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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/20/2008 11:14:06 AM
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buckifn
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as for the clothing itself "provocative" is a label one gives based on personal perception...what is "provocative" to one certainly may not be to another...and if I am not mistaken we are all free to wear whatever style of clothing we want..if we judge people based on the clothes they wear are we projecting Christ any better than they are?
Didn't Christ look past the outward appearance?
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/20/2008 11:46:21 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
Didn't Christ look past the outward appearance?
Yes!
Didn't Paul also address the issue of woman dressing immodestly several times? YES
This is the same kind of argument that caused Martin Luther to reject the book of James, and he was wrong on this matter. The reality is that while Christ always looks to the heart, our heart condition should be reflected in our outward actions. In this case the outward actions would be reflected in obedience to honor God's call to modesty given in the bible.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/20/2008 3:38:08 PM
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buckifn
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modesty, like, provocative, are both terms open to wide interpretration. Culture has a great more influence on acceptable dress codes in some areas more than others...so I don't think how one dresses is going to be seen the same in all social religious settings.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/20/2008 4:13:16 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
modesty, like, provocative, are both terms open to wide interpretration. Culture has a great more influence on acceptable dress codes in some areas more than others...so I don't think how one dresses is going to be seen the same in all social religious settings.
First, No one said that every social religious setting would be in agreement.
Second, that doesn't diminish the fact that the bible does call us to have standards and the fact that establishing those standards and knowing where to draw the lines is very difficult is not a reason to simply abandon standards all together. Clearly Paul encouraged Timothy to deal with immodesty in his church in Ephesus, and by his encouragement we can assume that he believed it was possible for Timothy to be able to define standards for the women in his church.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/20/2008 9:01:04 PM
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buckifn
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whose standards are you going to promote tho? What was acceptable in society during Pauls ministry would be laughable in many areas today.
I didn't see where anyone suggested abandoning standards all together...wouldn't that be impossible? Unless one is a nudist there has to be some standard....
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/20/2008 10:23:22 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
Are you going to be willing to get on a witness stand during a trial and testify to the judge and jury "my daughter" deserved to be raped because her top was too revealing??? Unless I am misreading that is what some people are suggesting here....
My daughter would not be wearing provocative clothing as long as she's living in my home. And hopefully I will have trained her up well enough so that she will not wear it ever.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/20/2008 11:02:09 PM
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makarizo
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i think one gets what one is looking for.
I don't know what is in all of your hearts, but it all sounds pretty evil.
like that verse:
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains
JOhnO, do you want your daughter to dress appropriatly so that guys won't gawk at her, or because it is honorable? or is it because you are concerned about what others will think?........ more fathers should take your attitude!!
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/21/2008 1:45:58 PM
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terryjohn
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If you knowingly and willingly swim in a shark tank, can you blame the sharks for eating you? Can we blame sharks for being themselves? The one thing that confounds me is that some continually say men should be other than who they say he is. Smart people do not do stupid things.
Should a drunk man not be able to cross the freeway with out being hit? Maybe the drivers should be on the look out for him but he doesn't make it easy for himself.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/21/2008 2:16:13 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: terryjohn
If you knowingly and willingly swim in a shark tank, can you blame the sharks for eating you? Can we blame sharks for being themselves? The one thing that confounds me is that some continually say men should be other than who they say he is. Smart people do not do stupid things.
Should a drunk man not be able to cross the freeway with out being hit? Maybe the drivers should be on the look out for him but he doesn't make it easy for himself.
I can't blame the shark, but I can blame the man and the drunk. God created man (and woman) uniquely different; he created us in his image. Because of that I can choose not to fall into temptation even when the temptation is the result of another's sin.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/21/2008 5:01:20 PM
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John_O
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: terryjohn
If you knowingly and willingly swim in a shark tank, can you blame the sharks for eating you? Can we blame sharks for being themselves? The one thing that confounds me is that some continually say men should be other than who they say he is. Smart people do not do stupid things.
Should a drunk man not be able to cross the freeway with out being hit? Maybe the drivers should be on the look out for him but he doesn't make it easy for himself.
I can't blame the shark, but I can blame the man and the drunk. God created man (and woman) uniquely different; he created us in his image. Because of that I can choose not to fall into temptation even when the temptation is the result of another's sin.
This is truth. But is that avoidance of temptation in accordance with, or contrary to, your nature?
By nature (in the flesh) man is pretty evil. Our nature draws us to the tempation instead of away from it.
This falls right back into the "don't cause your brother to sin" thing. If we know someone is an alcoholic we don't offer them a beer. If the ladies know how most men are (visual) they should really be more careful about wearing provocative clothing. (Which is what I take Terryjohn's point to be)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/21/2008 5:09:53 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: terryjohn
If you knowingly and willingly swim in a shark tank, can you blame the sharks for eating you? Can we blame sharks for being themselves? The one thing that confounds me is that some continually say men should be other than who they say he is. Smart people do not do stupid things.
Should a drunk man not be able to cross the freeway with out being hit? Maybe the drivers should be on the look out for him but he doesn't make it easy for himself.
I can't blame the shark, but I can blame the man and the drunk. God created man (and woman) uniquely different; he created us in his image. Because of that I can choose not to fall into temptation even when the temptation is the result of another's sin.
This is truth. But is that avoidance of temptation in accordance with, or contrary to, your nature?
By nature (in the flesh) man is pretty evil. Our nature draws us to the tempation instead of away from it.
This falls right back into the "don't cause your brother to sin" thing. If we know someone is an alcoholic we don't offer them a beer. If the ladies know how most men are (visual) they should really be more careful about wearing provocative clothing. (Which is what I take Terryjohn's point to be)
If you saw all of the trouble I received in the other thread, you would know that I agree with you. However, when either men or women try and blame the other for their sin they are wrong. Another persons sinful actions may make it easier or harder for us to not sin, but the responsibility for sin always falls on only our shoulders.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/21/2008 5:22:04 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 2997
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
he created us in his image. Because of that I can choose not to fall into temptation even when the temptation is the result of another's sin.
right out of the first chapter of James!! the wisest words I have read here thus far!!
it doesn't make it okay to dress scantily, and it doesn't make it okay for us to run around pointing fingers at all the probable lust. and to try and discern the heart's intentions of other person.
I think this is the verse:
Rom 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Rom 14:2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
only we are not talking about vegetables.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 11/21/2008 10:30:54 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8040
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
If you saw all of the trouble I received in the other thread, you would know that I agree with you.
I read some of thast thread. But by the time I had gotten there they were on page 15 and you had left the scene of battle. I would have dove in but the fight was already over (I'm reminded of the scene near the end of the ovie "Police Academy" where Tackleberry is crying because there was gunplay and he wasn't involvd)
quote:
However, when either men or women try and blame the other for their sin they are wrong. Another persons sinful actions may make it easier or harder for us to not sin, but the responsibility for sin always falls on only our shoulders.
I agree entirely. One person's sin does not exonerate the next person. But we do have a duty to God and our fellow man to at least try to avoid dragging them into sin.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 12/15/2008 1:07:47 AM
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pjclutterbuck
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Contrary to one of the early posts on this thread, I do believe that bikinis are almost always provocative, no matter where they are worn. For heaven's sake, a woman or girl dressed in only a bikini is practically naked anyway. And I don't see why going to a beach or swimming pool somehow puts people in a bubble where human nature is no longer sinful and people are no longer susceptible to lust. That argument won't wash with me. If you must go to the beach or poolside, please keep your midriff and your privates covered.
Since this seems to be the primary thread under He Says for this topic, I'll post a link to http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/ where guys were interviewed fairly comprehensively about what turns them on, as guidance for women and girls who need it. IMO it's the most accurate treatment of the topic I've ever seen.
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RE: Sexually Provocative clothing - 12/15/2008 4:59:38 AM
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Pman.
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A lady could go outside NAKED that doesn't mean she deserves to be "assaulted".
What I think is sexually provocative attire is mini skirts. blouses that doesn't "cover" every thing, and heck even bikinis. Think about if a female wore a bikini back in Jesus' time they would be stoned! Now a days it's acceptable just like sex as long as you use a condom. But just because it's acceptable does that make it morally right? ???
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