their personal space and having expectations.
The other factor in this is that too many in the church don't want to get involved. They say they want to see people come to Christ and change, but they do not want to have to be the instrument God chooses to use.
It seems to me that this is a problem we are never going to solve. Whenever we, the church, see the need, we create a program to addres it and get a few volunteers to make the program work. Relationships are not built because we're too busy minding the program. It seems that the bottom line of the matter is that we all long to be in relationship. Because relationship is where we build life skills.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/17/2008 9:04:32 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5800
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kd4hvz
This is where I have seen a lot of rub. People think that if they can't pay for food or shelter that they are in need. And while that may be true, what I have often found is that people can't afford basic needs because they spent all their money on new flat screen TVs, cell phones, brand new car, and they eat out 7 days a week, etc... So the issue is often not that people are in need of help "financially", but rather people need help in learning how to manage money and establish what is important in life. I have been approached countless time by those who waste their money, and will not help. I have, however, help those who truly don't have the money to live reasonably.
So, when someone comes to me asking for help, I first establish if they are using what they have wisely. If they are not then I leave them to their ways. If they are in genuine need then I will help when I can. It is less of the idea of "deserving" and more centered on "is the need genuine"?
I've never considered it from an affection stand point, and don't see a parallel with forgiveness but would be interested to see one.
If someone from the area comes to the Church and says they need help, I always help them the first time. Nol cash, but will pay utilities, give a voucher for groceries, etc.
If they come back the second time then I usually help, but they must bring in all the bills, income records, etc. and start financial counselling.
Now as to the traveling panhandlers (and we get a lot of them in rural areas) that come and hit every Church in town with a sad story and then move on to the next town we have set up a system. Each Church in the area takes a month and they are the only Church that month that will help these folks (if that Church decides to do so). The other CHurches refer the person to the Church that is helping transients that month.
Since we started this the nubmer of transient panhandlers has dropped to nearly zero; I guess they have spread the word to go somewhere else.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/17/2008 5:45:00 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
This "philosophy" has come up in many threads. I've seen it mentioned in conversations ranging from welfare recipients to poor children and school funding, to reparations(?) for slavery, personal charitable giving etc. etc.
Is this a philosophy that you live by? Knowing how difficult it is in these times to make ends meet, are you strict about who or what cause you give to? How does one define who's "deserving" of help? Should the person who defines be the one giving from their pocket? If a christian, should it be God? Is giving to those who "deserve" it a christian principle?
And if you do feel this way, does it apply only to money or must one be "deserving" of your affections and forgiveness as well?
I do believe it is a moral and ethical call....which is why I hope it's appropriate to discuss in this folder.
Jesus was a NEED meeter. So if there is a NEED, we are to meet it as we are able.
Our society has created an entitlement mentality that perpetuates GREED. This is a very different thing and I do not see or hear Jesus being a GREED meeter.
In fact the Apostle Paul taught something different altogether. He says "for you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we might not be a burden to any of you; not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, that you might follow our example." IIThess 3:7-9
Do we hear what Paul is saying here?
We are to act in a disciplined way.
We are to pay for our bread---not expecting others to provide for us.
We are to work hard (even night & day) to support ourselves, pay our own way.
We are NOT to be a burden to others.
We may have a right to receive from others but we are to say NO.
We are to model right behavior for the benefit of others.
This is how believers are to live.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/17/2008 9:57:15 PM
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SonInMe1
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It helps to know the person you are being charitable with.
How much responsibility, biblically does the church have to those outside of the church? Not individuals, but the church as a whole?
Do we "buy" people's salvation by offering them charity? How genuine would that salvation be?
Is charity what people need? What are the reasons why they found themselves in a charitable situation?
To me, a stranger coming to a church and looking for a handout is automatically a suspect.
If you know an unsaved person who is in need, either meet that need or go to the church to see if they can help. Knowing people is a great way to develop charitable situations.
If you know a saved person going to your church who has an unmet need...gee...go to a different church. How can we help the unsaved if we cannot...or will not...help ourselves?
I think...when charity is limited its at its best function. Unlimited non-associated charity promotes irresponsibility and seperates us from the sowing and reaping principles. Getting to know people, saved and not, will help knowing when to be charitable. Listening to people. Offering them the help they need.....offering the help they need...is key. If you know them, then you will know how to help them.
Just giving out charity is irresonsible. Our food pantry gives to people but if they make a habit of it, they will be talked to. Its for the emergency situation, not a life suppliment.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/17/2008 10:25:50 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
truthrevealed
How do you discern who has a genuine NEED and who is being GREEDY?
Jesus had the gift of divine insight. For us, it takes effort. Get to know the person on the other end.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/17/2008 10:35:58 PM
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truthrevealed
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Soninme, I think you presented a fairly balanced argument. I agree that's it's better to teach a person to fish........you know, that whole thing!
It's the attitude of the heart that God's concerned with. Instead of "limiting" our charity to allow a person to learn to provide for themselves for instance, many times our pride will cause us to turn away someone who God wants us to help, (or better, wants THEM TO HELP US) because they've made unwise decisions in the past, or have found themselves in a situation that WE believe they should not be in. Well, if God's help came only when we deserved it......  , or only when we've not made foolish decisions OVER AND OVER AGAIN, or only when we're trying really, really hard to get ourselves out of our own messess......
There's balance
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/17/2008 10:45:33 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
Soninme, I think you presented a fairly balanced argument. I agree that's it's better to teach a person to fish........you know, that whole thing!
It's the attitude of the heart that God's concerned with. Instead of "limiting" our charity to allow a person to learn to provide for themselves for instance, many times our pride will cause us to turn away someone who God wants us to help, (or better, wants THEM TO HELP US) because they've made unwise decisions in the past, or have found themselves in a situation that WE believe they should not be in. Well, if God's help came only when we deserved it...... , or only when we've not made foolish decisions OVER AND OVER AGAIN, or only when we're trying really, really hard to get ourselves out of our own messess......
There's balance
I think if the believing church would model what the Apostle Paul prescribed, perhaps others would look up and listen.
IOW, I'm making the question about US and how we live, judging ourselves, rather than judging others.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/18/2008 12:34:28 AM
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upNORTder
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The good Samaritan didn't ask questions. He just helped a fellow human who needed help. I say help first and let God sort it out later.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/18/2008 6:35:43 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
The good Samaritan didn't ask questions. He just helped a fellow human who needed help. I say help first and let God sort it out later.
I really do not think there was any question about whether the guy lying on the ground with the crud beat out of him really needed help or not.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/18/2008 8:28:18 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Is giving to those who "deserve" it a christian principle?
Yes
Prov 3:27
Do not withhold good from those who deserve it, when it is in your power to act.
1 Timothy 5
9 No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, 10 and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds
1Co 3:8
The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
Ga 6:6
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
1Ti 5:4
But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.
1 Corinthians 9:3-14
3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living? 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8 Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
quote:
Is this a philosophy that you live by?
The above is not a philosophy it's God's instructions. And yes I live by them.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/18/2008 8:46:45 AM >
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/18/2008 8:40:25 PM
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SonInMe1
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My idea on limiting charity was in comparison to the unlimited charity our government provides which in many cases makes the problem worse by creating dependancies.
A more limited charity would force people to be more discerning on the gift.
Lets also recognise that charity os not for the recieving but for the giver, spiritually. Spiritually its almost a selfish act since charity is in obediance to God and we will recieve His blessings for doing so. The giver is much more blessed than the reciever. The reciever gets his fleshly needs met. The giver has his spiritual needs met.
There is no comparison. Now, if you can give in the name of Christ and show without a doubt your chairity comes from God and that leads someone to Him...praise God and both are blessed spiritually and THAT...is the goal. Not meeting someone's flesh needs, but meeting their spiritual needs through loving them to Christ enough to sacrifice to give the gift of salvation through your own works. ( Not to say we save anyone but I hope what I want to say is there somewhere...lol )
That is why government charity cannot ultimately work. God is not represented and the souce of all good things is not present. We might feed more and help more people when we let the government take over charity, but we sure seperated more people from the true souce of all good things, God.
That...is not a good thing.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 9:15:48 AM
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P31W
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quote:
truthrevealed
How do you discern who has a genuine NEED and who is being GREEDY?
In my area we know the regulars who stand at the intersection or in front of the stores with the "will work for food" signs. Most business owners here know they do "not" want to work because they have offered them jobs. We also know them because when they are really hungry they come into our store(s) and ask if they can work to earn some money.
When it comes to those who are "passing by" town God if faithful and is very able to let us know when to help and when not to help and even "how" to help them.
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 9:19:55 AM
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truthrevealed
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p31, God bless your giving !
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 9:24:23 AM
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truthrevealed
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quote:
That is why government charity cannot ultimately work. God is not represented and the souce of all good things is not present. We might feed more and help more people when we let the government take over charity, but we sure seperated more people from the true souce of all good things, God.
Soninme, interesting point and seriously one that I never thought of. Charitable giving(i.e taking care of the poor)was to be the responsibility of God's people anyway, correct?
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 9:59:36 AM
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P31W
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We were never commanded to care for all poor people. We are given a priority list so to speak in scripture. We are also given some specific people we are not to help.
The early chruch was such a closed community that the persecution they endured was often because of their "anti social" behavior. They were trying to meet one another needs and the needs of their family (lost or saved) and the needs of those whose lives were dedicated to spreading the gospel message.
Even Pauls' collection was for the "saints" and not the lost world.
I am not saying that as individuals God does not call on us from time to time to meet the needs of a lost person/family. He does. But there is not command for the chruch to somehow try to meet the needs of the entire poor lost world.
Notice Acts 2 as well. They were busy about meeting "one anothers needs" within the fellowship and God added to their numbers.
Did one of the things that attracted people to the Chruch to fact that no one in their midst had a need? Could be. Because the gov. works to meet people's needs that element of attractiveness/distinction is lost for the chruch.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/19/2008 10:06:04 AM >
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RE: Giving to people who......DESERVE it?!??! - 11/19/2008 12:17:34 PM
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cinderella092003
Posts: 127
Joined: 6/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
How do you discern who has a genuine NEED and who is being GREEDY?
I live in a decently large city. I didn't understand that magnitude of the people that will stop and ask for money until we lived here about 6 months.
I just decided in my heart, that I wouldn't give money, unless I felt led by the Holy Spirit, but I would try and meet their need if possible.
A lot of times, people say that they ran out of gas and they need a couple of dollars for it. I ask them if they have a gas can, and they almost always say yes, and I tell them that I will fill up their gas can if they come to the gas station just across the street.
Even this past week, two people stopped us and we were in the same parking lot as a gas station, and they said they would go get their gas can. We told them we would wait 10 minutes and both times they never showed up.
I guess what I have learned with the people that I have helped and offered help to is that if I offer to meet the need and not give them cash to meet the need, and they refuse what they were asking for in the first place, then they didn't really need what they said they needed.
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to get money for alcohol etc.(by the way I've seen some with signs that say, "will work for beer"-- I actually appreciate the honesty. 
) to give in situations where to them it may be illogical to do so, just to break that stinkin' pride. I'm inclined to believe that He's just as concerned about our sometimes FUNKY attitudes(as His children)as He is in putting in honest work to assure that we eat!
